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Re: vim-cocoa 0.1 released

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  • foosh
    ... This is a great release. Thanks! ... My understanding is that there was talk of MacVim borrowing Vim- cocoa s rendering code, to possibly improve MV s
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 2, 2007
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      On Nov 2, 10:54 am, "Jjgod Jiang" <gzjj...@...> wrote:
      > vim-cocoa - vim GUI interface with Cocoahttp://code.google.com/p/vim-cocoa
      >
      > Release notes
      > =============
      >
      > vim-cocoa 0.1 is the first release with a version number, it brings
      > the following fixes and improvements.
      > ...

      This is a great release. Thanks!

      > anmar wrote:
      >This is super great. One thing can you please elaborate on is how
      >does Vim-cocoa and MacVim are related if any and is there a merge in
      >the works? I thought there were.

      My understanding is that there was talk of MacVim borrowing Vim-
      cocoa's rendering code, to possibly improve MV's rendering speed. As
      far as "merging" the two projects...what would that even look like?
      It seems to me the two projects have quite different design
      philosophies, and as Jiang said, they are not mutually exclusive --
      there is no reason one necessarily needs to be assimilated.
      Personally I like the "vimmishness" of vim-cocoa. It's small and fast
      and elegant. Others prefer MacVim. To each his or her respective
      own, I say. :)


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    • Jeremy Conlin
      ... That s an excellent question. I think it s wonderful that Vim on the Mac has been receiving great attention as of late. However, there is a bit too much
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 2, 2007
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        On 11/2/07, Tim Allen <thristian@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Nov 3, 2:54 am, "Jjgod Jiang" <gzjj...@...> wrote:
        > > vim-cocoa - vim GUI interface with Cocoa
        > > http://code.google.com/p/vim-cocoa
        >
        > So, who can guess which of these is MacVim, and which is vim-cocoa,
        > and how do you know?
        >
        > http://home.aanet.com.au/Screwtape/TheTwoVims.png

        That's an excellent question. I think it's wonderful that Vim on the
        Mac has been receiving great attention as of late. However, there is
        a bit too much Vim lovin' going around for me to keep everything
        straight.

        I have been using MacVim since it was announced. I also knew of
        vim-cocoa, but haven't tried it out (yet). There was also discussion
        a few weeks ago about merging the two and have the work be primarily
        on MacVim. If I recall correctly, MacVim was more mature, but
        vim-cocoa rendered the text faster. Right?

        So what is the current status? Will we continue to have two different
        versions for awhile or is the (partial) merging going to happen?

        In the meantime, I think I'll download vim-cocoa so I can try it out
        and see what it has to offer.

        Thanks again for the great work!
        Jeremy

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      • Tim Allen
        ... Going by the screenshot I posted, vim-cocoa s rendering is also less buggy. vim-cocoa also doesn t totally break when handed combining characters in
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 2, 2007
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          On Nov 3, 1:06 pm, "Jeremy Conlin" <jerem...@...> wrote:
          > I have been using MacVim since it was announced. I also knew of
          > vim-cocoa, but haven't tried it out (yet). There was also discussion
          > a few weeks ago about merging the two and have the work be primarily
          > on MacVim. If I recall correctly, MacVim was more mature, but
          > vim-cocoa rendered the text faster. Right?

          Going by the screenshot I posted, vim-cocoa's rendering is also less
          buggy. vim-cocoa also doesn't totally break when handed combining
          characters in filenames, but it doesn't get them right either: it just
          doesn't draw them at all.

          I expect there's a lot of scope for cross-pollination of ideas and
          techniques, even if the two stay as separate ports; I just wish I knew
          enough of the intricacies of Cocoa to help out.


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        • Jjgod Jiang
          Hi Jeremy and anmar,On 11/3/07, Jeremy Conlin wrote: So what is the current status? Will we continue to have two different versions
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 2, 2007
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            Hi Jeremy and anmar,

            On 11/3/07, Jeremy Conlin <jeremit0@...> wrote:
            > So what is the current status? Will we continue to have two different
            > versions for awhile or is the (partial) merging going to happen?

            I already started to investigate how to integrate the current rendering
            code of vim-cocoa into MacVim, but since MacVim implements more
            features than vim-cocoa, there could be some features involved with
            the text view which may not going to work after new code replaced the
            old one, so I think this integration is not going to be a one patch
            process, I wish Björn can create a branch on MacVim public repository
            so that I can push the changes to that branch and people in interest
            can fetch this branch and do some test before it actually going into
            the trunk.

            - Jiang

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          • Nico Weber
            ... Easy: The upper one is vim-cocoa. It s scrollbars look all weird :-P (well, and the text probably looks better, even if I can t read it). Nico
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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              > So, who can guess which of these is MacVim, and which is vim-cocoa,
              > and how do you know?
              >
              > http://home.aanet.com.au/Screwtape/TheTwoVims.png

              Easy: The upper one is vim-cocoa. It's scrollbars look all weird :-P
              (well, and the text probably looks better, even if I can't read it).

              Nico

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            • björn
              ... Instead of me handing out push access to the MacVim Git repo I think a better idea is that you create a fork of the MacVim repo. Simply go to
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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                On 03/11/2007, Jjgod Jiang <gzjjgod@...> wrote:
                > I already started to investigate how to integrate the current rendering
                > code of vim-cocoa into MacVim, but since MacVim implements more
                > features than vim-cocoa, there could be some features involved with
                > the text view which may not going to work after new code replaced the
                > old one, so I think this integration is not going to be a one patch
                > process, I wish Björn can create a branch on MacVim public repository
                > so that I can push the changes to that branch and people in interest
                > can fetch this branch and do some test before it actually going into
                > the trunk.

                Instead of me handing out push access to the MacVim Git repo I think a
                better idea is that you create a fork of the MacVim repo. Simply go
                to

                http://repo.or.cz/w/MacVim.git

                and click the "fork" link in the top-right of the window. That way I
                can pull from you and push to the MacVim repo as I see fit. Also,
                this way anybody who wants to check out your progress can simply pull
                from your fork. Does that sound ok to you?


                /Björn

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              • George V. Reilly
                The Vim.app in the tar.bz2 wouldn t open for me at all. I built vim-cocoa from the git repository. It runs, but I don t get any syntax highlighting. Instead, I
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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                  The Vim.app in the tar.bz2 wouldn't open for me at all.

                  I built vim-cocoa from the git repository. It runs, but I don't get
                  any syntax highlighting. Instead, I get
                  E484: Can't open file
                  /Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Contents/Resources/vim/syntax/syntax.vim.

                  Note: I haven't installed vim-cocoa. I just ran 'open Vim.app' from
                  the vim-cocoa/src directory.

                  By contrast, running 'open MacVim.app', everything works fine.

                  Intel 10.4.10, if that matters.
                  --
                  /George V. Reilly
                  http://www.georgevreilly.com/blog

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                • Jjgod Jiang
                  Hi George, ... Would you please execute the following commands ... and tell me the results? (for the last command, I would like to see the line contain
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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                    Hi George,

                    On 11/3/07, George V. Reilly <george@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The Vim.app in the tar.bz2 wouldn't open for me at all.
                    >
                    > I built vim-cocoa from the git repository. It runs, but I don't get
                    > any syntax highlighting. Instead, I get
                    > E484: Can't open file
                    > /Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Contents/Resources/vim/syntax/syntax.vim.

                    Would you please execute the following commands

                    :echo $VM
                    :echo $VIMRUNTIME
                    :ver

                    and tell me the results? (for the last command, I would like to see
                    the line contain
                    "fall-back for $VIM") that would be helpful for debugging this issue.

                    - Jiang

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                  • Jjgod Jiang
                    Hi Nico, ... I believe the issue you mentioned [1] has been fixed now. Thanks. About the `ugly scroll bar , I still cannot find an elegant solution to fix
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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                      Hi Nico,

                      On 11/3/07, Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...> wrote:
                      > Yay, a release :-) Looks very good so far. I found another minor
                      > scrollbar problem. I posted it to the issue tracker since you said you
                      > prefer that.

                      I believe the issue you mentioned [1] has been fixed now. Thanks.

                      About the `ugly scroll bar', I still cannot find an elegant solution
                      to fix that, I knew MacVim has a workaround for that problem, but that
                      workaround needs to check every existing scroll bars every time
                      gui_mch_set_scrollbar_pos() gets called, but gui_mch_set_scrollbar_pos()
                      really gets called very frequently, so I wish to make it as cheap as
                      possible.

                      - Jiang

                      [1] http://code.google.com/p/vim-cocoa/issues/detail?id=17

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                    • George V. Reilly
                      ... $VIM: /Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Resources/vim $VIMRUNTIME: /Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Resources/vim fall-back for $VIM:
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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                        On 11/3/07, Jjgod Jiang <gzjjgod@...> wrote:
                        > Would you please execute the following commands
                        >
                        > :echo $VM
                        > :echo $VIMRUNTIME
                        > :ver
                        >
                        > and tell me the results? (for the last command, I would like to see
                        > the line contain
                        > "fall-back for $VIM") that would be helpful for debugging this issue.

                        $VIM: /Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Resources/vim
                        $VIMRUNTIME: /Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Resources/vim
                        fall-back for $VIM: "/Applications/Vim.app/Contents/Resources/vim"

                        I'm not setting VIM explicitly, so Vim must be computing $VIM from its defaults.

                        /George

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                      • Nico Weber
                        ... Benji, could you give write access to someone to macvim.org? Panos, could you bring the wiki back up? We really need to post this somewhere on the web. In
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 3, 2007
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                          > This is super great. One thing can you please elaborate on is how
                          > does Vim-cocoa and MacVim are related if any and is there a merge in
                          > the works? I thought there were.

                          Benji, could you give write access to someone to macvim.org? Panos,
                          could you bring the wiki back up? We really need to post this
                          somewhere on the web.

                          In a nutshell: MacVim and vim-cocoa are both "better" than the old
                          carbon version (which is still the "official" port). They are
                          implemented in different ways, which mean that MacVim can have several
                          vim windows, but it's a bit slower. Furthermore, MacVim is a bit more
                          mature and has a few more features (toolbar, gui tabs, nicer font
                          selection, ...).

                          Nico

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                        • Jun T.
                          I ve tried vim-cocoa and it works great!. Especially good news to me is that it supports the inline input of CJK languages (on-the-spot style in X11 XIM
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 7, 2007
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                            I've tried vim-cocoa and it works great!.

                            Especially good news to me is that it supports the "inline input"
                            of CJK languages (on-the-spot style in X11 XIM terminology).

                            A bad news is that it doesn't fully control the Input Method,
                            i.e., the IM (such as Kotoeri) is still ON if I go to the normal mode
                            by hitting ESC. I must manually turn off the IM. If I go back to the
                            input mode I must turn it on again.

                            Carbon gvim doesn't support inline input (it uses a separate floating
                            window for IM), but it does support the full IM control if I apply
                            the atsui.patch (of Jigod Jiang himself); IM is automatically off if I
                            go to the normal mode, and automaticaly turned on again if I go back
                            to the input mode.

                            Are there any plan to support full IM control in vim-cocoa?

                            (MacVim uses "off-the-spot" style for IM and doesn't support full
                            IM control.)

                            Another minor problem is that the preedit area in the inline input
                            doesn't wrap to the next line. If the cursor is near the right end of
                            the window and if I start inputting Japanese by using IM, the preedit
                            area goes beyond the right end of the window but the region outside
                            the window is not displayed; this makes it impossible to see what I'm
                            typing now.

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                          • Jjgod Jiang
                            Hi Jun, ... I m aware of that, but vim-cocoa and carbon vim control the IM status in different levels, maybe they have different capabilities, but I m not
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 11, 2007
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                              Hi Jun,

                              On Nov 7, 2007 4:34 PM, Jun T. <takimoto-j@...> wrote:
                              > A bad news is that it doesn't fully control the Input Method,
                              > i.e., the IM (such as Kotoeri) is still ON if I go to the normal mode
                              > by hitting ESC. I must manually turn off the IM. If I go back to the
                              > input mode I must turn it on again.
                              >
                              > Carbon gvim doesn't support inline input (it uses a separate floating
                              > window for IM), but it does support the full IM control if I apply
                              > the atsui.patch (of Jigod Jiang himself); IM is automatically off if I
                              > go to the normal mode, and automaticaly turned on again if I go back
                              > to the input mode.

                              I'm aware of that, but vim-cocoa and carbon vim control the IM status in
                              different levels, maybe they have different capabilities, but I'm not sure.
                              It's still a problem to investigate, but I just don't have time to do so
                              recently.

                              > Another minor problem is that the preedit area in the inline input
                              > doesn't wrap to the next line. If the cursor is near the right end of
                              > the window and if I start inputting Japanese by using IM, the preedit
                              > area goes beyond the right end of the window but the region outside
                              > the window is not displayed; this makes it impossible to see what I'm
                              > typing now.

                              Thanks for pointing that out, it's a bug of course, I'll fix that in the next
                              release.

                              - Jiang

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                            • Kazuki Sakamoto
                              Hi, ... The attached patch will enable to control the IM in vim-cocoa. It uses carbon API, because cocoa API can t get the IM status as far as I know. And, I m
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 12, 2007
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                                Hi,

                                On Nov 12, 2007 2:15 PM, Jjgod Jiang <gzjjgod@...> wrote:
                                > > A bad news is that it doesn't fully control the Input Method,
                                > > i.e., the IM (such as Kotoeri) is still ON if I go to the normal mode
                                > > by hitting ESC. I must manually turn off the IM. If I go back to the
                                > > input mode I must turn it on again.
                                > I'm aware of that, but vim-cocoa and carbon vim control the IM status in
                                > different levels, maybe they have different capabilities, but I'm not sure.
                                > It's still a problem to investigate, but I just don't have time to do so
                                > recently.

                                The attached patch will enable to control the IM in vim-cocoa.
                                It uses carbon API, because cocoa API can't get the IM status
                                as far as I know.

                                And, I'm not sure I can use KeyScript(smKeyRoman) to enable the IM,
                                'Roman' is Japanese input method, but carbon vim use this code.

                                Also GetScriptManagerVariable() is deprecated in Leopard(Mac OS X v10.5),
                                use TISCopyCurrentKeyboardInputSource, TISSelectInputSource, and so on.

                                http://developer.apple.com/documentation/TextFonts/Reference/TextInputSourcesReference/index.html

                                sakamoto

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                              • Jun T.
                                Thank you for the patch. (I needed to add -framework Carbon when linking.) ... KeyScript() is called as KeyScript(active ? smKeySysScript : smKeyRoman); so I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 13, 2007
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                                  Thank you for the patch.
                                  (I needed to add "-framework Carbon" when linking.)

                                  >I'm not sure I can use KeyScript(smKeyRoman) to enable the IM,
                                  >'Roman' is Japanese input method, but carbon vim use this code.

                                  KeyScript() is called as
                                  KeyScript(active ? smKeySysScript : smKeyRoman);
                                  so I think smKeySysScript is Japanease (on a Japanease sytem),
                                  and smKeyRoman is Roman.

                                  BTW, does anybody know whether there are any benefits if an app
                                  is "pure Cocoa"? Or is it OK to occasionally use Carbon API in
                                  Cocoa apps?


                                  PS
                                  Sakamoto-san, I knew you were maintaining a private port file
                                  of vim for MacPorts, but I didn't know it has already supported
                                  vim-cocoa.

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                                • Nico Weber
                                  ... As far as I know the main argument for cocoa (besides being more buzzword compliant :-P) is that apple is not porting the gui part of carbon to 64 bit, and
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 13, 2007
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                                    > BTW, does anybody know whether there are any benefits if an app
                                    > is "pure Cocoa"? Or is it OK to occasionally use Carbon API in
                                    > Cocoa apps?

                                    As far as I know the main argument for cocoa (besides being more
                                    buzzword compliant :-P) is that apple is not porting the gui part of
                                    carbon to 64 bit, and is encouraging use of cocoa in general. Using
                                    carbon for non-gui stuff is fine, but if there's a cocoa api as well
                                    as a carbon api, using the cocoa api is more future-proof i guess (if
                                    there's no cocoa api yet, you don't have much choice, though).

                                    Nico

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                                  • Tim Allen
                                    ... I recently watched a Google Tech Talk given by the lead programmer of VMware Fusion for OS X[1] and while he did talk about VMware Fusion, he also spent a
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 13, 2007
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                                      On Nov 13, 8:06 pm, "Jun T." <takimot...@...> wrote:
                                      > BTW, does anybody know whether there are any benefits if an app
                                      > is "pure Cocoa"? Or is it OK to occasionally use Carbon API in
                                      > Cocoa apps?

                                      I recently watched a Google Tech Talk given by the lead programmer of
                                      VMware Fusion for OS X[1] and while he did talk about VMware Fusion,
                                      he also spent a good chunk of time complaining that any non-trivial
                                      Mac application is pretty much required to use at least Carbon and
                                      Cocoa to work, if not BSD/Mach and kernel hooks as well. A "pure
                                      Cocoa" app probably has the advantage of not having to deal with three
                                      or four different file APIs or graphics APIs, but if you can deal with
                                      the complexity of the code and you need a feature that's only exposed
                                      via Carbon or BSD, feel free.

                                      [1] http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2007/10/google-tech-tal.html


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                                    • Jjgod Jiang
                                      Hi, ... Thanks a lot! I ll try to figure out a solution suitable for both pre-10.5 and 10.5 systems. - Jiang
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 14, 2007
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                                        Hi,

                                        On 11/12/07, Kazuki Sakamoto <sakamoto.kazuki@...> wrote:
                                        > Hi,
                                        >
                                        > The attached patch will enable to control the IM in vim-cocoa.
                                        > It uses carbon API, because cocoa API can't get the IM status
                                        > as far as I know.
                                        >
                                        > And, I'm not sure I can use KeyScript(smKeyRoman) to enable the IM,
                                        > 'Roman' is Japanese input method, but carbon vim use this code.
                                        >
                                        > Also GetScriptManagerVariable() is deprecated in Leopard(Mac OS X v10.5),
                                        > use TISCopyCurrentKeyboardInputSource, TISSelectInputSource, and so on.
                                        >
                                        > http://developer.apple.com/documentation/TextFonts/Reference/TextInputSourcesReference/index.html

                                        Thanks a lot! I'll try to figure out a solution suitable for both
                                        pre-10.5 and 10.5
                                        systems.

                                        - Jiang

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