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Re: MacVim

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  • björn
    ... The patch revision discrepancy is to be expected. I only update the patch when the Vim source code changes and not when the MacVim code changes, hence
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 3, 2007
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      > I had a quick look at the MacVim patch. I can see you have version r300
      > available for download, but the patch is for r296. I only looked at the
      > patch. Just some random remarks.

      The patch revision discrepancy is to be expected. I only update the
      patch when the Vim source code changes and not when the MacVim code
      changes, hence MacVim is usually several revisions "ahead" of the
      patch.


      > Overal it looks very good. You keep the Vim coding style, change the
      > docs, use #ifdefs, etc. It can probably be included in the main Vim
      > sources some day.

      Good. I know off by heart that the code in menu.c is a bit messy, but
      otherwise I think it should be ok. I have no particular code style
      preference (I have tried to emulate the Vim style), so if there is
      something (no matter how small) that you don't like, just tell me and
      I'll change it.


      > I think you should include src/auto/configure in the patch. Not
      > everybody has autoconf installed.

      Are you sure? I think autoconf comes with the developer tools. Maybe
      somebody else on this list knows? All I can say is that I haven't, to
      my knowledge, installed any extra tools (but I may well have, since I
      installed the dev tools almost 2 years ago).


      > It would be nice if every new file has a short comment about what the
      > file contains.

      Sure, I'll add that.


      > The new ":action" command sounds very generic, but it's only used for
      > the Mac. Perhaps ":macaction" would be a better name. I guess it will
      > mostly be used in mappings, thus having a clear name is more important
      > than having a short name.

      Yes, it does sound very general. I don't mind adding "mac" in front
      of the mac specific commands since I don't think any of them will need
      to be short (i.e. they are only used in vimrc/gvimrc). ":macaction"
      is fine by me.


      > ":menukeyequiv" is a strange name...

      Yes, I agree. The point of the command is to set the "key equivalent"
      of a "menu item" so I wanted a bit of both in there. I noticed that
      most commands are quite short so I did not want to go overboard and
      call it ":menuitemkeyequivalent" or something like that. Maybe, the
      command should also start with "mac"? How about ":mackeyequivalent",
      or ":macmenumap"? Any other suggestions?


      > You mention somewhere that it only works on OS/X 10.4. What stops it
      > from working on 10.2 and 10.3? We make a universal binary so that
      > people don't have to worry about using an Intel or PPC processor. But
      > they do need to worry about the minor version of the OS? That's not
      > nice.

      With 10.4 Apple updated the APIs quite extensively and since this was
      a new project I didn't really consider supporting legacy APIs. I also
      saw some figures on how Mac users are quite quick to update their OS
      (don't remember the reference), so I figured there would be not much
      point going for 10.3 or older since there already is the Carbon
      version for people with 10.3 or less (and pre-OS X for those crazy
      folks).

      It would be insanity to try to make the current code 10.3 friendly
      because the text related APIs just work too differently (and some of
      the things I do cannot be done with the legacy APIs). However, once
      Jiang gets his rendering code in there I can scrap all of that and
      then it might be possible to support pre-10.4 (unless he also uses
      10.4 APIs...?).


      > In the feature list you added "gui_macvim". That's not a great name,
      > since everything here is "vim". Something with Cocoa in it would
      > probably be more appropriate. Same for using "MACVIMGUI" in the
      > Makefile. I think you could use "COCOAGUI".

      I guess I can refer to MacVim as "gui_cocoa" in the docs instead of
      gui_macvim. In fact, since there is not very much documentation
      regarding the Carbon version I could just call it "gui_mac" and where
      there is Carbon related documentation I'll make that clear (we are
      retiring that version anyway, right?). I think Jiang already uses
      COCOAGUI and FEAT_GUI_COCOA in the makefile and source code though, so
      that would create a conflict.


      /Björn

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    • Nico Weber
      ... Reference: http://update.omnigroup.com/ (naturally, they only count people using their software, but...) ... Since MacVim is known as MacVim and vim-cocoa
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 3, 2007
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        > With 10.4 Apple updated the APIs quite extensively and since this was
        > a new project I didn't really consider supporting legacy APIs. I also
        > saw some figures on how Mac users are quite quick to update their OS
        > (don't remember the reference),

        Reference: http://update.omnigroup.com/ (naturally, they only count
        people using their software, but...)

        >> In the feature list you added "gui_macvim". That's not a great name,
        >> since everything here is "vim". Something with Cocoa in it would
        >> probably be more appropriate. Same for using "MACVIMGUI" in the
        >> Makefile. I think you could use "COCOAGUI".
        >
        > I guess I can refer to MacVim as "gui_cocoa" in the docs instead of
        > gui_macvim. In fact, since there is not very much documentation
        > regarding the Carbon version I could just call it "gui_mac" and where
        > there is Carbon related documentation I'll make that clear (we are
        > retiring that version anyway, right?). I think Jiang already uses
        > COCOAGUI and FEAT_GUI_COCOA in the makefile and source code though, so
        > that would create a conflict.

        Since MacVim is known as MacVim and vim-cocoa as vim-cocoa, I think
        gui_macvim is the least confusing name, even if it's a bit redundant.

        Nico


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      • Bram Moolenaar
        Björn - Thanks for considering my remarks. ... How about :macmenukey ? I haven t looked into what it does exactly... ... I always like to support as many OS
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 3, 2007
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          Björn -

          Thanks for considering my remarks.

          > > I had a quick look at the MacVim patch. I can see you have version r300
          > > available for download, but the patch is for r296. I only looked at the
          > > patch. Just some random remarks.
          >
          > The patch revision discrepancy is to be expected. I only update the
          > patch when the Vim source code changes and not when the MacVim code
          > changes, hence MacVim is usually several revisions "ahead" of the
          > patch.
          >
          >
          > > Overal it looks very good. You keep the Vim coding style, change the
          > > docs, use #ifdefs, etc. It can probably be included in the main Vim
          > > sources some day.
          >
          > Good. I know off by heart that the code in menu.c is a bit messy, but
          > otherwise I think it should be ok. I have no particular code style
          > preference (I have tried to emulate the Vim style), so if there is
          > something (no matter how small) that you don't like, just tell me and
          > I'll change it.
          >
          >
          > > I think you should include src/auto/configure in the patch. Not
          > > everybody has autoconf installed.
          >
          > Are you sure? I think autoconf comes with the developer tools. Maybe
          > somebody else on this list knows? All I can say is that I haven't, to
          > my knowledge, installed any extra tools (but I may well have, since I
          > installed the dev tools almost 2 years ago).
          >
          >
          > > It would be nice if every new file has a short comment about what the
          > > file contains.
          >
          > Sure, I'll add that.
          >
          >
          > > The new ":action" command sounds very generic, but it's only used for
          > > the Mac. Perhaps ":macaction" would be a better name. I guess it will
          > > mostly be used in mappings, thus having a clear name is more important
          > > than having a short name.
          >
          > Yes, it does sound very general. I don't mind adding "mac" in front
          > of the mac specific commands since I don't think any of them will need
          > to be short (i.e. they are only used in vimrc/gvimrc). ":macaction"
          > is fine by me.
          >
          >
          > > ":menukeyequiv" is a strange name...
          >
          > Yes, I agree. The point of the command is to set the "key equivalent"
          > of a "menu item" so I wanted a bit of both in there. I noticed that
          > most commands are quite short so I did not want to go overboard and
          > call it ":menuitemkeyequivalent" or something like that. Maybe, the
          > command should also start with "mac"? How about ":mackeyequivalent",
          > or ":macmenumap"? Any other suggestions?

          How about ":macmenukey"? I haven't looked into what it does exactly...

          > > You mention somewhere that it only works on OS/X 10.4. What stops it
          > > from working on 10.2 and 10.3? We make a universal binary so that
          > > people don't have to worry about using an Intel or PPC processor. But
          > > they do need to worry about the minor version of the OS? That's not
          > > nice.
          >
          > With 10.4 Apple updated the APIs quite extensively and since this was
          > a new project I didn't really consider supporting legacy APIs. I also
          > saw some figures on how Mac users are quite quick to update their OS
          > (don't remember the reference), so I figured there would be not much
          > point going for 10.3 or older since there already is the Carbon
          > version for people with 10.3 or less (and pre-OS X for those crazy
          > folks).
          >
          > It would be insanity to try to make the current code 10.3 friendly
          > because the text related APIs just work too differently (and some of
          > the things I do cannot be done with the legacy APIs). However, once
          > Jiang gets his rendering code in there I can scrap all of that and
          > then it might be possible to support pre-10.4 (unless he also uses
          > 10.4 APIs...?).

          I always like to support as many OS versions as possible, but since the
          Mac GUI libraries are directly connected to the OS version this is
          tough. We can tell users of 10.2 and 10.3 to use the old carbon
          version. It mostly works.

          > > In the feature list you added "gui_macvim". That's not a great name,
          > > since everything here is "vim". Something with Cocoa in it would
          > > probably be more appropriate. Same for using "MACVIMGUI" in the
          > > Makefile. I think you could use "COCOAGUI".
          >
          > I guess I can refer to MacVim as "gui_cocoa" in the docs instead of
          > gui_macvim. In fact, since there is not very much documentation
          > regarding the Carbon version I could just call it "gui_mac" and where
          > there is Carbon related documentation I'll make that clear (we are
          > retiring that version anyway, right?). I think Jiang already uses
          > COCOAGUI and FEAT_GUI_COCOA in the makefile and source code though, so
          > that would create a conflict.

          Yes, there might be some confusion. We do have the old carbon
          implementation, I'm not sure when it will go away. So at least using
          something with "cocoa" would be good.

          I think we intend to merge your work and Jiang's, thus conflicts between
          these only exist while merging. This will disappear after the merging.

          --
          BEDEVERE: And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
          "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD

          /// Bram Moolenaar -- Bram@... -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
          /// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
          \\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
          \\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

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        • Tim Allen
          ... Unlike Win32, Cocoa doesn t blindly display whatever appears after t as the right-hand column of a menu. I m guessing that you need to specifically tell
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 3, 2007
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            > > > ":menukeyequiv" is a strange name...
            >
            > > Yes, I agree. The point of the command is to set the "key equivalent"
            > > of a "menu item" so I wanted a bit of both in there. I noticed that
            > > most commands are quite short so I did not want to go overboard and
            > > call it ":menuitemkeyequivalent" or something like that. Maybe, the
            > > command should also start with "mac"? How about ":mackeyequivalent",
            > > or ":macmenumap"? Any other suggestions?
            >
            > How about ":macmenukey"? I haven't looked into what it does exactly...

            Unlike Win32, Cocoa doesn't blindly display whatever appears after \t
            as the right-hand column of a menu. I'm guessing that you need to
            specifically tell Cocoa that a particular key-sequence triggers a
            particular menu-item, and then you'll get 'menu-item selected' events
            whenever the user presses those keys.

            So :menukeyequiv is a feature which every other Vim port emulates with
            "\t" in menu-text and a bunch of regular mappings.

            It would be neat if MacVim could figure out menu key equivalents for
            itself without being explicitly told (say, if File.Open is mapped to
            ":browse e<CR>" and <D-o> is mapped to ":browse e<CR>", then File.Open
            should have key-equivalent <D-o>), but that would be substantial extra
            magic for Björn to implement.


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          • georgeharker@googlemail.com
            For what it s worth, I totally cocur on the 10.4 vs earlier oses issue. Most mac users update very regularly. 10.5 is out this month anway. Cheers George
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 4, 2007
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              For what it's worth, I totally cocur on the 10.4 vs earlier oses
              issue. Most mac users update very regularly. 10.5 is out this month
              anway.

              Cheers

              George


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            • zoul
              ... Make it :maction , pretty please... :-) T. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the vim_mac maillist.
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2007
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                > Yes, it does sound very general. I don't mind adding "mac" in front
                > of the mac specific commands since I don't think any of them will need
                > to be short (i.e. they are only used in vimrc/gvimrc). ":macaction"
                > is fine by me.

                Make it ":maction", pretty please... :-)

                T.


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              • björn
                ... I will go with :macaction and :macmenukey for clarity. You should be able to type :maca instead of :macaction once the name has changed (in case
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                  > > Yes, it does sound very general. I don't mind adding "mac" in front
                  > > of the mac specific commands since I don't think any of them will need
                  > > to be short (i.e. they are only used in vimrc/gvimrc). ":macaction"
                  > > is fine by me.
                  >
                  > Make it ":maction", pretty please... :-)

                  I will go with ":macaction" and ":macmenukey" for clarity. You should
                  be able to type ":maca" instead of ":macaction" once the name has
                  changed (in case you find the new name too long).

                  Tim's suggestion on checking keys that are bound to the same thing as
                  menu items seems a little bit far-fetched to me...still, an
                  interesting idea. :)


                  /Björn

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                • neosun
                  Hi all, why is MacVim a own project and not a patch to the original vim source tree? I think it is better to replace the old carbon code in vim source tree
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                    Hi all,

                    why is MacVim a own project and not a patch to the original vim source
                    tree?

                    I think it is better to replace the old carbon code in vim source tree
                    (not 64-Bit ready), instead of make a own vim application. Has Bram
                    Moolenaar a problem with the direct integration of this cocoa based
                    vim code?
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                  • Nico Weber
                    Hi, ... Because this way it s easier to maintain. When MacVim started, it was distributed as a patch to vim (choose Deprecated Files on MacVim s downloads
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                      Hi,

                      > why is MacVim a own project and not a patch to the original vim source
                      > tree?

                      Because this way it's easier to maintain. When MacVim started, it was
                      distributed as a patch to vim (choose "Deprecated Files" on MacVim's
                      downloads page), but this was inconvenient to handle once more than
                      one person started working on the project.

                      > I think it is better to replace the old carbon code in vim source tree
                      > (not 64-Bit ready), instead of make a own vim application. Has Bram
                      > Moolenaar a problem with the direct integration of this cocoa based
                      > vim code?

                      there are (were?) several approaches to make the original vim more
                      modern: First, MacVim, written by Bjorn Winckler, which starts a
                      separate gui-less vim process per window and has the UI in a separate
                      process -- thus MacVim is able to display several vim windows. Second,
                      vim-cocoa, written by Jigod Jiang as Summer of Code project, which is
                      a "normal" gui for vim written in cocoa. It uses only one process for
                      vim and UI (thus it can display only one window)). Bram wanted to wait
                      and see which approach works better.

                      In general, MacVim is more convenient to use and more actively
                      maintained (or, at least, more publicly), but vim-cocoa is a bit
                      faster and people say it has better Unicode display capabilities (for
                      what my needs, MacVim handles Unicode just fine though).

                      Jigod started porting vim-cocoas text renderer to MacVim as far as I
                      know. But since he seems to prefer coding to writing mails
                      (admirable!), I don't know how far he's come.

                      HTH,
                      Nico

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                    • Adam Mercer
                      ... Also, due to the way the git repo is structured it is fairly trivial to create a patch against the mainline vim source if required. Cheers Adam
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                        On Feb 9, 2008 11:45 AM, Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...> wrote:

                        > > why is MacVim a own project and not a patch to the original vim source
                        > > tree?
                        >
                        > Because this way it's easier to maintain. When MacVim started, it was
                        > distributed as a patch to vim (choose "Deprecated Files" on MacVim's
                        > downloads page), but this was inconvenient to handle once more than
                        > one person started working on the project.

                        Also, due to the way the git repo is structured it is fairly trivial
                        to create a patch against the mainline vim source if required.

                        Cheers

                        Adam

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                      • neosun
                        Thanks for the information. I think carbon is dead. I hope MacVim will be the standard vim on osx. Little question. How can I pipe the scrolling speed on
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                          Thanks for the information. I think carbon is dead. I hope MacVim will
                          be the standard vim on osx.
                          Little question. How can I pipe the scrolling speed on MacVim? Under
                          linux it is extremly faster as on osx.

                          P.S. The macvim icon is horrible ;-).
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                        • Nico Weber
                          Hi, ... Do you mean redraw time or number of lines scrolled per mouse wheel rotation? (or number of lines moved with cmd-f or …)? ... Wrong :-) Nico
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                            Hi,

                            > Little question. How can I pipe the scrolling speed on MacVim? Under
                            > linux it is extremly faster as on osx.

                            Do you mean redraw time or number of lines scrolled per mouse wheel
                            rotation? (or number of lines moved with cmd-f or …)?

                            > P.S. The macvim icon is horrible ;-).

                            Wrong :-)

                            Nico


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                          • neosun
                            Hi, I mean scrolling down with the arrow key. ... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the vim_mac maillist.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                              Hi,

                              I mean scrolling down with the arrow key.

                              On Feb 9, 6:30 pm, Nico Weber <nicolaswe...@...> wrote:
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > > Little question. How can I pipe the scrolling speed on MacVim? Under
                              > > linux it is extremly faster as on osx.
                              >
                              > Do you mean redraw time or number of lines scrolled per mouse wheel
                              > rotation? (or number of lines moved with cmd-f or ...)?
                              >
                              > > P.S. The macvim icon is horrible ;-).
                              >
                              > Wrong :-)
                              >
                              > Nico
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                            • Nico Weber
                              ... Perhaps you want to set scrolloff to a higher number? --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the vim_mac
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                                > I mean scrolling down with the arrow key.

                                Perhaps you want to set 'scrolloff' to a higher number?

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                              • Matt Tolton
                                Don t you mean scrolljump ? ... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the vim_mac maillist. For more
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 9, 2008
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                                  Don't you mean 'scrolljump'?

                                  On Feb 9, 2008 2:20 PM, Nico Weber <nicolasweber@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I mean scrolling down with the arrow key.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps you want to set 'scrolloff' to a higher number?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >

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                                • neosun
                                  I ve changed the value scrolloff. May be I see no change. ... --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message from the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 10, 2008
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                                    I've changed the value scrolloff. May be I see no change.

                                    On Feb 9, 10:53 pm, "Matt Tolton" <m...@...> wrote:
                                    > Don't you mean 'scrolljump'?
                                    >
                                    > On Feb 9, 2008 2:20 PM, Nico Weber <nicolaswe...@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > > I mean scrolling down with the arrow key.
                                    >
                                    > > Perhaps you want to set 'scrolloff' to a higher number?
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                                  • Nico Weber
                                    ... Matt is right, you really want to change scrolljump (but changing scrolloff should result in some visible change too). Nico
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 10, 2008
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                                      > I've changed the value scrolloff. May be I see no change.
                                      >
                                      >> Don't you mean 'scrolljump'?
                                      >>

                                      Matt is right, you really want to change 'scrolljump' (but changing
                                      'scrolloff' should result in some visible change too).

                                      Nico

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