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Re: vim for OS X/Intel?

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  • Benji Fisher
    ... The list of credits at http://macvim.org/OSX/index.php#Credits may be a little out of date, but this part is still correct: This site, including some of
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 12, 2006
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      On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:04:39AM +1100, Tom Birch wrote:
      > I've got a DTK (the developer machine, not a new one announced
      > yesterday), it doesn't compile now because of dependency on
      > quickdraw, which hasn't been ported to intel, so i guess the first
      > job is to get rid of that, if you send me stuff i'll be happy to
      > spend some time compiling/debugging but unfortunately I can't give
      > you an account as that would involve giving you access to our login
      > server
      >
      > cheers,
      > Tom

      The list of credits at http://macvim.org/OSX/index.php#Credits may
      be a little out of date, but this part is still correct:

      This site, including some of the binaries here, is maintained by
      Benji Fisher. That is all I do: I am not competent to program
      for the Mac,

      In other words, someone else has to get the code to the point where
      "make" will work; I can take it from there. Perhaps I should repeat:

      Help!

      On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 02:06:25PM +0100, Trenton Schulz wrote:
      >
      > Apple has posted a tech note that should be relevant:
      >
      > http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2005/tn2137.html

      Thanks, that looks like a good place to start. I can handle adding
      a few options to CFLAGS and LDFLAGS. I have not tried it yet, but if I
      understand Tom correctly, it will not work without some changes to the
      code first.

      > Otherwise, I don't think the current Project Builder file included
      > with vim works anymore. I toyed with the idea of trying to make an
      > Xcode-based one (if only for getting a PCH and stuff) but quickly
      > abandoned it. Besides the editor in Xcode is so sub-par compared to
      > vim (and the vi integration leaves a lot to be desired) why would you
      > want to use it? :)
      >
      > Good luck,
      >
      > -- Trenton

      The only reason I considered using Xcode is that it might be the
      easiest way to cross-compile, or create a "universal" binary.

      --Benji Fisher
    • Trenton Schulz
      ... I would give it a shot at first. QuickDraw is certainly deprecated, but I find it hard to believe that they removed it from the Intel Mac s. They would
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 13, 2006
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        On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:12 AM, Benji Fisher wrote:

        > On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:04:39AM +1100, Tom Birch wrote:
        >> I've got a DTK (the developer machine, not a new one announced
        >> yesterday), it doesn't compile now because of dependency on
        >> quickdraw, which hasn't been ported to intel, so i guess the first
        >> job is to get rid of that, if you send me stuff i'll be happy to
        >> spend some time compiling/debugging but unfortunately I can't give
        >> you an account as that would involve giving you access to our login
        >> server
        >>
        >> cheers,
        >> Tom
        >
        > The list of credits at http://macvim.org/OSX/index.php#Credits
        > may
        > be a little out of date, but this part is still correct:
        >
        > This site, including some of the binaries here, is maintained by
        > Benji Fisher. That is all I do: I am not competent to program
        > for the Mac,
        >
        > In other words, someone else has to get the code to the point where
        > "make" will work; I can take it from there. Perhaps I should repeat:
        >
        > Help!
        >
        > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 02:06:25PM +0100, Trenton Schulz wrote:
        >>
        >> Apple has posted a tech note that should be relevant:
        >>
        >> http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2005/tn2137.html
        >
        > Thanks, that looks like a good place to start. I can handle
        > adding
        > a few options to CFLAGS and LDFLAGS. I have not tried it yet, but
        > if I
        > understand Tom correctly, it will not work without some changes to the
        > code first.

        I would give it a shot at first. QuickDraw is certainly deprecated,
        but I find it hard to believe that they removed it from the Intel
        Mac's. They would need to have it working for Rosetta at least. And I
        can't believe that Apple would be so arrogant to remove the library
        in a minor OS release.


        >
        >> Otherwise, I don't think the current Project Builder file included
        >> with vim works anymore. I toyed with the idea of trying to make an
        >> Xcode-based one (if only for getting a PCH and stuff) but quickly
        >> abandoned it. Besides the editor in Xcode is so sub-par compared to
        >> vim (and the vi integration leaves a lot to be desired) why would you
        >> want to use it? :)
        >>
        >> Good luck,
        >>
        >> -- Trenton
        >
        > The only reason I considered using Xcode is that it might be the
        > easiest way to cross-compile, or create a "universal" binary.

        Everything that Xcode does can be done on the command line (well, OK,
        most of it). I'd try what's suggested in the tech note. If things
        don't work, then there would be an estimation as to how much work is
        needed to get further.

        Bien Suerte!

        -- Trenton
      • Stephen Riehm
        Hi guys, Benji, before I go too far, I have to say that i have a: never written any carbon code and b: don t know my way around the vim code. But before my
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 13, 2006
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          Hi guys, Benji,

          before I go too far, I have to say that i have a: never written any
          carbon code and b: don't know my way around the vim code.

          But before my beloved vim becomes obsolete, I'll stand up and fight
          with the best of them :-)

          So on the positive side, I can offer two G4's - one in a powerbook
          and one in a mac mini - and a whole lot of unix/C/perl/make experience.

          I too think that an xcode project would be the way to go - anyone who
          wants to compile anything on a mac has to install the developer
          package anyway, so then it's just a matter of click and go.

          Since I'm so 'out of it' I'd appreciate some starting pointers (I'll
          look through the technote you provided) and it'd be good if there was
          someone prepared to test whatever I produce. Even better would be if
          there were more than one of us doing the dirty work :-)

          So to sum up, count me in, but I'd be happier if a mac/vim aficionado
          was standing by.

          Cheers,

          Steve


          On 13.01.2006, at 09:59, Trenton Schulz wrote:

          >
          > On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:12 AM, Benji Fisher wrote:
          >
          >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:04:39AM +1100, Tom Birch wrote:
          >>> I've got a DTK (the developer machine, not a new one announced
          >>> yesterday), it doesn't compile now because of dependency on
          >>> quickdraw, which hasn't been ported to intel, so i guess the first
          >>> job is to get rid of that, if you send me stuff i'll be happy to
          >>> spend some time compiling/debugging but unfortunately I can't give
          >>> you an account as that would involve giving you access to our login
          >>> server
          >>>
          >>> cheers,
          >>> Tom
          >>
          >> The list of credits at http://macvim.org/OSX/
          >> index.php#Credits may
          >> be a little out of date, but this part is still correct:
          >>
          >> This site, including some of the binaries here, is maintained by
          >> Benji Fisher. That is all I do: I am not competent to program
          >> for the Mac,
          >>
          >> In other words, someone else has to get the code to the point where
          >> "make" will work; I can take it from there. Perhaps I should repeat:
          >>
          >> Help!
          >>
          >> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 02:06:25PM +0100, Trenton Schulz wrote:
          >>>
          >>> Apple has posted a tech note that should be relevant:
          >>>
          >>> http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2005/tn2137.html
          >>
          >> Thanks, that looks like a good place to start. I can handle
          >> adding
          >> a few options to CFLAGS and LDFLAGS. I have not tried it yet, but
          >> if I
          >> understand Tom correctly, it will not work without some changes to
          >> the
          >> code first.
          >
          > I would give it a shot at first. QuickDraw is certainly deprecated,
          > but I find it hard to believe that they removed it from the Intel
          > Mac's. They would need to have it working for Rosetta at least. And
          > I can't believe that Apple would be so arrogant to remove the
          > library in a minor OS release.
          >
          >
          >>
          >>> Otherwise, I don't think the current Project Builder file included
          >>> with vim works anymore. I toyed with the idea of trying to make an
          >>> Xcode-based one (if only for getting a PCH and stuff) but quickly
          >>> abandoned it. Besides the editor in Xcode is so sub-par compared to
          >>> vim (and the vi integration leaves a lot to be desired) why would
          >>> you
          >>> want to use it? :)
          >>>
          >>> Good luck,
          >>>
          >>> -- Trenton
          >>
          >> The only reason I considered using Xcode is that it might be the
          >> easiest way to cross-compile, or create a "universal" binary.
          >
          > Everything that Xcode does can be done on the command line (well,
          > OK, most of it). I'd try what's suggested in the tech note. If
          > things don't work, then there would be an estimation as to how much
          > work is needed to get further.
          >
          > Bien Suerte!
          >
          > -- Trenton
          >

          Steve
        • Benji Fisher
          ... Hi, Steve. ... I do not think there is any danger of that. Unless autoconf is seriously broken on OS X/Intel, anyone who owns one of the new machines
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 16, 2006
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            On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 07:09:00PM +0100, Stephen Riehm wrote:
            > Hi guys, Benji,

            Hi, Steve.

            > before I go too far, I have to say that i have a: never written any
            > carbon code and b: don't know my way around the vim code.
            >
            > But before my beloved vim becomes obsolete, I'll stand up and fight
            > with the best of them :-)

            I do not think there is any danger of that. Unless autoconf is
            seriously broken on OS X/Intel, anyone who owns one of the new machines
            should be able to compile vim on it. (One thing that worries me is that
            there may be places in the code where #ifdef's are used to deal with
            big-endian vs. little-endian architectures, and that may have to be
            changed.) The only issue I see is how soon we will be able to provide
            ready-to-run binaries for those who prefer not to compile for
            themselves. (My wife is already talking about replacing our PowerBook
            G4, but we will probably wait for the price to come down and maybe OS X
            10.5.1 or so, so I do not expect to be the first on this list with an
            Intel Mac.)

            > So on the positive side, I can offer two G4's - one in a powerbook
            > and one in a mac mini - and a whole lot of unix/C/perl/make experience.
            >
            > I too think that an xcode project would be the way to go - anyone who
            > wants to compile anything on a mac has to install the developer
            > package anyway, so then it's just a matter of click and go.

            I am not sure that Xcode is the way to go, but maybe it is. Anyone
            who installs the developer package also has gcc, make, and autoconf as
            well. If you do work on getting Xcode to work, please give instructions
            for command-line (non-GUI) compilation using Xcode. I, for one, like
            being able to automate the process, so I am not interested in GUI
            compilation.

            > Since I'm so 'out of it' I'd appreciate some starting pointers (I'll
            > look through the technote you provided) and it'd be good if there was
            > someone prepared to test whatever I produce. Even better would be if
            > there were more than one of us doing the dirty work :-)

            If you want to work on Xcode, there are two steps: converting to
            Xcode and then compiling for Intel. Plenty of us can help test the
            first step; we can worry about testing Step 2 once Step 1 is working.

            The structure is already in place for Project Builder. It should
            be possible to convert that to Xcode; look into the Apple docs for how
            to do that. I hope there is a way to convert directly to Xcode 2.1. If
            worst comes to worst, my PowerBook is still running OS X 10.3 and (I
            think) Xcode 1.0, so we should be able to convert PB to Xcode 1.0 to
            Xcode 2.1.

            Unless you change your mind and decide to stick with autoconf/make,
            I suggest you start there.

            > So to sum up, count me in, but I'd be happier if a mac/vim aficionado
            > was standing by.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Steve

            --Benji Fisher
          • Jussi Hagman
            ... Good to hear that you take your job seriously! :) ... Yes. ... I doubt it, haven t tried for a while though. ... I don t have an intel mac yet (and won t
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 18, 2006
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              On 12.1.2006, at 8:06, Benji Fisher wrote:

              > As the maintainer of the binaries on http://macvim.org/OSX/ I guess
              > it is my job to compile for OS X on Intel-based Macs.

              Good to hear that you take your job seriously! :)

              > Does anyone know how to cross-compile, or make a "universal"
              > binary, without using the XCode GUI?

              Yes.

              > Is it currently possible to compile vim *with* XCode?

              I doubt it, haven't tried for a while though.

              > Who is going to be the first on the block to buy an Intel-based Mac and
              > test it?

              I don't have an intel mac yet (and won't have one for a while I guess)
              but I've just used a few hours for a good cause in a bar drinking wine
              and tweaking+compiling manually an universal binary of vim 6.4. A friend
              tried it briefly on an intel-iMac he has loaned from Apple for a review.
              He unfortunately does not know vim well so he was unable to do any real
              testing.

              I'll try to find time later this weekend to document the (stupid) way I
              did it. :)

              I'm not claiming that this is a properly working version but if anyone
              has an intel mac please test it and Benji, if you like you can add it to
              macvim.org but only with a note that it is not a properly tested
              version.

              You can find the universal version of vim 6.4 here:

              http://infa.abo.fi/~jhagman/vim-universal-test.zip

              Greetings,
              Jussi


              --
              Jussi Hagman, jhagman@..., iChat/AIM: jussihagman, ICQ: 54004113
              Studentbyn 4 D 33, 20540 Åbo, Finland +358 50 56 51 170
            • Bernhard Prümmer
              ... I do own an iMac Core-Duo; I decided it was time for a new Mac at the beginning of this year, and thought it should be wise to wait for Steve s keynote on
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 18, 2006
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                Am 18.02.2006 um 21:20 schrieb Jussi Hagman:

                >
                >> Who is going to be the first on the block to buy an Intel-based
                >> Mac and
                >> test it?
                >
                > I don't have an intel mac yet (and won't have one for a while I guess)
                > but I've just used a few hours for a good cause in a bar drinking wine
                > and tweaking+compiling manually an universal binary of vim 6.4. A
                > friend
                > tried it briefly on an intel-iMac he has loaned from Apple for a
                > review.
                > He unfortunately does not know vim well so he was unable to do any
                > real
                > testing.
                >
                > I'll try to find time later this weekend to document the (stupid)
                > way I
                > did it. :)
                >
                I do own an iMac Core-Duo; I decided it was time for a new Mac at the
                beginning
                of this year, and thought it should be wise to wait for Steve's
                keynote on
                Jan. 10th. So, now it's an Intel-based iMac instead of an iMac G5.
                And of course, I am willing to do some testing because the PowerPC
                version
                from the macvim homepage shows some serious misbehaviour on my intel
                mac:
                At first sight, it runs well under Rosetta, but when you try to save
                a file
                you edit, vim is VERY likely to crash (with the system wishing to
                report this to Apple
                the usual way). Interestingly, vim has no problems to create and use
                swap files
                in the same directory while you edit. [ ??? :-( ]
                Anyway, it was so annoying that I decided to download the sources
                from macvim.org and
                build a native version myself. To my surprise, the source code has no
                mac-specific stuff,
                so I created an X11 version that runs quite well, except for some
                lack in comfort.

                > I'm not claiming that this is a properly working version but if anyone
                > has an intel mac please test it and Benji, if you like you can add
                > it to
                > macvim.org but only with a note that it is not a properly tested
                > version.
                >
                > You can find the universal version of vim 6.4 here:
                >
                > http://infa.abo.fi/~jhagman/vim-universal-test.zip
                >
                I'll download it and let you know how it works. If you tell me how
                you built
                this version, I'm going try it on my machine and see if this makes a
                difference.

                > Greetings,
                > Jussi
                >
                Cheers
                Bernhard
              • Jussi Hagman
                ... Great! ... Could you provide me with the relevant entry in the crashlog[1]? I probably won t be able to fix it but it would be interesting to see what is
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 18, 2006
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                  On 18.2.2006, at 23:39, Bernhard Prümmer wrote:
                  >
                  > I do own an iMac Core-Duo;

                  Great!

                  > And of course, I am willing to do some testing because the PowerPC
                  > version
                  > from the macvim homepage shows some serious misbehaviour on my
                  > intel mac:
                  > At first sight, it runs well under Rosetta, but when you try to
                  > save a file
                  > you edit, vim is VERY likely to crash (with the system wishing to
                  > report this to Apple the usual way).

                  Could you provide me with the relevant entry in the crashlog[1]? I
                  probably won't be able to fix it but it would be interesting to see
                  what is happening.

                  > Anyway, it was so annoying that I decided to download the sources
                  > from macvim.org and build a native version myself. To my surprise,
                  > the source code has no mac-specific stuff, so I created an X11
                  > version that runs quite well, except for some lack in comfort.

                  Mac specific stuff should be there (os_mac.c, gui_mac.c :) maybe the
                  configure script did not understand that you are running a mac.

                  > I'll download it and let you know how it works. If you tell me how
                  > you built
                  > this version, I'm going try it on my machine and see if this makes
                  > a difference.

                  The process was following: (I hope the commands do not break in wrong
                  places, I've got no control over that with Apple's mail:(

                  Get the latest vim source from CVS:
                  cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@...:80/cvsroot/vim
                  checkout vim

                  cd vim

                  Edit src/os_mac.h by removing lines 97-99:

                  # if !__option(enumsalwaysint)
                  # error "You must compile with enums always int!"
                  # endif

                  THIS IS A DIRTY HACK! The whole file should be checked for
                  assumptions that !PPC == 68k.

                  Run configure and make
                  export CFLAGS="-O -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk -arch
                  i386 -arch ppc"
                  ./configure --disable-dependency-tracking --enable-multibyte --
                  enable-gui=carbon
                  make

                  (there are quite many warnings but let's ignore them for now)

                  Removethe binary as it links only for PPC (or probably Intel on your
                  machine) and link it by hand:
                  cd src
                  rm vim

                  (the next is one command and it is unindented for easier copy+paste)

                  gcc -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk -arch i386 \
                  -arch ppc -L/usr/local/lib -o Vim objects/buffer.o objects/charset.o \
                  objects/diff.o objects/digraph.o objects/edit.o objects/eval.o \
                  objects/ex_cmds.o objects/ex_cmds2.o objects/ex_docmd.o \
                  objects/ex_eval.o objects/ex_getln.o objects/fileio.o objects/fold.o \
                  objects/getchar.o objects/if_cscope.o objects/if_xcmdsrv.o objects/
                  main.o \
                  objects/mark.o objects/memfile.o objects/memline.o objects/menu.o \
                  objects/message.o objects/misc1.o objects/misc2.o objects/move.o \
                  objects/mbyte.o objects/normal.o objects/ops.o objects/option.o \
                  objects/os_unix.o objects/pathdef.o objects/quickfix.o objects/
                  regexp.o \
                  objects/screen.o objects/search.o objects/syntax.o objects/tag.o
                  objects/term.o \
                  objects/ui.o objects/undo.o objects/window.o objects/gui.o objects/
                  gui_mac.o \
                  objects/pty.o objects/os_macosx.o objects/netbeans.o objects/version.o \
                  -framework Carbon -lncurses -liconv

                  This is also a HACK. I copied the command from the make output (it's
                  right in the end) and I added a few flags.

                  check that the file is indeed an universal (optional step :)
                  $ file vim
                  vim: Mach-O fat file with 2 architectures
                  vim (for architecture i386): Mach-O executable i386
                  vim (for architecture ppc): Mach-O executable ppc

                  make the application bundle

                  cd ..
                  make install

                  The application bundle is in src directory as Vim.app

                  I hope this helps you and others. If there are any problems feel free
                  to contact me by mail, IM or Skype. It would be great to fix the
                  compilation, some other things and make a patch for Bram.

                  Greetings,
                  Jussi

                  [1] The file is in ~/Library/Logs/CrashReporter/Vim.crash.log and
                  send it to me, preferably only the relevant entry but if there are
                  different things you could send the whole file. You can also use /
                  Applications/Utilities/Console.app or your favourite editor to look
                  at the file.


                  --
                  Jussi Hagman, jhagman@..., iChat/AIM: jussihagman, ICQ: 54004113
                  Studentbyn 4 D 33, 20540 Åbo, Finland +358 50 56 51 170
                • Bernhard Prümmer
                  ... Ah-ha! I just tried to reproduce the effects I saw last month but was unable to get them again. Hmm, I updated the iMac to 10.4.5 recently ... could it
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 18, 2006
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                    Am 19.02.2006 um 01:00 schrieb Jussi Hagman:

                    >
                    > On 18.2.2006, at 23:39, Bernhard Prümmer wrote:
                    >>
                    >> I do own an iMac Core-Duo;
                    >
                    > Great!
                    >
                    >> And of course, I am willing to do some testing because the PowerPC
                    >> version
                    >> from the macvim homepage shows some serious misbehaviour on my
                    >> intel mac:
                    >> At first sight, it runs well under Rosetta, but when you try to
                    >> save a file
                    >> you edit, vim is VERY likely to crash (with the system wishing to
                    >> report this to Apple the usual way).
                    >
                    > Could you provide me with the relevant entry in the crashlog[1]? I
                    > probably won't be able to fix it but it would be interesting to see
                    > what is happening.
                    >
                    Ah-ha! I just tried to reproduce the effects I saw last month but was
                    unable to get them again.
                    Hmm, I updated the iMac to 10.4.5 recently ... could it have been a
                    kind of rosetta bug?
                    Anyway, I'll send you the requested files, still might be useful.

                    >> Anyway, it was so annoying that I decided to download the sources
                    >> from macvim.org and build a native version myself. To my surprise,
                    >> the source code has no mac-specific stuff, so I created an X11
                    >> version that runs quite well, except for some lack in comfort.
                    >
                    > Mac specific stuff should be there (os_mac.c, gui_mac.c :) maybe
                    > the configure script did not understand that you are running a mac.
                    >
                    I checked the origin of the source files again: http://www.vim.org/
                    download.php (section "version 6.x")
                    So, they were not from the macvim homepage.

                    >> I'll download it and let you know how it works. If you tell me how
                    >> you built
                    >> this version, I'm going try it on my machine and see if this makes
                    >> a difference.
                    >
                    I tinkered with a few text files the way I usually do - nothing
                    strange encountered.
                    Even the "About VIM" item from the "Vim" menu does not work - exactly
                    like the PowerPC version.
                    The only deviation from Benji's version so far is that your Vim icon
                    lacks the "im" ... ;-)
                    >
                    > [1] The file is in ~/Library/Logs/CrashReporter/Vim.crash.log and
                    > send it to me, preferably only the relevant entry but if there are
                    > different things you could send the whole file. You can also use /
                    > Applications/Utilities/Console.app or your favourite editor to look
                    > at the file.
                    Guess what editor this might be ... ;-)

                    Regards
                    Bernhard
                  • Jussi Hagman
                    ... I looked at the file and firstly it is quite hard to say anything, Rosetta does make them harder to interpret, but I guess you are correct. It is quite
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 19, 2006
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                      On 19.2.2006, at 2:39, Bernhard Prümmer wrote:

                      >
                      > Am 19.02.2006 um 01:00 schrieb Jussi Hagman:
                      >
                      >>
                      >> On 18.2.2006, at 23:39, Bernhard Prümmer wrote:
                      >>
                      > Ah-ha! I just tried to reproduce the effects I saw last month but
                      > was unable to get them again.
                      > Hmm, I updated the iMac to 10.4.5 recently ... could it have been a
                      > kind of rosetta bug?
                      > Anyway, I'll send you the requested files, still might be useful.

                      I looked at the file and firstly it is quite hard to say anything,
                      Rosetta does make them harder to interpret, but I guess you are
                      correct. It is quite likely a Rosetta bug.

                      > I checked the origin of the source files again: http://www.vim.org/
                      > download.php (section "version 6.x")
                      > So, they were not from the macvim homepage.

                      OK. The unix archive of sources does apparently not include the
                      files, CVS is the way to go. :)

                      > I tinkered with a few text files the way I usually do - nothing
                      > strange encountered.
                      > Even the "About VIM" item from the "Vim" menu does not work -
                      > exactly like the PowerPC version.
                      > The only deviation from Benji's version so far is that your Vim
                      > icon lacks the "im" ... ;-)

                      OK :) Good to hear. If you have the time it would be nice (from a mac
                      user's point of view, not vim user's) if you could test how much
                      faster the the native code is compared to Rosetta. But then again, I
                      rarely have any problems with vim speed (apart from some OS X
                      specific issues that probably are not affected that much by Rosetta)

                      I could try to make some patches to allow the compilation on intel
                      macs later today or tomorrow. I'd be grateful if you could be my
                      guinea pig to try to compile vim on intel mac after the changes.

                      I guess the compilation (of the mac gui version) does not work at the
                      moment even on intel based mac without removing the lines I talked
                      about earlier.

                      >>
                      >> [1] The file is in ~/Library/Logs/CrashReporter/Vim.crash.log and
                      >> send it to me, preferably only the relevant entry but if there are
                      >> different things you could send the whole file. You can also use /
                      >> Applications/Utilities/Console.app or your favourite editor to
                      >> look at the file.
                      > Guess what editor this might be ... ;-)

                      Hmm... emacs? :)

                      Greetings,
                      Jussi

                      --
                      Jussi Hagman, jhagman@..., iChat/AIM: jussihagman, ICQ: 54004113
                      Studentbyn 4 D 33, 20540 Åbo, Finland +358 50 56 51 170
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