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Re: MacVim and App Store

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  • Carl Jacobsen
    ... How about an in-between alternative that gets the Check for updates... menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you? I m
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
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      On Sep 6, 2012, at 7:46 AM, björn <bjorn.winckler@...> wrote:

      > The automatic updates (i.e. Sparkle) caused me major maintenance
      > headaches in the past so I had the choice of getting rid of it or
      > never making any new updates. Maybe I'll look into it again one day,
      > but probably not.
      >
      > Sorry that I can't be more obliging on these kinds of issues, but to
      > me they really detract from the fun of maintaing a project such as
      > MacVim, so I feel it best to avoid them lest I run the risk of loosing
      > interest.

      How about an in-between alternative that gets the "Check for updates..."
      menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you?

      I'm thinking something along the lines of:

      - keep a version file at a known location, say in the github repo.
      - file contains a) current version/build/snapshot#'s, b) release
      date, and c) URL of current download/release-notes page.
      - if/when user clicks "Check for updates", grab the file.
      - if the current version number is less than or equal to the
      one in the file, put up the expected dialog "congratulations,
      you're running the latest version of MacVim".
      - if the one listed online is newer, then put up a dialog "MacVim
      version x.y snapshot NN, was released on yyyy-mm-dd (you have
      version v.w snapshot LL), do you want to visit the download/
      release-notes page?" with a yes/no prompt, and if they select
      yes, just feed the URL to the OS and let their browser display
      the page.

      This gives anyone using MacVim (even those naive enough not to be
      on this list or following you on twitter -- I suspect a lot of
      people don't get any further than seeing the grayed-out "Check for
      updates" option) an easy (understandable and easily discoverable)
      way to check for updates, and all you'd need to do (uh, aside from
      the initial bit of coding, yeah), is update the version file with
      the latest version info once a new snapshot is up (oh, probably
      announce it here and wait a day to ensure there are no screams of
      anguish first). No downloading, permissions, libraries/dependencies,
      etc. No prepping beyond what you currently do, aside from updating
      the version file. And the user can choose to download or not.

      Cheers,
      Carl

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    • Tony Mechelynck
      On Sep 7, 5:02 am, Christopher Stone wrote: [...] ... Only USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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        On Sep 7, 5:02 am, Christopher Stone <listmeis...@...>
        wrote:
        [...]
        > Even if you avoid the app-store there may be some advantages to being a registered developer.  I think the fee is only $99.00 US, and I'm reasonably certain your user-base would be happy to cover that.  I would have no problem kicking in a few bucks.
        >
        > --
        > Best Regards,
        > Chris

        "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
        "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
        guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
        stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
        price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
        the fraction's denominator. :-P

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      • Carl Jacobsen
        ... Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel smug? I ve used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes (Linux
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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          On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:

          > "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
          > "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
          > guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
          > stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
          > price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
          > the fraction's denominator. :-P

          Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
          smug?

          I've used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes
          (Linux included) starting with the then-new 4.2BSD on a Vax in 1983,
          eight years before the earliest version of Linux existed. I choose to
          use Mac OS X because I prefer it to all other available choices,
          *including Linux*, for a wide variety of reasons (and "looking cool in
          coffee shops" is *not* on that list). Linux is a nice Unix-alike, but
          has always been missing a *really* good, thorough, *consistent*, GUI.
          Mac OS X is a good BSD-variant Unix, with an absolutely fantastic GUI.
          To me, and to many others, it's worth jumping through a few hoops
          (like buying [fantastic-but-spendy] Mac hardware) to be able to use
          Mac OS X. We probably won't be able to sufficiently educate you about
          what you're missing out on to change your mind, but, by the same
          token, you aren't going to be able to convince us that Linux is
          superior to Mac OS X. So please don't try.

          And back on topic, count me in on being willing to contribute (each
          year) towards a membership for Björn in the Mac Developer Program,
          should he elect to start signing MacVim (I think it would involve
          jumping through some hoops in Xcode initially, but could then be
          automated to a simple call to /usr/bin/codesign in the Makefile).

          My apologies for feeding the troll,
          Carl

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        • Charles
          ... [snip] ... It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his remaks as smugness.
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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            Carl Jacobsen wrote:
            > On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            >> "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
            >> "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
            >> guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
            >> stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
            >> price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
            >> the fraction's denominator. :-P
            >
            > Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
            > smug?

            [snip]

            > My apologies for feeding the troll,
            > Carl

            It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony
            Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his
            remaks as smugness. Over on the vim_use list he is the most helpful
            (and nicest) participant, by a comically wide margin. And that list is
            in general nice and helpful. Plus, he even reads the mac list and helps
            out occasionally here too.

            Charles

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          • Chip Warden
            ... Sorry Charles, but in this case Tony s definitely being a troll, and a smug one at that. I felt exactly the same way as Charles, but I take a hard line on
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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              On Sep 8, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:

              > Carl Jacobsen wrote:
              >> On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...>
              >> wrote:
              >>
              >>> "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
              >>> "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
              >>> guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
              >>> stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
              >>> price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
              >>> the fraction's denominator. :-P
              >>
              >> Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
              >> smug?
              >
              > [snip]
              >
              >> My apologies for feeding the troll,
              >> Carl
              >
              > It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony
              > Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his
              > remaks as smugness. Over on the vim_use list he is the most helpful
              > (and nicest) participant, by a comically wide margin. And that list is
              > in general nice and helpful. Plus, he even reads the mac list and helps
              > out occasionally here too.
              >
              > Charles

              Sorry Charles, but in this case Tony's definitely being a troll, and a smug one at that. I felt exactly the same way as Charles, but I take a hard line on *not* feeding trolls. Tony may indeed by a nice guy, but I wouldn't be able to tell that from his original post in this thread.

              Having said that, let's please agree that MacVim on the Mac App Store would be a Terrible Idea ™, and if Bjorn doesn't want to pay $99 for a code signing key from Apple, it's not at all difficult to override Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper settings on a app-by-app basis for MacVim.

              Chip

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            • Chip Warden
              ... Apologies, Charles. I felt the same way as *Carl*. Chip -- You received this message from the vim_mac maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                On Sep 8, 2012, at 6:29 PM, Chip Warden <chip.warden@...> wrote:

                > as Charles

                Apologies, Charles. I felt the same way as *Carl*.

                Chip

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              • gmn
                ... There already is such a file. It s in html, and it s here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog] Or, the user can just look here:
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                  Carl Jacobsen, on 09/06/12 at 21:17:08 -0700, wrote:
                  > How about an in-between alternative that gets the "Check for updates..."
                  > menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you?
                  >
                  > I'm thinking something along the lines of:
                  >
                  > - keep a version file at a known location, say in the github repo.
                  > - file contains a) current version/build/snapshot#'s, b) release
                  > date, and c) URL of current download/release-notes page.

                  There already is such a file. It's in html, and it's here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog%5d

                  Or, the user can just look here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/downloads%5d and see if there's a new snapshot.

                  > - if/when user clicks "Check for updates", grab the file.

                  A bookmark makes it a one-click affair. So would this:

                  nmap <F8> :!open -a Safari https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog<CR>

                  -gmn

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                • Charles
                  ... Well, I certainly agree with that. I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                    Chip Warden wrote:
                    > Having said that, let's please agree that MacVim on the Mac App Store would
                    > be a Terrible Idea

                    Well, I certainly agree with that. I suspect, however, that I am the only one
                    who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                    insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
                    "programs" that live there. The app store is for cartoon programs that let
                    you share your grocery list with the universe, or tell your phone which
                    song is playing in iTunes on your Mac right now.

                    Charles

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                  • Chip Warden
                    ... And, of course, you d be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea. ... And again, you d be wrong. There are lots of good,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                      On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:

                      > I suspect, however, that I am the only one
                      > who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                      > insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
                      > "programs" that live there.

                      And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea.

                      > The app store is for cartoon programs that let
                      > you share your grocery list with the universe, or tell your phone which
                      > song is playing in iTunes on your Mac right now.

                      And again, you'd be wrong. There are lots of good, useful programs on the Mac App Store. Of course, there are many *more* good, useful programs that would never be allowed on the Mac App Store, including MacVim.

                      Wow, I'm violating my own rule about not feeding trolls. Congratulations, Charles, you successfully troll-baited me.

                      Chip


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                    • Christopher Stone
                      ... ______________________________________________________________________ Apparently he doesn t read either: ... The app-store has some fine software
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                        On Sep 08, 2012, at 20:38, Chip Warden <chip.warden@...> wrote:
                        > On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:
                        >> I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other "programs" that live there.
                        >
                        > And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea.

                        ______________________________________________________________________

                        Apparently he doesn't read either:

                        On Sep 06, 2012, at 22:02, Christopher Stone <listmeister@...> wrote:
                        > On Sep 06, 2012, at 09:31, björn <bjorn.winckler@...> wrote:
                        >> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?
                        >
                        > Amen.

                        The app-store has some fine software available in addition to the dross, but it's a claustrophobic space ill-suited to developers who are unable or unwilling to put up with Apple's restrictive guidelines.

                        -ccs

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                      • mvim@forallx.net
                        ... But I didn t assume. As the text says, I merely suspected. There is nothing wrong with having suspicions about what others think. E.g., I may suspect
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                          Chip Warden wrote:
                          > On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I suspect, however, that I am the only one
                          > > who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                          > > insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
                          > > "programs" that live there.

                          > And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is
                          > never a good idea.

                          But I didn't assume. As the text says, I merely suspected. There is nothing
                          wrong with having suspicions about what others think. E.g., I may suspect that the election will be a close one.

                          > Wow, I'm violating my own rule about not feeding trolls. Congratulations,
                          > Charles, you successfully troll-baited me.

                          A troll is someone who wants others to be annoyed and to reply to their
                          postings. This describes neither me nor (I suspect) Tony Mechelynck. Some were annoyed and replied, neither of which was hoped for.


                          Charles

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                        • mvim@forallx.net
                          ... One who reads would have read that... ... ...and would not have stopped at terrible . Such a reader can see that I suspect I m the only one whose
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                            > Apparently he doesn't read either:
                            >
                            > >> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?
                            > >
                            > > Amen.

                            One who reads would have read that...

                            > I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be
                            > terrible in part because it would be degrading and insulting to MacVim
                            > to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other "programs" that
                            > live there.

                            ...and would not have stopped at "terrible". Such a reader can see that
                            I suspect I'm the only one whose negativity towards putting MacVim on
                            the MAS stems in part because the MAS is degrading and insulting to
                            MacVim. The view that MAS is insulting and degrading to MacVim is an
                            odd view to have, since MacVim has no feelings to be hurt and no dignity
                            to be trampled. That's why I conjectured that I'm the only weirdo who
                            holds it to an appreciable degree.

                            So far, no one else has admitted to sharing this funny opinion with me.

                            Charles

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                          • Tony Mechelynck
                            On Sep 8, 9:30 pm, Carl Jacobsen wrote: [...] ... Believe it or not, yes I am. I occasionally answer posts which were made on vim_mac but
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 9, 2012
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                              On Sep 8, 9:30 pm, Carl Jacobsen <li...@...> wrote:
                              [...]
                              > Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
                              > smug?

                              Believe it or not, yes I am. I occasionally answer posts which were
                              made on vim_mac but actually belong on vim_use, and I also help ban
                              the spammers and allow the legitimete new subscribers.

                              >
                              > I've used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes
                              > (Linux included) starting with the then-new 4.2BSD on a Vax in 1983,
                              > eight years before the earliest version of Linux existed. I choose to
                              > use Mac OS X because I prefer it to all other available choices,
                              > *including Linux*, for a wide variety of reasons (and "looking cool in
                              > coffee shops" is *not* on that list). Linux is a nice Unix-alike, but
                              > has always been missing a *really* good, thorough, *consistent*, GUI.
                              > Mac OS X is a good BSD-variant Unix, with an absolutely fantastic GUI.
                              > To me, and to many others, it's worth jumping through a few hoops
                              > (like buying [fantastic-but-spendy] Mac hardware) to be able to use
                              > Mac OS X. We probably won't be able to sufficiently educate you about
                              > what you're missing out on to change your mind, but, by the same
                              > token, you aren't going to be able to convince us that Linux is
                              > superior to Mac OS X. So please don't try.

                              I suppose we just don't have the same preferences. I don't blame you
                              for preferring the luxury of a Rolls-Royce (and paying for it), please
                              son't snub my VW Beetle.

                              >
                              > And back on topic, count me in on being willing to contribute (each
                              > year) towards a membership for Björn in the Mac Developer Program,
                              > should he elect to start signing MacVim (I think it would involve
                              > jumping through some hoops in Xcode initially, but could then be
                              > automated to a simple call to /usr/bin/codesign in the Makefile).
                              >
                              > My apologies for feeding the troll,
                              > Carl

                              Oh, and BTW I don't know what privileges "registered developers"
                              enjoy, maybe that's one of the reasons why it seemed unduly expensive
                              to me to pay USD 99 just for being one.

                              Usually I'm the one recommending not to feed the animals :-P Can't you
                              take humor? Not when it means someone doesn't assume costlier is
                              better, apparently. Oh, well, maybe I'm the one feeding the troll now.
                              I'll shut up.


                              Best regards,
                              Tony.
                              --
                              Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.

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