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MacVim and App Store

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  • Janusz Bossy
    Hi Björn, any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It s just convenient to have all the apps update in one place. -- Regards, Janusz Bossy --
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 3, 2012
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      Hi Björn,

      any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
      convenient to have all the apps update in one place.

      --
      Regards,
      Janusz Bossy

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    • Frank Hellenkamp
      Hi Björn, ... (Besides difficulties with the App-Store, who s sandbox would restrict much of MacVims functionality e.g. direct access to files through :e
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 3, 2012
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        Hi Björn,

        > any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
        > convenient to have all the apps update in one place.


        (Besides difficulties with the App-Store, who's sandbox would restrict much of MacVims functionality e.g. direct access to files through ":e" etc...)

        It would be nice to have one Developer ID for the "official" builds, so that MacVim would work nice with GateKeeper and the the Security setting "Mac App Store and identified developers".

        At the the moment it is easy to workaround by selecting the App and select "Open" from the context menu and confirm the next dialog box. But that should be documented in the WIKI/Download pages.


        Best

        Frank

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      • Myroslav Rys
        Hi Frank, I have Developer ID and I can maintain MacVim build for 10.8. Sincerely, Myroslav. Myroslav Rys | myroslav@me.com | Infrastructure and Operations
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 3, 2012
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          Hi Frank,

          I have Developer ID and I can maintain MacVim build for 10.8.


          Sincerely,
          Myroslav.


          Myroslav Rys | myroslav@... | Infrastructure and Operations Management Expert
          mountain bike, snowboard, *nix

          On 3 Sep 2012, at 15:19, Frank Hellenkamp <jonas@...> wrote:

          > Hi Björn,
          >
          >> any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
          >> convenient to have all the apps update in one place.
          >
          >
          > (Besides difficulties with the App-Store, who's sandbox would restrict much of MacVims functionality e.g. direct access to files through ":e" etc...)
          >
          > It would be nice to have one Developer ID for the "official" builds, so that MacVim would work nice with GateKeeper and the the Security setting "Mac App Store and identified developers".
          >
          > At the the moment it is easy to workaround by selecting the App and select "Open" from the context menu and confirm the next dialog box. But that should be documented in the WIKI/Download pages.
          >
          >
          > Best
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > --
          > frank hellenkamp | interface designer
          > solmsstraße 7 | 10961 berlin
          >
          > +49.30.49 78 20 70 | tel
          > +49.176.32 13 88 89 | mbl
          > +49.3212.100 35 22 | fax
          > skype:jonas__jonas | skype
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          >
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          > http://depagecms.net | content management
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          > http://everydayisexactlythesame.net | see
          > http://ideenkonserve.de | ideas
          >
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        • björn
          ... I don t think I want to use the App Store. Why? 1. Sandbox restrictions. Like Frank says, it would cripple lots of Vim functionality (as far as I
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
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            >> any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
            >> convenient to have all the apps update in one place.
            >
            > (Besides difficulties with the App-Store, who's sandbox would restrict much of MacVims functionality e.g. direct access to files through ":e" etc...)
            >
            > It would be nice to have one Developer ID for the "official" builds, so that MacVim would work nice with GateKeeper and the the Security setting "Mac App Store and identified developers".

            I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?

            1. Sandbox restrictions. Like Frank says, it would cripple lots of
            Vim functionality (as far as I understand - I wouldn't mind being
            proven wrong).

            2. Update bureaucracy. Having to wait for Apple to approve every
            update seems like a major pain to me. I'd rather be able to
            immediately upload a botched update, than having to wait and receive
            lots of complaints while Apple is approving a fix.

            3. Price. I'm not a registered Mac developer (I don't program for a
            living, this is just a hobby) and I don't fancy having to pay Apple
            for the pleasure of providing MacVim. I could ask for donations
            (given how generous people have been in the past I don't doubt that
            this would work) but items 1 and 2 makes me wonder whether it is worth
            it.

            Signing MacVim for use with GateKeeper seems like a *much* less
            painful option but I'd still have to pay to register as a Mac
            developer. I've written to Apple a few days ago to ask if they can't
            provide a way for Open Source projects to sign apps without having to
            pay for it, but have not yet received a reply (I don't have high
            hopes).

            So, I'm deliberating whether I should ask for donations for
            registering as a Mac developer, but I am still undecided. What's
            stopping me is that I would have to sit down and figure out how the
            signing process works (I'm not overly fond of that type of drudgery
            and it usually takes much more time than I'd like) and I'm not
            particularly keen on asking for donations once a year just to pay the
            Mac dev registration fee. Also, I'm not sure that I agree with
            GateKeeper (and the App Store) on a philosophical level.

            (Note that I do not particularly wish for somebody else to sign MacVim
            for me or to upload MacVim to the App Store. If this is to happen
            then I need to be able to control it myself.)

            Björn

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          • Janusz Bossy
            Hi Björn, thank you for the vast response. I did forget about the sandboxing - it would render MacVim a lot less potent without being able to access files
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
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              Hi Björn,

              thank you for the vast response. I did forget about the sandboxing -
              it would render MacVim a lot less potent without being able to access
              files using your keyboard. So let's forget about this. I'll leave you
              thinking about the Gatekeeper signing process but I might ask about
              something else - can we enable automatic checks for updates for
              snapshots?

              Janusz Bossy

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            • björn
              ... The automatic updates (i.e. Sparkle) caused me major maintenance headaches in the past so I had the choice of getting rid of it or never making any new
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
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                On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Janusz Bossy wrote:
                >
                > thank you for the vast response. I did forget about the sandboxing -
                > it would render MacVim a lot less potent without being able to access
                > files using your keyboard. So let's forget about this. I'll leave you
                > thinking about the Gatekeeper signing process but I might ask about
                > something else - can we enable automatic checks for updates for
                > snapshots?

                The automatic updates (i.e. Sparkle) caused me major maintenance
                headaches in the past so I had the choice of getting rid of it or
                never making any new updates. Maybe I'll look into it again one day,
                but probably not.

                Sorry that I can't be more obliging on these kinds of issues, but to
                me they really detract from the fun of maintaing a project such as
                MacVim, so I feel it best to avoid them lest I run the risk of loosing
                interest.

                I try to mitigate the lack of automatic updates by tweeting
                (@b4winckler) and posting here whenever I release a new snapshot.

                Björn

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              • Christopher Stone
                Hey Björn, ... Amen. ... Even if you avoid the app-store there may be some advantages to being a registered developer. I think the fee is only $99.00 US, and
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
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                  Hey Björn,

                  On Sep 06, 2012, at 09:31, björn <bjorn.winckler@...> wrote:
                  > I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?

                  Amen.

                  > So, I'm deliberating whether I should ask for donations for registering as a Mac developer, but I am still undecided.

                  Even if you avoid the app-store there may be some advantages to being a registered developer. I think the fee is only $99.00 US, and I'm reasonably certain your user-base would be happy to cover that. I would have no problem kicking in a few bucks.

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                  Chris

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                • Carl Jacobsen
                  ... How about an in-between alternative that gets the Check for updates... menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you? I m
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
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                    On Sep 6, 2012, at 7:46 AM, björn <bjorn.winckler@...> wrote:

                    > The automatic updates (i.e. Sparkle) caused me major maintenance
                    > headaches in the past so I had the choice of getting rid of it or
                    > never making any new updates. Maybe I'll look into it again one day,
                    > but probably not.
                    >
                    > Sorry that I can't be more obliging on these kinds of issues, but to
                    > me they really detract from the fun of maintaing a project such as
                    > MacVim, so I feel it best to avoid them lest I run the risk of loosing
                    > interest.

                    How about an in-between alternative that gets the "Check for updates..."
                    menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you?

                    I'm thinking something along the lines of:

                    - keep a version file at a known location, say in the github repo.
                    - file contains a) current version/build/snapshot#'s, b) release
                    date, and c) URL of current download/release-notes page.
                    - if/when user clicks "Check for updates", grab the file.
                    - if the current version number is less than or equal to the
                    one in the file, put up the expected dialog "congratulations,
                    you're running the latest version of MacVim".
                    - if the one listed online is newer, then put up a dialog "MacVim
                    version x.y snapshot NN, was released on yyyy-mm-dd (you have
                    version v.w snapshot LL), do you want to visit the download/
                    release-notes page?" with a yes/no prompt, and if they select
                    yes, just feed the URL to the OS and let their browser display
                    the page.

                    This gives anyone using MacVim (even those naive enough not to be
                    on this list or following you on twitter -- I suspect a lot of
                    people don't get any further than seeing the grayed-out "Check for
                    updates" option) an easy (understandable and easily discoverable)
                    way to check for updates, and all you'd need to do (uh, aside from
                    the initial bit of coding, yeah), is update the version file with
                    the latest version info once a new snapshot is up (oh, probably
                    announce it here and wait a day to ensure there are no screams of
                    anguish first). No downloading, permissions, libraries/dependencies,
                    etc. No prepping beyond what you currently do, aside from updating
                    the version file. And the user can choose to download or not.

                    Cheers,
                    Carl

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                  • Tony Mechelynck
                    On Sep 7, 5:02 am, Christopher Stone wrote: [...] ... Only USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                      On Sep 7, 5:02 am, Christopher Stone <listmeis...@...>
                      wrote:
                      [...]
                      > Even if you avoid the app-store there may be some advantages to being a registered developer.  I think the fee is only $99.00 US, and I'm reasonably certain your user-base would be happy to cover that.  I would have no problem kicking in a few bucks.
                      >
                      > --
                      > Best Regards,
                      > Chris

                      "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
                      "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
                      guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
                      stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
                      price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
                      the fraction's denominator. :-P

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                    • Carl Jacobsen
                      ... Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel smug? I ve used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes (Linux
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                        On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...> wrote:

                        > "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
                        > "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
                        > guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
                        > stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
                        > price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
                        > the fraction's denominator. :-P

                        Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
                        smug?

                        I've used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes
                        (Linux included) starting with the then-new 4.2BSD on a Vax in 1983,
                        eight years before the earliest version of Linux existed. I choose to
                        use Mac OS X because I prefer it to all other available choices,
                        *including Linux*, for a wide variety of reasons (and "looking cool in
                        coffee shops" is *not* on that list). Linux is a nice Unix-alike, but
                        has always been missing a *really* good, thorough, *consistent*, GUI.
                        Mac OS X is a good BSD-variant Unix, with an absolutely fantastic GUI.
                        To me, and to many others, it's worth jumping through a few hoops
                        (like buying [fantastic-but-spendy] Mac hardware) to be able to use
                        Mac OS X. We probably won't be able to sufficiently educate you about
                        what you're missing out on to change your mind, but, by the same
                        token, you aren't going to be able to convince us that Linux is
                        superior to Mac OS X. So please don't try.

                        And back on topic, count me in on being willing to contribute (each
                        year) towards a membership for Björn in the Mac Developer Program,
                        should he elect to start signing MacVim (I think it would involve
                        jumping through some hoops in Xcode initially, but could then be
                        automated to a simple call to /usr/bin/codesign in the Makefile).

                        My apologies for feeding the troll,
                        Carl

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                      • Charles
                        ... [snip] ... It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his remaks as smugness.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                          Carl Jacobsen wrote:
                          > On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          >> "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
                          >> "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
                          >> guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
                          >> stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
                          >> price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
                          >> the fraction's denominator. :-P
                          >
                          > Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
                          > smug?

                          [snip]

                          > My apologies for feeding the troll,
                          > Carl

                          It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony
                          Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his
                          remaks as smugness. Over on the vim_use list he is the most helpful
                          (and nicest) participant, by a comically wide margin. And that list is
                          in general nice and helpful. Plus, he even reads the mac list and helps
                          out occasionally here too.

                          Charles

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                        • Chip Warden
                          ... Sorry Charles, but in this case Tony s definitely being a troll, and a smug one at that. I felt exactly the same way as Charles, but I take a hard line on
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                            On Sep 8, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:

                            > Carl Jacobsen wrote:
                            >> On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.mechelynck@...>
                            >> wrote:
                            >>
                            >>> "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
                            >>> "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
                            >>> guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
                            >>> stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
                            >>> price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
                            >>> the fraction's denominator. :-P
                            >>
                            >> Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
                            >> smug?
                            >
                            > [snip]
                            >
                            >> My apologies for feeding the troll,
                            >> Carl
                            >
                            > It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony
                            > Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his
                            > remaks as smugness. Over on the vim_use list he is the most helpful
                            > (and nicest) participant, by a comically wide margin. And that list is
                            > in general nice and helpful. Plus, he even reads the mac list and helps
                            > out occasionally here too.
                            >
                            > Charles

                            Sorry Charles, but in this case Tony's definitely being a troll, and a smug one at that. I felt exactly the same way as Charles, but I take a hard line on *not* feeding trolls. Tony may indeed by a nice guy, but I wouldn't be able to tell that from his original post in this thread.

                            Having said that, let's please agree that MacVim on the Mac App Store would be a Terrible Idea ™, and if Bjorn doesn't want to pay $99 for a code signing key from Apple, it's not at all difficult to override Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper settings on a app-by-app basis for MacVim.

                            Chip

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                          • Chip Warden
                            ... Apologies, Charles. I felt the same way as *Carl*. Chip -- You received this message from the vim_mac maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                              On Sep 8, 2012, at 6:29 PM, Chip Warden <chip.warden@...> wrote:

                              > as Charles

                              Apologies, Charles. I felt the same way as *Carl*.

                              Chip

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                            • gmn
                              ... There already is such a file. It s in html, and it s here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog] Or, the user can just look here:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                Carl Jacobsen, on 09/06/12 at 21:17:08 -0700, wrote:
                                > How about an in-between alternative that gets the "Check for updates..."
                                > menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you?
                                >
                                > I'm thinking something along the lines of:
                                >
                                > - keep a version file at a known location, say in the github repo.
                                > - file contains a) current version/build/snapshot#'s, b) release
                                > date, and c) URL of current download/release-notes page.

                                There already is such a file. It's in html, and it's here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog%5d

                                Or, the user can just look here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/downloads%5d and see if there's a new snapshot.

                                > - if/when user clicks "Check for updates", grab the file.

                                A bookmark makes it a one-click affair. So would this:

                                nmap <F8> :!open -a Safari https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog<CR>

                                -gmn

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                              • Charles
                                ... Well, I certainly agree with that. I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                  Chip Warden wrote:
                                  > Having said that, let's please agree that MacVim on the Mac App Store would
                                  > be a Terrible Idea

                                  Well, I certainly agree with that. I suspect, however, that I am the only one
                                  who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                                  insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
                                  "programs" that live there. The app store is for cartoon programs that let
                                  you share your grocery list with the universe, or tell your phone which
                                  song is playing in iTunes on your Mac right now.

                                  Charles

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                                • Chip Warden
                                  ... And, of course, you d be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea. ... And again, you d be wrong. There are lots of good,
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                    On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:

                                    > I suspect, however, that I am the only one
                                    > who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                                    > insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
                                    > "programs" that live there.

                                    And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea.

                                    > The app store is for cartoon programs that let
                                    > you share your grocery list with the universe, or tell your phone which
                                    > song is playing in iTunes on your Mac right now.

                                    And again, you'd be wrong. There are lots of good, useful programs on the Mac App Store. Of course, there are many *more* good, useful programs that would never be allowed on the Mac App Store, including MacVim.

                                    Wow, I'm violating my own rule about not feeding trolls. Congratulations, Charles, you successfully troll-baited me.

                                    Chip


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                                  • Christopher Stone
                                    ... ______________________________________________________________________ Apparently he doesn t read either: ... The app-store has some fine software
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                      On Sep 08, 2012, at 20:38, Chip Warden <chip.warden@...> wrote:
                                      > On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:
                                      >> I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other "programs" that live there.
                                      >
                                      > And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea.

                                      ______________________________________________________________________

                                      Apparently he doesn't read either:

                                      On Sep 06, 2012, at 22:02, Christopher Stone <listmeister@...> wrote:
                                      > On Sep 06, 2012, at 09:31, björn <bjorn.winckler@...> wrote:
                                      >> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?
                                      >
                                      > Amen.

                                      The app-store has some fine software available in addition to the dross, but it's a claustrophobic space ill-suited to developers who are unable or unwilling to put up with Apple's restrictive guidelines.

                                      -ccs

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                                    • mvim@forallx.net
                                      ... But I didn t assume. As the text says, I merely suspected. There is nothing wrong with having suspicions about what others think. E.g., I may suspect
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                        Chip Warden wrote:
                                        > On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mvim@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I suspect, however, that I am the only one
                                        > > who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
                                        > > insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
                                        > > "programs" that live there.

                                        > And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is
                                        > never a good idea.

                                        But I didn't assume. As the text says, I merely suspected. There is nothing
                                        wrong with having suspicions about what others think. E.g., I may suspect that the election will be a close one.

                                        > Wow, I'm violating my own rule about not feeding trolls. Congratulations,
                                        > Charles, you successfully troll-baited me.

                                        A troll is someone who wants others to be annoyed and to reply to their
                                        postings. This describes neither me nor (I suspect) Tony Mechelynck. Some were annoyed and replied, neither of which was hoped for.


                                        Charles

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                                      • mvim@forallx.net
                                        ... One who reads would have read that... ... ...and would not have stopped at terrible . Such a reader can see that I suspect I m the only one whose
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                          > Apparently he doesn't read either:
                                          >
                                          > >> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?
                                          > >
                                          > > Amen.

                                          One who reads would have read that...

                                          > I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be
                                          > terrible in part because it would be degrading and insulting to MacVim
                                          > to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other "programs" that
                                          > live there.

                                          ...and would not have stopped at "terrible". Such a reader can see that
                                          I suspect I'm the only one whose negativity towards putting MacVim on
                                          the MAS stems in part because the MAS is degrading and insulting to
                                          MacVim. The view that MAS is insulting and degrading to MacVim is an
                                          odd view to have, since MacVim has no feelings to be hurt and no dignity
                                          to be trampled. That's why I conjectured that I'm the only weirdo who
                                          holds it to an appreciable degree.

                                          So far, no one else has admitted to sharing this funny opinion with me.

                                          Charles

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                                        • Tony Mechelynck
                                          On Sep 8, 9:30 pm, Carl Jacobsen wrote: [...] ... Believe it or not, yes I am. I occasionally answer posts which were made on vim_mac but
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 9, 2012
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                                            On Sep 8, 9:30 pm, Carl Jacobsen <li...@...> wrote:
                                            [...]
                                            > Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
                                            > smug?

                                            Believe it or not, yes I am. I occasionally answer posts which were
                                            made on vim_mac but actually belong on vim_use, and I also help ban
                                            the spammers and allow the legitimete new subscribers.

                                            >
                                            > I've used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes
                                            > (Linux included) starting with the then-new 4.2BSD on a Vax in 1983,
                                            > eight years before the earliest version of Linux existed. I choose to
                                            > use Mac OS X because I prefer it to all other available choices,
                                            > *including Linux*, for a wide variety of reasons (and "looking cool in
                                            > coffee shops" is *not* on that list). Linux is a nice Unix-alike, but
                                            > has always been missing a *really* good, thorough, *consistent*, GUI.
                                            > Mac OS X is a good BSD-variant Unix, with an absolutely fantastic GUI.
                                            > To me, and to many others, it's worth jumping through a few hoops
                                            > (like buying [fantastic-but-spendy] Mac hardware) to be able to use
                                            > Mac OS X. We probably won't be able to sufficiently educate you about
                                            > what you're missing out on to change your mind, but, by the same
                                            > token, you aren't going to be able to convince us that Linux is
                                            > superior to Mac OS X. So please don't try.

                                            I suppose we just don't have the same preferences. I don't blame you
                                            for preferring the luxury of a Rolls-Royce (and paying for it), please
                                            son't snub my VW Beetle.

                                            >
                                            > And back on topic, count me in on being willing to contribute (each
                                            > year) towards a membership for Björn in the Mac Developer Program,
                                            > should he elect to start signing MacVim (I think it would involve
                                            > jumping through some hoops in Xcode initially, but could then be
                                            > automated to a simple call to /usr/bin/codesign in the Makefile).
                                            >
                                            > My apologies for feeding the troll,
                                            > Carl

                                            Oh, and BTW I don't know what privileges "registered developers"
                                            enjoy, maybe that's one of the reasons why it seemed unduly expensive
                                            to me to pay USD 99 just for being one.

                                            Usually I'm the one recommending not to feed the animals :-P Can't you
                                            take humor? Not when it means someone doesn't assume costlier is
                                            better, apparently. Oh, well, maybe I'm the one feeding the troll now.
                                            I'll shut up.


                                            Best regards,
                                            Tony.
                                            --
                                            Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.

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