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Re: Does MacVim require separate installation of vim?

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  • Tim Gray
    ... It s probably wiser to call MacVim from the command line instead of calling the default OS X vim from the command line. This is because some of your
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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      On Jun 13, 2012 at 10:47 AM -0400, Eric Weir wrote:
      >Thanks for the clarification, Tony. So, two reason for having a
      >separate installation of vim: So I could run it in the terminal if I
      >wanted to. [Attempting to do so earlier today generated a list of
      >errors that helped me locate the source of a problem that was
      >preventing my plugins from loading.] And so I could do a manual install
      >of a plugin if I never needed to.

      It's probably wiser to call MacVim from the command line instead of
      calling the default OS X vim from the command line. This is because
      some of your plugins and settings that you use for MacVim might depend
      on features built into MacVim that aren't enabled in the version of vim
      bundled with OS X. The OS X default vim doesn't have python, perl, or
      ruby support enabled, which some plugins make use of. Also note,
      depending on your version of OS X, Apple doesn't always include the most
      up to date copy of vim, while your MacVim should be fairly recent.

      You can call MacVim from the command line several different ways. The
      easiest is probably to just create an alias in your .bashrc:

      alias vim='/Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/MacOS/Vim'

      Alternately, you can use the 'mvim' script that comes with MacVim. It's
      a shell script that looks for an calls MacVim in command line mode.
      Drop it somewhere that's in your path and just type 'mvim' on the
      prompt.

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    • Eric Weir
      ... Thanks again, Tim. Sorry about the screenshot. I would ve followed up when I realized it, but the description says it all. Only remnants of plugins from
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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        On Jun 13, 2012, at 10:33 AM, Tim Gray wrote:

        > On Jun 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM -0400, Eric Weir wrote:
        >> Thanks for the clarification, Tim. I'm attaching a screenshot of my ~\.vim folders with all the folders open. It does not appear to me that I have the executable. All I see are remnants of plugins. [Including something that I suspect is the source of apparent conflicts regarding the current installation of a plugin in vim-addon-manager.]

        > The screenshot didn't come through. Unless I'm mistaken, vim-addon-manager should be installing plugins in your ~/.vim folder. Even though you are using MacVim. I use MacVim and regular vim (on my Mac and Linux) and they all share the same .vimrc and .vim folder.

        Thanks again, Tim. Sorry about the screenshot. I would've followed up when I realized it, but the description says it all. Only remnants of plugins from when I was installing them manually.

        You can tweak where vim-addon-manager installs plugins---and is itself installed. I have mine going into ~\.

        >> Until now I'd been under the impression that MacVim was just a front end that uses the files in the ~\.vim folder. Inspecting the contents of the MacVim package led me to suspect that in fact the vim files, executables and all, are in it. That the folders in ~\vim are superfluous.
        >
        > That impression is incorrect. The vim executable on Mac can be store anywhere as long as you call it correctly.. The vim that comes package with OS X lives in /usr/bin/vim. If you install your own copy of the command line version, it probably lives at /usr/local/bin/vim. MacVim lives in /Applications. I don't know if you know this or not, but GUI applications in OS X are actually folders. Inside of the MacVim app folder is an honest to god, regular old command line version of vim. It's here: /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/MacOS/Vim. You can call that from the command line. I do it everyday, and am doing it to write this email. That's the executable or binary or application.

        Yes, it was taking a closer look at the MacVim package than had previously that led me to ask whether I needed a separate installation. It appears I don't. In any case I don't have it. It's not in \usr\local\bin.

        > Now that we got that out of the way, we can move onto the second point. Vim uses two (possibly more?) sets of configuration files and plugins. The first set is usually bundled with the program. For the command line version, this might be /usr/local/share/vim/vim73/, or /usr/share/vim/vim73, etc. For MacVim, it's /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime. These files are not the same as the ones that live in ~/.vim. The second set of configuration files/plugins are your config files. The per-user files. These are stored in ~, and include .vimrc and your .vim folder. MacVim and the command line versions of vim should both refer to these files when you use those programs.

        Again, it was looking at that runtime folder that made me realize there was more to vim than I was seeing in my ~\.vim folder.

        > To be explicit, the command line version of vim never lives in ~/.vim. MacVim is not a 'front end' for ~/.vim, and neither is CLI vim. ~/.vim is not superfluous for MacVim.

        I take it, reasons for running the command line version aside, that would not be true if all my plugins are installed by vim-addon-manager?

        > Again, unless vim-addon-manager is doing something I'm not aware of, it's probably installing your plugins in the .vim folder. Many plugin managers use ~/.vim/bundle, but it looks like vim-addon-manager defaults to ~/.vim/vim-addons.

        Yes, that's the default. But you can change it, and I have.

        And thanks again for the detailed explanations.

        Sincerely,
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Eric Weir
        Decatur, GA
        eeweir@...

        "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone,
        men would die from a great loneliness of spirit."

        - Chief Seattle






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      • Eric Weir
        ... Thanks for the heads up, Tim. And for the explanations of how to call vim from the command line. ... Eric Weir Decatur, GA eeweir@bellsouth.net What is
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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          On Jun 13, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Tim Gray wrote:

          > It's probably wiser to call MacVim from the command line instead of calling the default OS X vim from the command line. This is because some of your plugins and settings that you use for MacVim might depend on features built into MacVim that aren't enabled in the version of vim bundled with OS X. The OS X default vim doesn't have python, perl, or ruby support enabled, which some plugins make use of. Also note, depending on your version of OS X, Apple doesn't always include the most up to date copy of vim, while your MacVim should be fairly recent.
          >
          > You can call MacVim from the command line several different ways. The easiest is probably to just create an alias in your .bashrc:
          >
          > alias vim='/Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/MacOS/Vim'
          >
          > Alternately, you can use the 'mvim' script that comes with MacVim. It's a shell script that looks for an calls MacVim in command line mode. Drop it somewhere that's in your path and just type 'mvim' on the prompt.

          Thanks for the heads up, Tim. And for the explanations of how to call vim from the command line.

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Eric Weir
          Decatur, GA
          eeweir@...

          "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone,
          men would die from a great loneliness of spirit."

          - Chief Seattle






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        • Eric Weir
          A quick followup. I notice additions to the spelling dictionary---if that s what it s called;I m referring to en.utf-8.add and en.utf8.add.spl ---are
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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            A quick followup. I notice additions to the spelling dictionary---if that's what it's called;I'm referring to 'en.utf-8.add' and 'en.utf8.add.spl'---are getting saved to ~\.vim\spell. Is that the default location when using MacVim?

            Thanks,
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Eric Weir
            eeweir@...

            "Any assurance economists pretend to with
            regard to cause and effect is merely a pose."

            - Emanuel Derman






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          • Tim Gray
            ... You are more than welcome to do that, but other versions of vim are not going to look there by default... Is ~/ really better than ~/.vim/? Then again, I
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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              On Jun 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM -0400, Eric Weir wrote:
              >You can tweak where vim-addon-manager installs plugins---and is itself
              >installed. I have mine going into ~\.

              You are more than welcome to do that, but other versions of vim are not
              going to look there by default... Is ~/ really better than ~/.vim/?

              Then again, I use the command line quite a bit, so the last thing I want
              is a ton folders and files cluttering up my home directory - it's bad
              enough as it is now. Vim related stuff can go in .vim, where I can
              ignore it unless I need to access it.

              >Yes, it was taking a closer look at the MacVim package than had
              >previously that led me to ask whether I needed a separate installation.
              >It appears I don't. In any case I don't have it. It's not in
              >\usr\local\bin.

              If you are running OS X, I would be shocked if you didn't have vim at
              /usr/bin/vim, with the site wide files for the copy of vim at
              /usr/share/vim. To repeat, the site wide files are separate from your
              user files. Don't install plugins into the site wide file location.
              The stuff in .vim IS NOT a separate installation. The stuff you find in
              /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime is more or less
              mirrored at /usr/share/vim/vim73. Those two sets of files ARE separate
              installations of vim; the first corresponding to MacVim, the second to
              default OS X. The exact path (/usr/share/vim/vim73) might be different
              if you are running an older version of OS X. 10.5 for example didn't
              have Vim 7.3, it had 7.2, so the location for runtime files was
              /usr/share/vim/vim72.

              /usr/local/bin is a common place that user installed software goes on
              Unix systems. If you use the Homebrew package manager on OS X, that's
              where it links programs to. If not, then you might not even have a
              /usr/local directory yet (or ever).

              >I take it, reasons for running the command line version aside, that
              >would not be true if all my plugins are installed by vim-addon-manager?

              It's only 'superfluous' for you because you are storing your plugins in
              a nonstandard location and not using some of the other features that
              make use of .vim. Or maybe you are using some of those features but
              just don't realize it. And if you wanted to add ANYTHING customized,
              outside of what vim-addon-manager provides, you'd have to put it in
              ~/.vim/ (unless you really reconfigured things). For example, if you
              add terms to the speller dictionary, they go in ~/.vim/spell. If you
              use the session.vim plugin to save sessions, it saves it's files in
              ~/.vim/session. Tweaked color themes go in ~/.vim/colors. Snipmate
              looks for snippets in ~/.vim/snippets. I could go on, but I think you
              understand. The way I use vim, there are certain settings and scripts
              that aren't provided by any existing plugins, and those go into ~/.vim,
              because that's where Vim looks for such things.

              MacVim expects to find things in ~/.vim, IF you choose to use those
              capabilities. There's nothing from stopping someone from running plain
              vanilla (Mac)Vim with no .vimrc or plugins or files in the ~/.vim
              folder, but the program still looks there for stuff. If you do decide
              to use those features, Vim and most plugins expect to store and find
              things in .vim. Notice that vim-addon-manager defaults to
              ~/.vim/vim-addons? You had to change it to make it use another folder.
              vim-addon-manager is a very well written plugin where the option to use
              a different folder has been expose to the end user - a lot of plugins
              don't provide that.

              >Yes, that's the default. But you can change it, and I have.

              Again, you are welcome to store your files where ever it pleases you,
              but unless you have real strong reasons for moving things out of .vim,
              I'd recommend leaving things in .vim. Including vim-addon-manager's
              plugins. Just because that's where Vim and most of the plugins that
              work with vim expect to find things.

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            • Tim Gray
              ... Yes, it s the default location for MacVim and vim. -- You received this message from the vim_mac maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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                On Jun 13, 2012 at 11:36 AM -0400, Eric Weir wrote:
                >A quick followup. I notice additions to the spelling dictionary---if
                >that's what it's called;I'm referring to 'en.utf-8.add' and
                >'en.utf8.add.spl'---are getting saved to ~\.vim\spell. Is that the
                >default location when using MacVim?

                Yes, it's the default location for MacVim and vim.

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              • Eric Weir
                ... Thanks, Tim. ... Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eeweir@bellsouth.net Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position, but certainty is an absurd one. - Voltaire --
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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                  On Jun 13, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Tim Gray wrote:

                  > On Jun 13, 2012 at 11:36 AM -0400, Eric Weir wrote:
                  >> A quick followup. I notice additions to the spelling dictionary---if that's what it's called;I'm referring to 'en.utf-8.add' and 'en.utf8.add.spl'---are getting saved to ~\.vim\spell. Is that the default location when using MacVim?
                  >
                  > Yes, it's the default location for MacVim and vim.

                  Thanks, Tim.

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Eric Weir
                  Decatur, GA USA
                  eeweir@...

                  "Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position,
                  but certainty is an absurd one."

                  - Voltaire

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                • Eric Weir
                  ... I don t remember my specific reason for putting it there. I think at the time---and definitely so recently---I found myself going to the vim-addons folder
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 13, 2012
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                    On Jun 13, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Tim Gray wrote:

                    > On Jun 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM -0400, Eric Weir wrote:
                    >> You can tweak where vim-addon-manager installs plugins---and is itself installed. I have mine going into ~\.
                    >
                    > You are more than welcome to do that, but other versions of vim are not going to look there by default... Is ~/ really better than ~/.vim/?

                    I don't remember my specific reason for putting it there. I think at the time---and definitely so recently---I found myself going to the vim-addons folder frequently and just wanted it at the top level of ~\. I don't think it creates any problems for vim in finding plugins. When you change the location of the vim-addons folder, vam updates the runtime path for plugins to that location.

                    That said, your explanations below of the variety of ways ~\.vim can be/is used is causing me to rethink my decision. I imagine it would help me to stay current with the state of ~\.vim. And keeping everything in the home folder related to vim in one place makes sense, too. If I make the change, a minor change to the install path in my vam setup in my .vimrc will result in the paths to all my plugins being updated to the new location.

                    >> Yes, it was taking a closer look at the MacVim package than had previously that led me to ask whether I needed a separate installation. It appears I don't. In any case I don't have it. It's not in \usr\local\bin.
                    >
                    > If you are running OS X, I would be shocked if you didn't have vim at /usr/bin/vim, with the site wide files for the copy of vim at /usr/share/vim. To repeat, the site wide files are separate from your user files. Don't install plugins into the site wide file location. The stuff in .vim IS NOT a separate installation. The stuff you find in /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime is more or less mirrored at /usr/share/vim/vim73. Those two sets of files ARE separate installations of vim; the first corresponding to MacVim, the second to default OS X. The exact path (/usr/share/vim/vim73) might be different if you are running an older version of OS X. 10.5 for example didn't have Vim 7.3, it had 7.2, so the location for runtime files was /usr/share/vim/vim72.

                    My mistake. I looked in \usr\local\bin. In fact, there is an installation in \usr\bin and the files for it are at \usr\share\vim and it is vim72. My Mac was purchased in late 2009, but I'm running snow leopard, and will probably get a new machine later this summer. [Dreading the transition. One the one hand, I don't want to have to start from scratch. On the other hand, imagine I've thrown more than a few wrenches into the gears of the system in the last couple years, and it would be nice to get free of them.]

                    > It's only 'superfluous' for you because you are storing your plugins in a nonstandard location and not using some of the other features that make use of .vim. Or maybe you are using some of those features but just don't realize it. And if you wanted to add ANYTHING customized, outside of what vim-addon-manager provides, you'd have to put it in ~/.vim/ (unless you really reconfigured things). For example, if you add terms to the speller dictionary, they go in ~/.vim/spell. If you use the session.vim plugin to save sessions, it saves it's files in ~/.vim/session. Tweaked color themes go in ~/.vim/colors. Snipmate looks for snippets in ~/.vim/snippets. I could go on, but I think you understand. The way I use vim, there are certain settings and scripts that aren't provided by any existing plugins, and those go into ~/.vim, because that's where Vim looks for such things.
                    >
                    > MacVim expects to find things in ~/.vim, IF you choose to use those capabilities. There's nothing from stopping someone from running plain vanilla (Mac)Vim with no .vimrc or plugins or files in the ~/.vim folder, but the program still looks there for stuff. If you do decide to use those features, Vim and most plugins expect to store and find things in .vim. Notice that vim-addon-manager defaults to ~/.vim/vim-addons? You had to change it to make it use another folder. vim-addon-manager is a very well written plugin where the option to use a different folder has been expose to the end user - a lot of plugins don't provide that.

                    Again, comments all well-taken. Very likely I will collect all my vim-related stuff into ~\.vim as a way to keep myself better informed about its state.

                    Thanks very much for your clear and detailed responses.

                    Sincerely,
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Eric Weir
                    Decatur, GA
                    eeweir@...

                    "What does it mean...that the world is so beautiful?"

                    - Mary Oliver






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                  • Ben Schmidt
                    ... ~/.vim Only the runtime files shipped with Vim are stored in /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime. (The runtime files for the Mac OS X
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 18, 2012
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                      On 13/06/12 7:49 PM, Eric Weir wrote:
                      >
                      > Somehow, when I was getting started with vim, I ended up with a vim installation
                      > to ~\ and a MacVim installation in \Applications. Before I started using
                      > vim-addon-manager I installed plugins to the vim installation.
                      >
                      > If I'm using MacVim, do I actually need the separate vim installation? If not, and
                      > if I had reason to do a manual installation of a plugin---not very likely, but I'm
                      > curious---where would I put it?

                      ~/.vim

                      Only the runtime files shipped with Vim are stored in
                      /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime. (The runtime
                      files for the Mac OS X version of Vim are in /usr/share/vim/vim73 or
                      similar.)

                      In both cases, the user's runtime files go in ~/.vim.

                      The user's vimrc belongs at ~/.vimrc and system ones vary in location.
                      Issuing :version inside Vim can give you more information. :echo $VIM
                      and :echo $VIMRUNTIME and :echo $HOME can help you understand the
                      output, too.

                      Ben.

                      P.S. Probably best not to cross-post. I'm replying only on vim_mac, since this is
                      a fairly Mac-specific question.


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                    • Eric Weir
                      ... Thanks, Ben. That s where I have things. Was under the impression that vim itself was in ~/.vim. I m clear now. ... I ve been admonished about this before,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 18, 2012
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                        On Jun 18, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Ben Schmidt wrote:

                        > Only the runtime files shipped with Vim are stored in
                        > /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime. (The runtime
                        > files for the Mac OS X version of Vim are in /usr/share/vim/vim73 or
                        > similar.)
                        >
                        > In both cases, the user's runtime files go in ~/.vim.
                        >
                        > The user's vimrc belongs at ~/.vimrc and system ones vary in location.
                        > Issuing :version inside Vim can give you more information. :echo $VIM
                        > and :echo $VIMRUNTIME and :echo $HOME can help you understand the
                        > output, too.

                        Thanks, Ben. That's where I have things. Was under the impression that vim itself was in ~/.vim. I'm clear now.

                        > P.S. Probably best not to cross-post. I'm replying only on vim_mac, since this is a fairly Mac-specific question.

                        I've been admonished about this before, and mostly avoid it. I just reposted a vim_mac post to vim_use. It's pretty Mac-specific, but vim_mac seems not to be very active at the moment, and I thought I might get a quicker response here.

                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Eric Weir
                        eeweir@...

                        "Any assurance economists pretend to with
                        regard to cause and effect is merely a pose."

                        - Emanuel Derman






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                      • Ben Schmidt
                        ... Mmm. I think that s why I didn t see all the previous answers, too! They were filed differently because of the cross-posting. Anyway, never mind; no harm
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 18, 2012
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                          On 19/06/12 4:32 AM, Eric Weir wrote:
                          > On Jun 18, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Ben Schmidt wrote:
                          >
                          >> Only the runtime files shipped with Vim are stored in
                          >> /Applications/MacVim.app/Contents/Resources/vim/runtime. (The runtime
                          >> files for the Mac OS X version of Vim are in /usr/share/vim/vim73 or
                          >> similar.)
                          >>
                          >> In both cases, the user's runtime files go in ~/.vim.
                          >>
                          >> The user's vimrc belongs at ~/.vimrc and system ones vary in location.
                          >> Issuing :version inside Vim can give you more information. :echo $VIM
                          >> and :echo $VIMRUNTIME and :echo $HOME can help you understand the
                          >> output, too.
                          >
                          > Thanks, Ben. That's where I have things. Was under the impression that vim itself was in ~/.vim. I'm clear now.
                          >
                          >> P.S. Probably best not to cross-post. I'm replying only on vim_mac, since this is a fairly Mac-specific question.
                          >
                          > I've been admonished about this before, and mostly avoid it. I just reposted a vim_mac post to vim_use. It's pretty Mac-specific, but vim_mac seems not to be very active at the moment, and I thought I might get a quicker response here.

                          Mmm. I think that's why I didn't see all the previous answers, too! They
                          were filed differently because of the cross-posting.

                          Anyway, never mind; no harm done. Glad you've got an answer.

                          Smiles,

                          Ben.



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