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  • John Beckett
    While I m ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting? On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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      While I'm ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone
      want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting?

      On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly friendly reminder to
      top-posters that bottom posting is the convention:
      http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information

      I notice that top posters are becoming more prevalent in
      vim_mac. While I have no concern about how vim_mac runs, it
      occurs to me that some of the regulars here might want to
      express an opinion.

      John


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    • derek@derekwyatt.org
      ... I tend to treat all of the email lists for vim as read-only most of the time because I am generally a very mobile guy and not in front of a computer when
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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        > While I'm ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone
        > want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting?
        >
        > On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly friendly reminder to
        > top-posters that bottom posting is the convention:
        > http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information
        >
        > I notice that top posters are becoming more prevalent in
        > vim_mac. While I have no concern about how vim_mac runs, it
        > occurs to me that some of the regulars here might want to
        > express an opinion.

        I tend to treat all of the email lists for vim as read-only most of the
        time because I am generally a very mobile guy and not in front of a
        computer when the emails come in, but on my BlackBerry. All of this "top
        posting" / "bottom posting" stuff really turns me off. I can't bottom
        post very easily on my BlackBerry (read: it's brutal) and rather than
        having to tell people why I'm not bottom posting, I just prefer to not
        post.

        I understand that there are those that are really concerned about such
        things and spend a *lot* more time participating on these lists than I do,
        so I tend to just let people be - these lists are great and people get a
        lot of great help from them. But in general, I just choose to not
        participate because I find that the "posting style" conversations just
        create noise that eventually drowns out any help I would be able to
        provide anyway - it's better that I don't post :)

        That's my $0.02 - you asked :)

        Regs,
        Derek


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      • björn
        ... Hi John, I for one would appreciate your friendly reminders (indeed, I try to nudge people every now and then myself). This top posting business certainly
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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          2009/9/2 John Beckett:
          >
          > While I'm ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone
          > want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting?
          >
          > On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly friendly reminder to
          > top-posters that bottom posting is the convention:
          > http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information
          >
          > I notice that top posters are becoming more prevalent in
          > vim_mac. While I have no concern about how vim_mac runs, it
          > occurs to me that some of the regulars here might want to
          > express an opinion.

          Hi John,

          I for one would appreciate your friendly reminders (indeed, I try to
          nudge people every now and then myself). This top posting business
          certainly makes my life harder and my hope was that since I respond to
          most MacVim issues people would respect my wishes, but I am guessing
          that most people simply are not aware of the rules/guidelines on this
          list (since they are nowhere clearly stated...although in my
          experience not many people read such things anyway...ah well).

          Anyway, I'll certainly keep responding to posts no matter what the
          poster's posting style. It does help me a lot though if people
          clearly state what it is they are responding to and those who top-post
          seldom do. Obviously this is only a problem on longer threads, so a
          quick top-post to a tiny thread with only one specific issue is not a
          big deal to me.

          Björn

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        • Etienne B. Roesch
          Hi all, This is all very interesting, but as I am new on the list, I am not sure what you mean by top/bottom posting. Can I ask for a quick explanation? Thanks
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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            Hi all,

            This is all very interesting, but as I am new on the list, I am not
            sure what you mean by top/bottom posting. Can I ask for a quick
            explanation? Thanks much!

            ~e


            Le 2 sept. 09 à 14:14, björn a écrit :

            >
            > 2009/9/2 John Beckett:
            >>
            >> While I'm ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone
            >> want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting?
            >>
            >> On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly friendly reminder to
            >> top-posters that bottom posting is the convention:
            >> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information
            >>
            >> I notice that top posters are becoming more prevalent in
            >> vim_mac. While I have no concern about how vim_mac runs, it
            >> occurs to me that some of the regulars here might want to
            >> express an opinion.
            >
            > Hi John,
            >
            > I for one would appreciate your friendly reminders (indeed, I try to
            > nudge people every now and then myself). This top posting business
            > certainly makes my life harder and my hope was that since I respond to
            > most MacVim issues people would respect my wishes, but I am guessing
            > that most people simply are not aware of the rules/guidelines on this
            > list (since they are nowhere clearly stated...although in my
            > experience not many people read such things anyway...ah well).
            >
            > Anyway, I'll certainly keep responding to posts no matter what the
            > poster's posting style. It does help me a lot though if people
            > clearly state what it is they are responding to and those who top-post
            > seldom do. Obviously this is only a problem on longer threads, so a
            > quick top-post to a tiny thread with only one specific issue is not a
            > big deal to me.
            >
            > Björn
            >
            > >


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          • Brian McKee
            ... I prefer bottom posting, but hey, as long as they re polite and motivated I m easy. Feel free to intermittantly send your note. Nitpicking and constant
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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              On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 6:54 AM, John Beckett<johnb.beckett@...> wrote:
              >
              > While I'm ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone
              > want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting?

              I prefer bottom posting, but hey, as long as they're polite and
              motivated I'm easy.
              Feel free to intermittantly send your note.
              Nitpicking and constant harping about it on the other hand is really
              irritating :-)

              Brian

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            • Jeff Horn
              On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Etienne B. ... Touché. ... -- Jeffrey Horn PhD Student in Economics George Mason University (704) 271-4797 jhorn@gmu.edu
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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                On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Etienne B.
                Roesch<etienne.roesch@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi all,
                >
                > This is all very interesting, but as I am new on the list, I am not
                > sure what you mean by top/bottom posting. Can I ask for a quick
                > explanation? Thanks much!
                >
                > ~e

                Touché.

                >
                > Le 2 sept. 09 à 14:14, björn a écrit :
                >
                >>
                >> 2009/9/2 John Beckett:
                >>>
                >>> While I'm ranting on mailing list management issues, does anyone
                >>> want to offer an opinion about top/bottom posting?
                >>>
                >>> On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly friendly reminder to
                >>> top-posters that bottom posting is the convention:
                >>> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information
                >>>
                >>> I notice that top posters are becoming more prevalent in
                >>> vim_mac. While I have no concern about how vim_mac runs, it
                >>> occurs to me that some of the regulars here might want to
                >>> express an opinion.
                >>
                >> Hi John,
                >>
                >> I for one would appreciate your friendly reminders (indeed, I try to
                >> nudge people every now and then myself).  This top posting business
                >> certainly makes my life harder and my hope was that since I respond to
                >> most MacVim issues people would respect my wishes, but I am guessing
                >> that most people simply are not aware of the rules/guidelines on this
                >> list (since they are nowhere clearly stated...although in my
                >> experience not many people read such things anyway...ah well).
                >>
                >> Anyway, I'll certainly keep responding to posts no matter what the
                >> poster's posting style.  It does help me a lot though if people
                >> clearly state what it is they are responding to and those who top-post
                >> seldom do.  Obviously this is only a problem on longer threads, so a
                >> quick top-post to a tiny thread with only one specific issue is not a
                >> big deal to me.
                >>
                >> Björn
                >>
                >> >
                >
                >
                > >
                >



                --
                Jeffrey Horn
                PhD Student in Economics
                George Mason University

                (704) 271-4797
                jhorn@...
                jrhorn424@...

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              • Andy Michaels
                ... Hi Etienne... Assuming your message wasn t sarcasm, top posting refers to replying to a message with your response on top: Your response ... Your response.
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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                  > This is all very interesting, but as I am new on the list, I am not
                  > sure what you mean by top/bottom posting. Can I ask for a quick
                  > explanation? Thanks much!
                  >
                  > ~e

                  Hi Etienne...

                  Assuming your message wasn't sarcasm, top posting refers to replying
                  to a message with your response on top:


                  Your response

                  >> original message


                  Bottom posting is the opposite:


                  >> original message

                  Your response.


                  Or, as you'll sometimes see, bottom posters put their response inline
                  with the original post:


                  >> original post point 1

                  Your response 1

                  >> original post point 2

                  Your response 2

                  etc.

                  In very long threads, the thread is much more easily read if bottom
                  posting is followed, because you read the thread from top to bottom,
                  rather than from bottom up,

                  Hope that helps! If your response was sarcasm, then please ignore this message!

                  -Andy

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                • John Beckett
                  ... I understand that reminders can be even more irritating than people who don t follow local customs, but given Björn s endorsement I will occasionally post
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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                    björn wrote:
                    >> On vim_use, I regularly post a slightly friendly reminder to
                    >> top-posters that bottom posting is the convention:
                    >> http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information
                    >
                    > I for one would appreciate your friendly reminders (indeed, I
                    > try to nudge people every now and then myself). This top
                    > posting business certainly makes my life harder and my hope
                    > was that since I respond to most MacVim issues people would
                    > respect my wishes, but I am guessing that most people simply
                    > are not aware of the rules/guidelines on this list (since
                    > they are nowhere clearly stated...although in my experience
                    > not many people read such things anyway...ah well).

                    I understand that reminders can be even more irritating than
                    people who don't follow local customs, but given Björn's
                    endorsement I will occasionally post my notice.

                    I also appreciate what Derek said in another message, and I
                    would just like to say that I only post the notices because the
                    regulars in vim_use have asked for them.

                    Re the spam message (I don't want to lengthen that thread by
                    replying there): I got confirmation that I had clicked the
                    "spam" button because when I went to investigate the spammer, I
                    found that they were banned on vim_mac (which happens when I
                    click "spam"), but there were 8 other Google Groups (not related
                    to Vim) where the same message appeared. I hope the folks here
                    are not as naive as in some of the other lists: I actually saw
                    someone REPLY to the spam just to let the spammer know that
                    something didn't quite work when they went to play the flash on
                    the spammer's website!!!

                    OMG folks, please never click anything in an email; the spammers
                    don't want only your eyes, they want to own your computer so
                    they can utilise your Internet connection by turning your box
                    into a zombie.

                    John


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                  • Etienne B. Roesch
                    Hi Andy! Not to worry, my question was not sarcasm. I joined vim_mac a few days ago, and was genuinely interested in both the theory of top/bottom responding
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 3, 2009
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                      Hi Andy!

                      Not to worry, my question was not sarcasm. I joined vim_mac a few days
                      ago, and was genuinely interested in both the theory of top/bottom
                      responding AND the local custom.

                      Reading your explanation, I realised that I am myself more of a bottom
                      poster, but that in certain occasions - when the thread contains only
                      one main self-contained point - I naturally switch to top posting, ..
                      as you can see.

                      Anyway, I realise this is a bit off topic, so I'll stop here. I am in
                      favour of reminders if necessary, and I would find it useful if
                      newcomers were sent a description of the so-called local custom upon
                      joining the group. Maybe post it online somewhere? Is there a website
                      for the list?

                      Thank you for your response!

                      ~Etienne


                      Le 3 sept. 09 à 01:40, Andy Michaels a écrit :

                      >
                      >> This is all very interesting, but as I am new on the list, I am not
                      >> sure what you mean by top/bottom posting. Can I ask for a quick
                      >> explanation? Thanks much!
                      >>
                      >> ~e
                      >
                      > Hi Etienne...
                      >
                      > Assuming your message wasn't sarcasm, top posting refers to replying
                      > to a message with your response on top:
                      >
                      >
                      > Your response
                      >
                      >>> original message
                      >
                      >
                      > Bottom posting is the opposite:
                      >
                      >
                      >>> original message
                      >
                      > Your response.
                      >
                      >
                      > Or, as you'll sometimes see, bottom posters put their response inline
                      > with the original post:
                      >
                      >
                      >>> original post point 1
                      >
                      > Your response 1
                      >
                      >>> original post point 2
                      >
                      > Your response 2
                      >
                      > etc.
                      >
                      > In very long threads, the thread is much more easily read if bottom
                      > posting is followed, because you read the thread from top to bottom,
                      > rather than from bottom up,
                      >
                      > Hope that helps! If your response was sarcasm, then please ignore
                      > this message!
                      >
                      > -Andy
                      >
                      > >


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                    • John Beckett
                      ... In principle, there are pages and files at: http://groups.google.com/group/vim_mac However, these are changable only by managers because spammers
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 3, 2009
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                        Etienne B. Roesch wrote:
                        > Anyway, I realise this is a bit off topic, so I'll stop here.
                        > I am in favour of reminders if necessary, and I would find it
                        > useful if newcomers were sent a description of the so-called
                        > local custom upon joining the group. Maybe post it online
                        > somewhere? Is there a website for the list?

                        In principle, there are "pages" and "files" at:
                        http://groups.google.com/group/vim_mac

                        However, these are changable only by managers because spammers
                        totally abused the system (one common trick being to edit a
                        valid link to a page, by changing the link target to an attack
                        page while keeping the descriptive text unchanged).

                        If anyone wants the page updated, let me know.

                        There is one page on the vim_use group that has general stuff,
                        and I will take this opportunity to post my standard message:

                        Reminder to everyone: Please bottom post on this list. Quote a
                        small (relevant) part of the message you are replying to, and
                        put your text underneath.

                        See the list guidelines:
                        http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information

                        John


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                      • Tony Mechelynck
                        On Sep 3, 2:42 pm, John Beckett wrote: [...] ... I know the general lines, but I just went there to read it again attentively.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 21, 2009
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                          On Sep 3, 2:42 pm, "John Beckett" <johnb.beck...@...> wrote:
                          [...]
                          > There is one page on the vim_use group that has general stuff,
                          > and I will take this opportunity to post my standard message:
                          >
                          > Reminder to everyone: Please bottom post on this list. Quote a
                          > small (relevant) part of the message you are replying to, and
                          > put your text underneath.
                          >
                          > See the list guidelines:http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use/web/vim-information
                          >
                          > John

                          I know the general lines, but I just went there to read it again
                          attentively. (People, it's worth it.)

                          The last line made me LOL:

                          «If your expensive gadget can't bottom post, wait until you can find
                          a computer.»

                          though I would maybe not have gone that far. For short posts (about as
                          long as an SMS), including thank-you notes (whose utility is dubious
                          anyway) top- vs. bottom-posting doesn't matter much to me. The longer
                          the quote or the longer the reply, the more trimming and ordering
                          (question _then_ answer, or question then answer then reply to the
                          answer, etc.) are important I'd say.

                          Hm, thinking of it (and of how I'm replying in vim_mac, to which I'm
                          subscribed in "digest" mode, unlike vim_use, vim_dev and vim_multibyte
                          which are sent in full to my inbox), maybe I would have said:

                          «If your expensive gadget can't bottom post in email, have it (or
                          find something that can) browse the Google Groups and their web
                          interface.»

                          I've heard that some handheld devices include true browsers nowadays,
                          so why not use that, if you have to reply to the vim-list while
                          waiting for the bus to arrive? ;-)


                          Best regards,
                          Tony.
                          --
                          Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.

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