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Re: [videoblogging] Pseudo.com and DEN - information about early web-tv-programs?

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  • Joly MacFie
    ... sorry, eventually killed (I think). I used to keep an online bookmark site in those days and you can see my media pages from 98 at
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 16, 2011
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      > Another early NYC webcaster that might be worth a mention is Digital Club
      > Network (DCN) that installed webcams in the city's music venues and webcast
      > concerts daily. Run by Andrew Rasiej it was sold to emusic in the early
      > 2000s and eventually.
      >

      sorry, eventually killed (I think).

      I used to keep an online bookmark site in those days and you can see my
      media pages from 98 at http://home.dti.net/joly/radio/ - not a lot of vid on
      there. You can see the need to differentiate between the various grades of
      real - 1.0,3.0, and the new fangled G2 - the arrival of Microsoft with
      'Netshow', and the beginnings of mp3 streaming with icecast/shoutcast

      <http://home.dti.net/joly/radio/live.html>j
      --
      ---------------------------------------------------------------
      Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
      WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
      http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
      VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
      ---------------------------------------------------------------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joly MacFie
      Oh, and, I d forgotten Xing streamworks - they beat real to the punch with vid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xing_Technology
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 16, 2011
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        Oh, and, I'd forgotten Xing 'streamworks' - they beat real to the punch
        with vid.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xing_Technology

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xing_Technology>j


        --
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
        WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
        http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
        VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
        ---------------------------------------------------------------


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Verdi
        I don t know what the pseudo.com website was like but if you haven t seen We Live in Public you should
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 17, 2011
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          I don't know what the pseudo.com website was like but if you haven't
          seen We Live in Public you should
          https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/We_Live_In_Public
          If you have a netflix account you can stream it.

          - Verdi

          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Jenna <mailto:mail@...>
          > February 15, 2011 5:08 AM
          >
          >
          > Hi there,
          >
          > I am searching (almost desperatly) for information about Pseudo.com,
          > DEN (Digital Entertainment Network - www.den.net) and the German ones
          > like CyberRadioTV and TV1.
          > All of them started their variety of series and nonfictional shows
          > round about 1998. I am especially interested in concrete experiences
          > on the website: How long did one episode last? Which possibilities did
          > you have to interact? Could you watch all of those shows live? And so on.
          >
          > I really hope that someone likes to talk about his impression of those
          > programs.
          >
          > Thanks a lot
          > Ela
          >
          >

          --
          http://michaelverdi.com
          http://talkbot.tv



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jenna
          Thanks a lot for your information so far – and don t break up posting :-). I had already checked out the wayback machine but apart from the titles of the
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 18, 2011
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            Thanks a lot for your information so far – and don't break up posting :-).

            I had already checked out the wayback machine but apart from the titles of the shows I can't find anything helpful as far as I am interested in the videos of the shows and the handling of them by the people.

            @ compumavengal: What are your impressions of the early sites of atom.com and shockwave then? Which content did you prefer and why? Do you mean those animated clown faces with The Angry Kid?

            @ Joly: Your information about the shows themselves is really helpful! Can you remember which shows you preferred and how you used the shows (with interaction or not)?
            Thanks for the technical details and the what'sup-Site (but without sites like atom, pseudo, den? I've found sites like CNN and smaller ones which are not available anymore, e.g. First TV).
            While talking about the first web-video the forerunners like private-cams and the Trojan-Room-coffee-machine are worth to mention as well. Even though they showed stills – but you could always refresh them so that they were a lot closer to video than to photography.

            @ Michael: I have only read about WE LIVE IN PUBLIC. I can't sign up at Netflix because I am from Germany... And there is no DVD at amazon. It's a pity!

            Have a good day!
            Jenna
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Jenna <mailto:mail@...>
            > > February 15, 2011 5:08 AM
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi there,
            > >
            > > I am searching (almost desperatly) for information about Pseudo.com,
            > > DEN (Digital Entertainment Network - www.den.net) and the German ones
            > > like CyberRadioTV and TV1.
            > > All of them started their variety of series and nonfictional shows
            > > round about 1998. I am especially interested in concrete experiences
            > > on the website: How long did one episode last? Which possibilities did
            > > you have to interact? Could you watch all of those shows live? And so on.
            > >
            > > I really hope that someone likes to talk about his impression of those
            > > programs.
            > >
            > > Thanks a lot
            > > Ela
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > http://michaelverdi.com
            > http://talkbot.tv
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Jenna
            Addition: Sorry, I was too fast: The DVD you can buy on amazon, on eBay and on the offical website of We Live In Public (http://interloperfilms.com/store/).
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 18, 2011
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              Addition:
              Sorry, I was too fast: The DVD you can buy on amazon, on eBay and on the offical website of We Live In Public (http://interloperfilms.com/store/).

              Thanks Michael that you reminded me of the project - I have just bought it.
            • Jay dedman
              ... This is why god made torrents: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5451797/We_Live_in_Public[2009]DvDrip[Eng]-FXG Jay
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 18, 2011
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                > @ Michael: I have only read about WE LIVE IN PUBLIC. I can't sign up at Netflix because I am from Germany... And there is no DVD >at amazon. It's a pity!

                This is why god made torrents:
                http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5451797/We_Live_in_Public%5b2009]DvDrip[Eng]-FXG

                Jay
              • compumavengal
                I ll have to knock the cobwebs off that part of my brain, it was a long time ago. I ll try to keep it short and relevant for the group but this is a part of
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 18, 2011
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                  I'll have to knock the cobwebs off that part of my brain, it was a long time ago. I'll try to keep it short and relevant for the group but this is a part of our history.

                  It was the time of 56k modems of 160x120 videos just slowly moving into 320x240. For the original content it was the Flash animation movies and music video parodies at Shockwave.com that I was attracted to like "I Want A Fat Babe" and "Mime After Mime (I think)"

                  You had to let the video buffer completely before you could view anything. And you had to have Real Player, QuickTime and Windows Media Player.

                  At Atom.com and one other other site, I can't remember the name they had actual videos in addition to flash animation. There were short films and animations, many from Europe, that must have been created for film festivals. Beautiful work that was worth trying to buffering.

                  There were also what we now call web series, mainly animated via Flash or stop motion. Not sure if this was true at Atom.com but at one of the sites you could rate the video and comment.

                  The comments were not as outrageous as on YouTube. You had trolls but not near as vicious as now. There were ads but only on some of the videos, very few in the early days.

                  I think at some point the more viewers a video had helped the creator get money from the site or the ads. That happened later, maybe before the Dotcom bust.

                  Atom.com did have categories so that if I wanted to watch a sci-fi video I could click to see what was new. Because of the bandwidth I stuck with the flash animation movies most of the time.

                  When CG software became more affordable there were people testing their skills in short videos. I remember a live action/CG Silver Surfer video that was really well done. Way before contemporary CG software.

                  There was not a lot of personal or talking head videos. There were a lot of people posting music videos from MTV and other sources.

                  There were other kinds of user generated content, there was another site or person that that let you download software to create 8k and 16k animations and then upload it. Most of that content was splatter vision but it user generated.

                  And of course there was much video regarding the exploration of the Delta of Venus and the Poking of Pluto.

                  I'll stop now. ;-)

                  Gena
                  http://createvideonotebook.blogspot.com
                  http://outonthestoop.blogspot.com

                  --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna" <mail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks a lot for your information so far – and don't break up posting :-).
                  >
                  > I had already checked out the wayback machine but apart from the titles of the shows I can't find anything helpful as far as I am interested in the videos of the shows and the handling of them by the people.
                  >
                  > @ compumavengal: What are your impressions of the early sites of atom.com and shockwave then? Which content did you prefer and why? Do you mean those animated clown faces with The Angry Kid?
                  >
                  > @ Joly: Your information about the shows themselves is really helpful! Can you remember which shows you preferred and how you used the shows (with interaction or not)?
                  > Thanks for the technical details and the what'sup-Site (but without sites like atom, pseudo, den? I've found sites like CNN and smaller ones which are not available anymore, e.g. First TV).
                  > While talking about the first web-video the forerunners like private-cams and the Trojan-Room-coffee-machine are worth to mention as well. Even though they showed stills – but you could always refresh them so that they were a lot closer to video than to photography.
                  >
                  > @ Michael: I have only read about WE LIVE IN PUBLIC. I can't sign up at Netflix because I am from Germany... And there is no DVD at amazon. It's a pity!
                  >
                  > Have a good day!
                  > Jenna
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > Jenna <mailto:mail@>
                  > > > February 15, 2011 5:08 AM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi there,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am searching (almost desperatly) for information about Pseudo.com,
                  > > > DEN (Digital Entertainment Network - www.den.net) and the German ones
                  > > > like CyberRadioTV and TV1.
                  > > > All of them started their variety of series and nonfictional shows
                  > > > round about 1998. I am especially interested in concrete experiences
                  > > > on the website: How long did one episode last? Which possibilities did
                  > > > you have to interact? Could you watch all of those shows live? And so on.
                  > > >
                  > > > I really hope that someone likes to talk about his impression of those
                  > > > programs.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks a lot
                  > > > Ela
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > http://michaelverdi.com
                  > > http://talkbot.tv
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Jenna
                  Hi again, first of all thanks to Gena. Your post was a helpful description of the video situation around 1998. Thanks! One more question to Pseudo, DEN, DCN
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 25, 2011
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                    Hi again,

                    first of all thanks to Gena. Your post was a helpful description of the video situation around 1998. Thanks!

                    One more question to Pseudo, DEN, DCN and the German equivalents: It seems that all of the non-fictional shows were streamed in real-time. Is that right?

                    Regards
                    Jenna


                    --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "compumavengal" <compumavengal@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I'll have to knock the cobwebs off that part of my brain, it was a long time ago. I'll try to keep it short and relevant for the group but this is a part of our history.
                    >
                    > It was the time of 56k modems of 160x120 videos just slowly moving into 320x240. For the original content it was the Flash animation movies and music video parodies at Shockwave.com that I was attracted to like "I Want A Fat Babe" and "Mime After Mime (I think)"
                    >
                    > You had to let the video buffer completely before you could view anything. And you had to have Real Player, QuickTime and Windows Media Player.
                    >
                    > At Atom.com and one other other site, I can't remember the name they had actual videos in addition to flash animation. There were short films and animations, many from Europe, that must have been created for film festivals. Beautiful work that was worth trying to buffering.
                    >
                    > There were also what we now call web series, mainly animated via Flash or stop motion. Not sure if this was true at Atom.com but at one of the sites you could rate the video and comment.
                    >
                    > The comments were not as outrageous as on YouTube. You had trolls but not near as vicious as now. There were ads but only on some of the videos, very few in the early days.
                    >
                    > I think at some point the more viewers a video had helped the creator get money from the site or the ads. That happened later, maybe before the Dotcom bust.
                    >
                    > Atom.com did have categories so that if I wanted to watch a sci-fi video I could click to see what was new. Because of the bandwidth I stuck with the flash animation movies most of the time.
                    >
                    > When CG software became more affordable there were people testing their skills in short videos. I remember a live action/CG Silver Surfer video that was really well done. Way before contemporary CG software.
                    >
                    > There was not a lot of personal or talking head videos. There were a lot of people posting music videos from MTV and other sources.
                    >
                    > There were other kinds of user generated content, there was another site or person that that let you download software to create 8k and 16k animations and then upload it. Most of that content was splatter vision but it user generated.
                    >
                    > And of course there was much video regarding the exploration of the Delta of Venus and the Poking of Pluto.
                    >
                    > I'll stop now. ;-)
                    >
                    > Gena
                    > http://createvideonotebook.blogspot.com
                    > http://outonthestoop.blogspot.com
                    >
                    > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna" <mail@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thanks a lot for your information so far – and don't break up posting :-).
                    > >
                    > > I had already checked out the wayback machine but apart from the titles of the shows I can't find anything helpful as far as I am interested in the videos of the shows and the handling of them by the people.
                    > >
                    > > @ compumavengal: What are your impressions of the early sites of atom.com and shockwave then? Which content did you prefer and why? Do you mean those animated clown faces with The Angry Kid?
                    > >
                    > > @ Joly: Your information about the shows themselves is really helpful! Can you remember which shows you preferred and how you used the shows (with interaction or not)?
                    > > Thanks for the technical details and the what'sup-Site (but without sites like atom, pseudo, den? I've found sites like CNN and smaller ones which are not available anymore, e.g. First TV).
                    > > While talking about the first web-video the forerunners like private-cams and the Trojan-Room-coffee-machine are worth to mention as well. Even though they showed stills – but you could always refresh them so that they were a lot closer to video than to photography.
                    > >
                    > > @ Michael: I have only read about WE LIVE IN PUBLIC. I can't sign up at Netflix because I am from Germany... And there is no DVD at amazon. It's a pity!
                    > >
                    > > Have a good day!
                    > > Jenna
                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Jenna <mailto:mail@>
                    > > > > February 15, 2011 5:08 AM
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi there,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am searching (almost desperatly) for information about Pseudo.com,
                    > > > > DEN (Digital Entertainment Network - www.den.net) and the German ones
                    > > > > like CyberRadioTV and TV1.
                    > > > > All of them started their variety of series and nonfictional shows
                    > > > > round about 1998. I am especially interested in concrete experiences
                    > > > > on the website: How long did one episode last? Which possibilities did
                    > > > > you have to interact? Could you watch all of those shows live? And so on.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I really hope that someone likes to talk about his impression of those
                    > > > > programs.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks a lot
                    > > > > Ela
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --
                    > > > http://michaelverdi.com
                    > > > http://talkbot.tv
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Joly MacFie
                    Can t speak to DEN, but for the others, yes. Then instantly archived and available on demand. j ... -- ... Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 25, 2011
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                      Can't speak to DEN, but for the others, yes. Then instantly archived and
                      available on demand.

                      j



                      On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Jenna <mail@...> wrote:

                      > Hi again,
                      >
                      > first of all thanks to Gena. Your post was a helpful description of the
                      > video situation around 1998. Thanks!
                      >
                      > One more question to Pseudo, DEN, DCN and the German equivalents: It seems
                      > that all of the non-fictional shows were streamed in real-time. Is that
                      > right?
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > Jenna
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "compumavengal" <compumavengal@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'll have to knock the cobwebs off that part of my brain, it was a long
                      > time ago. I'll try to keep it short and relevant for the group but this is a
                      > part of our history.
                      > >
                      > > It was the time of 56k modems of 160x120 videos just slowly moving into
                      > 320x240. For the original content it was the Flash animation movies and
                      > music video parodies at Shockwave.com that I was attracted to like "I Want A
                      > Fat Babe" and "Mime After Mime (I think)"
                      > >
                      > > You had to let the video buffer completely before you could view
                      > anything. And you had to have Real Player, QuickTime and Windows Media
                      > Player.
                      > >
                      > > At Atom.com and one other other site, I can't remember the name they had
                      > actual videos in addition to flash animation. There were short films and
                      > animations, many from Europe, that must have been created for film
                      > festivals. Beautiful work that was worth trying to buffering.
                      > >
                      > > There were also what we now call web series, mainly animated via Flash or
                      > stop motion. Not sure if this was true at Atom.com but at one of the sites
                      > you could rate the video and comment.
                      > >
                      > > The comments were not as outrageous as on YouTube. You had trolls but not
                      > near as vicious as now. There were ads but only on some of the videos, very
                      > few in the early days.
                      > >
                      > > I think at some point the more viewers a video had helped the creator get
                      > money from the site or the ads. That happened later, maybe before the Dotcom
                      > bust.
                      > >
                      > > Atom.com did have categories so that if I wanted to watch a sci-fi video
                      > I could click to see what was new. Because of the bandwidth I stuck with the
                      > flash animation movies most of the time.
                      > >
                      > > When CG software became more affordable there were people testing their
                      > skills in short videos. I remember a live action/CG Silver Surfer video that
                      > was really well done. Way before contemporary CG software.
                      > >
                      > > There was not a lot of personal or talking head videos. There were a lot
                      > of people posting music videos from MTV and other sources.
                      > >
                      > > There were other kinds of user generated content, there was another site
                      > or person that that let you download software to create 8k and 16k
                      > animations and then upload it. Most of that content was splatter vision but
                      > it user generated.
                      > >
                      > > And of course there was much video regarding the exploration of the Delta
                      > of Venus and the Poking of Pluto.
                      > >
                      > > I'll stop now. ;-)
                      > >
                      > > Gena
                      > > http://createvideonotebook.blogspot.com
                      > > http://outonthestoop.blogspot.com
                      > >
                      > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna" <mail@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks a lot for your information so far � and don't break up posting
                      > :-).
                      > > >
                      > > > I had already checked out the wayback machine but apart from the titles
                      > of the shows I can't find anything helpful as far as I am interested in the
                      > videos of the shows and the handling of them by the people.
                      > > >
                      > > > @ compumavengal: What are your impressions of the early sites of
                      > atom.com and shockwave then? Which content did you prefer and why? Do you
                      > mean those animated clown faces with The Angry Kid?
                      > > >
                      > > > @ Joly: Your information about the shows themselves is really helpful!
                      > Can you remember which shows you preferred and how you used the shows (with
                      > interaction or not)?
                      > > > Thanks for the technical details and the what'sup-Site (but without
                      > sites like atom, pseudo, den? I've found sites like CNN and smaller ones
                      > which are not available anymore, e.g. First TV).
                      > > > While talking about the first web-video the forerunners like
                      > private-cams and the Trojan-Room-coffee-machine are worth to mention as
                      > well. Even though they showed stills � but you could always refresh them so
                      > that they were a lot closer to video than to photography.
                      > > >
                      > > > @ Michael: I have only read about WE LIVE IN PUBLIC. I can't sign up at
                      > Netflix because I am from Germany... And there is no DVD at amazon. It's a
                      > pity!
                      > > >
                      > > > Have a good day!
                      > > > Jenna
                      > > >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Jenna <mailto:mail@>
                      > > > > > February 15, 2011 5:08 AM
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi there,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I am searching (almost desperatly) for information about
                      > Pseudo.com,
                      > > > > > DEN (Digital Entertainment Network - www.den.net) and the German
                      > ones
                      > > > > > like CyberRadioTV and TV1.
                      > > > > > All of them started their variety of series and nonfictional shows
                      > > > > > round about 1998. I am especially interested in concrete
                      > experiences
                      > > > > > on the website: How long did one episode last? Which possibilities
                      > did
                      > > > > > you have to interact? Could you watch all of those shows live? And
                      > so on.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I really hope that someone likes to talk about his impression of
                      > those
                      > > > > > programs.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thanks a lot
                      > > > > > Ela
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --
                      > > > > http://michaelverdi.com
                      > > > > http://talkbot.tv
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
                      WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
                      http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                      VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joly MacFie
                      The arrival of atom and ifilm around was the first time VOD really took off, and the realization that shorts, until then a ghetto category in the film
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 25, 2011
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                        The arrival of atom and ifilm around was the first time VOD really took off,
                        and the realization that shorts, until then a ghetto category in the film
                        business, would become a predominant form on the Internet.

                        The first big hit short I can recall was called More. I remember demoing it
                        over and over to indicate the power of online vid..
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_(1998_film)



                        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_(1998_film)>j

                        --
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
                        WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
                        http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                        VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joly MacFie
                        around 99 ... -- ... Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com VP (Admin) -
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 25, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          around 99

                          On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > The arrival of atom and ifilm around was the first time VOD really took
                          > off, and the realization that shorts, until then a ghetto category in the
                          > film business, would become a predominant form on the Internet.
                          >
                          > The first big hit short I can recall was called More. I remember demoing it
                          > over and over to indicate the power of online vid..
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_(1998_film)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_(1998_film)>j
                          >
                          > --
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          > Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
                          > WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
                          > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                          > VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          >



                          --
                          ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
                          WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
                          http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                          VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org
                          ---------------------------------------------------------------


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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