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Re: [videoblogging] 2010 the year of the flip?

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  • Joly MacFie
    I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational - it s like the brownie cam of videoblogging.. It s not just the cam but also the flipshare
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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      I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational -
      it's like the brownie cam of videoblogging..

      It's not just the cam but also the flipshare software/service that
      comes with it...

      It's pretty much idiot-proof..

      j

      On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...> wrote:
      > On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:42 AM, elbowsofdeath <steve@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Belated new years greetings to all, Ive not been keeping up with the list much in the last year or so but am back again for now...
      >>
      --
      ---------------------------------------------------------------
      Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast
      WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
      http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
      ---------------------------------------------------------------
    • Jim Turner
      I bought two when they came out. One didnt work out of the box and the other is now dead. I am headed to the Kodak Zi8 and it has mic in. Jim ... -- Jim
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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        I bought two when they came out. One didnt work out of the box and the
        other is now dead.

        I am headed to the Kodak Zi8 and it has mic in.


        Jim

        On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational -
        > it's like the brownie cam of videoblogging..
        >
        > It's not just the cam but also the flipshare software/service that
        > comes with it...
        >
        > It's pretty much idiot-proof..
        >
        > j
        >
        > On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...<david.jones%40altium.com>>
        > wrote:
        > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:42 AM, elbowsofdeath <steve@...<steve%40dvmachine.com>>
        > wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Belated new years greetings to all, Ive not been keeping up with the
        > list much in the last year or so but am back again for now...
        > >>
        > --
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast
        > WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
        > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >



        --
        Jim Turner
        One By One Media, LLC
        www.onebyonemedia.com
        www.bloggersforhire.com
        @Genuine
        this email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bohuš
        ... I ve got four of them, and I did have one croak on me during an upgrade. Their software zorched the firmware during the upgrade. I think that it was part
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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          Jim Turner wrote:
          > I bought two when they came out. One didnt work out of the box and the
          > other is now dead.
          >

          I've got four of them, and I did have one croak on me during an
          upgrade. Their software zorched the firmware during the upgrade. I
          think that it was part of a known problem at the time. Flip reluctantly
          replaced the camera, though it was out of warranty. I have been
          unexpectedly happy with the results of those cameras. I'm mostly
          accustomed to pro stuff, and this has encouraged me to be way more
          spontaneous with shooting than normal.
          > I am headed to the Kodak Zi8 and it has mic in.
          >
          I have this one as well. The mic jack is very nice. It's SO close to
          being the perfect pocket camera... The VU meter doesn't stay on while
          you're recording, and I found it to be pretty inaccurate. I recorded a
          whole conference with one, and the audio all came out pretty crummy even
          though the VU meters showed that I was well below distorting.

          My other complaint is that there's no way to connect a headphone up or a
          monitor while you're recording. Plugging anything into that jack
          automatically shunts the camera into playback mode.

          One more thing. The 1080 mode isn't ready for primetime yet. While
          we're all used to there being some shearing with left and right rapid
          movement of the camera, at 1080 it doesn't take much at all to get the
          image to get VERY wonky. If you're filming a talking head against a
          static background, you'll be fine. Anything else and you'll really
          exaggerate the shearing.

          Using it as a 5MP camera is an unexpected bonus. I'm not a camera phone
          guy, so this is the first time I feel like I hav a camera with me
          anywhere I go. The macro function is GREAT too. For my website at
          retrothing.com I do a lot of closeups of gadgets. I think that this
          camera will come in very handy for that.

          For what it costs, it's pretty amazing. I will do a video review of it
          one of these days, especially pitting it against the Flip HD. Both have
          very pleasing pictures, and both yield video formats that are hard for
          me ot edit (GRRRR). I'm also interested in the Sanyo camera. Can't
          recall the model # - it's something 2000 I think. It's ability to use
          external mics and larger lens really interest me.



          --
          --
          Bohus Blahut
          (BOH-hoosh BLAH-hoot)

          modern filmmaker
        • compumavengal
          I stumbled into Retro Thing a few days ago, it took me two hours to find my way out. Seriously, I was deep in the archives. Retro camcorders and assemble edit
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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            I stumbled into Retro Thing a few days ago, it took me two hours to find my way out. Seriously, I was deep in the archives.

            Retro camcorders and assemble edit systems? Oh my I was having a public access tv flashback!

            Way cool,

            Gena
            http://createvideonotebook.blogspot.com

            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Bohuš <bohus@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jim Turner wrote:
            > > I bought two when they came out. One didnt work out of the box and the
            > > other is now dead.
            > >
            >
            > I've got four of them, and I did have one croak on me during an
            > upgrade. Their software zorched the firmware during the upgrade. I
            > think that it was part of a known problem at the time. Flip reluctantly
            > replaced the camera, though it was out of warranty. I have been
            > unexpectedly happy with the results of those cameras. I'm mostly
            > accustomed to pro stuff, and this has encouraged me to be way more
            > spontaneous with shooting than normal.
            > > I am headed to the Kodak Zi8 and it has mic in.
            > >
            > I have this one as well. The mic jack is very nice. It's SO close to
            > being the perfect pocket camera... The VU meter doesn't stay on while
            > you're recording, and I found it to be pretty inaccurate. I recorded a
            > whole conference with one, and the audio all came out pretty crummy even
            > though the VU meters showed that I was well below distorting.
            >
            > My other complaint is that there's no way to connect a headphone up or a
            > monitor while you're recording. Plugging anything into that jack
            > automatically shunts the camera into playback mode.
            >
            > One more thing. The 1080 mode isn't ready for primetime yet. While
            > we're all used to there being some shearing with left and right rapid
            > movement of the camera, at 1080 it doesn't take much at all to get the
            > image to get VERY wonky. If you're filming a talking head against a
            > static background, you'll be fine. Anything else and you'll really
            > exaggerate the shearing.
            >
            > Using it as a 5MP camera is an unexpected bonus. I'm not a camera phone
            > guy, so this is the first time I feel like I hav a camera with me
            > anywhere I go. The macro function is GREAT too. For my website at
            > retrothing.com I do a lot of closeups of gadgets. I think that this
            > camera will come in very handy for that.
            >
            > For what it costs, it's pretty amazing. I will do a video review of it
            > one of these days, especially pitting it against the Flip HD. Both have
            > very pleasing pictures, and both yield video formats that are hard for
            > me ot edit (GRRRR). I'm also interested in the Sanyo camera. Can't
            > recall the model # - it's something 2000 I think. It's ability to use
            > external mics and larger lens really interest me.
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > --
            > Bohus Blahut
            > (BOH-hoosh BLAH-hoot)
            >
            > modern filmmaker
            >
          • David Jones
            ... Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2000 I have the HD1010 which is almost identical in terms of feature set for most practical uses, and a fair bit cheaper. The lens and
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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              2010/1/12 Bohuš <bohus@...>:
              > For what it costs, it's pretty amazing.  I will do a video review of it
              > one of these days, especially pitting it against the Flip HD.  Both have
              > very pleasing pictures, and both yield video formats that are hard for
              > me ot edit (GRRRR).  I'm also interested in the Sanyo camera.  Can't
              > recall the model # - it's something 2000 I think.  It's ability to use
              > external mics and larger lens really interest me.

              Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2000
              I have the HD1010 which is almost identical in terms of feature set
              for most practical uses, and a fair bit cheaper.
              The lens and sensor size are streets ahead of any pocket cam, and it
              supports add-on lenses.

              Dave.
            • Joly MacFie
              But this is my point, the flipHD fits in the pocket, costs $150, and all the editing one might need is built in to the software - hey it even has magic movie
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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                But this is my point, the flipHD fits in the pocket, costs $150, and
                all the editing one might need is built in to the software - hey it
                even has "magic movie" to make your edit decisions! It's instant
                videoblogging for the masses!


                Add-on lenses, plug in microphones, forgeddaboutit!
                j

                On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:10 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...> wrote:
                > 2010/1/12 Bohuš <bohus@...>:
                >> For what it costs, it's pretty amazing.  I will do a video review of it
                >> one of these days, especially pitting it against the Flip HD.  Both have
                >> very pleasing pictures, and both yield video formats that are hard for
                >> me ot edit (GRRRR).  I'm also interested in the Sanyo camera.  Can't
                >> recall the model # - it's something 2000 I think.  It's ability to use
                >> external mics and larger lens really interest me.
                >
                > Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2000
                > I have the HD1010 which is almost identical in terms of feature set
                > for most practical uses, and a fair bit cheaper.
                > The lens and sensor size are streets ahead of any pocket cam, and it
                > supports add-on lenses.
                >
                > Dave.
                >
                >

                --
                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast
                WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
                http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                ---------------------------------------------------------------
              • David Jones
                ... the masses don t want to carry around yet another device! Dave.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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                  On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > But this is my point, the flipHD fits in the pocket, costs $150, and
                  > all the editing one might need is built in to the software - hey it
                  > even has "magic movie" to make your edit decisions! It's instant
                  > videoblogging for the masses!

                  "the masses" don't want to carry around yet another device!

                  Dave.
                • Bohuš
                  ... Interesting. I ll bear that in mind. ... That s the thing that really interests me. It s funny... for years I ve used Canon s line of cameras with
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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                    David Jones wrote:
                    > Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2000
                    > I have the HD1010 which is almost identical in terms of feature set
                    > for most practical uses, and a fair bit cheaper.
                    >

                    Interesting. I'll bear that in mind.
                    > The lens and sensor size are streets ahead of any pocket cam, and it
                    > supports add-on lenses.
                    >

                    That's the thing that really interests me. It's funny... for years I've
                    used Canon's line of cameras with removable lenses, but I've never been
                    able to afford the lenses! I just recently bought a pair of more
                    consumer oriented Canon HDV cameras used, got 'em really cheap. The
                    seller basically sold me his whole outfit with lots f spare bits, and my
                    favorite is the screw-on fisheye adapters. He's a still camera so he
                    some pretty high standard for this stuff. He sort of put down the
                    quality of these add-ons, but I'm as pleased as punch. In film school,
                    I was a little too into shooting wide-angle, and had to give that up
                    when I entered video.

                    So, I definitely want to play with the Xacti, especially with the extra
                    lenses. I've been trying to interest a few magazines into having me a
                    do a pocket cam shootout, but since these aren't seen as very pro I
                    haven't been very successful in pitching the article.

                    BTW I just had an article puvblished about Macro videography in
                    Videomaker if any of you might be interested.

                    http://www.videomaker.com/article/14745/

                    --
                    --
                    Bohus Blahut
                    (BOH-hoosh BLAH-hoot)

                    modern filmmaker
                  • Rupert Howe
                    True. But that s the very reason I see more and more people with Flips and Kodaks. They like the idea of this phone-like flat object to slip in the pocket,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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                      True. But that's the very reason I see more and more people with
                      Flips and Kodaks. They like the idea of this phone-like flat object
                      to slip in the pocket, that does both photos and HD video.

                      They don't want separate chunky video camera and stills camera, if
                      they can have both in one.

                      Up til now, people have assumed all-in-one devices are sub-standard -
                      eg that the video on a Canon pocket stills camera can't be any good -
                      when actually, it's probably brighter and clearer than their $400
                      video camera.

                      Hard for most people to choose between Flip and Kodak, though. The
                      extra features like mic in don't mean much to them.

                      Rupert
                      http://twittervlog.tv


                      On 12 Jan 2010, at 03:19, David Jones wrote:

                      > On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > But this is my point, the flipHD fits in the pocket, costs $150, and
                      > > all the editing one might need is built in to the software - hey it
                      > > even has "magic movie" to make your edit decisions! It's instant
                      > > videoblogging for the masses!
                      >
                      > "the masses" don't want to carry around yet another device!
                      >
                      > Dave.
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Jones
                      I think you missed my point on that one a tad. the masses do not want to carry a second device at all, be it a still camera, video camera, or MP3
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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                        I think you missed my point on that one a tad. "the masses" do not
                        want to carry a second device at all, be it a still camera, video
                        camera, or MP3 player/iPod, everything is and will ultimately converge
                        to the mobile phone.

                        But yes, I agree, your points are valid.

                        Dave.


                        On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Rupert Howe <rupert@...> wrote:
                        > True.  But that's the very reason I see more and more people with
                        > Flips and Kodaks.  They like the idea of this phone-like flat object
                        > to slip in the pocket, that does both photos and HD video.
                        >
                        > They don't want separate chunky video camera and stills camera, if
                        > they can have both in one.
                        >
                        > Up til now, people have assumed all-in-one devices are sub-standard -
                        > eg that the video on a Canon pocket stills camera can't be any good -
                        > when actually, it's probably brighter and clearer than their $400
                        > video camera.
                        >
                        > Hard for most people to choose between Flip and Kodak, though.  The
                        > extra features like mic in don't mean much to them.
                        >
                        > Rupert
                        > http://twittervlog.tv
                        >
                        >
                        > On 12 Jan 2010, at 03:19, David Jones wrote:
                        >
                        >> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@...>
                        >> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > But this is my point, the flipHD fits in the pocket, costs $150, and
                        >> > all the editing one might need is built in to the software - hey it
                        >> > even has "magic movie" to make your edit decisions! It's instant
                        >> > videoblogging for the masses!
                        >>
                        >> "the masses" don't want to carry around yet another device!
                        >>
                        >> Dave.
                      • Rupert Howe
                        Sorry, I edited out the line from mine where I said that I thought the masses still don t really want a phone that does video. Most people I know don t
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 11, 2010
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                          Sorry, I edited out the line from mine where I said that I thought
                          "the masses" still don't really want a phone that does video. Most
                          people I know don't want a complicated phone. They make do stills
                          from their phone because it's convenient, but view video differently -
                          they want good quality, and they don't trust phone video for that
                          (quite rightly, so far).

                          And a Nokia phone that costs many hundreds of pounds/dollars isn't
                          attractive to them. iPhone obviously attracts some people - but those
                          people generally still want a good video camera as well that shoots HD.

                          For years, I've been trying to persuade people to use the video
                          function on their stills cameras instead of buying a separate
                          camcorder - but they still go out and spend a couple of hundred on a
                          crappy quality Sony or Panasonic.

                          Now that HD is all the rage, they're more likely to buy separate
                          devices. That's why I say, a good quality small flat two-in-one
                          camera and camcorder is attractive.

                          I'm sure in time there'll be expensive smartphones that shoot HD, but
                          my guess is that "the masses" will still want a separate HD video and
                          photo device as well.

                          Rupert
                          http://twittervlog.tv

                          On 12 Jan 2010, at 06:37, David Jones wrote:

                          > I think you missed my point on that one a tad. "the masses" do not
                          > want to carry a second device at all, be it a still camera, video
                          > camera, or MP3 player/iPod, everything is and will ultimately converge
                          > to the mobile phone.
                          >
                          > But yes, I agree, your points are valid.
                          >
                          > Dave.
                          >
                          > On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Rupert Howe <rupert@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > True. But that's the very reason I see more and more people with
                          > > Flips and Kodaks. They like the idea of this phone-like flat object
                          > > to slip in the pocket, that does both photos and HD video.
                          > >
                          > > They don't want separate chunky video camera and stills camera, if
                          > > they can have both in one.
                          > >
                          > > Up til now, people have assumed all-in-one devices are sub-
                          > standard -
                          > > eg that the video on a Canon pocket stills camera can't be any
                          > good -
                          > > when actually, it's probably brighter and clearer than their $400
                          > > video camera.
                          > >
                          > > Hard for most people to choose between Flip and Kodak, though. The
                          > > extra features like mic in don't mean much to them.
                          > >
                          > > Rupert
                          > > http://twittervlog.tv
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On 12 Jan 2010, at 03:19, David Jones wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@...>
                          > >> wrote:
                          > >> >
                          > >> > But this is my point, the flipHD fits in the pocket, costs
                          > $150, and
                          > >> > all the editing one might need is built in to the software -
                          > hey it
                          > >> > even has "magic movie" to make your edit decisions! It's instant
                          > >> > videoblogging for the masses!
                          > >>
                          > >> "the masses" don't want to carry around yet another device!
                          > >>
                          > >> Dave.
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Chad Boeninger
                          I recall when David first got his Xacti, he had to do some leg work to figure out the best ways to edit the MP4 file format of the Xacti with his current video
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 12, 2010
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                            I recall when David first got his Xacti, he had to do some leg work to
                            figure out the best ways to edit the MP4 file format of the Xacti with his
                            current video editing software. From looking at his video blog, David is a
                            smart guy, and he knew where to go (this list, for example) when trying to
                            solve his problems with the encoding process. I would argue that most
                            people are not like David. They want something that works out of the box
                            and is easy to use. They don't want to do a lot of pre-encoding or
                            processing just to be able to edit there films. That is the real beauty of
                            the Flip and Kodak series cameras. Anyone can create video whenever they
                            want without spending a whole lot of time and effort on the process. I've
                            had one for almost two years, and it is almost always in my pocket. It's
                            since been replaced by a Canon SD780 point and shoot, but I still use the
                            Flip quite a bit, particularly in places where I might lose or damage my
                            camera (roller coasters and bike rides come to mind). The Flipshare software
                            is also very easy to use, and has a lot of features that *most* users will
                            appreciate. Take a look at
                            http://libraryvoice.com/technology/beyond-the-lens-the-real-power-of-the-flip-camerafor
                            a write-up I did on the FlipShare software. The format factor and the
                            built-in software make the Flip and Kodak very attractive for the masses.
                            Power to the people, or something like that.

                            Take care,
                            Chad

                            2010/1/11 Bohuš <bohus@...>

                            >
                            >
                            > David Jones wrote:
                            > > Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2000
                            > > I have the HD1010 which is almost identical in terms of feature set
                            > > for most practical uses, and a fair bit cheaper.
                            > >
                            >
                            > Interesting. I'll bear that in mind.
                            >
                            > > The lens and sensor size are streets ahead of any pocket cam, and it
                            > > supports add-on lenses.
                            > >
                            >
                            > That's the thing that really interests me. It's funny... for years I've
                            > used Canon's line of cameras with removable lenses, but I've never been
                            > able to afford the lenses! I just recently bought a pair of more
                            > consumer oriented Canon HDV cameras used, got 'em really cheap. The
                            > seller basically sold me his whole outfit with lots f spare bits, and my
                            > favorite is the screw-on fisheye adapters. He's a still camera so he
                            > some pretty high standard for this stuff. He sort of put down the
                            > quality of these add-ons, but I'm as pleased as punch. In film school,
                            > I was a little too into shooting wide-angle, and had to give that up
                            > when I entered video.
                            >
                            > So, I definitely want to play with the Xacti, especially with the extra
                            > lenses. I've been trying to interest a few magazines into having me a
                            > do a pocket cam shootout, but since these aren't seen as very pro I
                            > haven't been very successful in pitching the article.
                            >
                            > BTW I just had an article puvblished about Macro videography in
                            > Videomaker if any of you might be interested.
                            >
                            > http://www.videomaker.com/article/14745/
                            >
                            > --
                            > --
                            > Bohus Blahut
                            > (BOH-hoosh BLAH-hoot)
                            >
                            > modern filmmaker
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            Chad F. Boeninger
                            libraryvoice.com - blog
                            libraryvoice.com/videos - videoblog
                            twitter.com/cfboeninger


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David Jones
                            ... Whilst it s true that it took me some time to get my system working, technically it was not a problem with the Xacti. The HD (1280x720 is what I shoot
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 12, 2010
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                              On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Chad Boeninger <cfboeninger@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I recall when David first got his Xacti, he had to do some leg work to
                              > figure out the best ways to edit the MP4 file format of the Xacti with his
                              > current video editing software.

                              Whilst it's true that it took me some time to get my system working,
                              technically it was not a problem with the Xacti.
                              The HD (1280x720 is what I shoot because that's what YouTube wants)
                              MP4 files the Xacti produces were fully compatible with every program
                              I ever tried.
                              So it's not a matter of file compatibility, it's a matter of being
                              able to actually edit HD MP4 files directly, and I believe this is a
                              common problem regardless of what camera you use. The Xacti actually
                              helps in this matter because it produces widely compatible MP4 files.

                              BTW, my editing process is still not completely smooth, it can be
                              quite jerky and unresponsive at random times, but I've put that down
                              to my "ordinary" machine and the price to pay for editing HD MP4
                              directly. At least I've got it working when almost everyone else told
                              me I was crazy for even trying to edit HD MP4 directly!

                              > From looking at his video blog, David is a
                              > smart guy, and he knew where to go (this list, for example) when trying to
                              > solve his problems with the encoding process. I would argue that most
                              > people are not like David. They want something that works out of the box
                              > and is easy to use. They don't want to do a lot of pre-encoding or
                              > processing just to be able to edit there films. That is the real beauty of
                              > the Flip and Kodak series cameras.

                              Can you actually edit (trim) 1280x720 HD video smoothly frame-by-frame
                              with the Flip or Kodak camera software? If not, then technically it's
                              not a fair comparison I don't think, but I do agree with your
                              sentiment that that sort of ease of use the average consumer wants,
                              heck, that's what *I* want too!

                              > Anyone can create video whenever they
                              > want without spending a whole lot of time and effort on the process. I've
                              > had one for almost two years, and it is almost always in my pocket. It's
                              > since been replaced by a Canon SD780 point and shoot, but I still use the
                              > Flip quite a bit, particularly in places where I might lose or damage my
                              > camera (roller coasters and bike rides come to mind). The Flipshare software
                              > is also very easy to use, and has a lot of features that *most* users will
                              > appreciate. Take a look at
                              > http://libraryvoice.com/technology/beyond-the-lens-the-real-power-of-the-flip-camerafor
                              > a write-up I did on the FlipShare software. The format factor and the
                              > built-in software make the Flip and Kodak very attractive for the masses.
                              > Power to the people, or something like that.

                              Nice article.
                              It does look good for the average user, but does it work with HD on an
                              ordinary power machine?

                              Is HD ready for the masses yet?

                              Dave.
                            • Chad Boeninger
                              I neglected to say that my Flip is the Mino SD, not HD. For HD (720 P) video, I use my Canon SD780is, and edit with the Canon Zoombrowser software. I m
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 12, 2010
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                                I neglected to say that my Flip is the Mino SD, not HD. For HD (720 P)
                                video, I use my Canon SD780is, and edit with the Canon Zoombrowser software.
                                I'm running the zoombrowser software on a 4 year old Gateway laptop. It
                                chuggs, but it gets the job done. Granted, most of my videos are under 5
                                minutes, so the file sizes are not *that* big.

                                I think HD video is ready for the masses, as YouTube has proved. HD editing,
                                and all the issues it brings (codecs, system requirements, file size, etc),
                                may be a different story. I'd be curious how much post-production the
                                "masses" actually do.

                                On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...> wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Chad Boeninger <cfboeninger@...<cfboeninger%40gmail.com>>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I recall when David first got his Xacti, he had to do some leg work to
                                > > figure out the best ways to edit the MP4 file format of the Xacti with
                                > his
                                > > current video editing software.
                                >
                                > Whilst it's true that it took me some time to get my system working,
                                > technically it was not a problem with the Xacti.
                                > The HD (1280x720 is what I shoot because that's what YouTube wants)
                                > MP4 files the Xacti produces were fully compatible with every program
                                > I ever tried.
                                > So it's not a matter of file compatibility, it's a matter of being
                                > able to actually edit HD MP4 files directly, and I believe this is a
                                > common problem regardless of what camera you use. The Xacti actually
                                > helps in this matter because it produces widely compatible MP4 files.
                                >
                                > BTW, my editing process is still not completely smooth, it can be
                                > quite jerky and unresponsive at random times, but I've put that down
                                > to my "ordinary" machine and the price to pay for editing HD MP4
                                > directly. At least I've got it working when almost everyone else told
                                > me I was crazy for even trying to edit HD MP4 directly!
                                >
                                >
                                > > From looking at his video blog, David is a
                                > > smart guy, and he knew where to go (this list, for example) when trying
                                > to
                                > > solve his problems with the encoding process. I would argue that most
                                > > people are not like David. They want something that works out of the box
                                > > and is easy to use. They don't want to do a lot of pre-encoding or
                                > > processing just to be able to edit there films. That is the real beauty
                                > of
                                > > the Flip and Kodak series cameras.
                                >
                                > Can you actually edit (trim) 1280x720 HD video smoothly frame-by-frame
                                > with the Flip or Kodak camera software? If not, then technically it's
                                > not a fair comparison I don't think, but I do agree with your
                                > sentiment that that sort of ease of use the average consumer wants,
                                > heck, that's what *I* want too!
                                >
                                >
                                > > Anyone can create video whenever they
                                > > want without spending a whole lot of time and effort on the process. I've
                                > > had one for almost two years, and it is almost always in my pocket. It's
                                > > since been replaced by a Canon SD780 point and shoot, but I still use the
                                > > Flip quite a bit, particularly in places where I might lose or damage my
                                > > camera (roller coasters and bike rides come to mind). The Flipshare
                                > software
                                > > is also very easy to use, and has a lot of features that *most* users
                                > will
                                > > appreciate. Take a look at
                                > >
                                > http://libraryvoice.com/technology/beyond-the-lens-the-real-power-of-the-flip-camerafor
                                > > a write-up I did on the FlipShare software. The format factor and the
                                > > built-in software make the Flip and Kodak very attractive for the masses.
                                > > Power to the people, or something like that.
                                >
                                > Nice article.
                                > It does look good for the average user, but does it work with HD on an
                                > ordinary power machine?
                                >
                                > Is HD ready for the masses yet?
                                >
                                > Dave.
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                Chad F. Boeninger
                                libraryvoice.com - blog
                                libraryvoice.com/videos - videoblog
                                twitter.com/cfboeninger


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Jones
                                ... I don t think file size is the issue. I have the same editing problems with a 5 second HD clip as I do with a 5 minute HD clip. As others have stated on
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 12, 2010
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                                  On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Chad Boeninger <cfboeninger@...> wrote:
                                  > I neglected to say that my Flip is the Mino SD, not HD.  For HD (720 P)
                                  > video, I use my Canon SD780is, and edit with the Canon Zoombrowser software.
                                  > I'm running the zoombrowser software on a 4 year old Gateway laptop.  It
                                  > chuggs, but it gets the job done.  Granted, most of my videos are under 5
                                  > minutes, so the file sizes are not *that* big.

                                  I don't think file size is the issue. I have the same editing problems
                                  with a 5 second HD clip as I do with a 5 minute HD clip.
                                  As others have stated on here before, it's the inherent properties of
                                  the MPEG4 formats and the codecs that make them non-optimal for frame
                                  based editing. I've been told I'm one of the few people "foolish"
                                  enough to attempt to edit directly in HD MP4! I'm of the understanding
                                  that most others covert their camera MP4 files to MPEG2 first before
                                  editing.

                                  > I think HD video is ready for the masses, as YouTube has proved. HD editing,
                                  > and all the issues it brings (codecs, system requirements, file size, etc),
                                  > may be a different story.  I'd be curious how much post-production the
                                  > "masses" actually do.

                                  My file sizes have actually dropped after I moved from MPEG2 720x480
                                  to MP4 1280x720, so no complaints there!

                                  As for my editing, I trim and edit the HD MP4 files directly copied
                                  from my Xacti camera. But because my Ulead Pro X2 edit software cannot
                                  output HD MP4 directly, I have to render my final project to 1280x720
                                  MPEG2 and then use Handbrake twice to convert to 1280x720 MP4 for
                                  YouTube, and 480x272 web optimised iPhone/ITouch/iPod compatible MP4
                                  for the podcasters.

                                  Dave.
                                • Bohuš
                                  I have edited the MP4 output of both the Flip HD and the Kodak Zi8 with varying degrees of success. As someone here mentioned, the included software is there
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 12, 2010
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                                    I have edited the MP4 output of both the Flip HD and the Kodak Zi8 with
                                    varying degrees of success. As someone here mentioned, the included
                                    software is there to chop the heads and tails off of clips, but really
                                    isn't good for anything more involved than that. A lot of the issue is
                                    just ram throughput and how quickly the MP4 stream can be decoded so you
                                    can see it and edit with it. I've tried most of the major pro software,
                                    and I didn't get especially good performance.

                                    The best performance came from software called SpeedEDIT by NewTek (the
                                    same folks who make the TriCaster & the old Video Toaster from the
                                    90's). It's not exactly cheap, and it doesn't have the sheer number of
                                    features of Premiere of Final Cut, but it is far more robust especially
                                    when editing with multiple formats. It fared pretty well with MP4
                                    footage, but certainly was not as snappy as with the stuff coming from
                                    my HDV cameras. I have occasionally transcoded into other more edit
                                    friendly codecs, but I just hate doing that. Recompressing is never a
                                    good idea, especially if the fotage you started with is already
                                    compressed to within an inch of its life.

                                    My idea was to use pocket cams for impromptu interviews and such, but
                                    MP4 really is too fussy for editing with at this point... even on a
                                    beefy edit machine. Possibly the next generation of PC hardware &
                                    software will do better, but I vastly prefer the responsiveness of stuff
                                    I capture with HDV cams. Still can't match how portable and spontaneous
                                    those little pocket cams are.

                                    --
                                    --
                                    Bohus Blahut
                                    (BOH-hoosh BLAH-hoot)

                                    modern filmmaker
                                  • Joly MacFie
                                    David raises a good point here, what might be missing in flipshare is a podcast function, which sites provide it, given 720p AVC input? I am talking 640x360
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 12, 2010
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                                      David raises a good point here, what might be missing in flipshare is
                                      a 'podcast' function, which sites provide it, given 720p AVC input? I
                                      am talking 640x360 baseline .m4v's with auto iTunes store listing.

                                      joly

                                      On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 6:29 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...> wrote:
                                      > But because my Ulead Pro X2 edit software cannot
                                      > output HD MP4 directly, I have to render my final project to 1280x720
                                      > MPEG2 and then use Handbrake twice to convert to 1280x720 MP4 for
                                      > YouTube, and 480x272 web optimised iPhone/ITouch/iPod compatible MP4
                                      > for the podcasters.
                                      >
                                      > Dave.
                                      >


                                      --
                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast
                                      WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com
                                      http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                    • Pete Prodoehl
                                      Hmmm, the Flip? I m shooting with the RED ONE in 2010. :) Pete
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 14, 2010
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                                        Hmmm, the Flip?

                                        I'm shooting with the RED ONE in 2010. :)


                                        Pete


                                        Joly MacFie wrote:
                                        > I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational -
                                        > it's like the brownie cam of videoblogging..
                                        >
                                        > It's not just the cam but also the flipshare software/service that
                                        > comes with it...
                                        >
                                        > It's pretty much idiot-proof..
                                        >
                                        > j
                                        >
                                        > On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:42 AM, elbowsofdeath <steve@...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>> Belated new years greetings to all, Ive not been keeping up with the list much in the last year or so but am back again for now...
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                      • Jim Turner
                                        Give us the deets Pete. What are the specs etc on RedOne as it looks intriguing. Jim ... -- Jim Turner One By One Media, LLC www.onebyonemedia.com
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 14, 2010
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                                          Give us the deets Pete. What are the specs etc on RedOne as it looks
                                          intriguing.

                                          Jim

                                          On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Pete Prodoehl <raster@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hmmm, the Flip?
                                          >
                                          > I'm shooting with the RED ONE in 2010. :)
                                          >
                                          > Pete
                                          >
                                          > Joly MacFie wrote:
                                          > > I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational -
                                          > > it's like the brownie cam of videoblogging..
                                          > >
                                          > > It's not just the cam but also the flipshare software/service that
                                          > > comes with it...
                                          > >
                                          > > It's pretty much idiot-proof..
                                          > >
                                          > > j
                                          > >
                                          > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...<david.jones%40altium.com>>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:42 AM, elbowsofdeath <steve@...<steve%40dvmachine.com>>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >>
                                          > >>> Belated new years greetings to all, Ive not been keeping up with the
                                          > list much in the last year or so but am back again for now...
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          >
                                          >



                                          --
                                          Jim Turner
                                          One By One Media, LLC
                                          www.onebyonemedia.com
                                          www.bloggersforhire.com
                                          @Genuine
                                          this email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • elbowsofdeath
                                          Broadly speaking Red make cameras that are the digital equivalent to film cameras used in cinematography. They want to set a new standard for affordable
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 15, 2010
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                                            Broadly speaking Red make cameras that are the digital equivalent to film cameras used in cinematography. They want to set a new standard for affordable high-spec modular cameras. Bt thats affordable compared to equivalents in that high end of the marketplace, their stuff is considerably more expensive than the sort of video cameras vloggers and others are likely to come across. Results can be stunning but the workflow and skills required to operate the camera are quite a bit different to what people are used to from video cameras, its far more like being a camera operator for cinema, which is something I know very little about but from what I understand its not exactly 'point and shoot'.

                                            Cheers

                                            Seve Elbows

                                            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Jim Turner <jturner@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Give us the deets Pete. What are the specs etc on RedOne as it looks
                                            > intriguing.
                                            >
                                            > Jim
                                            >
                                            > On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Pete Prodoehl <raster@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Hmmm, the Flip?
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm shooting with the RED ONE in 2010. :)
                                            > >
                                            > > Pete
                                            > >
                                            > > Joly MacFie wrote:
                                            > > > I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational -
                                            > > > it's like the brownie cam of videoblogging..
                                            > > >
                                            > > > It's not just the cam but also the flipshare software/service that
                                            > > > comes with it...
                                            > > >
                                            > > > It's pretty much idiot-proof..
                                            > > >
                                            > > > j
                                            > > >
                                            > > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...<david.jones%40altium.com>>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:42 AM, elbowsofdeath <steve@...<steve%40dvmachine.com>>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >>> Belated new years greetings to all, Ive not been keeping up with the
                                            > > list much in the last year or so but am back again for now...
                                            > > >>>
                                            > > >>>
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Jim Turner
                                            > One By One Media, LLC
                                            > www.onebyonemedia.com
                                            > www.bloggersforhire.com
                                            > @Genuine
                                            > this email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Pete Prodoehl
                                            Yup, if you re used to video as it s existed for past X number of years (especially consumer video ) is nothing at all like the Red. It s a digital cinema
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 15, 2010
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                                              Yup, if you're used to "video" as it's existed for past X number of
                                              years (especially "consumer video") is nothing at all like the Red. It's
                                              a "digital cinema camera" and if you know the world of film cameras, you
                                              may love it. If you know the world of video, well, there's a steep
                                              learning curve. A lot of the Red operation can require 2 people, and I
                                              don't think there are many people buying them nowadays to "play around
                                              with" though. Maybe the Red Scarlet when it comes out...


                                              Pete


                                              elbowsofdeath wrote:
                                              > Broadly speaking Red make cameras that are the digital equivalent to film cameras used in cinematography. They want to set a new standard for affordable high-spec modular cameras. Bt thats affordable compared to equivalents in that high end of the marketplace, their stuff is considerably more expensive than the sort of video cameras vloggers and others are likely to come across. Results can be stunning but the workflow and skills required to operate the camera are quite a bit different to what people are used to from video cameras, its far more like being a camera operator for cinema, which is something I know very little about but from what I understand its not exactly 'point and shoot'.
                                              >
                                              > Cheers
                                              >
                                              > Seve Elbows
                                              >
                                              > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Jim Turner <jturner@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> Give us the deets Pete. What are the specs etc on RedOne as it looks
                                              >> intriguing.
                                              >>
                                              >> Jim
                                              >>
                                              >> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Pete Prodoehl <raster@...> wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Hmmm, the Flip?
                                              >>>
                                              >>> I'm shooting with the RED ONE in 2010. :)
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Pete
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Joly MacFie wrote:
                                              >>>
                                              >>>> I think the flip (I got the HD for xmas) could be transformational -
                                              >>>> it's like the brownie cam of videoblogging..
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> It's not just the cam but also the flipshare software/service that
                                              >>>> comes with it...
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> It's pretty much idiot-proof..
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> j
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, David Jones <david.jones@...<david.jones%40altium.com>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> wrote:
                                              >>>
                                              >>>>> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:42 AM, elbowsofdeath <steve@...<steve%40dvmachine.com>>
                                              >>>>>
                                              >>> wrote:
                                              >>>
                                              >>>>>> Belated new years greetings to all, Ive not been keeping up with the
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>> list much in the last year or so but am back again for now...
                                              >>>
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>
                                            • Jay dedman
                                              ... Its still not clear when this camera will actually be on sale: http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/01/red-scarlet-2-3-priced-detailed-and-wanted/ It certainly
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 17, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                > Yup, if you're used to "video" as it's existed for past X number of
                                                > years (especially "consumer video") is nothing at all like the Red. It's
                                                > a "digital cinema camera" and if you know the world of film cameras, you
                                                > may love it. If you know the world of video, well, there's a steep
                                                > learning curve. A lot of the Red operation can require 2 people, and I
                                                > don't think there are many people buying them nowadays to "play around
                                                > with" though. Maybe the Red Scarlet when it comes out...

                                                Its still not clear when this camera will actually be on sale:
                                                http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/01/red-scarlet-2-3-priced-detailed-and-wanted/
                                                It certainly is a cool, weird looking camera:
                                                http://www.engadget.com/photos/red-scarlet-2-3-priced-detailed-and-wanted/2492121#2492127

                                                Ive been putting off buying a Digital SLR that records HD video (like
                                                the MarkV)....to get the Red Scarlet. It'll be like having a film
                                                camera in your palm.

                                                This kind of camera isnt for amateurs. The Flip, Xacti, and Kodak are
                                                perfect as pocket cameras as Joly said.

                                                Jay




                                                --
                                                http://ryanishungry.com
                                                http://momentshowing.net
                                                http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                                                917 371 6790
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