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Re: [videoblogging] early days, blogs in different society and vogma manifesto

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  • Jay dedman
    ... Joly started Punkcast.com and has good stories recording NYC punk shows in audio/video starting in late 90 s. Good article about him:
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 2, 2009
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      > Thanks a lot for forwarding my email (to Joly - who?) and telling a bit about the early days. It's really helpful for my research because I hadn't been interested in web-videos at that time. Actually, I hadn't known about it before there was a local offer (just a >platform with videos) for the town I lived in.

      Joly started Punkcast.com and has good stories recording NYC punk
      shows in audio/video starting in late 90's.
      Good article about him:
      http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-10-28/news/bootlegger-s-banquet/1

      > General, web-tv is not too famous in Germany. Mostly, I have the feeling it's still an American trend (anyway, especially in tech-stuff, Europe is round about 4 years behind the US they say)...
      > That's a really, really good question for social science or cultural anthropology if and why citizens of some societies are more interested in showing their everyday life…
      > But on the other hand the mainstream reality tv is quite famous in Germany, even though I think it goes down in some time. (It has been so long the favourite of the tv networks... )
      > But blogs are different. I think for a society blog and videoblog are a good way for real self-assurance.
      > Why is it less usual in Germany (assumed it is like that): Maybe blogs are associated with narcissism. Also, we have a more or less strict liability to criticism. So with a Videoblog you are really vulnerable.. Just spontaneous speculation! What do you think?

      One way is to see people in the United States as narcissistic. Very
      very true in many ways. But I like to think that many of us are more
      open and craving community that was stripped out of US society the
      past century. It might not always come across in healthy ways, but
      "open" makes more sense than "narcissistic". Making it up as we go
      along. Tear down the castles.

      Peter Van Dijck, from Belgian, actually started this group when he
      lived in NYC. He always told me that Americans were much more "in your
      face" and he liked it.

      > Can you tell me if the vogma manifesto was discussed within this group? I haven't found a wide discussion about it. Strange, if I >had been there I would have had the necessity to discuss it in detail. A pity, five years too late ;-D.

      Yes, Adrian Miles was one of the first members of the group. We
      discussed his Vogma Manifesto (http://vogmae.net.au/drupal/vog/tbd),
      though I dont think he found the most responsive audience to his
      academic leanings. We were (are?) a lot of riff raff. In 2005, Michael
      Verdi made the Vlog Anarchy manifesto in response here
      (http://michaelverdi.com/2005/02/20/vlog-anarchy/).

      I think a lot of us just starting making stuff instead of figuring out
      how to define it. But I have a side of me that likes to say "this is
      this". Both are good at appropriate times.

      There's another group that sprung out of this one that focuses on
      dreamy tech and academic discussions:
      http://groups.google.com/group/artists-in-the-cloud

      Jay

      --
      http://ryanishungry.com
      http://jaydedman.com
      http://twitter.com/jaydedman
      917 371 6790
    • Kath O'Donnell
      there was also a list called vlogtheory too http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vlogtheory which might have some discussions you d be interested in I think there was
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 2, 2009
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        there was also a list called vlogtheory too
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vlogtheory which might have some discussions
        you'd be interested in
        I think there was another? but maybe I've forgotten


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kath O'Donnell
        oh & there s video vortex now too (but it s more recent than below) http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/videovortex_listcultures.org 2009/12/3 Kath
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 2009
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          oh & there's video vortex now too (but it's more recent than below)
          http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/videovortex_listcultures.org


          2009/12/3 Kath O'Donnell <aliak77@...>

          > there was also a list called vlogtheory too
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vlogtheory which might have some discussions
          > you'd be interested in
          > I think there was another? but maybe I've forgotten
          >



          --
          http://www.aliak.com
          http://www.brisbanedancepartiesarchive.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kirstin
          Hi Jenn, Nice to meet you! As a big fan of Ehrensenf, I m curious: what other videoprogram-type vlogs are popular in Germany? Best, Kirstin
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 2009
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            Hi Jenn, Nice to meet you! As a big fan of Ehrensenf, I'm curious: what
            other videoprogram-type vlogs are popular in Germany? Best, Kirstin
            http://www.digest.tv <http://www.digest.tv>
             http://www.twitter.com/kirstinbutler
            <http://www.twitter.com/kirstinbutler>  
            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "elaluca11" <mail@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks a lot, Jay and Irina!
            >
            > I had checked the first 20 messages from the beginning of this group
            before I signed in. Really interesting, not only because it's already 5
            years old.
            >
            > I agree, from 2005 on the Web-TV-community changes a lot because of
            YouTube. I divide the Web-TV-development in three parts: from 1993 until
            2000 with pseudo.com, DEN and webisodes, 2000 until 2005 and the
            YouTube-era until today.
            >
            > Actually, there are not so many German-speaking vlogs. Most formats
            tend to a genre I call videoprogram (those I am concentrating on), they
            are more a semi-professional produced show or magazine (like
            Rocketboom).
            > One quite famous videoblog of the scene just gave up: She
            (Schnutingers Netrzkabarett) was bashed because of acting in a
            commercial . However, in Germany there are rather videoblogs of
            prominent people than those of average citizens: like Angela Merkel's
            videoblog
            http://www.bundeskanzlerin.de/Webs/BK/De/Mediathek/Videos/videos.html
            (it's stiff and a kind of deadpan but unintentionally funny), the former
            videoblog of a famous show master (the German David Letterman: Harald
            Schmidt) or one blog of a German journalist:
            http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-36686.html.
            >
            >
            > Bye
            > Jenn
            >
            > P.S. Irina, I'll check Geek Entertainment TV out! Thanks for it.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Irina irinaski@ wrote:
            > >
            > > hi jennifer
            > >
            > > i am happy to help u as well
            > >
            > > i am not like steve or jay from 2004
            > > but i am from 2005 lol (november, honestly)
            > >
            > > we are still producing it if u can imagine
            > >
            > > still wordpress plus blip.tv
            > >
            > > i have done many shows since then
            > >
            > > and just started a new one for an online newspaper in sf.
            > >
            > > irina slutsky
            > >
            > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Jay dedman jay.dedman@ wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > I am excited about the discussions in this community and the
            potential of
            > > > so many people sharing thoughts about this topic!
            > > > > My first questions to you are:
            > > > > - Does someone know videoblogs founded from 2000 on (apart from
            Steve
            > > > Garfield and Adam Kontras), English- or German-speaking ones?
            > > >
            > > > You should look in the archives of this group, started in 2004.
            > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/messages/1?l=1
            > > > Here you will see how we were talking about "videoblogs" back
            then. Plenty
            > > > of debates over the concept, term, and technical implementation.
            This is
            > > > one
            > > > of the frist messages of this group:
            > > >
            > > > (Peter and I) have had long talks about videoblogging and wanted
            to bring
            > > > > other people into the conversation.
            > > > >
            > > > > The ability to put video on blogs seems amazing to us, but there
            seem to
            > > > be
            > > > > some obstacles.
            > > > > 1. Technically, the process takes too long.(capture, import,
            optimize,
            > > > > write some HTML, post).
            > > > > 2. existing servers don't allow much bandwidth and storage
            space. You'll
            > > > > either get screwed becasue too mnay people watch your posts, or
            you have
            > > > to
            > > > > earse your archive video because youre out of space.
            > > > > 3. what is the language of videoblogging? is it little movies?
            or moments
            > > > > from your life?
            > > > >
            > > > > We believe that if we get interested people together, we'll
            answer all
            > > > > these questions.
            > > > > So this is the beginning.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > When this group started, there were only a few people who I found
            that were
            > > > consciously posting video to blogs. Like Steve Garfield or Adrian
            Miles in
            > > > Melbourne (http://vogmae.net.au/). Most people before 2004 seem to
            have
            > > > posted video as an experiment as a one-off, were doing live video
            > > > streaming,
            > > > posted video to html pages (not blogs) so weren't easily
            searchable, or
            > > > erased their archives.
            > > >
            > > > Here are some of the early folks in this group as seen from
            Videoblogging
            > > > Week 2004.
            > > > http://www.solitude.dk/archives/vog-week/
            > > >
            > > > In mid 2005, Youtube began....so by 2006 there were tens of
            thousands of
            > > > examples of videoblogs.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > - How do you define videoblog currently? (Mostly, I have the
            feeling the
            > > > definition is blurred and quite a lot of different Web-TV-genres
            or types
            > > > are subsumed under the concept of videoblog.)
            > > >
            > > > Ill let others jump in here. This is a well-traveled debate in
            this group
            > > > that comes up every 6-8 months or so.
            > > >
            > > > By the way, I dont know many German videobloggers (maybe just
            Joel?
            > > > http://joelart.blogspot.com/). In this group we have plenty of
            folks from
            > > > Europe (see http://www.vlogeurope.com/) but no Germans. What's the
            state
            > > > of
            > > > videoblogging in Germany in your opinion?
            > > >
            > > > Jay
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > http://ryanishungry.com
            > > > http://jaydedman.com
            > > > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
            > > > 917 371 6790
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > http://geekentertainment.tv
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jenna
            Wow! That s a lot of input! Thanks a lot to you, that s great for my research. ... Within my doctorate Adrian s manifesto is going to get quite some attention
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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              Wow! That's a lot of input! Thanks a lot to you, that's great for my research.

              @Jay:

              >Yes, Adrian Miles was one of the first members of the group. We
              >discussed his Vogma Manifesto (http://vogmae.net.au/drupal/vog/tbd),
              >though I dont think he found the most responsive audience to his
              >academic leanings.

              Within my doctorate Adrian's manifesto is going to get quite
              some attention in order to discuss the form, the style, the motivation
              and the content of videoblogs.

              >One way is to see people in the United States as narcissistic. Very
              >very true in many ways. But I like to think that many of us are more
              >open and craving community that was stripped out of US society the
              >past century. It might not always come across in healthy ways, but
              >"open" makes more sense than "narcissistic". Making it up as we go
              >along. Tear down the castles.

              I see, my statement was not written precisely and my sentences can be misunderstand easily even though I think you, Jay, understood me well. My text in clear: I assume that Germans slightly tend to judge a videoblogger as narcissistic (worldwide, not only in the US) Myself, I see videoblogs as a way of self-assurance, freedom of opinion, sometimes journalism and above all communication. And here I am coming back to your point, Jay, that means openness as well.

              One thing:
              >I think a lot of us just starting making stuff instead of figuring out
              >how to define it. But I have a side of me that likes to say "this is
              >this". Both are good at appropriate times.

              Perfect! I agree perfectly! Actually, that's the way I am – let's say – educated. At my university they insist of studying the practise (you can see my productions here: www.JenniferAhl.de – it's in German, but if you go just to the top, then to film you can just pick the first row of thumbnails you see and click on "ansehen" – this film is without speech) and the theory. In short terms: Synergetic effects of that combination. There is no other way for my work, I always consider both sides of film and television even if the main focus lays on one of it.

              Bye – and hope everything is understandable
              Jenna


              --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Thanks a lot for forwarding my email (to Joly - who?) and telling a bit about the early days. It's really helpful for my research because I hadn't been interested in web-videos at that time. Actually, I hadn't known about it before there was a local offer (just a >platform with videos) for the town I lived in.
              >
              > Joly started Punkcast.com and has good stories recording NYC punk
              > shows in audio/video starting in late 90's.
              > Good article about him:
              > http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-10-28/news/bootlegger-s-banquet/1
              >
              > > General, web-tv is not too famous in Germany. Mostly, I have the feeling it's still an American trend (anyway, especially in tech-stuff, Europe is round about 4 years behind the US they say)...
              > > That's a really, really good question for social science or cultural anthropology if and why citizens of some societies are more interested in showing their everyday life…
              > > But on the other hand the mainstream reality tv is quite famous in Germany, even though I think it goes down in some time. (It has been so long the favourite of the tv networks... )
              > > But blogs are different. I think for a society blog and videoblog are a good way for real self-assurance.
              > > Why is it less usual in Germany (assumed it is like that): Maybe blogs are associated with narcissism. Also, we have a more or less strict liability to criticism. So with a Videoblog you are really vulnerable.. Just spontaneous speculation! What do you think?
              >
              > One way is to see people in the United States as narcissistic. Very
              > very true in many ways. But I like to think that many of us are more
              > open and craving community that was stripped out of US society the
              > past century. It might not always come across in healthy ways, but
              > "open" makes more sense than "narcissistic". Making it up as we go
              > along. Tear down the castles.
              >
              > Peter Van Dijck, from Belgian, actually started this group when he
              > lived in NYC. He always told me that Americans were much more "in your
              > face" and he liked it.
              >
              > > Can you tell me if the vogma manifesto was discussed within this group? I haven't found a wide discussion about it. Strange, if I >had been there I would have had the necessity to discuss it in detail. A pity, five years too late ;-D.
              >
              > Yes, Adrian Miles was one of the first members of the group. We
              > discussed his Vogma Manifesto (http://vogmae.net.au/drupal/vog/tbd),
              > though I dont think he found the most responsive audience to his
              > academic leanings. We were (are?) a lot of riff raff. In 2005, Michael
              > Verdi made the Vlog Anarchy manifesto in response here
              > (http://michaelverdi.com/2005/02/20/vlog-anarchy/).
              >
              > I think a lot of us just starting making stuff instead of figuring out
              > how to define it. But I have a side of me that likes to say "this is
              > this". Both are good at appropriate times.
              >
              > There's another group that sprung out of this one that focuses on
              > dreamy tech and academic discussions:
              > http://groups.google.com/group/artists-in-the-cloud
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > --
              > http://ryanishungry.com
              > http://jaydedman.com
              > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
              > 917 371 6790
              >
            • Jenna
              Hi Kirstin, Ehrensenf is great, I really like it and actually I am going to analyse it within my thesis. - Another videoprogram is Buschka entdeckt
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Kirstin,

                Ehrensenf is great, I really like it and actually I am going to analyse it within my thesis.
                - Another videoprogram is "Buschka entdeckt Deutschland" (round about 30 minutes one guy walks through German cities without any script): http://www.buschka-entdeckt.de/
                - There is www.rebell.tv but it's from Suisse.
                - Kavka vs. The Web: http://www.myspace.com/kavkavstheweb (Kavka is a German journalist)
                - http://www.robvegas.de/
                - http://www.elektrischer-reporter.de/ (cooperation with a tv network, ZDF)
                - http://www.balconytv.com/hamburg/heutige-show.aspx (music-show on a small balcony in Hamburg)

                ...there are a lot.
                But I can't give you hardly any "real" videoblog apart from prominent people.

                Tell me about your impressions sometime.

                Jenna

                --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Kirstin" <kirstinbutler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Jenn, Nice to meet you! As a big fan of Ehrensenf, I'm curious: what
                > other videoprogram-type vlogs are popular in Germany? Best, Kirstin
                > http://www.digest.tv <http://www.digest.tv>
                >  http://www.twitter.com/kirstinbutler
                > <http://www.twitter.com/kirstinbutler>  
                > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "elaluca11" <mail@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks a lot, Jay and Irina!
                > >
                > > I had checked the first 20 messages from the beginning of this group
                > before I signed in. Really interesting, not only because it's already 5
                > years old.
                > >
                > > I agree, from 2005 on the Web-TV-community changes a lot because of
                > YouTube. I divide the Web-TV-development in three parts: from 1993 until
                > 2000 with pseudo.com, DEN and webisodes, 2000 until 2005 and the
                > YouTube-era until today.
                > >
                > > Actually, there are not so many German-speaking vlogs. Most formats
                > tend to a genre I call videoprogram (those I am concentrating on), they
                > are more a semi-professional produced show or magazine (like
                > Rocketboom).
                > > One quite famous videoblog of the scene just gave up: She
                > (Schnutingers Netrzkabarett) was bashed because of acting in a
                > commercial . However, in Germany there are rather videoblogs of
                > prominent people than those of average citizens: like Angela Merkel's
                > videoblog
                > http://www.bundeskanzlerin.de/Webs/BK/De/Mediathek/Videos/videos.html
                > (it's stiff and a kind of deadpan but unintentionally funny), the former
                > videoblog of a famous show master (the German David Letterman: Harald
                > Schmidt) or one blog of a German journalist:
                > http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-36686.html.
                > >
                > >
                > > Bye
                > > Jenn
                > >
                > > P.S. Irina, I'll check Geek Entertainment TV out! Thanks for it.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Irina irinaski@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > hi jennifer
                > > >
                > > > i am happy to help u as well
                > > >
                > > > i am not like steve or jay from 2004
                > > > but i am from 2005 lol (november, honestly)
                > > >
                > > > we are still producing it if u can imagine
                > > >
                > > > still wordpress plus blip.tv
                > > >
                > > > i have done many shows since then
                > > >
                > > > and just started a new one for an online newspaper in sf.
                > > >
                > > > irina slutsky
                > > >
                > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Jay dedman jay.dedman@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > I am excited about the discussions in this community and the
                > potential of
                > > > > so many people sharing thoughts about this topic!
                > > > > > My first questions to you are:
                > > > > > - Does someone know videoblogs founded from 2000 on (apart from
                > Steve
                > > > > Garfield and Adam Kontras), English- or German-speaking ones?
                > > > >
                > > > > You should look in the archives of this group, started in 2004.
                > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/messages/1?l=1
                > > > > Here you will see how we were talking about "videoblogs" back
                > then. Plenty
                > > > > of debates over the concept, term, and technical implementation.
                > This is
                > > > > one
                > > > > of the frist messages of this group:
                > > > >
                > > > > (Peter and I) have had long talks about videoblogging and wanted
                > to bring
                > > > > > other people into the conversation.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The ability to put video on blogs seems amazing to us, but there
                > seem to
                > > > > be
                > > > > > some obstacles.
                > > > > > 1. Technically, the process takes too long.(capture, import,
                > optimize,
                > > > > > write some HTML, post).
                > > > > > 2. existing servers don't allow much bandwidth and storage
                > space. You'll
                > > > > > either get screwed becasue too mnay people watch your posts, or
                > you have
                > > > > to
                > > > > > earse your archive video because youre out of space.
                > > > > > 3. what is the language of videoblogging? is it little movies?
                > or moments
                > > > > > from your life?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > We believe that if we get interested people together, we'll
                > answer all
                > > > > > these questions.
                > > > > > So this is the beginning.
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > When this group started, there were only a few people who I found
                > that were
                > > > > consciously posting video to blogs. Like Steve Garfield or Adrian
                > Miles in
                > > > > Melbourne (http://vogmae.net.au/). Most people before 2004 seem to
                > have
                > > > > posted video as an experiment as a one-off, were doing live video
                > > > > streaming,
                > > > > posted video to html pages (not blogs) so weren't easily
                > searchable, or
                > > > > erased their archives.
                > > > >
                > > > > Here are some of the early folks in this group as seen from
                > Videoblogging
                > > > > Week 2004.
                > > > > http://www.solitude.dk/archives/vog-week/
                > > > >
                > > > > In mid 2005, Youtube began....so by 2006 there were tens of
                > thousands of
                > > > > examples of videoblogs.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > - How do you define videoblog currently? (Mostly, I have the
                > feeling the
                > > > > definition is blurred and quite a lot of different Web-TV-genres
                > or types
                > > > > are subsumed under the concept of videoblog.)
                > > > >
                > > > > Ill let others jump in here. This is a well-traveled debate in
                > this group
                > > > > that comes up every 6-8 months or so.
                > > > >
                > > > > By the way, I dont know many German videobloggers (maybe just
                > Joel?
                > > > > http://joelart.blogspot.com/). In this group we have plenty of
                > folks from
                > > > > Europe (see http://www.vlogeurope.com/) but no Germans. What's the
                > state
                > > > > of
                > > > > videoblogging in Germany in your opinion?
                > > > >
                > > > > Jay
                > > > >
                > > > > --
                > > > > http://ryanishungry.com
                > > > > http://jaydedman.com
                > > > > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                > > > > 917 371 6790
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > http://geekentertainment.tv
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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