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Re: [videoblogging] Open Video Ideas

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  • Jay dedman
    ... its been very difficult to verbalize what we mean by Open Video . A video like this goes a long way to at least setting the right boundaries for
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
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      > I've been working on some ideas for the Open Video Confrence (NYC June
      > 19 - 20) and could use some feedback.
      > http://reports.graymattergravy.com/2009/05/29/open-video/

      its been very difficult to verbalize what we mean by "Open Video". A
      video like this goes a long way to at least setting the right
      boundaries for discussion.

      I hope there's a lot of people here who can come to the Open Video
      Conference. The biggest challenge we have is connecting the developers
      with the creators. i see a real disconnect in how developers think
      about what they're building for video creators...and the way video
      creators actually work.

      FCP, Avid, Premiere are such good video editing systems because they
      did years of research and user testing. So that's what we need to
      start doing.

      Jay



      --
      http://ryanishungry.com
      http://jaydedman.com
      http://twitter.com/jaydedman
      917 371 6790
    • Chris Hastings
      this video helps me focus on why the open video conversation is important. Verdi links us to the key root question: How can anyone make a video? What are the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
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        this video helps me focus on why the open video conversation is
        important. Verdi links us to the key root question: How can anyone
        make a video? What are the tools that will allow anyone to make
        video ? I think he should talk more about the other side of
        Neverland.. what does this type of system enable. What are some
        examples he can show?
        On Jun 1, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Jay dedman wrote:

        >
        >
        > > I've been working on some ideas for the Open Video Confrence (NYC
        > June
        > > 19 - 20) and could use some feedback.
        > > http://reports.graymattergravy.com/2009/05/29/open-video/
        >
        > its been very difficult to verbalize what we mean by "Open Video". A
        > video like this goes a long way to at least setting the right
        > boundaries for discussion.
        >
        > I hope there's a lot of people here who can come to the Open Video
        > Conference. The biggest challenge we have is connecting the developers
        > with the creators. i see a real disconnect in how developers think
        > about what they're building for video creators...and the way video
        > creators actually work.
        >
        > FCP, Avid, Premiere are such good video editing systems because they
        > did years of research and user testing. So that's what we need to
        > start doing.
        >
        > Jay
        >
        > --
        > http://ryanishungry.com
        > http://jaydedman.com
        > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
        > 917 371 6790
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Verdi
        Thanks Chris. That s a good focus. My plan for the conference is to have much of the presentation focus on examples - kind of like these imagined future web
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
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          Thanks Chris. That's a good focus. My plan for the conference is to
          have much of the presentation focus on examples - kind of like these
          imagined future web browsers
          <http://www.vimeo.com/1450211?pg=embed&sec=1450211>
          I'm forever encouraging people to get a Mac but that's unrealistic and
          also not the ideal solution. As much as I love my Mac, Apple is
          frustratingly slow to add specific functionality that I would find
          useful. And often when a 3rd party jumps in with a solution it's often
          Mac only (so much for collaboration). We really need a set of tools to
          use that are not delivered at the pleasure of one particular vendor.

          - Verdi

          On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Chris Hastings <chris3306@...> wrote:
          >  this video helps me focus on why the open video conversation is
          > important.  Verdi links us to the key root question: How can anyone
          > make a video? What are the tools that will allow anyone to make
          > video ?  I think he should talk more about the other side of
          > Neverland.. what does this type of system enable. What are some
          > examples he can show?
          > On Jun 1, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Jay dedman wrote:
          >
          >>
          >>
          >> > I've been working on some ideas for the Open Video Confrence (NYC
          >> June
          >> > 19 - 20) and could use some feedback.
          >> > http://reports.graymattergravy.com/2009/05/29/open-video/
          >>
          >> its been very difficult to verbalize what we mean by "Open Video". A
          >> video like this goes a long way to at least setting the right
          >> boundaries for discussion.
          >>
          >> I hope there's a lot of people here who can come to the Open Video
          >> Conference. The biggest challenge we have is connecting the developers
          >> with the creators. i see a real disconnect in how developers think
          >> about what they're building for video creators...and the way video
          >> creators actually work.
          >>
          >> FCP, Avid, Premiere are such good video editing systems because they
          >> did years of research and user testing. So that's what we need to
          >> start doing.
          >>
          >> Jay
          >>
          >> --
          >> http://ryanishungry.com
          >> http://jaydedman.com
          >> http://twitter.com/jaydedman
          >> 917 371 6790
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          http://michaelverdi.com
        • Richard (Show) Hall
          (I posted this on the blog too). Great Video Michael, I ve been teaching this digital media class the last three semesters, and technology is a huge barrier to
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 6, 2009
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            (I posted this on the blog too).

            Great Video Michael,

            I've been teaching this digital media class the last three semesters, and
            technology is a huge barrier to creativity.

            First, we only have PCs, so we can't go with FCP, so we go with Premiere
            Pro, which is functionally find, but has all sorts of issues dealing with
            different types of files/codecs. I had to teach stuff like, if you have an
            .mp4 file, you must first convert it to .mov with quicktime, and sometimes
            the audio won't import so you have to export separately - etc.

            This doesn't even cover the always pragmatic issue of compression, disc
            space, and problems with the university's secure network and new adobe
            programs not working etc.

            It's so frustrating, and it would be so cool if there was one "video engine"
            as you describe, because, at least there would, hypothetically, only be one
            set of issues to deal with.

            I look forward to continuing this conversation.

            ...peace...richard

            p.s. If I want to subscribe to all Verdi videos, how would I do that?

            On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Michael Verdi <michaelverdi@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > Thanks Chris. That's a good focus. My plan for the conference is to
            > have much of the presentation focus on examples - kind of like these
            > imagined future web browsers
            > <http://www.vimeo.com/1450211?pg=embed&sec=1450211>
            > I'm forever encouraging people to get a Mac but that's unrealistic and
            > also not the ideal solution. As much as I love my Mac, Apple is
            > frustratingly slow to add specific functionality that I would find
            > useful. And often when a 3rd party jumps in with a solution it's often
            > Mac only (so much for collaboration). We really need a set of tools to
            > use that are not delivered at the pleasure of one particular vendor.
            >
            > - Verdi
            >
            >
            > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Chris Hastings <chris3306@...<chris3306%40yahoo.com>>
            > wrote:
            > > this video helps me focus on why the open video conversation is
            > > important. Verdi links us to the key root question: How can anyone
            > > make a video? What are the tools that will allow anyone to make
            > > video ? I think he should talk more about the other side of
            > > Neverland.. what does this type of system enable. What are some
            > > examples he can show?
            > > On Jun 1, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Jay dedman wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> > I've been working on some ideas for the Open Video Confrence (NYC
            > >> June
            > >> > 19 - 20) and could use some feedback.
            > >> > http://reports.graymattergravy.com/2009/05/29/open-video/
            > >>
            > >> its been very difficult to verbalize what we mean by "Open Video". A
            > >> video like this goes a long way to at least setting the right
            > >> boundaries for discussion.
            > >>
            > >> I hope there's a lot of people here who can come to the Open Video
            > >> Conference. The biggest challenge we have is connecting the developers
            > >> with the creators. i see a real disconnect in how developers think
            > >> about what they're building for video creators...and the way video
            > >> creators actually work.
            > >>
            > >> FCP, Avid, Premiere are such good video editing systems because they
            > >> did years of research and user testing. So that's what we need to
            > >> start doing.
            > >>
            > >> Jay
            > >>
            > >> --
            > >> http://ryanishungry.com
            > >> http://jaydedman.com
            > >> http://twitter.com/jaydedman
            > >> 917 371 6790
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > http://michaelverdi.com
            >
            >



            --
            Richard (Show) Hall
            http://richardshow.org


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Heath
            ... Just use Sony Vegas Richard, it s much better.... :-) Heath Parks http://heathparks.com/blog1
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 8, 2009
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              --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Richard (Show) Hall" <richard@...> wrote:


              > I've been teaching this digital media class the last three >semesters, and
              > technology is a huge barrier to creativity.
              >
              > First, we only have PCs, so we can't go with FCP, so we go with >Premiere
              > Pro, which is functionally find, but has all sorts of issues dealing >with
              > different types of files/codecs.

              Just use Sony Vegas Richard, it's much better.... :-)

              Heath Parks
              http://heathparks.com/blog1
            • Richard Amirault
              ... From: Heath ... I ve used the consumer version of Sony Vegas for *years* ... it is a *very* capable and *very* stable program. Richard Amirault Boston,
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 8, 2009
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Heath"
                >> I've been teaching this digital media class the last three >semesters,
                >> and
                >> technology is a huge barrier to creativity.
                >>
                >> First, we only have PCs, so we can't go with FCP, so we go with >Premiere
                >> Pro, which is functionally find, but has all sorts of issues dealing
                >> >with
                >> different types of files/codecs.
                >
                > Just use Sony Vegas Richard, it's much better.... :-)

                I've used the "consumer" version of Sony Vegas for *years* ... it is a
                *very* capable and *very* stable program.

                Richard Amirault
                Boston, MA, USA
                http://n1jdu.org
                http://bostonfandom.org
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7hf9u2ZdlQ
              • Jason Daniels
                Michael, I just watched this video again because what you are talking about is really important and I can t go to the Open Video Conference. Here are some
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Michael,
                  I just watched this video again because what you are talking about is really
                  important and I can't go to the Open Video Conference. Here are some
                  reactions to what you talked about.

                  1) The Open Web, open code, open codec, open source movement has so much
                  collective energy working towards it, nothing short of inspiring. The video
                  right in the browser with a specific video tag - wow!

                  2) So what if getting videos on the web involves a little voodoo? You have
                  to concede that the barrier for publishing video to the web has been lowered
                  substantially and that the whole process is fairly accessible - that is what
                  freevlogging is based on. I don't find the learning curve to be
                  excessivelly prohibitive - if a story needs to get to the web it gets to the
                  web. Yes, there are important stories that did not make it to the web - but
                  was that because the compression settings were too confusing? Some of the
                  producers I have worked with at public access TV stations would not be
                  deterred by something like that. Working with videomakers from halfway
                  around the world poses much more of a problem. That is a structural problem
                  not a technical problem. Voodoo is cool, and not everyone is a witch doctor
                  - what kind of village would that be?

                  3) When you are talking about cameras adopting an Open Video Engine, I think
                  of the lower end cameras. But later, when you talk about collaborative
                  workflow, bittorrent and p2p, the reference is to working in HD. Oh, that
                  gorgeous HD....I'm drooling.....and I also simply can't imagine a scenario
                  in which the big camera companies (sony, canon, jvc, panasonic) would ever
                  entertain the idea of opening up their proprietary codecs. In fact, they
                  seem to be moving in the entirely opposite direction where you buy a
                  proprietary camera, you get proprietary recording media and then you go into
                  a proprietary editing system - no problem, works great - it is just terribly
                  expensive. Maybe the low end couldbreak out with a stellar camera and maybe
                  that is what is needed. Finding a venture capitalist to back an Open Video
                  camera is one thing, but it is hard to envision the entire market going
                  upside down.

                  4) The idea of using an open source content management to enable an 'low res
                  (offline)' edit that could then be 'up res to HD (online)' through p2p is
                  just fantastic. Bandwidth is an issue, still, and I think the answer is to
                  look at what open systems might have some bandwidth. Local municpal
                  broadband projects might be looking for a way to jumpstart a community media
                  initiative. Sharing could happen at a local or regional level between
                  shared Institutional networks. This is a cultural pipeline that is the
                  working corridor for rich media under the Creative Commons. I am also
                  seeking to work with those who are reinventing public access through this
                  prism of Open Video.

                  Jason

                  On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Richard Amirault <ramirault@...>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Heath"
                  > >> I've been teaching this digital media class the last three >semesters,
                  > >> and
                  > >> technology is a huge barrier to creativity.
                  > >>
                  > >> First, we only have PCs, so we can't go with FCP, so we go with
                  > >Premiere
                  > >> Pro, which is functionally find, but has all sorts of issues dealing
                  > >> >with
                  > >> different types of files/codecs.
                  > >
                  > > Just use Sony Vegas Richard, it's much better.... :-)
                  >
                  > I've used the "consumer" version of Sony Vegas for *years* ... it is a
                  > *very* capable and *very* stable program.
                  >
                  > Richard Amirault
                  > Boston, MA, USA
                  > http://n1jdu.org
                  > http://bostonfandom.org
                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7hf9u2ZdlQ
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jay dedman
                  Jason s thoughts are a good one since I also cant help think we re moving towards something more than just a free video editor. When I think of this Open
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jason's thoughts are a good one since I also cant help think we're moving
                    towards something more than just a free video editor. When I think of this
                    "Open Video Engine", I think of something the director Guillermo del Toro
                    talked about inn the below post:
                    http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/magazine/17-06/mf_deltoro?currentPage=2

                    del Toro: In the next 10 years, we're going to see all the forms of
                    > entertainment�film, television, video, games, and print�melding into a
                    > single-platform "story engine." The Model T of this new platform is the PS3.
                    > The moment you connect creative output with a public story engine, a
                    > narrative can continue over a period of months or years. It's going to
                    > rewrite the rules of fiction.
                    >
                    > Wired: It sounds like you're talking about an entirely new form of
                    > storytelling.
                    >
                    > del Toro: Think about the way oral tradition became written word�how what
                    > we know about Achilles was written many, many years after it made its way
                    > around the world with different names and different types of heroes. That
                    > can happen when you allow content to keep propagating itself through
                    > different kinds of platforms and engines�when you permit it to be retold
                    > with a promiscuous form of mythology. You see it when people create their
                    > own avatars in games and transfigure their game worlds.
                    >

                    This vision has been spoken before, but I think a more open source approach
                    to a "storyengine" is needed. It's great that people and companies make
                    money creating tools, but the fanatical need to be proprietary is sucking
                    the oxygen out of the creative process. Verdi and I recently talked about
                    all the hours of our of lives have been wasted discussing, experimenting,
                    troubleshooting, and teaching how to work with video codecs. Time could be
                    spent on more creative things.

                    Im looking forward to seeing anyone here at
                    http://openvideoconference.org/next weekend. We'll have a table set up
                    so people can hang out and
                    experiment with all this HTML5 stuff.

                    Jay

                    On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Jason Daniels<jdcreativity@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Michael,
                    > I just watched this video again because what you are talking about is
                    really
                    > important and I can't go to the Open Video Conference. Here are some
                    > reactions to what you talked about.
                    >
                    > 1) The Open Web, open code, open codec, open source movement has so much
                    > collective energy working towards it, nothing short of inspiring. The
                    video
                    > right in the browser with a specific video tag - wow!
                    >
                    > 2) So what if getting videos on the web involves a little voodoo? You have
                    > to concede that the barrier for publishing video to the web has been
                    lowered
                    > substantially and that the whole process is fairly accessible - that is
                    what
                    > freevlogging is based on. I don't find the learning curve to be
                    > excessivelly prohibitive - if a story needs to get to the web it gets to
                    the
                    > web. Yes, there are important stories that did not make it to the web -
                    but
                    > was that because the compression settings were too confusing? Some of the
                    > producers I have worked with at public access TV stations would not be
                    > deterred by something like that. Working with videomakers from halfway
                    > around the world poses much more of a problem. That is a structural
                    problem
                    > not a technical problem. Voodoo is cool, and not everyone is a witch
                    doctor
                    > - what kind of village would that be?
                    >
                    > 3) When you are talking about cameras adopting an Open Video Engine, I
                    think
                    > of the lower end cameras. But later, when you talk about collaborative
                    > workflow, bittorrent and p2p, the reference is to working in HD. Oh, that
                    > gorgeous HD....I'm drooling.....and I also simply can't imagine a scenario
                    > in which the big camera companies (sony, canon, jvc, panasonic) would ever
                    > entertain the idea of opening up their proprietary codecs. In fact, they
                    > seem to be moving in the entirely opposite direction where you buy a
                    > proprietary camera, you get proprietary recording media and then you go
                    into
                    > a proprietary editing system - no problem, works great - it is just
                    terribly
                    > expensive. Maybe the low end couldbreak out with a stellar camera and
                    maybe
                    > that is what is needed. Finding a venture capitalist to back an Open Video
                    > camera is one thing, but it is hard to envision the entire market going
                    > upside down.
                    >
                    > 4) The idea of using an open source content management to enable an 'low
                    res
                    > (offline)' edit that could then be 'up res to HD (online)' through p2p is
                    > just fantastic. Bandwidth is an issue, still, and I think the answer is to
                    > look at what open systems might have some bandwidth. Local municpal
                    > broadband projects might be looking for a way to jumpstart a community
                    media
                    > initiative. Sharing could happen at a local or regional level between
                    > shared Institutional networks. This is a cultural pipeline that is the
                    > working corridor for rich media under the Creative Commons. I am also
                    > seeking to work with those who are reinventing public access through this
                    > prism of Open Video.
                    >
                    > Jason


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Verdi
                    Hey Jason, Here s some more of what I m thinking. I spend a lot of time helping people get over the (thankfully, ever lowering) technical hurdles to getting
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hey Jason,
                      Here's some more of what I'm thinking.
                      I spend a lot of time helping people get over the (thankfully, ever
                      lowering) technical hurdles to getting things posted and that time
                      would be so much better spent helping people with the storytelling
                      voodoo. I would love for everyone to be a witch doctor in your
                      example, so we could stop focusing on how to be a witch doctor and
                      instead focus on being a great one.

                      As for codecs and cameras...
                      A great codec for the web is a start but it won't solve anything by
                      itself. As long as the stuff we shoot and edit is proprietary, the
                      open source editors will be just kid toys. HD is not just for the
                      expensive, high end cameras. You can buy cheap (<$500, some <$200)
                      consumer cameras right now that shoot 1080p. Imagine if there was a
                      great open source codec that could capture 1080p on an SD card. I
                      think we'd see more small manufactures taking chances with things like
                      the Flip camera - I'd love to see that! And those codecs that you
                      capture in are almost always crappy to edit with (at least the HD
                      ones) so we need a good editing codec. Imagine if we could all edit in
                      one codec. I could send you things that I've made and you could send
                      me your stuff and we wouldn't have to ask each other, "wait, what
                      editing program are you using?"
                      And you are right that the big companies aren't going to open their
                      stuff up. But they will add support for things if they become popular
                      enough (well maybe not MS).

                      And Jay,
                      Yes, I'd love a "story engine" but agree it would be a nightmare if
                      were locked into something like the PS3. But the idea of a common set
                      of standards to work with is where it's at. The ability to create
                      stuff with the tools of your choice and to watch/participate with the
                      tools of your choice would be awesome. Again, moving the conversation
                      away from the tech and hardware and on to art.

                      - Verdi

                      On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Jay dedman<jay.dedman@...> wrote:
                      > Jason's thoughts are a good one since I also cant help think we're moving
                      > towards something more than just a free video editor. When I think of this
                      > "Open Video Engine", I think of something the director Guillermo del Toro
                      > talked about inn the below post:
                      > http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/magazine/17-06/mf_deltoro?currentPage=2
                      >
                      >> del Toro:  In the next 10 years, we're going to see all the forms of
                      >> entertainment—film, television, video, games, and print—melding into a
                      >> single-platform "story engine." The Model T of this new platform is the PS3.
                      >> The moment you connect creative output with a public story engine, a
                      >> narrative can continue over a period of months or years. It's going to
                      >> rewrite the rules of fiction.
                      >>
                      >> Wired: It sounds like you're talking about an entirely new form of
                      >> storytelling.
                      >>
                      >> del Toro: Think about the way oral tradition became written word—how what
                      >> we know about Achilles was written many, many years after it made its way
                      >> around the world with different names and different types of heroes. That
                      >> can happen when you allow content to keep propagating itself through
                      >> different kinds of platforms and engines—when you permit it to be retold
                      >> with a promiscuous form of mythology. You see it when people create their
                      >> own avatars in games and transfigure their game worlds.
                      >
                      > This vision has been spoken before, but I think a more open source approach
                      > to a "storyengine" is needed. It's great that people and companies make
                      > money creating tools, but the fanatical need to be proprietary is sucking
                      > the oxygen out of the creative process. Verdi and I recently talked about
                      > all the hours of our of lives have been wasted discussing, experimenting,
                      > troubleshooting, and teaching how to work with video codecs. Time could be
                      > spent on more creative things.
                      >
                      > Im looking forward to seeing anyone here at http://openvideoconference.org/
                      > next weekend. We'll have a table set up so people can hang out and
                      > experiment with all this HTML5 stuff.
                      >
                      > Jay
                      >
                      > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Jason Daniels<jdcreativity@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Michael,
                      >> I just watched this video again because what you are talking about is
                      >> really
                      >> important and I can't go to the Open Video Conference. Here are some
                      >> reactions to what you talked about.
                      >>
                      >> 1) The Open Web, open code, open codec, open source movement has so much
                      >> collective energy working towards it, nothing short of inspiring. The
                      >> video
                      >> right in the browser with a specific video tag - wow!
                      >>
                      >> 2) So what if getting videos on the web involves a little voodoo? You have
                      >> to concede that the barrier for publishing video to the web has been
                      >> lowered
                      >> substantially and that the whole process is fairly accessible - that is
                      >> what
                      >> freevlogging is based on. I don't find the learning curve to be
                      >> excessivelly prohibitive - if a story needs to get to the web it gets to
                      >> the
                      >> web. Yes, there are important stories that did not make it to the web -
                      >> but
                      >> was that because the compression settings were too confusing? Some of the
                      >> producers I have worked with at public access TV stations would not be
                      >> deterred by something like that. Working with videomakers from halfway
                      >> around the world poses much more of a problem. That is a structural
                      >> problem
                      >> not a technical problem. Voodoo is cool, and not everyone is a witch
                      >> doctor
                      >> - what kind of village would that be?
                      >>
                      >> 3) When you are talking about cameras adopting an Open Video Engine, I
                      >> think
                      >> of the lower end cameras. But later, when you talk about collaborative
                      >> workflow, bittorrent and p2p, the reference is to working in HD. Oh, that
                      >> gorgeous HD....I'm drooling.....and I also simply can't imagine a scenario
                      >> in which the big camera companies (sony, canon, jvc, panasonic) would ever
                      >> entertain the idea of opening up their proprietary codecs. In fact, they
                      >> seem to be moving in the entirely opposite direction where you buy a
                      >> proprietary camera, you get proprietary recording media and then you go
                      >> into
                      >> a proprietary editing system - no problem, works great - it is just
                      >> terribly
                      >> expensive. Maybe the low end couldbreak out with a stellar camera and
                      >> maybe
                      >> that is what is needed. Finding a venture capitalist to back an Open Video
                      >> camera is one thing, but it is hard to envision the entire market going
                      >> upside down.
                      >>
                      >> 4) The idea of using an open source content management to enable an 'low
                      >> res
                      >> (offline)' edit that could then be 'up res to HD (online)' through p2p is
                      >> just fantastic. Bandwidth is an issue, still, and I think the answer is to
                      >> look at what open systems might have some bandwidth. Local municpal
                      >> broadband projects might be looking for a way to jumpstart a community
                      >> media
                      >> initiative. Sharing could happen at a local or regional level between
                      >> shared Institutional networks. This is a cultural pipeline that is the
                      >> working corridor for rich media under the Creative Commons. I am also
                      >> seeking to work with those who are reinventing public access through this
                      >> prism of Open Video.
                      >>
                      >> Jason
                      >
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                    • Heath
                      I don t know....While I would love to see an open platform , I really wonder how many people would actually use it? As I look back at my almost 4 years of
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
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                        I don't know....While I would love to see an "open platform", I really wonder how many people would actually use it? As I look back at my almost 4 years of vlogging, I think my greatest barrier to being creative, has actually been more myself than the software or codec or compression, etc.

                        It's the feeling that "this story" or "that story" is not good enough, the feeling of "I can't tell this story becuase I don't know "how" to tell it. Or I get an idea, start on it and then life gets in the way and this idea just sits there...

                        And I don't think I am alone in that regard....

                        What has been great about sites like Freevlog and the Yahoo group and others is the people who care enough to share and teach...And I would agrue that your time or Michael's time and countless others have not been "wasted" at all....I am sure that's not how you mean it, but I consider what you and others to have done of great importance....you have taught others how to "do"...that is no small task.

                        But to get back on topic, I am still just not sure if it's the software or the hardware that needs to be "open" or if it's just us as artists...allowing our works to be a part of another work to create a storyengine that tells a whole new story.....

                        Heath
                        http://heathparks.com

                        --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Jason's thoughts are a good one since I also cant help think we're moving
                        > towards something more than just a free video editor. When I think of this
                        > "Open Video Engine", I think of something the director Guillermo del Toro
                        > talked about inn the below post:
                        > http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/magazine/17-06/mf_deltoro?currentPage=2
                        >
                        > del Toro: In the next 10 years, we're going to see all the forms of
                        > > entertainment—film, television, video, games, and print—melding into a
                        > > single-platform "story engine." The Model T of this new platform is the PS3.
                        > > The moment you connect creative output with a public story engine, a
                        > > narrative can continue over a period of months or years. It's going to
                        > > rewrite the rules of fiction.
                        > >
                        > > Wired: It sounds like you're talking about an entirely new form of
                        > > storytelling.
                        > >
                        > > del Toro: Think about the way oral tradition became written word—how what
                        > > we know about Achilles was written many, many years after it made its way
                        > > around the world with different names and different types of heroes. That
                        > > can happen when you allow content to keep propagating itself through
                        > > different kinds of platforms and engines—when you permit it to be retold
                        > > with a promiscuous form of mythology. You see it when people create their
                        > > own avatars in games and transfigure their game worlds.
                        > >
                        >
                        > This vision has been spoken before, but I think a more open source approach
                        > to a "storyengine" is needed. It's great that people and companies make
                        > money creating tools, but the fanatical need to be proprietary is sucking
                        > the oxygen out of the creative process. Verdi and I recently talked about
                        > all the hours of our of lives have been wasted discussing, experimenting,
                        > troubleshooting, and teaching how to work with video codecs. Time could be
                        > spent on more creative things.
                        >
                        > Im looking forward to seeing anyone here at
                        > http://openvideoconference.org/next weekend. We'll have a table set up
                        > so people can hang out and
                        > experiment with all this HTML5 stuff.
                        >
                        > Jay
                        >
                        > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Jason Daniels<jdcreativity@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Michael,
                        > > I just watched this video again because what you are talking about is
                        > really
                        > > important and I can't go to the Open Video Conference. Here are some
                        > > reactions to what you talked about.
                        > >
                        > > 1) The Open Web, open code, open codec, open source movement has so much
                        > > collective energy working towards it, nothing short of inspiring. The
                        > video
                        > > right in the browser with a specific video tag - wow!
                        > >
                        > > 2) So what if getting videos on the web involves a little voodoo? You have
                        > > to concede that the barrier for publishing video to the web has been
                        > lowered
                        > > substantially and that the whole process is fairly accessible - that is
                        > what
                        > > freevlogging is based on. I don't find the learning curve to be
                        > > excessivelly prohibitive - if a story needs to get to the web it gets to
                        > the
                        > > web. Yes, there are important stories that did not make it to the web -
                        > but
                        > > was that because the compression settings were too confusing? Some of the
                        > > producers I have worked with at public access TV stations would not be
                        > > deterred by something like that. Working with videomakers from halfway
                        > > around the world poses much more of a problem. That is a structural
                        > problem
                        > > not a technical problem. Voodoo is cool, and not everyone is a witch
                        > doctor
                        > > - what kind of village would that be?
                        > >
                        > > 3) When you are talking about cameras adopting an Open Video Engine, I
                        > think
                        > > of the lower end cameras. But later, when you talk about collaborative
                        > > workflow, bittorrent and p2p, the reference is to working in HD. Oh, that
                        > > gorgeous HD....I'm drooling.....and I also simply can't imagine a scenario
                        > > in which the big camera companies (sony, canon, jvc, panasonic) would ever
                        > > entertain the idea of opening up their proprietary codecs. In fact, they
                        > > seem to be moving in the entirely opposite direction where you buy a
                        > > proprietary camera, you get proprietary recording media and then you go
                        > into
                        > > a proprietary editing system - no problem, works great - it is just
                        > terribly
                        > > expensive. Maybe the low end couldbreak out with a stellar camera and
                        > maybe
                        > > that is what is needed. Finding a venture capitalist to back an Open Video
                        > > camera is one thing, but it is hard to envision the entire market going
                        > > upside down.
                        > >
                        > > 4) The idea of using an open source content management to enable an 'low
                        > res
                        > > (offline)' edit that could then be 'up res to HD (online)' through p2p is
                        > > just fantastic. Bandwidth is an issue, still, and I think the answer is to
                        > > look at what open systems might have some bandwidth. Local municpal
                        > > broadband projects might be looking for a way to jumpstart a community
                        > media
                        > > initiative. Sharing could happen at a local or regional level between
                        > > shared Institutional networks. This is a cultural pipeline that is the
                        > > working corridor for rich media under the Creative Commons. I am also
                        > > seeking to work with those who are reinventing public access through this
                        > > prism of Open Video.
                        > >
                        > > Jason
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Jay dedman
                        ... You are correct. Creators just need to keep pushing their own work. I forget sometimes that most videobloggers (and anyone who puts video on the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
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                          > But to get back on topic, I am still just not sure if it's the software or
                          > the hardware that needs to be "open" or if it's just us as
                          > artists...allowing our works to be a part of another work to create a
                          > storyengine that tells a whole new story.....

                          You are correct. Creators just need to keep pushing their own work. I
                          forget sometimes that most videobloggers (and anyone who puts video on
                          the web)....are doing it in addition to having jobs, families,
                          problems, etc.

                          It's been said again and again: There is no longer a priest-caste to
                          make movies, videos, stories, journalism etc. But along with this
                          opening up, there also isn't a clear pattern/format for us to follow.
                          Infinite possibilities means infinite anxiety.

                          Might have been have easier when you knew you had to make a 22-minute
                          TV show, or a 90-minute movie, that was based on very narrow genre
                          expectations? The process of bureaucracy and obtaining approval/money
                          was almost comforting in a solid excuse for not creating? The chase of
                          the festival circuit was a predictable struggle?

                          Anyway...i still do think that an "open video/story engine" would
                          help. The fact that you use Sony Vegas and I use iMovie/FCP...makes it
                          a little more difficult for us to work together without having to
                          figure out the technical aspects in between.

                          Jay


                          --
                          http://ryanishungry.com
                          http://jaydedman.com
                          http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                          917 371 6790
                        • Heath
                          ... In that I completely agree...having a standard or open video editing/processing platform would be great for collaborations and I think we need to remember
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
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                            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...>
                            > Anyway...i still do think that an "open video/story engine" would
                            > help. The fact that you use Sony Vegas and I use iMovie/FCP...makes it
                            > a little more difficult for us to work together without having to
                            > figure out the technical aspects in between.
                            >
                            > Jay


                            In that I completely agree...having a standard or open video editing/processing platform would be great for collaborations and I think we need to remember that "open" doesn't have to mean free...because at some point that people making all this I am sure would like to have some compensation for their time, effort, etc...So some of being open to open standards is for us as storytellers editors, etc is to embrace these new techs and share the knowledge...

                            Although I will admit, it's hard to balance the creative and tech sides of me....

                            Heath
                            http://heathparks.com

                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > http://ryanishungry.com
                            > http://jaydedman.com
                            > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                            > 917 371 6790
                            >
                          • Michael Sullivan
                            is h264 not ok as master source video codec (and final output) for both vegas and fcp/imovie? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
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                              is h264 not ok as master source video codec (and final output) for both
                              vegas and fcp/imovie?


                              On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > > But to get back on topic, I am still just not sure if it's the software
                              > or
                              > > the hardware that needs to be "open" or if it's just us as
                              > > artists...allowing our works to be a part of another work to create a
                              > > storyengine that tells a whole new story.....
                              >
                              > You are correct. Creators just need to keep pushing their own work. I
                              > forget sometimes that most videobloggers (and anyone who puts video on
                              > the web)....are doing it in addition to having jobs, families,
                              > problems, etc.
                              >
                              > It's been said again and again: There is no longer a priest-caste to
                              > make movies, videos, stories, journalism etc. But along with this
                              > opening up, there also isn't a clear pattern/format for us to follow.
                              > Infinite possibilities means infinite anxiety.
                              >
                              > Might have been have easier when you knew you had to make a 22-minute
                              > TV show, or a 90-minute movie, that was based on very narrow genre
                              > expectations? The process of bureaucracy and obtaining approval/money
                              > was almost comforting in a solid excuse for not creating? The chase of
                              > the festival circuit was a predictable struggle?
                              >
                              > Anyway...i still do think that an "open video/story engine" would
                              > help. The fact that you use Sony Vegas and I use iMovie/FCP...makes it
                              > a little more difficult for us to work together without having to
                              > figure out the technical aspects in between.
                              >
                              > Jay
                              >
                              > --
                              > http://ryanishungry.com
                              > http://jaydedman.com
                              > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                              > 917 371 6790
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Michael Sullivan
                              the open part of video editing tools should prob just be that of an XML format that lays out the instructions for an edited and produced video... with all
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
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                                the "open" part of video editing tools should prob just be that of an XML
                                format that lays out the instructions for an edited and produced video...
                                with all effects, cuts, layers, paths, filenames and other metadata etc
                                defined.
                                then the software out there SHOULD be compatible as handlers and allow for
                                import of these instructions. since proprietary apps will not care and also
                                may have their own XML format for such things, open source apps would be
                                created in tandem.... and eventually, some of the popular editing tools may
                                support the standard in the future.... which can include supporting ogg or
                                other open codecs.

                                imagine if we all made videos using SMIL?

                                sull

                                On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Heath <heathparks@...> wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...>
                                > > Anyway...i still do think that an "open video/story engine" would
                                > > help. The fact that you use Sony Vegas and I use iMovie/FCP...makes it
                                > > a little more difficult for us to work together without having to
                                > > figure out the technical aspects in between.
                                > >
                                > > Jay
                                >
                                > In that I completely agree...having a standard or open video
                                > editing/processing platform would be great for collaborations and I think we
                                > need to remember that "open" doesn't have to mean free...because at some
                                > point that people making all this I am sure would like to have some
                                > compensation for their time, effort, etc...So some of being open to open
                                > standards is for us as storytellers editors, etc is to embrace these new
                                > techs and share the knowledge...
                                >
                                > Although I will admit, it's hard to balance the creative and tech sides of
                                > me....
                                >
                                > Heath
                                > http://heathparks.com
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > http://ryanishungry.com
                                > > http://jaydedman.com
                                > > http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                                > > 917 371 6790
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jay dedman
                                ... Sure, that s doable. But if we re really talking about collaboration, lets shoot for the stars. We should be able to swap project files, compression
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 10, 2009
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                                  > is h264 not ok as master source video codec (and final output) for both
                                  > vegas and fcp/imovie?

                                  Sure, that's doable.

                                  But if we're really talking about collaboration, lets shoot for the
                                  stars. We should be able to swap project files, compression settings,
                                  fonts, make music together, sceensharing...and IM within the editing
                                  project.

                                  Jay

                                  --
                                  http://ryanishungry.com
                                  http://jaydedman.com
                                  http://twitter.com/jaydedman
                                  917 371 6790
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