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Re: encoding 16:9 for iPod on PC

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  • Bill Cammack
    I use a mac. I don t know it that makes instructions different from a PC. I ve never clicked anything that says low complexity . When you get to the
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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      I use a mac. I don't know it that makes instructions different from a
      PC. I've never clicked anything that says "low complexity". When you
      get to the selection area, "Main" is selected by default. I click
      "Baseline" and that's it. From FCP, for instance:

      Export to Mpeg4
      Compression: h.264
      640x360
      1400 kbps
      30 fps (or 24, depending)
      Select "Baseline"

      Also, check out http://www.freevlog.org/ for their tutorials.

      Bill
      http://BillCammack.com

      --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > I've been happily using QT Pro on the PC to convert 4:3 DV into
      iPod-compatible 320x240 baseline
      > h.264 @ 608kpbs ever since the the first video iPod was introduced.
      Now I've been persuaded to start
      > shooting 16:9 and I'm wondering how to best to encode it for iPod. A
      couple of things puzzle me.
      >
      > 1) I note that in the spec
      http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/podcaststechspecs.html it gives the
      newer option:
      > H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 x 480, 30 frames per sec.,
      Low-Complexity version of the Baseline Profile
      > with AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v,
      .mp4, and .mov file formats
      >
      > However the h.264 options in QT Pro only give 'baseline' or 'main'
      but no 'low-complexity'?
      >
      > 2) Googling around I see some mention of 640x352 as being the
      optimum size for 16:9 - why not 640x360?
      >
      > All advice appreciated.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Joly
      >
      > punkcast.com
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------------------------------------
      > WWWhatsup NYC
      > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
      > ---------------------------------------------------------------
      >
    • David King
      Bill - does that size make it back through itunes onto an ipod? I thought ipod compatible videos had a smaller kbps cap, like around 6-700? David ... -- David
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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        Bill - does that size make it back through itunes onto an ipod? I thought
        ipod compatible videos had a smaller kbps cap, like around 6-700?

        David

        On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Bill Cammack <billcammack@...> wrote:

        > I use a mac. I don't know it that makes instructions different from a
        > PC. I've never clicked anything that says "low complexity". When you
        > get to the selection area, "Main" is selected by default. I click
        > "Baseline" and that's it. From FCP, for instance:
        >
        > Export to Mpeg4
        > Compression: h.264
        > 640x360
        > 1400 kbps
        > 30 fps (or 24, depending)
        > Select "Baseline"
        >
        > Also, check out http://www.freevlog.org/ for their tutorials.
        >
        > Bill
        > http://BillCammack.com
        >
        > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > WWWhatsup <joly@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I've been happily using QT Pro on the PC to convert 4:3 DV into
        > iPod-compatible 320x240 baseline
        > > h.264 @ 608kpbs ever since the the first video iPod was introduced.
        > Now I've been persuaded to start
        > > shooting 16:9 and I'm wondering how to best to encode it for iPod. A
        > couple of things puzzle me.
        > >
        > > 1) I note that in the spec
        > http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/podcaststechspecs.html it gives the
        > newer option:
        > > H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 x 480, 30 frames per sec.,
        > Low-Complexity version of the Baseline Profile
        > > with AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v,
        > .mp4, and .mov file formats
        > >
        > > However the h.264 options in QT Pro only give 'baseline' or 'main'
        > but no 'low-complexity'?
        > >
        > > 2) Googling around I see some mention of 640x352 as being the
        > optimum size for 16:9 - why not 640x360?
        > >
        > > All advice appreciated.
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > >
        > > Joly
        > >
        > > punkcast.com
        > >
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > WWWhatsup NYC
        > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        >
        >
        >



        --
        David King
        davidleeking.com - blog
        http://davidleeking.com/etc - videoblog


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • WWWhatsup
        ... Well that s the very point, apparently not, since firmware 1.2, as long as the files are encoded as low-complexity h.264, the limit goes up to 1.5mpbs.
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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          At 08:23 2008-04-04, David King wrote:
          >Bill - does that size make it back through itunes onto an ipod? I thought
          >ipod compatible videos had a smaller kbps cap, like around 6-700?
          >
          >David


          Well that's the very point, apparently not, since firmware 1.2, as long as the files
          are encoded as 'low-complexity' h.264, the limit goes up to 1.5mpbs.

          I've finally found some info on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html
          which is aimed at application authors wanting to incorporate QTPro functionality into
          their programs.

          Only the 'export to iPod' option gives you the 'low complexity' profile, and that is
          only applied to sources that are bigger than 320x240. Sources that are bigger
          than 640x480 are scaled to fit. These are the sizes & profiles applied

          320x240 or less as source baseline 1.3
          >320x240 up to 640x480 as source baseline LC
          >640x480 scaled to fit preserving aspect ratio baseline LC


          I assume this cures the letterboxing that used to occur when converting NTSC DV which is why
          old-schoolers like me avoided the iPod preset in the first place.

          As far as bitrates go:

          320 x240 goes at 700kbps
          640x480 at 1.5mps
          and anything else somewhere between the two according to this formula:
          DR = { (nMC * 8 ) / 3 } - 100 where DR is the data rate in kbps and nMC is the number of macroblocks in the image.


          Then comes the bit about 16:9 and I get confused again. Some code is illustrated to
          demonstrate 'aperture modes' After a couple of pics that indicate that
          widescreen video will become a little squished on a classic iPod. It says

          IMPORTANT: As shown in Table 4, the iPod export component will only scale movie images larger than 640x480 to fit while maintaining aspect ratio to produce Baseline Low-Complexity profile .m4v files. If you want to produce Baseline profile .m4v files up to 320x240 or Baseline Low-Complexity profile files larger than 320x240 (but smaller than or equal to 640x480), you will need to correct for aspect ratio yourself.

          Could someone explain that, please?


          > I use a mac. I don't know it that makes instructions different from a
          > PC. I've never clicked anything that says "low complexity". When you
          > get to the selection area, "Main" is selected by default. I click
          > "Baseline" and that's it. From FCP, for instance:
          >
          > Export to Mpeg4
          > Compression: h.264
          > 640x360
          > 1400 kbps
          > 30 fps (or 24, depending)
          > Select "Baseline"

          Bill, I always understood that that option gives the 1.3 profile, am I wrong?

          I take it that you've tested that on an iPod. In which case I must be.

          I'll admit that I've never owned one of the b*****rs

          Joly




          >On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Bill Cammack <billcammack@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>
          >> Also, check out http://www.freevlog.org/ for their tutorials.
          >>
          >> Bill
          >> http://BillCammack.com
          >>
          >> --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com>,
          >> WWWhatsup <joly@...> wrote:
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > I've been happily using QT Pro on the PC to convert 4:3 DV into
          >> iPod-compatible 320x240 baseline
          >> > h.264 @ 608kpbs ever since the the first video iPod was introduced.
          >> Now I've been persuaded to start
          >> > shooting 16:9 and I'm wondering how to best to encode it for iPod. A
          >> couple of things puzzle me.
          >> >
          >> > 1) I note that in the spec
          >> http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/podcaststechspecs.html it gives the
          >> newer option:
          >> > H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 x 480, 30 frames per sec.,
          >> Low-Complexity version of the Baseline Profile
          >> > with AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v,
          >> .mp4, and .mov file formats
          >> >
          >> > However the h.264 options in QT Pro only give 'baseline' or 'main'
          >> but no 'low-complexity'?
          >> >
          >> > 2) Googling around I see some mention of 640x352 as being the
          >> optimum size for 16:9 - why not 640x360?
          >> >
          >> > All advice appreciated.
          >> >
          >> > Thanks
          >> >
          >> > Joly
          >> >
          >> > punkcast.com
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >> > WWWhatsup NYC
          >> > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
          >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >--
          >David King
          >davidleeking.com - blog
          >http://davidleeking.com/etc - videoblog
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          ---------------------------------------------------------------
          WWWhatsup NYC
          http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
          ---------------------------------------------------------------
        • Bill Cammack
          The specs are on the Apple site: Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second,
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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            The specs are on the Apple site:

            <http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>

            "Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per
            second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with
            AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and
            .mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
            frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio
            up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file
            formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames
            per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz,
            stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"

            So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with these
            data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm using
            right now.

            If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.

            Bill
            http://BillCammack.com


            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "David King" <davidleeking@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Bill - does that size make it back through itunes onto an ipod? I
            thought
            > ipod compatible videos had a smaller kbps cap, like around 6-700?
            >
            > David
            >
            > On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Bill Cammack <billcammack@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I use a mac. I don't know it that makes instructions different
            from a
            > > PC. I've never clicked anything that says "low complexity". When you
            > > get to the selection area, "Main" is selected by default. I click
            > > "Baseline" and that's it. From FCP, for instance:
            > >
            > > Export to Mpeg4
            > > Compression: h.264
            > > 640x360
            > > 1400 kbps
            > > 30 fps (or 24, depending)
            > > Select "Baseline"
            > >
            > > Also, check out http://www.freevlog.org/ for their tutorials.
            > >
            > > Bill
            > > http://BillCammack.com
            > >
            > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
            <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I've been happily using QT Pro on the PC to convert 4:3 DV into
            > > iPod-compatible 320x240 baseline
            > > > h.264 @ 608kpbs ever since the the first video iPod was introduced.
            > > Now I've been persuaded to start
            > > > shooting 16:9 and I'm wondering how to best to encode it for iPod. A
            > > couple of things puzzle me.
            > > >
            > > > 1) I note that in the spec
            > > http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/podcaststechspecs.html it gives the
            > > newer option:
            > > > H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 x 480, 30 frames per sec.,
            > > Low-Complexity version of the Baseline Profile
            > > > with AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v,
            > > .mp4, and .mov file formats
            > > >
            > > > However the h.264 options in QT Pro only give 'baseline' or 'main'
            > > but no 'low-complexity'?
            > > >
            > > > 2) Googling around I see some mention of 640x352 as being the
            > > optimum size for 16:9 - why not 640x360?
            > > >
            > > > All advice appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks
            > > >
            > > > Joly
            > > >
            > > > punkcast.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
            > > > WWWhatsup NYC
            > > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
            > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > David King
            > davidleeking.com - blog
            > http://davidleeking.com/etc - videoblog
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Bill Cammack
            ... thought ... long as the files ... http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html ... functionality into ... profile, and that is ... are bigger
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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              --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > At 08:23 2008-04-04, David King wrote:
              > >Bill - does that size make it back through itunes onto an ipod? I
              thought
              > >ipod compatible videos had a smaller kbps cap, like around 6-700?
              > >
              > >David
              >
              >
              > Well that's the very point, apparently not, since firmware 1.2, as
              long as the files
              > are encoded as 'low-complexity' h.264, the limit goes up to 1.5mpbs.
              >
              > I've finally found some info on
              http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html
              > which is aimed at application authors wanting to incorporate QTPro
              functionality into
              > their programs.
              >
              > Only the 'export to iPod' option gives you the 'low complexity'
              profile, and that is
              > only applied to sources that are bigger than 320x240. Sources that
              are bigger
              > than 640x480 are scaled to fit. These are the sizes & profiles applied
              >
              > 320x240 or less as source baseline 1.3
              > >320x240 up to 640x480 as source baseline LC
              > >640x480 scaled to fit preserving aspect ratio
              baseline LC
              >
              >
              > I assume this cures the letterboxing that used to occur when
              converting NTSC DV which is why
              > old-schoolers like me avoided the iPod preset in the first place.
              >
              > As far as bitrates go:
              >
              > 320 x240 goes at 700kbps
              > 640x480 at 1.5mps
              > and anything else somewhere between the two according to this formula:
              > DR = { (nMC * 8 ) / 3 } - 100 where DR is the data rate in kbps and
              nMC is the number of macroblocks in the image.
              >
              >
              > Then comes the bit about 16:9 and I get confused again. Some code is
              illustrated to
              > demonstrate 'aperture modes' After a couple of pics that indicate that
              > widescreen video will become a little squished on a classic iPod. It
              says
              >
              > IMPORTANT: As shown in Table 4, the iPod export component will only
              scale movie images larger than 640x480 to fit while maintaining aspect
              ratio to produce Baseline Low-Complexity profile .m4v files. If you
              want to produce Baseline profile .m4v files up to 320x240 or Baseline
              Low-Complexity profile files larger than 320x240 (but smaller than or
              equal to 640x480), you will need to correct for aspect ratio yourself.
              >
              > Could someone explain that, please?

              It seems like what they're saying is that if you're in between 640x480
              and 320x240, you have to make sure the aspect ratio is correct on your
              own. I don't know what sense that makes, really. Once you're making
              the video, you already HAVE an aspect ratio.


              > > I use a mac. I don't know it that makes instructions different
              from a
              > > PC. I've never clicked anything that says "low complexity". When you
              > > get to the selection area, "Main" is selected by default. I click
              > > "Baseline" and that's it. From FCP, for instance:
              > >
              > > Export to Mpeg4
              > > Compression: h.264
              > > 640x360
              > > 1400 kbps
              > > 30 fps (or 24, depending)
              > > Select "Baseline"
              >
              > Bill, I always understood that that option gives the 1.3 profile, am
              I wrong?
              >
              > I take it that you've tested that on an iPod. In which case I must be.
              >
              > I'll admit that I've never owned one of the b*****rs
              >
              > Joly

              Well, that's just the thing. :) When I set up a video as an
              enclosure, I open my iTunes to my feed, update, and as soon as the
              video gets to my computer, I send it to the Nano. That way, I know if
              there are any encoding problems.

              I've only done this with 5th Gen iPods and my Nano, so I can't say
              that the specs I gave work for older iPods. I also don't use a PC, so
              I can't say whether there are different requirements because of that.

              Check http://freevlog.org

              Bill
              http://BillCammack.com


              > >On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Bill Cammack <billcammack@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >>
              > >> Also, check out http://www.freevlog.org/ for their tutorials.
              > >>
              > >> Bill
              > >> http://BillCammack.com
              > >>
              > >> --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
              <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > >> WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > I've been happily using QT Pro on the PC to convert 4:3 DV into
              > >> iPod-compatible 320x240 baseline
              > >> > h.264 @ 608kpbs ever since the the first video iPod was introduced.
              > >> Now I've been persuaded to start
              > >> > shooting 16:9 and I'm wondering how to best to encode it for
              iPod. A
              > >> couple of things puzzle me.
              > >> >
              > >> > 1) I note that in the spec
              > >> http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/podcaststechspecs.html it gives the
              > >> newer option:
              > >> > H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 x 480, 30 frames per sec.,
              > >> Low-Complexity version of the Baseline Profile
              > >> > with AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v,
              > >> .mp4, and .mov file formats
              > >> >
              > >> > However the h.264 options in QT Pro only give 'baseline' or 'main'
              > >> but no 'low-complexity'?
              > >> >
              > >> > 2) Googling around I see some mention of 640x352 as being the
              > >> optimum size for 16:9 - why not 640x360?
              > >> >
              > >> > All advice appreciated.
              > >> >
              > >> > Thanks
              > >> >
              > >> > Joly
              > >> >
              > >> > punkcast.com
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > >> > WWWhatsup NYC
              > >> > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
              > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >--
              > >David King
              > >davidleeking.com - blog
              > >http://davidleeking.com/etc - videoblog
              > >
              > >
              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >------------------------------------
              > >
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------
              > WWWhatsup NYC
              > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------
              >
            • WWWhatsup
              ... I think I get it. What they are saying is that if the input is 720x480 16:9 dv the encoder will correctly scale to 640x360. If you want anything smaller
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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                At 16:36 2008-04-04, Bill C. wrote:
                >> IMPORTANT: As shown in Table 4, the iPod export component will only
                >scale movie images larger than 640x480 to fit while maintaining aspect
                >ratio to produce Baseline Low-Complexity profile .m4v files. If you
                >want to produce Baseline profile .m4v files up to 320x240 or Baseline
                >Low-Complexity profile files larger than 320x240 (but smaller than or
                >equal to 640x480), you will need to correct for aspect ratio yourself.
                >>
                >> Could someone explain that, please?
                >
                >It seems like what they're saying is that if you're in between 640x480
                >and 320x240, you have to make sure the aspect ratio is correct on your
                >own. I don't know what sense that makes, really. Once you're making
                >the video, you already HAVE an aspect ratio.


                I think I get it. What they are saying is that if the input is 720x480 16:9 dv the
                encoder will correctly scale to 640x360. If you want anything smaller
                you've got to make a correct size master.

                Am I right?

                Thanks for the attention, Bill. I will make a short piece in win QT Pro
                using your settings to be tested.

                joly


                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                WWWhatsup NYC
                http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                ---------------------------------------------------------------
              • WWWhatsup
                ... Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro s options does it mention Low complexity and on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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                  At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                  >The specs are on the Apple site:
                  >
                  ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                  >
                  >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per
                  >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with
                  >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and
                  >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                  >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio
                  >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file
                  >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames
                  >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz,
                  >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                  >
                  >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with these
                  >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm using
                  >right now.
                  >
                  >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                  >
                  >Bill
                  >http://BillCammack.com

                  Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it mention 'Low complexity'
                  and on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it specifically says

                  "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile has been defined by Apple for the iPod "

                  which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.

                  That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                  which, in turn, says:
                  "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile, Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and bitrates up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video content." with a ref to
                  http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which is pr fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't mention classic or LC at all.

                  I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets is max stored frames)

                  level 1.3 = 352x288@30.0 (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                  level 2.1 = 352x480@30.0 (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                  level 3 = 720x480@30.0 (6) @ 10 Mbit/s

                  which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little far-fetched.

                  It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264 option in QTPro can be used to
                  create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity' option. Maybe low is relative in this aspect?

                  Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder

                  Joly



                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  WWWhatsup NYC
                  http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                • Bill Cammack
                  Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com writes: Baseline
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 4, 2008
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                    Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com writes:

                    <http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html>

                    "Baseline Low-Complexity" is something they made up. It basically
                    means "Baseline with 1 reference frame".

                    After a weekend of trial, error, hex reading, and headaches, I
                    learned the following:
                    Apple is using special tags to prevent iTunes from accepting 3rd-
                    party-created .mp4 files.
                    This seems to be similar to the PSP limitations....

                    --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                    > >The specs are on the Apple site:
                    > >
                    > ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                    > >
                    > >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per
                    > >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with
                    > >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and
                    > >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                    > >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio
                    > >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file
                    > >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames
                    > >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz,
                    > >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                    > >
                    > >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with these
                    > >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm using
                    > >right now.
                    > >
                    > >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                    > >
                    > >Bill
                    > >http://BillCammack.com
                    >
                    > Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it mention
                    'Low complexity'
                    > and on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                    specifically says
                    >
                    > "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile has been
                    defined by Apple for the iPod "
                    >
                    > which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.
                    >
                    > That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                    > which, in turn, says:
                    > "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile,
                    Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and bitrates
                    up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video content."
                    with a ref to
                    > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which is pr
                    fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't mention
                    classic or LC at all.
                    >
                    > I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets is max
                    stored frames)
                    >
                    > level 1.3 = 352x288@... (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                    > level 2.1 = 352x480@... (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                    > level 3 = 720x480@... (6) @ 10 Mbit/s
                    >
                    > which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little far-fetched.
                    >
                    > It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264 option
                    in QTPro can be used to
                    > create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity' option.
                    Maybe low is relative in this aspect?
                    >
                    > Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder
                    >
                    > Joly
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    > WWWhatsup NYC
                    > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                    > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                  • Steve Watkins
                    Yeah I found that link too, its a bit dated so not sure if its still true. Certainly I think 3rd party encoders found a way to make their stuff compatible. And
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 5, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yeah I found that link too, its a bit dated so not sure if its still true.

                      Certainly I think 3rd party encoders found a way to make their stuff compatible.

                      And as all these issues cause brain melt, my conclusion in the past was to use 3rd party
                      encoders if I wanted precise control & ipod compatibility.

                      And as a further complication, are people catering much for iphone & ipod touch? Because
                      the max res for those seems to be 480x360.

                      Cheers

                      Steve Elbows

                      --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com writes:
                      >
                      > <http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html>
                      >
                      > "Baseline Low-Complexity" is something they made up. It basically
                      > means "Baseline with 1 reference frame".
                      >
                      > After a weekend of trial, error, hex reading, and headaches, I
                      > learned the following:
                      > Apple is using special tags to prevent iTunes from accepting 3rd-
                      > party-created .mp4 files.
                      > This seems to be similar to the PSP limitations....
                      >
                      > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                      > > >The specs are on the Apple site:
                      > > >
                      > > ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                      > > >
                      > > >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per
                      > > >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with
                      > > >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and
                      > > >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                      > > >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio
                      > > >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file
                      > > >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames
                      > > >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz,
                      > > >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                      > > >
                      > > >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with these
                      > > >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm using
                      > > >right now.
                      > > >
                      > > >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                      > > >
                      > > >Bill
                      > > >http://BillCammack.com
                      > >
                      > > Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it mention
                      > 'Low complexity'
                      > > and on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                      > specifically says
                      > >
                      > > "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile has been
                      > defined by Apple for the iPod "
                      > >
                      > > which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.
                      > >
                      > > That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                      > > which, in turn, says:
                      > > "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile,
                      > Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and bitrates
                      > up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video content."
                      > with a ref to
                      > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which is pr
                      > fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't mention
                      > classic or LC at all.
                      > >
                      > > I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets is max
                      > stored frames)
                      > >
                      > > level 1.3 = 352x288@ (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                      > > level 2.1 = 352x480@ (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                      > > level 3 = 720x480@ (6) @ 10 Mbit/s
                      > >
                      > > which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little far-fetched.
                      > >
                      > > It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264 option
                      > in QTPro can be used to
                      > > create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity' option.
                      > Maybe low is relative in this aspect?
                      > >
                      > > Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder
                      > >
                      > > Joly
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      > > WWWhatsup NYC
                      > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                      > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      >
                    • Bill Cammack
                      I don t make anything
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 5, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I don't make anything < 640w. My Vlog Deathmatch official entry video
                        is the only one I can remember making 480w.

                        I tend to be "elitist" when I make videos. As long as I can get it
                        from my iTunes feed and it plays in my Nano, I'm good with it. :)
                        That doesn't mean it's backwards compatible with other iPods. I've
                        never tested that. I also don't own an iPhone, so I've never tested
                        whether my videos, which are all at this point in the progression of
                        my feed are 640w or wider, play on the iPhone at all.

                        Then again, it's not like I have a large audience or any requirement
                        to make videos that people with 800 mHz iMacs can watch. For
                        instance, I encode my flash around 1400 kbps, which is a strain on
                        older systems.

                        I'll be interested to find out if my videos DON'T play on iPhones,
                        because I'm *still* not going to make lower-resolution videos. :D

                        Bill Cammack
                        http://BillCammack.com

                        --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Watkins" <steve@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yeah I found that link too, its a bit dated so not sure if its still
                        true.
                        >
                        > Certainly I think 3rd party encoders found a way to make their stuff
                        compatible.
                        >
                        > And as all these issues cause brain melt, my conclusion in the past
                        was to use 3rd party
                        > encoders if I wanted precise control & ipod compatibility.
                        >
                        > And as a further complication, are people catering much for iphone &
                        ipod touch? Because
                        > the max res for those seems to be 480x360.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > Steve Elbows
                        >
                        > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com writes:
                        > >
                        > >
                        <http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html>
                        > >
                        > > "Baseline Low-Complexity" is something they made up. It basically
                        > > means "Baseline with 1 reference frame".
                        > >
                        > > After a weekend of trial, error, hex reading, and headaches, I
                        > > learned the following:
                        > > Apple is using special tags to prevent iTunes from accepting 3rd-
                        > > party-created .mp4 files.
                        > > This seems to be similar to the PSP limitations....
                        > >
                        > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                        > > > >The specs are on the Apple site:
                        > > > >
                        > > > ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                        > > > >
                        > > > >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                        frames per
                        > > > >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with
                        > > > >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and
                        > > > >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480
                        pixels, 30
                        > > > >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC
                        audio
                        > > > >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file
                        > > > >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames
                        > > > >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz,
                        > > > >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                        > > > >
                        > > > >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with
                        these
                        > > > >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm using
                        > > > >right now.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Bill
                        > > > >http://BillCammack.com
                        > > >
                        > > > Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it mention
                        > > 'Low complexity'
                        > > > and on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                        > > specifically says
                        > > >
                        > > > "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile has been
                        > > defined by Apple for the iPod "
                        > > >
                        > > > which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.
                        > > >
                        > > > That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                        > > > which, in turn, says:
                        > > > "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile,
                        > > Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and bitrates
                        > > up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video content."
                        > > with a ref to
                        > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which is pr
                        > > fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't mention
                        > > classic or LC at all.
                        > > >
                        > > > I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets is max
                        > > stored frames)
                        > > >
                        > > > level 1.3 = 352x288@ (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                        > > > level 2.1 = 352x480@ (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                        > > > level 3 = 720x480@ (6) @ 10 Mbit/s
                        > > >
                        > > > which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little
                        far-fetched.
                        > > >
                        > > > It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264 option
                        > > in QTPro can be used to
                        > > > create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity' option.
                        > > Maybe low is relative in this aspect?
                        > > >
                        > > > Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder
                        > > >
                        > > > Joly
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > > WWWhatsup NYC
                        > > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                        > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Steve Watkins
                        OK I tried on the ipod touch, which should give same results as iphone. I tried your last 2 videos. Both of them transfered to the ipod touch via itunes, and
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 8, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          OK I tried on the ipod touch, which should give same results as iphone.

                          I tried your last 2 videos. Both of them transfered to the ipod touch
                          via itunes, and played fine. One was a 640x480 h264 and the other was
                          a 700x400 mpeg4.

                          So I guess the iphone spec is what they recommend, as opposed to the
                          limits of what it will play. Which is a relief as I dont see many
                          people going for 480x res.

                          But now Im curious as to how come the latest video was mpeg4 rather
                          than h264?

                          Cheers

                          Steve Elbows

                          --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't make anything < 640w. My Vlog Deathmatch official entry video
                          > is the only one I can remember making 480w.
                          >
                          > I tend to be "elitist" when I make videos. As long as I can get it
                          > from my iTunes feed and it plays in my Nano, I'm good with it. :)
                          > That doesn't mean it's backwards compatible with other iPods. I've
                          > never tested that. I also don't own an iPhone, so I've never tested
                          > whether my videos, which are all at this point in the progression of
                          > my feed are 640w or wider, play on the iPhone at all.
                          >
                          > Then again, it's not like I have a large audience or any requirement
                          > to make videos that people with 800 mHz iMacs can watch. For
                          > instance, I encode my flash around 1400 kbps, which is a strain on
                          > older systems.
                          >
                          > I'll be interested to find out if my videos DON'T play on iPhones,
                          > because I'm *still* not going to make lower-resolution videos. :D
                          >
                          > Bill Cammack
                          > http://BillCammack.com
                          >
                          > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Watkins" <steve@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Yeah I found that link too, its a bit dated so not sure if its still
                          > true.
                          > >
                          > > Certainly I think 3rd party encoders found a way to make their stuff
                          > compatible.
                          > >
                          > > And as all these issues cause brain melt, my conclusion in the past
                          > was to use 3rd party
                          > > encoders if I wanted precise control & ipod compatibility.
                          > >
                          > > And as a further complication, are people catering much for iphone &
                          > ipod touch? Because
                          > > the max res for those seems to be 480x360.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers
                          > >
                          > > Steve Elbows
                          > >
                          > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com
                          writes:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          >
                          <http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html>
                          > > >
                          > > > "Baseline Low-Complexity" is something they made up. It basically
                          > > > means "Baseline with 1 reference frame".
                          > > >
                          > > > After a weekend of trial, error, hex reading, and headaches, I
                          > > > learned the following:
                          > > > Apple is using special tags to prevent iTunes from accepting 3rd-
                          > > > party-created .mp4 files.
                          > > > This seems to be similar to the PSP limitations....
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                          > > > > >The specs are on the Apple site:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                          > frames per
                          > > > > >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with
                          > > > > >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v,
                          .mp4, and
                          > > > > >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480
                          > pixels, 30
                          > > > > >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC
                          > audio
                          > > > > >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file
                          > > > > >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                          frames
                          > > > > >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps,
                          48kHz,
                          > > > > >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with
                          > these
                          > > > > >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm
                          using
                          > > > > >right now.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >Bill
                          > > > > >http://BillCammack.com
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it mention
                          > > > 'Low complexity'
                          > > > > and on http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                          > > > specifically says
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile has been
                          > > > defined by Apple for the iPod "
                          > > > >
                          > > > > which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                          > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                          > > > > which, in turn, says:
                          > > > > "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile,
                          > > > Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and
                          bitrates
                          > > > up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video
                          content."
                          > > > with a ref to
                          > > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which is pr
                          > > > fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't mention
                          > > > classic or LC at all.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets
                          is max
                          > > > stored frames)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > level 1.3 = 352x288@ (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                          > > > > level 2.1 = 352x480@ (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                          > > > > level 3 = 720x480@ (6) @ 10 Mbit/s
                          > > > >
                          > > > > which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little
                          > far-fetched.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264 option
                          > > > in QTPro can be used to
                          > > > > create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity'
                          option.
                          > > > Maybe low is relative in this aspect?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Joly
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > > > WWWhatsup NYC
                          > > > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                          > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Bill Cammack
                          ... Thanks for checking that out, Steve. :) ... Yeah. I don t know why it s like that. The way I saw it, if it played on a Nano @ 720x400, there s no reason
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 9, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Watkins" <steve@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > OK I tried on the ipod touch, which should give same results as iphone.
                            >
                            > I tried your last 2 videos. Both of them transfered to the ipod touch
                            > via itunes, and played fine. One was a 640x480 h264 and the other was
                            > a 700x400 mpeg4.

                            Thanks for checking that out, Steve. :)

                            > So I guess the iphone spec is what they recommend, as opposed to the
                            > limits of what it will play. Which is a relief as I dont see many
                            > people going for 480x res.

                            Yeah. I don't know why it's like that. The way I saw it, if it
                            played on a Nano @ 720x400, there's no reason it shouldn't play on an
                            iPhone, etc... but not having one, I couldn't say for sure.

                            > But now Im curious as to how come the latest video was mpeg4 rather
                            > than h264?

                            The h.264 video was of Gary Vaynerchuk, which I shot from my still
                            camera and brought into FCP. I made that video directly from FCP.

                            The mp4, which is my normal format, was shot and edited in HD. I used
                            visualhub to make my versions, which creates mp4 files.

                            Because I made the Gary video from a 640x480 source instead of a
                            1440x1080 hdv source, there was no reason for me to output a 'master'
                            file and then make versions with visualhub.


                            Bill Cammack
                            http://BillCammack.com

                            > Cheers
                            >
                            > Steve Elbows
                            >
                            > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I don't make anything < 640w. My Vlog Deathmatch official entry video
                            > > is the only one I can remember making 480w.
                            > >
                            > > I tend to be "elitist" when I make videos. As long as I can get it
                            > > from my iTunes feed and it plays in my Nano, I'm good with it. :)
                            > > That doesn't mean it's backwards compatible with other iPods. I've
                            > > never tested that. I also don't own an iPhone, so I've never tested
                            > > whether my videos, which are all at this point in the progression of
                            > > my feed are 640w or wider, play on the iPhone at all.
                            > >
                            > > Then again, it's not like I have a large audience or any requirement
                            > > to make videos that people with 800 mHz iMacs can watch. For
                            > > instance, I encode my flash around 1400 kbps, which is a strain on
                            > > older systems.
                            > >
                            > > I'll be interested to find out if my videos DON'T play on iPhones,
                            > > because I'm *still* not going to make lower-resolution videos. :D
                            > >
                            > > Bill Cammack
                            > > http://BillCammack.com
                            > >
                            > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Watkins" <steve@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Yeah I found that link too, its a bit dated so not sure if its still
                            > > true.
                            > > >
                            > > > Certainly I think 3rd party encoders found a way to make their stuff
                            > > compatible.
                            > > >
                            > > > And as all these issues cause brain melt, my conclusion in the past
                            > > was to use 3rd party
                            > > > encoders if I wanted precise control & ipod compatibility.
                            > > >
                            > > > And as a further complication, are people catering much for iphone &
                            > > ipod touch? Because
                            > > > the max res for those seems to be 480x360.
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers
                            > > >
                            > > > Steve Elbows
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com
                            > writes:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            <http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html>
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "Baseline Low-Complexity" is something they made up. It
                            basically
                            > > > > means "Baseline with 1 reference frame".
                            > > > >
                            > > > > After a weekend of trial, error, hex reading, and headaches, I
                            > > > > learned the following:
                            > > > > Apple is using special tags to prevent iTunes from accepting 3rd-
                            > > > > party-created .mp4 files.
                            > > > > This seems to be similar to the PSP limitations....
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                            > > > > > >The specs are on the Apple site:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                            > > frames per
                            > > > > > >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline
                            Profile with
                            > > > > > >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v,
                            > .mp4, and
                            > > > > > >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480
                            > > pixels, 30
                            > > > > > >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC
                            > > audio
                            > > > > > >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov
                            file
                            > > > > > >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                            > frames
                            > > > > > >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps,
                            > 48kHz,
                            > > > > > >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put video with
                            > > these
                            > > > > > >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm
                            > using
                            > > > > > >right now.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >Bill
                            > > > > > >http://BillCammack.com
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it
                            mention
                            > > > > 'Low complexity'
                            > > > > > and on
                            http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                            > > > > specifically says
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile
                            has been
                            > > > > defined by Apple for the iPod "
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                            > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                            > > > > > which, in turn, says:
                            > > > > > "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile,
                            > > > > Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and
                            > bitrates
                            > > > > up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video
                            > content."
                            > > > > with a ref to
                            > > > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which
                            is pr
                            > > > > fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't mention
                            > > > > classic or LC at all.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets
                            > is max
                            > > > > stored frames)
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > level 1.3 = 352x288@ (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                            > > > > > level 2.1 = 352x480@ (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                            > > > > > level 3 = 720x480@ (6) @ 10 Mbit/s
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little
                            > > far-fetched.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264
                            option
                            > > > > in QTPro can be used to
                            > > > > > create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity'
                            > option.
                            > > > > Maybe low is relative in this aspect?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Joly
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > > > WWWhatsup NYC
                            > > > > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                            > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Bill Cammack
                            ... Actually, it may also be a case of a checkbox that somehow became un-checked in Visualhub. :) Visualhub makes mp4s that are encoded in h.264, so the
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ... Actually, it may also be a case of a checkbox that somehow became
                              un-checked in Visualhub. :) Visualhub makes mp4s that are encoded in
                              h.264, so the extension is actually mp4. I may very well have created
                              video versions with h.264 unchecked, which might be another reason,
                              besides using different programs, that my files were different.


                              --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Watkins" <steve@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > OK I tried on the ipod touch, which should give same results as
                              iphone.
                              > >
                              > > I tried your last 2 videos. Both of them transfered to the ipod touch
                              > > via itunes, and played fine. One was a 640x480 h264 and the other was
                              > > a 700x400 mpeg4.
                              >
                              > Thanks for checking that out, Steve. :)
                              >
                              > > So I guess the iphone spec is what they recommend, as opposed to the
                              > > limits of what it will play. Which is a relief as I dont see many
                              > > people going for 480x res.
                              >
                              > Yeah. I don't know why it's like that. The way I saw it, if it
                              > played on a Nano @ 720x400, there's no reason it shouldn't play on an
                              > iPhone, etc... but not having one, I couldn't say for sure.
                              >
                              > > But now Im curious as to how come the latest video was mpeg4 rather
                              > > than h264?
                              >
                              > The h.264 video was of Gary Vaynerchuk, which I shot from my still
                              > camera and brought into FCP. I made that video directly from FCP.
                              >
                              > The mp4, which is my normal format, was shot and edited in HD. I used
                              > visualhub to make my versions, which creates mp4 files.
                              >
                              > Because I made the Gary video from a 640x480 source instead of a
                              > 1440x1080 hdv source, there was no reason for me to output a 'master'
                              > file and then make versions with visualhub.
                              >
                              >
                              > Bill Cammack
                              > http://BillCammack.com
                              >
                              > > Cheers
                              > >
                              > > Steve Elbows
                              > >
                              > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack" <billcammack@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I don't make anything < 640w. My Vlog Deathmatch official entry
                              video
                              > > > is the only one I can remember making 480w.
                              > > >
                              > > > I tend to be "elitist" when I make videos. As long as I can get it
                              > > > from my iTunes feed and it plays in my Nano, I'm good with it. :)
                              > > > That doesn't mean it's backwards compatible with other iPods. I've
                              > > > never tested that. I also don't own an iPhone, so I've never tested
                              > > > whether my videos, which are all at this point in the progression of
                              > > > my feed are 640w or wider, play on the iPhone at all.
                              > > >
                              > > > Then again, it's not like I have a large audience or any requirement
                              > > > to make videos that people with 800 mHz iMacs can watch. For
                              > > > instance, I encode my flash around 1400 kbps, which is a strain on
                              > > > older systems.
                              > > >
                              > > > I'll be interested to find out if my videos DON'T play on iPhones,
                              > > > because I'm *still* not going to make lower-resolution videos. :D
                              > > >
                              > > > Bill Cammack
                              > > > http://BillCammack.com
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Watkins" <steve@>
                              wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yeah I found that link too, its a bit dated so not sure if its
                              still
                              > > > true.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Certainly I think 3rd party encoders found a way to make their
                              stuff
                              > > > compatible.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > And as all these issues cause brain melt, my conclusion in the
                              past
                              > > > was to use 3rd party
                              > > > > encoders if I wanted precise control & ipod compatibility.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > And as a further complication, are people catering much for
                              iphone &
                              > > > ipod touch? Because
                              > > > > the max res for those seems to be 480x360.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Cheers
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Steve Elbows
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Cammack"
                              <billcammack@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Try this page, where Tyler Loch of http://www.techspansion.com
                              > > writes:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              <http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html>
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "Baseline Low-Complexity" is something they made up. It
                              > basically
                              > > > > > means "Baseline with 1 reference frame".
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > After a weekend of trial, error, hex reading, and headaches, I
                              > > > > > learned the following:
                              > > > > > Apple is using special tags to prevent iTunes from accepting
                              3rd-
                              > > > > > party-created .mp4 files.
                              > > > > > This seems to be similar to the PSP limitations....
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, WWWhatsup <joly@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > At 16:26 2008-04-04, you wrote:
                              > > > > > > >The specs are on the Apple site:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ><http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html>
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >"Video: H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                              > > > frames per
                              > > > > > > >second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline
                              > Profile with
                              > > > > > > >AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v,
                              > > .mp4, and
                              > > > > > > >.mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480
                              > > > pixels, 30
                              > > > > > > >frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with
                              AAC-LC
                              > > > audio
                              > > > > > > >up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov
                              > file
                              > > > > > > >formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30
                              > > frames
                              > > > > > > >per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps,
                              > > 48kHz,
                              > > > > > > >stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats"
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >So I don't have experience with old iPods. I've put
                              video with
                              > > > these
                              > > > > > > >data rates on 5th Gen iPods and also the iPod Nano which I'm
                              > > using
                              > > > > > > >right now.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >If you want some examples, you can try my iTunes feed.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >Bill
                              > > > > > > >http://BillCammack.com
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Well I knew that, but nowhere in QT Pro's options does it
                              > mention
                              > > > > > 'Low complexity'
                              > > > > > > and on
                              > http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2007/tn2188.html it
                              > > > > > specifically says
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > "The Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile
                              > has been
                              > > > > > defined by Apple for the iPod "
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > which would suggest that it is not standard vanilla baseline.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > That page refers one to wikipedia for more info:
                              > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles
                              > > > > > > which, in turn, says:
                              > > > > > > "Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch support H.264 Baseline Profile,
                              > > > > > Levels 2.1 and 3, at resolutions up to 480x320 or 640x480 and
                              > > bitrates
                              > > > > > up to 1.5 Mbit/s and is capable of playing the YouTube video
                              > > content."
                              > > > > > with a ref to
                              > > > > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html which
                              > is pr
                              > > > > > fluff and doesn't say anything that specific, and doesn't
                              mention
                              > > > > > classic or LC at all.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I do see in the handy table provided that (number in brackets
                              > > is max
                              > > > > > stored frames)
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > level 1.3 = 352x288@ (6) @ 768 kbit/s
                              > > > > > > level 2.1 = 352x480@ (7) @ 4 Mbit/s
                              > > > > > > level 3 = 720x480@ (6) @ 10 Mbit/s
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > which would lead me to believe that that claim is a little
                              > > > far-fetched.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > It appears a little odd that one can use the straight h.264
                              > option
                              > > > > > in QTPro can be used to
                              > > > > > > create smaller baseline files than the ipod 'low complexity'
                              > > option.
                              > > > > > Maybe low is relative in this aspect?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Why don't apple explain things more clearly I wonder
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Joly
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              ---------------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > > > > WWWhatsup NYC
                              > > > > > > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com
                              > > > > > >
                              ---------------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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