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Best Practices for Media Aggregators & Pixelodeon

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  • Roxanne Darling
    Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/ We ll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The goal is to finalize version 1
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 5, 2007
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      Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
      http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/

      We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
      goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
      begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
      audio and video content.

      In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
      this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
      and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.

      Please look at the draft here:
      http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/

      We have also had our programmer create an online database with
      submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
      our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
      signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
      this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
      bring to bear in the marketplace.

      I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
      so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
      limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
      person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
      comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
      follow me on Twitter:
      http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

      Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
      directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
      designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
      been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
      hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.

      We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
      people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
      Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
      about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
      collective influence to bear out there.

      Aloha,
      Rox

      --
      Roxanne Darling
      "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
      808-384-5554
      http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

      http://www.beachwalks.tv
      http://www.barefeetshop.com
      http://www.barefeetstudios.com
    • pepa
      dear roxanne, as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will translate it to spanish. and the submission form could also be available in
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 5, 2007
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        dear roxanne,
        as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
        translate it to spanish.
        and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
        languages); don't you think so?
        this is an exciting initiative.
        besos.


        On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
        > http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
        >
        > We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
        > goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
        > begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
        > audio and video content.
        >
        > In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
        > this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
        > and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
        >
        > Please look at the draft here:
        > http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
        >
        > We have also had our programmer create an online database with
        > submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
        > our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
        > signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
        > this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
        > bring to bear in the marketplace.
        >
        > I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
        > so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
        > limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
        > person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
        > comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
        > follow me on Twitter:
        > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
        >
        > Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
        > directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
        > designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
        > been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
        > hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
        >
        > We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
        > people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
        > Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
        > about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
        > collective influence to bear out there.
        >
        > Aloha,
        > Rox
        >
        > --
        > Roxanne Darling
        > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
        > 808-384-5554
        > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
        >
        > http://www.beachwalks.tv
        > http://www.barefeetshop.com
        > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
        >
        >



        --
        http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Roxanne Darling
        chicken skin! i love your ideas pepa and thank you for the offer. let s do it. aloha, rox ... -- Roxanne Darling o ke kai means of the sea in hawaiian
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 5, 2007
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          chicken skin! i love your ideas pepa and thank you for the offer. let's do it.

          aloha,
          rox

          On 6/5/07, pepa <puritito.tomate@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > dear roxanne,
          > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
          > translate it to spanish.
          > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
          > languages); don't you think so?
          > this is an exciting initiative.
          > besos.
          >
          >
          > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
          > > http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
          > >
          > > We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
          > > goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
          > > begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
          > > audio and video content.
          > >
          > > In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
          > > this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
          > > and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
          > >
          > > Please look at the draft here:
          > > http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
          > >
          > > We have also had our programmer create an online database with
          > > submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
          > > our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
          > > signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
          > > this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
          > > bring to bear in the marketplace.
          > >
          > > I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
          > > so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
          > > limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
          > > person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
          > > comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
          > > follow me on Twitter:
          > > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
          > >
          > > Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
          > > directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
          > > designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
          > > been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
          > > hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
          > >
          > > We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
          > > people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
          > > Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
          > > about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
          > > collective influence to bear out there.
          > >
          > > Aloha,
          > > Rox
          > >
          > > --
          > > Roxanne Darling
          > > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
          > > 808-384-5554
          > > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
          > >
          > > http://www.beachwalks.tv
          > > http://www.barefeetshop.com
          > > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Roxanne Darling
          "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
          808-384-5554
          http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

          http://www.beachwalks.tv
          http://www.barefeetshop.com
          http://www.barefeetstudios.com
        • Lisa Rein
          Hey Roxanne, (OT - Hey nice to meet you. I had a great time learning about using my neutral energy forces on your show a few weeks ago, and it is a really
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hey Roxanne,

            (OT - Hey nice to meet you. I had a great time learning about using my
            neutral energy forces on your show a few weeks ago, and it is a really
            useful tool that has enriched my life greatly, thanks.)

            OK

            RE: http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/

            Hey this doc looks like a great start -- but could use re-org and a few
            explanatory sections - in terms of having a summary, lists, etc., to make
            the spec a little easier to read and understand.

            Also, I think it's very important to consider this more of a "wish list,"
            in the short term, for content owners and aggregators alike (albeit a good
            starting point for a "score card" of sorts in the future.)

            My point being that, to be fair, many of these "best practices" are
            actually very complex features that could literally take months or years
            to implement correctly.

            I'm not that worried about Mefeedia -- we seemed to have a good "score"
            when I went through the little checklist, for the most part, so I am
            pleased...

            But it was a little confusing going through the checklist, the way it was
            formatted...

            so I would be happy to offer my services as spec editor (for a little
            clean up now, and while making updates in the future) -- so we can add a
            summary, resources, links to working examples, etc., to make this a nice,
            professinal looking spec that will have to be taken seriously by
            businesses and can hopefully become a real pseudo facto standard for years
            to come.

            (I'm a w3c spec wonk from years back, if that explains why I would
            volunteer for such an arduous task. i'm sick. i actually like writing
            specs :-)

            When we have those specific details and a clear guidelines for
            implementation in place, I believe more companies and vloggers will feel
            better about signing on to support it too.

            Thanks!

            lisa

            http://www.mefeedia.com/blog

            > dear roxanne,
            > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
            > translate it to spanish.
            > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
            > languages); don't you think so?
            > this is an exciting initiative.
            > besos.
            >
            >
            > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
            >> http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
            >>
            >> We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
            >> goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
            >> begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
            >> audio and video content.
            >>
            >> In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
            >> this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
            >> and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
            >>
            >> Please look at the draft here:
            >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
            >>
            >> We have also had our programmer create an online database with
            >> submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
            >> our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
            >> signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
            >> this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
            >> bring to bear in the marketplace.
            >>
            >> I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
            >> so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
            >> limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
            >> person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
            >> comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
            >> follow me on Twitter:
            >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
            >>
            >> Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
            >> directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
            >> designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
            >> been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
            >> hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
            >>
            >> We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
            >> people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
            >> Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
            >> about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
            >> collective influence to bear out there.
            >>
            >> Aloha,
            >> Rox
            >>
            >> --
            >> Roxanne Darling
            >> "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
            >> 808-384-5554
            >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
            >>
            >> http://www.beachwalks.tv
            >> http://www.barefeetshop.com
            >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            Lisa Rein

            http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
            http://onlisareinsradar.com
            http://www.mefeedia.com
            http://www.lisarein.com
          • Roxanne Darling
            Lisa, I ve added comments inline below. Thank you for your thoughtful comments! Aloha, Rox ... ... I very much appreciate your feedback. FWIW, the html
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 5, 2007
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              Lisa,

              I've added comments inline below. Thank you for your thoughtful comments!

              Aloha, Rox

              On 6/5/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:

              >
              > Hey Roxanne,
              >
              <snip>

              > OK
              >
              > RE: http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
              >
              > Hey this doc looks like a great start -- but could use re-org and a few
              > explanatory sections - in terms of having a summary, lists, etc., to make
              > the spec a little easier to read and understand.

              I very much appreciate your feedback. FWIW, the html on that page came
              straight from MS Word - nuf said! The PDF reads a little easier, and
              yes, there is plenty of room for improvement. Let's see what kind of
              feedback comes in here over the next 24-48 hours, then I would love to
              let you place your loving hands on it so we have an improved version
              for Pixelodeon discussion.


              > Also, I think it's very important to consider this more of a "wish list,"
              > in the short term, for content owners and aggregators alike (albeit a good
              > starting point for a "score card" of sorts in the future.)

              > My point being that, to be fair, many of these "best practices" are
              > actually very complex features that could literally take months or years
              > to implement correctly.

              I'd like the group to debate this; many feel that there are ample RSS
              standards in place to accommodate most of what we have proposed.
              Techies?? Please weigh in on this.


              > I'm not that worried about Mefeedia -- we seemed to have a good "score"
              > when I went through the little checklist, for the most part, so I am
              > pleased...

              Congrats.. :-)
              The idea of a point system has been in the back of my mind too. IMO
              that would require considerably more work (and agreement) plus a
              fair-minded panel to rate each aggregator. I think it's a great plan
              for version 2, if we can get v1 into motion. I also envision creating
              a master list of aggregators with some sort of indication of
              pass-fail, so we are on the same page with this idea.

              I don't expect anyone to "score" perfect; the idea is to move
              performance standards forward into tangible form. And the caveats are
              really meant to both provide wiggle room and cover the nuance of a
              particular service. For example, a lot of people host at blip. Blip
              shares movie-based ad revenue but not the display ad revenue that
              wraps media on the page. (I am pretty sure I am accurate on that.)
              OTOH, they host (not just aggregate) our media and provide so many
              value-adds. They also qualify as having a "direct relationship" with
              the CO, which also means anything is negotiable.

              > But it was a little confusing going through the checklist, the way it was
              > formatted...
              >
              > so I would be happy to offer my services as spec editor (for a little
              > clean up now, and while making updates in the future) -- so we can add a
              > summary, resources, links to working examples, etc., to make this a nice,
              > professinal looking spec that will have to be taken seriously by
              > businesses and can hopefully become a real pseudo facto standard for years
              > to come.
              >
              > (I'm a w3c spec wonk from years back, if that explains why I would
              > volunteer for such an arduous task. i'm sick. i actually like writing
              > specs :-)

              You're on! I'll send you raw files off list tomorrow and look forward
              to your mastery Lisa.


              > When we have those specific details and a clear guidelines for
              > implementation in place, I believe more companies and vloggers will feel
              > better about signing on to support it too.

              Agreed.


              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              > lisa
              >
              > http://www.mefeedia.com/blog
              >
              >
              > > dear roxanne,
              > > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
              > > translate it to spanish.
              > > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
              > > languages); don't you think so?
              > > this is an exciting initiative.
              > > besos.
              > >
              > >
              > > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
              > >> http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
              > >>
              > >> We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
              > >> goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
              > >> begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
              > >> audio and video content.
              > >>
              > >> In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
              > >> this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
              > >> and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
              > >>
              > >> Please look at the draft here:
              > >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
              > >>
              > >> We have also had our programmer create an online database with
              > >> submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
              > >> our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
              > >> signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
              > >> this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
              > >> bring to bear in the marketplace.
              > >>
              > >> I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
              > >> so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
              > >> limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
              > >> person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
              > >> comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
              > >> follow me on Twitter:
              > >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
              > >>
              > >> Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
              > >> directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
              > >> designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
              > >> been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
              > >> hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
              > >>
              > >> We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
              > >> people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
              > >> Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
              > >> about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
              > >> collective influence to bear out there.
              > >>
              > >> Aloha,
              > >> Rox
              > >>
              > >> --
              > >> Roxanne Darling
              > >> "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
              > >> 808-384-5554
              > >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
              > >>
              > >> http://www.beachwalks.tv
              > >> http://www.barefeetshop.com
              > >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              > Lisa Rein
              >
              > http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
              > http://onlisareinsradar.com
              > http://www.mefeedia.com
              > http://www.lisarein.com
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Roxanne Darling
              "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
              808-384-5554
              http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

              http://www.beachwalks.tv
              http://www.barefeetshop.com
              http://www.barefeetstudios.com
            • Charles Iliya Krempeaux
              Hello Roxanne, In the case of... V. Second Priority Best Practices [...] 2. MA enables CO to opt-out of being listed on MA s site. ... if the feed in one
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Roxanne,

                In the case of...

                V. Second Priority Best Practices
                [...]
                2. MA enables CO to opt-out of being listed on MA's site.

                ... if the feed in one your own domain, then wouldn't the robots.txt
                file be sufficient for this?

                It's the defacto standard for asking software not to
                access/crawl/whatever, certain parts of your site.


                See ya

                --
                Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                All the Vlogging News on One Page
                http://vlograzor.com/

                On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                >
                > Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
                > http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
                >
                > We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
                > goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
                > begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
                > audio and video content.
                >
                > In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
                > this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
                > and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
                >
                > Please look at the draft here:
                > http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                >
                > We have also had our programmer create an online database with
                > submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
                > our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
                > signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
                > this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
                > bring to bear in the marketplace.
                >
                > I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
                > so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
                > limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
                > person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
                > comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
                > follow me on Twitter:
                > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                >
                > Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
                > directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
                > designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
                > been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
                > hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
                >
                > We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
                > people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
                > Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
                > about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
                > collective influence to bear out there.
                >
                > Aloha,
                > Rox
                >
                > --
                > Roxanne Darling
                > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                > 808-384-5554
                > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                >
                > http://www.beachwalks.tv
                > http://www.barefeetshop.com
                > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
              • Lisa Rein
                sounds good roxanne :-) btw - I wasn t suggesting a point system at all (um. ick :) -- just a checklist. and really, just a little reformatting, with some
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
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                  sounds good roxanne :-)


                  btw - I wasn't suggesting a point system at all (um. ick :)
                  -- just a checklist.

                  and really, just a little reformatting, with some links to appropriate
                  docs, as a starting point.

                  after the pixelodeon frenzy, perhaps we can write up a summary and provide
                  some use cases.

                  peace,

                  lisa




                  > Lisa,
                  >
                  > I've added comments inline below. Thank you for your thoughtful comments!
                  >
                  > Aloha, Rox
                  >
                  > On 6/5/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >> Hey Roxanne,
                  >>
                  > <snip>
                  >
                  >> OK
                  >>
                  >> RE: http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                  >>
                  >> Hey this doc looks like a great start -- but could use re-org and a few
                  >> explanatory sections - in terms of having a summary, lists, etc., to
                  >> make
                  >> the spec a little easier to read and understand.
                  >
                  > I very much appreciate your feedback. FWIW, the html on that page came
                  > straight from MS Word - nuf said! The PDF reads a little easier, and
                  > yes, there is plenty of room for improvement. Let's see what kind of
                  > feedback comes in here over the next 24-48 hours, then I would love to
                  > let you place your loving hands on it so we have an improved version
                  > for Pixelodeon discussion.
                  >
                  >
                  >> Also, I think it's very important to consider this more of a "wish
                  >> list,"
                  >> in the short term, for content owners and aggregators alike (albeit a
                  >> good
                  >> starting point for a "score card" of sorts in the future.)
                  >
                  >> My point being that, to be fair, many of these "best practices" are
                  >> actually very complex features that could literally take months or
                  >> years
                  >> to implement correctly.
                  >
                  > I'd like the group to debate this; many feel that there are ample RSS
                  > standards in place to accommodate most of what we have proposed.
                  > Techies?? Please weigh in on this.
                  >
                  >
                  >> I'm not that worried about Mefeedia -- we seemed to have a good "score"
                  >> when I went through the little checklist, for the most part, so I am
                  >> pleased...
                  >
                  > Congrats.. :-)
                  > The idea of a point system has been in the back of my mind too. IMO
                  > that would require considerably more work (and agreement) plus a
                  > fair-minded panel to rate each aggregator. I think it's a great plan
                  > for version 2, if we can get v1 into motion. I also envision creating
                  > a master list of aggregators with some sort of indication of
                  > pass-fail, so we are on the same page with this idea.
                  >
                  > I don't expect anyone to "score" perfect; the idea is to move
                  > performance standards forward into tangible form. And the caveats are
                  > really meant to both provide wiggle room and cover the nuance of a
                  > particular service. For example, a lot of people host at blip. Blip
                  > shares movie-based ad revenue but not the display ad revenue that
                  > wraps media on the page. (I am pretty sure I am accurate on that.)
                  > OTOH, they host (not just aggregate) our media and provide so many
                  > value-adds. They also qualify as having a "direct relationship" with
                  > the CO, which also means anything is negotiable.
                  >
                  >> But it was a little confusing going through the checklist, the way it
                  >> was
                  >> formatted...
                  >>
                  >> so I would be happy to offer my services as spec editor (for a little
                  >> clean up now, and while making updates in the future) -- so we can add
                  >> a
                  >> summary, resources, links to working examples, etc., to make this a
                  >> nice,
                  >> professinal looking spec that will have to be taken seriously by
                  >> businesses and can hopefully become a real pseudo facto standard for
                  >> years
                  >> to come.
                  >>
                  >> (I'm a w3c spec wonk from years back, if that explains why I would
                  >> volunteer for such an arduous task. i'm sick. i actually like writing
                  >> specs :-)
                  >
                  > You're on! I'll send you raw files off list tomorrow and look forward
                  > to your mastery Lisa.
                  >
                  >
                  >> When we have those specific details and a clear guidelines for
                  >> implementation in place, I believe more companies and vloggers will
                  >> feel
                  >> better about signing on to support it too.
                  >
                  > Agreed.
                  >
                  >
                  >>
                  >> Thanks!
                  >>
                  >> lisa
                  >>
                  >> http://www.mefeedia.com/blog
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> > dear roxanne,
                  >> > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
                  >> > translate it to spanish.
                  >> > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
                  >> > languages); don't you think so?
                  >> > this is an exciting initiative.
                  >> > besos.
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
                  >> >> http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
                  >> >>
                  >> >> We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
                  >> >> goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to
                  >> and
                  >> >> begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
                  >> >> audio and video content.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
                  >> >> this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
                  >> >> and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Please look at the draft here:
                  >> >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                  >> >>
                  >> >> We have also had our programmer create an online database with
                  >> >> submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all
                  >> add
                  >> >> our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all
                  >> the
                  >> >> signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have
                  >> backing
                  >> >> this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
                  >> >> bring to bear in the marketplace.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> I am working on options to live stream our discussion from
                  >> Pixelodeon
                  >> >> so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
                  >> >> limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up
                  >> a
                  >> >> person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
                  >> >> comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
                  >> >> follow me on Twitter:
                  >> >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
                  >> >> directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
                  >> >> designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip
                  >> has
                  >> >> been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
                  >> >> hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to
                  >> all
                  >> >> people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide
                  >> open.
                  >> >> Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
                  >> >> about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
                  >> >> collective influence to bear out there.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Aloha,
                  >> >> Rox
                  >> >>
                  >> >> --
                  >> >> Roxanne Darling
                  >> >> "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                  >> >> 808-384-5554
                  >> >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                  >> >>
                  >> >> http://www.beachwalks.tv
                  >> >> http://www.barefeetshop.com
                  >> >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                  >> >>
                  >> >>
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > --
                  >> > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >> Lisa Rein
                  >>
                  >> http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
                  >> http://onlisareinsradar.com
                  >> http://www.mefeedia.com
                  >> http://www.lisarein.com
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Roxanne Darling
                  > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                  > 808-384-5554
                  > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                  >
                  > http://www.beachwalks.tv
                  > http://www.barefeetshop.com
                  > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                  >


                  Lisa Rein

                  http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
                  http://onlisareinsradar.com
                  http://www.mefeedia.com
                  http://www.lisarein.com
                • Roxanne Darling
                  Charles, As I understand the robots.txt exclusion, you have to either specify the directory to stay out of, and that would keep all crawlers out (using the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Charles,
                    As I understand the robots.txt exclusion, you have to either specify
                    the directory to stay out of, and that would keep all crawlers out
                    (using the "disallow" instruction), or you have to specify the user
                    agent. I don't think most sites who syndicate an RSS feed are
                    classified or function as user agents - but I could be wrong on this.
                    In any case, I as the content owner would have to know about them, and
                    their specific name to exclude them. And writing and posting a
                    robots.txt file is not available to people who do not manage their
                    hosting or domains, as you indicated.

                    Lisa,
                    Thanks again! I had envisioned the first sentence of each of the
                    numbered priorities as a master list item, and the following sentences
                    as sub-items. I attempted to group related descriptors under a main
                    point, (which should have been bolded) to make it easy to scan at a
                    glance for main criteria followed by details.

                    r



                    On 6/6/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > sounds good roxanne :-)
                    >
                    > btw - I wasn't suggesting a point system at all (um. ick :)
                    > -- just a checklist.
                    >
                    > and really, just a little reformatting, with some links to appropriate
                    > docs, as a starting point.
                    >
                    > after the pixelodeon frenzy, perhaps we can write up a summary and provide
                    > some use cases.
                    >
                    > peace,
                    >
                    > lisa
                    >
                    >
                    > > Lisa,
                    > >
                    > > I've added comments inline below. Thank you for your thoughtful comments!
                    > >
                    > > Aloha, Rox
                    > >
                    > > On 6/5/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >>
                    > >> Hey Roxanne,
                    > >>
                    > > <snip>
                    > >
                    > >> OK
                    > >>
                    > >> RE: http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                    > >>
                    > >> Hey this doc looks like a great start -- but could use re-org and a few
                    > >> explanatory sections - in terms of having a summary, lists, etc., to
                    > >> make
                    > >> the spec a little easier to read and understand.
                    > >
                    > > I very much appreciate your feedback. FWIW, the html on that page came
                    > > straight from MS Word - nuf said! The PDF reads a little easier, and
                    > > yes, there is plenty of room for improvement. Let's see what kind of
                    > > feedback comes in here over the next 24-48 hours, then I would love to
                    > > let you place your loving hands on it so we have an improved version
                    > > for Pixelodeon discussion.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> Also, I think it's very important to consider this more of a "wish
                    > >> list,"
                    > >> in the short term, for content owners and aggregators alike (albeit a
                    > >> good
                    > >> starting point for a "score card" of sorts in the future.)
                    > >
                    > >> My point being that, to be fair, many of these "best practices" are
                    > >> actually very complex features that could literally take months or
                    > >> years
                    > >> to implement correctly.
                    > >
                    > > I'd like the group to debate this; many feel that there are ample RSS
                    > > standards in place to accommodate most of what we have proposed.
                    > > Techies?? Please weigh in on this.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> I'm not that worried about Mefeedia -- we seemed to have a good "score"
                    > >> when I went through the little checklist, for the most part, so I am
                    > >> pleased...
                    > >
                    > > Congrats.. :-)
                    > > The idea of a point system has been in the back of my mind too. IMO
                    > > that would require considerably more work (and agreement) plus a
                    > > fair-minded panel to rate each aggregator. I think it's a great plan
                    > > for version 2, if we can get v1 into motion. I also envision creating
                    > > a master list of aggregators with some sort of indication of
                    > > pass-fail, so we are on the same page with this idea.
                    > >
                    > > I don't expect anyone to "score" perfect; the idea is to move
                    > > performance standards forward into tangible form. And the caveats are
                    > > really meant to both provide wiggle room and cover the nuance of a
                    > > particular service. For example, a lot of people host at blip. Blip
                    > > shares movie-based ad revenue but not the display ad revenue that
                    > > wraps media on the page. (I am pretty sure I am accurate on that.)
                    > > OTOH, they host (not just aggregate) our media and provide so many
                    > > value-adds. They also qualify as having a "direct relationship" with
                    > > the CO, which also means anything is negotiable.
                    > >
                    > >> But it was a little confusing going through the checklist, the way it
                    > >> was
                    > >> formatted...
                    > >>
                    > >> so I would be happy to offer my services as spec editor (for a little
                    > >> clean up now, and while making updates in the future) -- so we can add
                    > >> a
                    > >> summary, resources, links to working examples, etc., to make this a
                    > >> nice,
                    > >> professinal looking spec that will have to be taken seriously by
                    > >> businesses and can hopefully become a real pseudo facto standard for
                    > >> years
                    > >> to come.
                    > >>
                    > >> (I'm a w3c spec wonk from years back, if that explains why I would
                    > >> volunteer for such an arduous task. i'm sick. i actually like writing
                    > >> specs :-)
                    > >
                    > > You're on! I'll send you raw files off list tomorrow and look forward
                    > > to your mastery Lisa.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> When we have those specific details and a clear guidelines for
                    > >> implementation in place, I believe more companies and vloggers will
                    > >> feel
                    > >> better about signing on to support it too.
                    > >
                    > > Agreed.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>
                    > >> Thanks!
                    > >>
                    > >> lisa
                    > >>
                    > >> http://www.mefeedia.com/blog
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> > dear roxanne,
                    > >> > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
                    > >> > translate it to spanish.
                    > >> > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
                    > >> > languages); don't you think so?
                    > >> > this is an exciting initiative.
                    > >> > besos.
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
                    > >> >> http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
                    > >> >> goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to
                    > >> and
                    > >> >> begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
                    > >> >> audio and video content.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
                    > >> >> this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
                    > >> >> and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Please look at the draft here:
                    > >> >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> We have also had our programmer create an online database with
                    > >> >> submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all
                    > >> add
                    > >> >> our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all
                    > >> the
                    > >> >> signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have
                    > >> backing
                    > >> >> this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
                    > >> >> bring to bear in the marketplace.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> I am working on options to live stream our discussion from
                    > >> Pixelodeon
                    > >> >> so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
                    > >> >> limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up
                    > >> a
                    > >> >> person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
                    > >> >> comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
                    > >> >> follow me on Twitter:
                    > >> >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
                    > >> >> directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
                    > >> >> designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip
                    > >> has
                    > >> >> been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
                    > >> >> hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to
                    > >> all
                    > >> >> people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide
                    > >> open.
                    > >> >> Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
                    > >> >> about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
                    > >> >> collective influence to bear out there.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Aloha,
                    > >> >> Rox
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> --
                    > >> >> Roxanne Darling
                    > >> >> "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                    > >> >> 808-384-5554
                    > >> >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> http://www.beachwalks.tv
                    > >> >> http://www.barefeetshop.com
                    > >> >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > --
                    > >> > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> Lisa Rein
                    > >>
                    > >> http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
                    > >> http://onlisareinsradar.com
                    > >> http://www.mefeedia.com
                    > >> http://www.lisarein.com
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Roxanne Darling
                    > > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                    > > 808-384-5554
                    > > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                    > >
                    > > http://www.beachwalks.tv
                    > > http://www.barefeetshop.com
                    > > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                    > >
                    >
                    > Lisa Rein
                    >
                    > http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
                    > http://onlisareinsradar.com
                    > http://www.mefeedia.com
                    > http://www.lisarein.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Roxanne Darling
                    "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                    808-384-5554
                    http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

                    http://www.beachwalks.tv
                    http://www.barefeetshop.com
                    http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                  • David Meade
                    ... Well you can disallow based on user-agent, and I think most spiders are identifiable in this way. The HUGE advantage to the content owner of using
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 6/6/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Charles,
                      > As I understand the robots.txt exclusion, you have to either specify
                      > the directory to stay out of, and that would keep all crawlers out
                      > (using the "disallow" instruction), or you have to specify the user
                      > agent. I don't think most sites who syndicate an RSS feed are
                      > classified or function as user agents - but I could be wrong on this.
                      > In any case, I as the content owner would have to know about them, and
                      > their specific name to exclude them. And writing and posting a
                      > robots.txt file is not available to people who do not manage their
                      > hosting or domains, as you indicated.
                      >

                      Well you can disallow based on user-agent, and I think most spiders are
                      identifiable in this way. The HUGE advantage to the content owner of using
                      robots.txt is that it allows us to maintain a pro-active opt-in or opt-out
                      rather than a reactive having to create an account at every aggregator that
                      ever comes into existence just to claim and then opt-out/in ... over and
                      over and over again ... each time a new aggregator comes online.

                      I think a better "requirement" for Aggregators might be "use a unique and
                      identifiable user-agent when crawling feeds, and honor robots.txt".

                      I'd rather have that 'requirement' made to the Aggregator than forcing a
                      requirement on Content producers to go and sign up at every single site to
                      opt-out. It's also easier for the aggregator. Win-win! :-)

                      Also ... its true that some folks might be using services that don't allow
                      them to alter their robots.txt ... however I really think this is a simple
                      feature we could convince Feedburner to implement in a very short amount of
                      time (restriction based on user-agent). Feedburner is very responsive to
                      this sort of thing and if we all asked for it on their forums I'm sure we'd
                      see some traction very quickly.

                      - Dave

                      --
                      http://www.DavidMeade.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Steve Watkins
                      This stuff is a brilliant effort, hats off to all concerned. Here are my initial thoughts upon reading the draft and this mini-discussion about robots.txt: Put
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        This stuff is a brilliant effort, hats off to all concerned.

                        Here are my initial thoughts upon reading the draft and this
                        mini-discussion about robots.txt:

                        Put some stuff in there about MA's taking reasonable steps to educate
                        themselves, and if necessary seek legal advice, about what alternative
                        licenses such as Creative Commons actually mean in detail.

                        Perhaps try to broaden the options for MAs a bit, at the moment I
                        think it will come across as a bit slanted to them. In practice this
                        means you could change it in ways such as mentioning:

                        MAs whose business model is incompatible with best practice, can still
                        play nice with CO's and get a good rating, by simply going down the
                        'contact the CO first and do a deal/get them to opt in'. If the CO is
                        opting in, anything is possible.

                        Again this works where the CO's standard license is incompatible with
                        the MA's service. The CO can grant additional rights to the MA, but
                        MA's cannot just assume they have these rights, they must contact the
                        CO and flesh out an agreement.


                        I have mixed feelings about the stuff about advertising revenue.
                        Perhaps it would help to clarify the extend of advertising we are
                        talking about, eg video adverts bolted onto the users content, lots of
                        commercial adverts and the MA being a commercial entity aiming to make
                        most of its money through advertising revenue, should certainly be
                        asked to share revenue, or at least contact CO before using their
                        stuff in such a context. Wheras a few google text ads in the corner of
                        a site thats a non-commercial mashup MA probably shouldnt be lead to
                        believe that all content creators want a cut of their meagre income?

                        This leads on to existing issues with what is classed as
                        'non-commercial' in creative commons licenses, certainly in my eyes
                        most MAs are commercial, even though plenty have tried to avoid this
                        issue or claim otherwise to date.

                        Theres another issue with creative commons rights, and thats
                        distribution. The guidelines are asking MA's not to rehost feeds or
                        the videos themselves, because that spoils the COs ability to gather
                        accurate stats. But one of the central tenets of Creative Commons
                        licenses is that they are giving people the right to redistribute
                        peoples stuff. Anybody who is currently using a creative commons
                        license, is giving me the right to rehost the videos theyve used the
                        cc license on. And you cant take away that right, indeed you have
                        signalled to me that I am allowed that right, so to try to take it
                        away again in another document, sends mixed messages.

                        Now Im not really sure how many CO's are aware of this, and Im always
                        ready to stand corrected if Ive got it wrong, lets talk about this
                        point if anybody disagree's.

                        Anyway assuming that point is correct, the 'solution' is again to
                        clarify that this only applies if all other conditions in the CC
                        license are met. Most of the MA's we'd seek to change behaviour of
                        with these guidelines, are commercial, and most of their uses of our
                        content is clearly for commercial advantage. So they dont get the
                        creative commons rights granted to them in the first place, so they
                        shouldnt assume they have the right to do anything other than what
                        standard copyright offers. So they should read the guidelines
                        carefully and under most circumstances contact the CO before using
                        their stuff.


                        Anyway sorry for waffling on, hopefully the above ideas could be
                        condensed into a single section that clarifies some basic CC stuff,
                        when the MA should play it safe and contact the CO, what assumptions
                        they should not make. Fits in with stuff explaining how RSS feeds &
                        assumed rights are usually intended for end users, viewers, not
                        commercial enterprises taking liberties.

                        In many cases of drawing up guidelines, it can be very beneficial to
                        get more input from the potential violators, industry, to get the
                        balance right and ensure that the guidelines are agreeable to at least
                        someone on the other side, or face the possibility that no MA's will
                        sign up at all. Hwever, apart from blip's commendable input, Im not
                        sure how many 'bad guys come good' out there will be willing to deal
                        with this stuff, I still believe that most do not want to share
                        revenue, and may recieve legal advice that tells them to stay away
                        from the issue, lest they end up learning exactly what creative
                        commons means, and concede too much ground to let their letcherous
                        buisiness strageties reap the profits they seek.

                        See I cant help thinking that too some of them, CO's are just bit to
                        be got for free. The CO's arent the creators of the product, that then
                        has 'value added' by the MA and is sold to the viewer. The viewer is
                        the product, which is sold to the advertiser, and the CO's work is
                        just the bait. Thats certainly one way to look at the traditional
                        model of television, the audience is sold to the advertiser. Big bucks
                        ensue, and sad games of trying to ensure the CO bait creator gets as
                        little of the money as possible.

                        As for the robots.txt thing, Im not in favour of those sorts of
                        technological measures. The bad guys can just ignore them, and
                        sometimes they could backfire and punish innocent end users who may
                        use some nonstandard client to watch feeds in future. I favour
                        education, giving bad guys less way to claim ignorance about content
                        licensing issues, and giving good guys the ability to judge our
                        intentions via existing technology such as license information being
                        contained within the RSS feed.

                        Cheers

                        Steve Elbows

                        --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "David Meade" <meade.dave@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > On 6/6/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Charles,
                        > > As I understand the robots.txt exclusion, you have to either specify
                        > > the directory to stay out of, and that would keep all crawlers out
                        > > (using the "disallow" instruction), or you have to specify the user
                        > > agent. I don't think most sites who syndicate an RSS feed are
                        > > classified or function as user agents - but I could be wrong on this.
                        > > In any case, I as the content owner would have to know about them, and
                        > > their specific name to exclude them. And writing and posting a
                        > > robots.txt file is not available to people who do not manage their
                        > > hosting or domains, as you indicated.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Well you can disallow based on user-agent, and I think most spiders are
                        > identifiable in this way. The HUGE advantage to the content owner
                        of using
                        > robots.txt is that it allows us to maintain a pro-active opt-in or
                        opt-out
                        > rather than a reactive having to create an account at every
                        aggregator that
                        > ever comes into existence just to claim and then opt-out/in ... over and
                        > over and over again ... each time a new aggregator comes online.
                        >
                        > I think a better "requirement" for Aggregators might be "use a
                        unique and
                        > identifiable user-agent when crawling feeds, and honor robots.txt".
                        >
                        > I'd rather have that 'requirement' made to the Aggregator than forcing a
                        > requirement on Content producers to go and sign up at every single
                        site to
                        > opt-out. It's also easier for the aggregator. Win-win! :-)
                        >
                        > Also ... its true that some folks might be using services that don't
                        allow
                        > them to alter their robots.txt ... however I really think this is a
                        simple
                        > feature we could convince Feedburner to implement in a very short
                        amount of
                        > time (restriction based on user-agent). Feedburner is very
                        responsive to
                        > this sort of thing and if we all asked for it on their forums I'm
                        sure we'd
                        > see some traction very quickly.
                        >
                        > - Dave
                        >
                        > --
                        > http://www.DavidMeade.com
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • David Meade
                        ... Well I think you may be mixing two issues. robots.txt isn t meant to enable Media Aggregators (MA) enforcement of licenses. It s meant to enable the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 6/6/07, Steve Watkins <steve@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > As for the robots.txt thing, Im not in favour of those sorts of
                          > technological measures. The bad guys can just ignore them, and
                          > sometimes they could backfire and punish innocent end users who may
                          > use some nonstandard client to watch feeds in future. I favour
                          > education, giving bad guys less way to claim ignorance about content
                          > licensing issues, and giving good guys the ability to judge our
                          > intentions via existing technology such as license information being
                          > contained within the RSS feed.
                          >
                          >
                          Well I think you may be mixing two issues. robots.txt isn't meant to enable
                          Media Aggregators (MA) enforcement of licenses. It's meant to enable the
                          Content Owners (CO) to exclude any given MA from accessing the feed. (an
                          opt-out action controlled by the CO rather than the MA)

                          robots.txt wouldn't exclude innocents as it would be configured only to
                          block specific bad actors.

                          Also robots.txt is an 'existing technology' ... I think it pre-dates RSS.
                          :-)

                          Should we (COs) have to be expected to go and register a user account at
                          each of these sites in order to opt-out? Besides being a PAIN IN THE @$$ ...
                          it artificially inflates their 'registered user' stats.

                          I'd much prefer not having to go and register an account over and over again
                          at every single 'bad-actor' site that ever comes into existence.

                          Sure 'bad actors' could ignore robots.txt ... but robots.txt has been around
                          a long time and is already a best practice for spiders/crawlers ... if they
                          are the type to ignore robots.txt they are likely the type to not care one
                          lick what our best practices document says anyway.

                          Remember ... these are things we would like to ask of MAs who want to do
                          right by the COs. I think it's fair to say "we'd like you to use a
                          recognizable user-agent when spidering our feeds".

                          Updating the user-agent is far far simpler for MAs than coding an opt-out
                          ... but accomplishes a way for COs to prevent their feed from being used by
                          that MA. (win for the MA) It also relieves the CO of having to register at
                          every single video site that ever comes into existence (win for the CO). It
                          also leverages existing technology best practices that the MAs (and most
                          COs) are already leveraging to some degree.
                          ...

                          All that being said ... yes MAs definitely need to understand licensing and
                          we should encourage their education. :-)


                          - Dave

                          --
                          http://www.DavidMeade.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Steve Watkins
                          You are right, I mangled 2 different issues. My point about it potentially hampering end-users was wrong because Robots.txt is easy to ignore. This also means
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You are right, I mangled 2 different issues.

                            My point about it potentially hampering end-users was wrong because
                            Robots.txt is easy to ignore. This also means I assume those bad
                            actors who dont care would never bother getting their stuff to look at
                            robots.txt in the first place. I completely agree that opt-out sucks
                            and people shouldnt be expected to have to do that, I just fear
                            robots.txt is too easily ignored and so doesnt really solve the problem.

                            What I was thinking of that would potentially harm end users with
                            unusual setups, would be attempts to do something equivalent to
                            robots, but that is actually real enforcement, real technological
                            measures that the outside party cannot ignore. Eg reconfiguring the
                            webserver to block access from certain addresses or those using
                            certain clients to read the feed.

                            So that stuff pushes me back towards technology that MAs can ignore,
                            but good ones will hopefully read. And I much prefer stuff in the RSS
                            feed than the robots idea. When I say its existing technology, I meant
                            its v.likely that these MA sites are already reading your feed. Wheras
                            its unlikely they read your robots.txt, because they arent generally
                            getting your content that way. And it requires additional reading of
                            external files, weheras most of the MA sites probably only ever
                            consume the feed file and nothing else.

                            I have been disappointed to date with how many companies bother to
                            read & do something with the creative commons or copyrigt license info
                            that can be put into RSS feeds. But the battle must be to improve
                            this, I think theres more chance of it than getting them to go to the
                            sites & read robots files, and which site should they go to anyway -
                            the site that hosts the blog or the site that hosts the video, if
                            different?

                            If its generally accepted that RSS feed metadata on licenses is the
                            way to get MAs to be able to automatically determine what rights they
                            are being given, there is also an argument that most of the scope of
                            the rules we want to set, are outside of Creative commons. Right now,
                            if most MAs read and acted on the CC ifno, it would tell them they
                            cant do much, cos they are commercial (as many people use the cc
                            non-commercial licenses). It seems like we need to be specifying what
                            we may allow commercial MAs to do with the videos. But how would this
                            be based, on the score different MAs get for sticking to the
                            guidelines or not in different areas? What if I want t specifically
                            include all MA's that have no adverts, but exclude all those that do?

                            Oh I dunno, I sure support the aims but when it comes down to this
                            sort of system, my brain ends up exploding and thinking of focussing
                            on general license education & the message that any commercial users
                            of videos should always contact the creators before doing anything
                            more than linking to the video.

                            Cheers

                            Steve Elbows

                            --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "David Meade" <meade.dave@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Well I think you may be mixing two issues. robots.txt isn't meant
                            to enable
                            > Media Aggregators (MA) enforcement of licenses. It's meant to
                            enable the
                            > Content Owners (CO) to exclude any given MA from accessing the feed. (an
                            > opt-out action controlled by the CO rather than the MA)
                            >
                            > robots.txt wouldn't exclude innocents as it would be configured only to
                            > block specific bad actors.
                            >
                            > Also robots.txt is an 'existing technology' ... I think it pre-dates
                            RSS.
                            > :-)
                            >
                            > Should we (COs) have to be expected to go and register a user account at
                            > each of these sites in order to opt-out? Besides being a PAIN IN THE
                            @$$ ...
                            > it artificially inflates their 'registered user' stats.
                            >
                            > I'd much prefer not having to go and register an account over and
                            over again
                            > at every single 'bad-actor' site that ever comes into existence.
                            >
                            > Sure 'bad actors' could ignore robots.txt ... but robots.txt has
                            been around
                            > a long time and is already a best practice for spiders/crawlers ...
                            if they
                            > are the type to ignore robots.txt they are likely the type to not
                            care one
                            > lick what our best practices document says anyway.
                            >
                            > Remember ... these are things we would like to ask of MAs who want to do
                            > right by the COs. I think it's fair to say "we'd like you to use a
                            > recognizable user-agent when spidering our feeds".
                            >
                            > Updating the user-agent is far far simpler for MAs than coding an
                            opt-out
                            > ... but accomplishes a way for COs to prevent their feed from being
                            used by
                            > that MA. (win for the MA) It also relieves the CO of having to
                            register at
                            > every single video site that ever comes into existence (win for the
                            CO). It
                            > also leverages existing technology best practices that the MAs (and most
                            > COs) are already leveraging to some degree.
                            > ...
                            >
                            > All that being said ... yes MAs definitely need to understand
                            licensing and
                            > we should encourage their education. :-)
                            >
                            >
                            > - Dave
                            >
                            > --
                            > http://www.DavidMeade.com
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • David Meade
                            ... True. It is easy to ignore ... but it s also easy to use and very commonly used already. If only MAs would identify themselves in the user-agent we
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 6/6/07, Steve Watkins <steve@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > My point about it potentially hampering end-users was wrong because
                              > Robots.txt is easy to ignore. This also means I assume those bad
                              > actors who dont care would never bother getting their stuff to look at
                              > robots.txt in the first place. I completely agree that opt-out sucks
                              > and people shouldnt be expected to have to do that, I just fear
                              > robots.txt is too easily ignored and so doesnt really solve the problem.


                              True. It is easy to ignore ... but it's also easy to use and very commonly
                              used already. If only MAs would identify themselves in the user-agent we
                              could use this as a CO-owned opt-out mechanism. We can basically ask for
                              them to do this, or ask for them to create a user-account based opt-out
                              feature on their site.

                              My instinct is that if our best practices document cant inspire an MA to
                              bother to identify themselves in their user-agent ... it isn't going to
                              inspire them to code up a whole user-opt-out feature. (setting your
                              user-agent is REALLY easy to do).

                              What I was thinking of that would potentially harm end users with
                              > unusual setups, would be attempts to do something equivalent to
                              > robots, but that is actually real enforcement, real technological
                              > measures that the outside party cannot ignore. Eg reconfiguring the
                              > webserver to block access from certain addresses or those using
                              > certain clients to read the feed.


                              Yeah we want to avoid that sort of thing naturally. I think (Rox?) that
                              this best practices document is a sort of "guidelines for parties that want
                              to get along". So yes I agree that we don't want to define some sort of
                              technical blocking or enforcement scheme ... but rather offer guidelines to
                              the parties that say "here's how we can best get along".

                              Asking MAs to "identify themselves in user-agents and respect robots.txt" is
                              merely asking them to abide by best practices that honestly have already
                              been in place. And I believe most feed spiders do have the functionality if
                              not the practice of honoring robots.txt.

                              To me it seems the mutually-least-painful option. For MAs it should be
                              REALLY easy to comply with and for COs it prevents us from having to use the
                              system we dislike in order to opt-out (each and every time another one comes
                              around).

                              So that stuff pushes me back towards technology that MAs can ignore,
                              > but good ones will hopefully read. And I much prefer stuff in the RSS
                              > feed than the robots idea.


                              Yeah, but again now we're getting into licensing rather than opt-out. I
                              agree that there should totally be an expectation to read and honor the
                              license information in the RSS feed. But site-based opt-out cant really
                              happen in the feed.

                              When I say its existing technology, I meant
                              > its v.likely that these MA sites are already reading your feed. Wheras
                              > its unlikely they read your robots.txt, because they arent generally
                              > getting your content that way.


                              Hmm. Are you sure? I thought most of them operated as a spider ... and most
                              of those now-a-days have robots.txt check out-of-the-box. In anycase it
                              would be very simple to implement.

                              I have been disappointed to date with how many companies bother to
                              > read & do something with the creative commons or copyrigt license info
                              > that can be put into RSS feeds. But the battle must be to improve
                              > this, I think theres more chance of it than getting them to go to the
                              > sites & read robots files, and which site should they go to anyway -
                              > the site that hosts the blog or the site that hosts the video, if
                              > different?


                              Yeah ... but I'm not sure the robots.txt file can really help in the "how do
                              we get people to respect our license" discussion .. thats different than
                              just "how can we ensure COs can opt-out" from any given site. (regardless as
                              to how good they are at license compliance).


                              --
                              http://www.DavidMeade.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Roxanne Darling
                              This is a great discussion although some of you can type wa-a-a-y better than I can which is why I use bullets and brevity. Please allow me to digest some of
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                This is a great discussion although some of you can type wa-a-a-y
                                better than I can which is why I use bullets and brevity. Please allow
                                me to digest some of this, and Lisa and I will figure out how to
                                condense it down.

                                Keep it coming! I hope we can basically get something out the door,
                                then let the marketplace chew on it, and then rest knowing we've done
                                what we can. As stated, we have no enforcement powers but we haven't
                                made it easy to have influence. That is my goal with this document.

                                I will take with me on the plane to work on, so please keep the comments coming!

                                Aloha, Rox


                                On 6/6/07, David Meade <meade.dave@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On 6/6/07, Steve Watkins <steve@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > My point about it potentially hampering end-users was wrong because
                                > > Robots.txt is easy to ignore. This also means I assume those bad
                                > > actors who dont care would never bother getting their stuff to look at
                                > > robots.txt in the first place. I completely agree that opt-out sucks
                                > > and people shouldnt be expected to have to do that, I just fear
                                > > robots.txt is too easily ignored and so doesnt really solve the problem.
                                >
                                > True. It is easy to ignore ... but it's also easy to use and very commonly
                                > used already. If only MAs would identify themselves in the user-agent we
                                > could use this as a CO-owned opt-out mechanism. We can basically ask for
                                > them to do this, or ask for them to create a user-account based opt-out
                                > feature on their site.
                                >
                                > My instinct is that if our best practices document cant inspire an MA to
                                > bother to identify themselves in their user-agent ... it isn't going to
                                > inspire them to code up a whole user-opt-out feature. (setting your
                                > user-agent is REALLY easy to do).
                                >
                                > What I was thinking of that would potentially harm end users with
                                > > unusual setups, would be attempts to do something equivalent to
                                > > robots, but that is actually real enforcement, real technological
                                > > measures that the outside party cannot ignore. Eg reconfiguring the
                                > > webserver to block access from certain addresses or those using
                                > > certain clients to read the feed.
                                >
                                > Yeah we want to avoid that sort of thing naturally. I think (Rox?) that
                                > this best practices document is a sort of "guidelines for parties that want
                                > to get along". So yes I agree that we don't want to define some sort of
                                > technical blocking or enforcement scheme ... but rather offer guidelines to
                                > the parties that say "here's how we can best get along".
                                >
                                > Asking MAs to "identify themselves in user-agents and respect robots.txt"
                                > is
                                > merely asking them to abide by best practices that honestly have already
                                > been in place. And I believe most feed spiders do have the functionality if
                                > not the practice of honoring robots.txt.
                                >
                                > To me it seems the mutually-least-painful option. For MAs it should be
                                > REALLY easy to comply with and for COs it prevents us from having to use
                                > the
                                > system we dislike in order to opt-out (each and every time another one
                                > comes
                                > around).
                                >
                                > So that stuff pushes me back towards technology that MAs can ignore,
                                > > but good ones will hopefully read. And I much prefer stuff in the RSS
                                > > feed than the robots idea.
                                >
                                > Yeah, but again now we're getting into licensing rather than opt-out. I
                                > agree that there should totally be an expectation to read and honor the
                                > license information in the RSS feed. But site-based opt-out cant really
                                > happen in the feed.
                                >
                                > When I say its existing technology, I meant
                                > > its v.likely that these MA sites are already reading your feed. Wheras
                                > > its unlikely they read your robots.txt, because they arent generally
                                > > getting your content that way.
                                >
                                > Hmm. Are you sure? I thought most of them operated as a spider ... and most
                                > of those now-a-days have robots.txt check out-of-the-box. In anycase it
                                > would be very simple to implement.
                                >
                                > I have been disappointed to date with how many companies bother to
                                > > read & do something with the creative commons or copyrigt license info
                                > > that can be put into RSS feeds. But the battle must be to improve
                                > > this, I think theres more chance of it than getting them to go to the
                                > > sites & read robots files, and which site should they go to anyway -
                                > > the site that hosts the blog or the site that hosts the video, if
                                > > different?
                                >
                                > Yeah ... but I'm not sure the robots.txt file can really help in the "how
                                > do
                                > we get people to respect our license" discussion .. thats different than
                                > just "how can we ensure COs can opt-out" from any given site. (regardless
                                > as
                                > to how good they are at license compliance).
                                >
                                > --
                                > http://www.DavidMeade.com
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >


                                --
                                Roxanne Darling
                                "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                808-384-5554
                                http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

                                http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                              • Mike Meiser
                                I can t wait for this session Roxanne. So glad I ll get to be there. i ve been talking about revlogging ettiquette issues as I ve called them from the very
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 6, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I can't wait for this session Roxanne. So glad I'll get to be there.

                                  i've been talking about "revlogging ettiquette" issues as I've called
                                  them from the very start of the vlogging space.

                                  For example:

                                  http://mmeiser.com/wiki/index.php/Mike%27s_guide_to_re-vlogging_ettiquette

                                  That's from about June 2005. Two whole years ago now. It's rough,
                                  but an early predicessor to both your guide and blips guide. I hope
                                  you find it useful.

                                  I could talk endlessly about web based disintermediation. I've got so
                                  many 'talking points" on the issue it isn't even funny.

                                  Personally, I think this is an "ettiquette issue" on some level. Like
                                  "email ettiquette" or "internet ettiquette", but to say that's all it
                                  is would be a disservice to us all.

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettiquette

                                  We cannot anticipate what innovations will happen tomorrow so no set
                                  of rules can be made lest we become like the traditional media
                                  industries and create a "permission based" culture where innovators
                                  have to ask permission to innovate... as is clearly happening with
                                  Slingbox, Tivo, the VCR, and so many innovations in that space.

                                  Since we don't know what miraculous technology will be made tomorrow
                                  we can only look at what's here today, Network 2.0, dabble, myheavy,
                                  Veoh, Democracy, iTunes and of course mefeedia and create best
                                  practices or guidelines that illustrate the most benificial practices,
                                  and in doing so we can encourage 3rd parties to serve our space
                                  (instead of just partnering with dominant players like youtube), and
                                  help them serve it well.

                                  Ultimately the success and vitality of the "open vlogosphere" depends
                                  on as many intremediaries and tools like digg podcasts, democracy,
                                  itunes, search, remixers, trackers as possible.

                                  It's not just "search" any more like when google started. It's tag
                                  tracking (technoratti tags), subscription management (bloglines.com),
                                  meme tracking (techememe.com), bubbling up (digg.com), conversation
                                  tracking (co.mments.com), platforms for sharing and collaboration
                                  (spinxpress), remixing, playlist creation (webjay), social discovery
                                  (last.fm) and millions of other possibilities.

                                  They litterally are litterally endless. What's more these services
                                  that serve THIS ecosystem... the open ecosystem... and not simply
                                  youtube or myspace or some other industry leader... these are what
                                  will call this space to grow.

                                  The bottom line is the "search space" is exploding. It's becoming
                                  more and more social, more human, and the key to vitality in our space
                                  is that these "roads" come to our front doors. (If I got anything
                                  from vloggercon 2006) it's that the biggest fears of videobloggers is
                                  that the roads will stop coming to their front door... that Apple TV
                                  or the next product from apple, or nokia... will simply cut a deal
                                  with youtube and cut RSS 2.0, open standards and hence all of US out
                                  of the mix.

                                  These services and these standards are vital to this space, because
                                  they are the roads, the sidwalks, the public spaces for interaction,
                                  and the interstate highways that keep the us connected not only to
                                  each other, but to our audiences and millions of people world wide.

                                  Anyway... so, I guess this is to say... this issue is my first love.
                                  Can't wait untill your session at Pixelodeon.


                                  BTW, about the robot.txt debate. Robot.txt is really cool and useful,
                                  but it was never meant to deal with RSS syndicated media.

                                  Ultimately I think the best tools we have are creative commons.
                                  Guidelines are guidelines, but it all comes down to the licenses with
                                  which we licensce our content.

                                  Not to in anyway downplay the importance of this debate and creating
                                  guidelines, but innovators don't often listen to "best practices" but
                                  everyone listens to the law. The success of everything from opensource
                                  to remix culture all stems from the legal foundations like the GNU/GPL
                                  (general public license) and Creative Commons licensces. This
                                  licensces are the foundations for these huge cultural collaborations.
                                  They create the space for it. Podcasting with all it's "podsafe
                                  music" could not exist without creative commons licenses. Without the
                                  creative commons to back it up, "podsafe" is just a hollow word.

                                  In fact we see this time and again with traditional industries like
                                  the music industry. It appears schizophrenic because they lack any
                                  aptitude and understanding for the new copy left world. One day
                                  they're shelling out big bucks for hip hop artists in Atlanta to
                                  include their mainstream artists in mix tapes, and the next the RIAA
                                  is leading a raid with the FBI to bust these same hip hop artists for
                                  the exact sort of promotional activity they've been paying them for.

                                  Why? Because the marketing people are saying "we love your mix
                                  tapes!" but there's no licensce, no copy left legal foundation to back
                                  it up.

                                  What we're talking about ultimately rests on top of these licenses.

                                  Our best practices must work with these licenses. They must work
                                  together. If you license your work Creative Commons Share-alike,
                                  commercial you can't tell an aggregator not to put ads on it. If on
                                  the other hand you mark it as non-commercial only (as most bloggers)
                                  then what is the right of any intermediary to put ads on it? I.E. if
                                  some ads appear on a search page that has your video in the results is
                                  that OK? What if someone makes a playlist on dabble, mefeedia or
                                  webjay that contains your video and that playlist has an advert on it?
                                  Every service has a right to profit? What are those rights?

                                  Anyway, that's why point one for revlogging and aggregators should
                                  always be "respect the licensce", but it also illustrates the
                                  problem... licenses don't and can't cover all the details.

                                  That said I hope blip.tv will talk about some of the things they're
                                  doing with RSS in this area. Partnerships between the webservices that
                                  support our guidlines are another great way to push our agenda. If the
                                  music labels can have their mafia (the RIAA) and the movie industry
                                  it's mafia (the MPAA) we can create our own posse. Unlike they... whom
                                  are I personally think bordering on violating the RICO organized crime
                                  act, our posse would by it's very nature be much less beuracratic, and
                                  less apt to be evil.

                                  And that is where best practives come in.

                                  Are you a member of the attention trust? http://www.attentiontrust.org/

                                  Whereas the GPL work by redefining the legal construct, such things as
                                  attention trust work above the law on a moral or ethical level.

                                  Among other things like licenses, better meta information (what blip
                                  is working on), and technical constructs like robots.txt what we need
                                  is a symbol. A badge of our comitment to policies. By putting it on
                                  all our vlogs and services we can not only show our comitment to the
                                  principals but also ADVERTISE them... so that new innovators will be
                                  encouraged to enter this space developing tools and services to keep
                                  the internet coming to your front door.

                                  So, there's more to talk about then I can put forth here.

                                  See you this weekend!

                                  :)

                                  -Mike
                                  mefeedia.com
                                  mmeiser.com/blog

                                  On 6/6/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                                  > This is a great discussion although some of you can type wa-a-a-y
                                  > better than I can which is why I use bullets and brevity. Please allow
                                  > me to digest some of this, and Lisa and I will figure out how to
                                  > condense it down.
                                  >
                                  > Keep it coming! I hope we can basically get something out the door,
                                  > then let the marketplace chew on it, and then rest knowing we've done
                                  > what we can. As stated, we have no enforcement powers but we haven't
                                  > made it easy to have influence. That is my goal with this document.
                                  >
                                  > I will take with me on the plane to work on, so please keep the comments coming!
                                  >
                                  > Aloha, Rox
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 6/6/07, David Meade <meade.dave@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On 6/6/07, Steve Watkins <steve@...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My point about it potentially hampering end-users was wrong because
                                  > > > Robots.txt is easy to ignore. This also means I assume those bad
                                  > > > actors who dont care would never bother getting their stuff to look at
                                  > > > robots.txt in the first place. I completely agree that opt-out sucks
                                  > > > and people shouldnt be expected to have to do that, I just fear
                                  > > > robots.txt is too easily ignored and so doesnt really solve the problem.
                                  > >
                                  > > True. It is easy to ignore ... but it's also easy to use and very commonly
                                  > > used already. If only MAs would identify themselves in the user-agent we
                                  > > could use this as a CO-owned opt-out mechanism. We can basically ask for
                                  > > them to do this, or ask for them to create a user-account based opt-out
                                  > > feature on their site.
                                  > >
                                  > > My instinct is that if our best practices document cant inspire an MA to
                                  > > bother to identify themselves in their user-agent ... it isn't going to
                                  > > inspire them to code up a whole user-opt-out feature. (setting your
                                  > > user-agent is REALLY easy to do).
                                  > >
                                  > > What I was thinking of that would potentially harm end users with
                                  > > > unusual setups, would be attempts to do something equivalent to
                                  > > > robots, but that is actually real enforcement, real technological
                                  > > > measures that the outside party cannot ignore. Eg reconfiguring the
                                  > > > webserver to block access from certain addresses or those using
                                  > > > certain clients to read the feed.
                                  > >
                                  > > Yeah we want to avoid that sort of thing naturally. I think (Rox?) that
                                  > > this best practices document is a sort of "guidelines for parties that want
                                  > > to get along". So yes I agree that we don't want to define some sort of
                                  > > technical blocking or enforcement scheme ... but rather offer guidelines to
                                  > > the parties that say "here's how we can best get along".
                                  > >
                                  > > Asking MAs to "identify themselves in user-agents and respect robots.txt"
                                  > > is
                                  > > merely asking them to abide by best practices that honestly have already
                                  > > been in place. And I believe most feed spiders do have the functionality if
                                  > > not the practice of honoring robots.txt.
                                  > >
                                  > > To me it seems the mutually-least-painful option. For MAs it should be
                                  > > REALLY easy to comply with and for COs it prevents us from having to use
                                  > > the
                                  > > system we dislike in order to opt-out (each and every time another one
                                  > > comes
                                  > > around).
                                  > >
                                  > > So that stuff pushes me back towards technology that MAs can ignore,
                                  > > > but good ones will hopefully read. And I much prefer stuff in the RSS
                                  > > > feed than the robots idea.
                                  > >
                                  > > Yeah, but again now we're getting into licensing rather than opt-out. I
                                  > > agree that there should totally be an expectation to read and honor the
                                  > > license information in the RSS feed. But site-based opt-out cant really
                                  > > happen in the feed.
                                  > >
                                  > > When I say its existing technology, I meant
                                  > > > its v.likely that these MA sites are already reading your feed. Wheras
                                  > > > its unlikely they read your robots.txt, because they arent generally
                                  > > > getting your content that way.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hmm. Are you sure? I thought most of them operated as a spider ... and most
                                  > > of those now-a-days have robots.txt check out-of-the-box. In anycase it
                                  > > would be very simple to implement.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have been disappointed to date with how many companies bother to
                                  > > > read & do something with the creative commons or copyrigt license info
                                  > > > that can be put into RSS feeds. But the battle must be to improve
                                  > > > this, I think theres more chance of it than getting them to go to the
                                  > > > sites & read robots files, and which site should they go to anyway -
                                  > > > the site that hosts the blog or the site that hosts the video, if
                                  > > > different?
                                  > >
                                  > > Yeah ... but I'm not sure the robots.txt file can really help in the "how
                                  > > do
                                  > > we get people to respect our license" discussion .. thats different than
                                  > > just "how can we ensure COs can opt-out" from any given site. (regardless
                                  > > as
                                  > > to how good they are at license compliance).
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > http://www.DavidMeade.com
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Roxanne Darling
                                  > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                  > 808-384-5554
                                  > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                                  >
                                  > http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                  > http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                  > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Roxanne Darling
                                  Hi Lisa, I am finally pulling things together...and have added in comments to the original doc from here and the talk I gave at Pixelodeon to create a little
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 30, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Lisa,

                                    I am finally pulling things together...and have added in comments to
                                    the original doc from here and the talk I gave at Pixelodeon to create
                                    a little site online. Someone is working on a "seal of approval"
                                    graphic and we've had one of our programmers build the form and
                                    database for people to sign on to the best practices.

                                    Are you still willing to take a look at the document itself? It is a
                                    little long, so we've used some Ajax to help focus on the different
                                    sections. But I think I've gotten too close to it and having your eyes
                                    on it would be helpful.

                                    http://www.itvguild.com/aggregation-best-practices.php
                                    http://www.itvguild.com/petition.php
                                    http://www.itvguild.com/signers.php

                                    The form is live so you can submit your data; we can clean it up
                                    before the site goes live so don't worry about testing it.

                                    http://www.itvguild.com/signers.php

                                    The site needs navigation and a home page message plus the seal so not
                                    to worry about that stuff.

                                    Thanks Lisa!

                                    Roxanne



                                    On 6/5/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hey Roxanne,
                                    >
                                    > (OT - Hey nice to meet you. I had a great time learning about using my
                                    > neutral energy forces on your show a few weeks ago, and it is a really
                                    > useful tool that has enriched my life greatly, thanks.)
                                    >
                                    > OK
                                    >
                                    > RE: http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                                    >
                                    > Hey this doc looks like a great start -- but could use re-org and a few
                                    > explanatory sections - in terms of having a summary, lists, etc., to make
                                    > the spec a little easier to read and understand.
                                    >
                                    > Also, I think it's very important to consider this more of a "wish list,"
                                    > in the short term, for content owners and aggregators alike (albeit a good
                                    > starting point for a "score card" of sorts in the future.)
                                    >
                                    > My point being that, to be fair, many of these "best practices" are
                                    > actually very complex features that could literally take months or years
                                    > to implement correctly.
                                    >
                                    > I'm not that worried about Mefeedia -- we seemed to have a good "score"
                                    > when I went through the little checklist, for the most part, so I am
                                    > pleased...
                                    >
                                    > But it was a little confusing going through the checklist, the way it was
                                    > formatted...
                                    >
                                    > so I would be happy to offer my services as spec editor (for a little
                                    > clean up now, and while making updates in the future) -- so we can add a
                                    > summary, resources, links to working examples, etc., to make this a nice,
                                    > professinal looking spec that will have to be taken seriously by
                                    > businesses and can hopefully become a real pseudo facto standard for years
                                    > to come.
                                    >
                                    > (I'm a w3c spec wonk from years back, if that explains why I would
                                    > volunteer for such an arduous task. i'm sick. i actually like writing
                                    > specs :-)
                                    >
                                    > When we have those specific details and a clear guidelines for
                                    > implementation in place, I believe more companies and vloggers will feel
                                    > better about signing on to support it too.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks!
                                    >
                                    > lisa
                                    >
                                    > http://www.mefeedia.com/blog
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > dear roxanne,
                                    > > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
                                    > > translate it to spanish.
                                    > > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
                                    > > languages); don't you think so?
                                    > > this is an exciting initiative.
                                    > > besos.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
                                    > >> http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
                                    > >>
                                    > >> We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
                                    > >> goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to and
                                    > >> begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
                                    > >> audio and video content.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
                                    > >> this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
                                    > >> and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Please look at the draft here:
                                    > >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                                    > >>
                                    > >> We have also had our programmer create an online database with
                                    > >> submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all add
                                    > >> our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all the
                                    > >> signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have backing
                                    > >> this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
                                    > >> bring to bear in the marketplace.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I am working on options to live stream our discussion from Pixelodeon
                                    > >> so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
                                    > >> limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up a
                                    > >> person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
                                    > >> comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
                                    > >> follow me on Twitter:
                                    > >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
                                    > >> directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
                                    > >> designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip has
                                    > >> been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
                                    > >> hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to all
                                    > >> people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide open.
                                    > >> Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
                                    > >> about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
                                    > >> collective influence to bear out there.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Aloha,
                                    > >> Rox
                                    > >>
                                    > >> --
                                    > >> Roxanne Darling
                                    > >> "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                    > >> 808-384-5554
                                    > >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                                    > >>
                                    > >> http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                    > >> http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                    > >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --
                                    > > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Lisa Rein
                                    >
                                    > http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
                                    > http://onlisareinsradar.com
                                    > http://www.mefeedia.com
                                    > http://www.lisarein.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    Roxanne Darling
                                    "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                    808-384-5554
                                    http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

                                    http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                    http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                    http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                                  • Lisa Rein
                                    Hi Roxanne, Sure, I m still down :-) Give me a day or two to fit it into my rotation. (ooh nice long weekend coming up too :) Should I post my
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 30, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Roxanne,

                                      Sure, I'm still down :-)

                                      Give me a day or two to fit it into my rotation. (ooh nice long weekend
                                      coming up too :)

                                      Should I post my comments/suggestions here?

                                      Or would you rather we worked on it offlist, and then posted an edited
                                      version?

                                      (The plus there is that the whole list doesn't have to bothered with
                                      editing/typos/etc. -- and we can save their attention for *real* policy
                                      decisions, etc. that might need to be made as a group :)

                                      But sometimes, in the interest of transparency, people like to see all the
                                      edits in a list. So I'm cool either way.

                                      ok thanks!

                                      lisa


                                      > Hi Lisa,
                                      >
                                      > I am finally pulling things together...and have added in comments to
                                      > the original doc from here and the talk I gave at Pixelodeon to create
                                      > a little site online. Someone is working on a "seal of approval"
                                      > graphic and we've had one of our programmers build the form and
                                      > database for people to sign on to the best practices.
                                      >
                                      > Are you still willing to take a look at the document itself? It is a
                                      > little long, so we've used some Ajax to help focus on the different
                                      > sections. But I think I've gotten too close to it and having your eyes
                                      > on it would be helpful.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.itvguild.com/aggregation-best-practices.php
                                      > http://www.itvguild.com/petition.php
                                      > http://www.itvguild.com/signers.php
                                      >
                                      > The form is live so you can submit your data; we can clean it up
                                      > before the site goes live so don't worry about testing it.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.itvguild.com/signers.php
                                      >
                                      > The site needs navigation and a home page message plus the seal so not
                                      > to worry about that stuff.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Lisa!
                                      >
                                      > Roxanne
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 6/5/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Hey Roxanne,
                                      >>
                                      >> (OT - Hey nice to meet you. I had a great time learning about using my
                                      >> neutral energy forces on your show a few weeks ago, and it is a really
                                      >> useful tool that has enriched my life greatly, thanks.)
                                      >>
                                      >> OK
                                      >>
                                      >> RE: http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                                      >>
                                      >> Hey this doc looks like a great start -- but could use re-org and a few
                                      >> explanatory sections - in terms of having a summary, lists, etc., to
                                      >> make
                                      >> the spec a little easier to read and understand.
                                      >>
                                      >> Also, I think it's very important to consider this more of a "wish
                                      >> list,"
                                      >> in the short term, for content owners and aggregators alike (albeit a
                                      >> good
                                      >> starting point for a "score card" of sorts in the future.)
                                      >>
                                      >> My point being that, to be fair, many of these "best practices" are
                                      >> actually very complex features that could literally take months or
                                      >> years
                                      >> to implement correctly.
                                      >>
                                      >> I'm not that worried about Mefeedia -- we seemed to have a good "score"
                                      >> when I went through the little checklist, for the most part, so I am
                                      >> pleased...
                                      >>
                                      >> But it was a little confusing going through the checklist, the way it
                                      >> was
                                      >> formatted...
                                      >>
                                      >> so I would be happy to offer my services as spec editor (for a little
                                      >> clean up now, and while making updates in the future) -- so we can add
                                      >> a
                                      >> summary, resources, links to working examples, etc., to make this a
                                      >> nice,
                                      >> professinal looking spec that will have to be taken seriously by
                                      >> businesses and can hopefully become a real pseudo facto standard for
                                      >> years
                                      >> to come.
                                      >>
                                      >> (I'm a w3c spec wonk from years back, if that explains why I would
                                      >> volunteer for such an arduous task. i'm sick. i actually like writing
                                      >> specs :-)
                                      >>
                                      >> When we have those specific details and a clear guidelines for
                                      >> implementation in place, I believe more companies and vloggers will
                                      >> feel
                                      >> better about signing on to support it too.
                                      >>
                                      >> Thanks!
                                      >>
                                      >> lisa
                                      >>
                                      >> http://www.mefeedia.com/blog
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> > dear roxanne,
                                      >> > as soon as you are done with the document, let us please know: i will
                                      >> > translate it to spanish.
                                      >> > and the submission form could also be available in spanish (and other
                                      >> > languages); don't you think so?
                                      >> > this is an exciting initiative.
                                      >> > besos.
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > On 6/5/07, Roxanne Darling <okekai@...> wrote:
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Sunday 1 pm at Pixelodeon
                                      >> >> http://pixelodeonfest.com/schedule/
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> We'll be having a discussion on this topic in the DIY theatre. The
                                      >> >> goal is to finalize version 1 of a document that we can sign on to
                                      >> and
                                      >> >> begin to establish some performance standards. It is applicable to
                                      >> >> audio and video content.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> In preparation for Pixelodeon, I have gone through the many posts on
                                      >> >> this topic and the fine summaries created by Mike Hudack of blip.tv
                                      >> >> and Todd Cochrane of GeekNewsCentral and creating a working draft.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Please look at the draft here:
                                      >> >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com/aggregation/
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> We have also had our programmer create an online database with
                                      >> >> submission form so that as soon as we have it polished, we can all
                                      >> add
                                      >> >> our names to the document as signatories. A page will display all
                                      >> the
                                      >> >> signers, updating in real time. I think the more of us we have
                                      >> backing
                                      >> >> this up, and spreading the word in our own networks, the more we can
                                      >> >> bring to bear in the marketplace.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> I am working on options to live stream our discussion from
                                      >> Pixelodeon
                                      >> >> so you "need not be present to win - I mean speak." This may be
                                      >> >> limited by our bandwidth, but stay tuned and we will at least set up
                                      >> a
                                      >> >> person or two on skype who can be relaying inbound questions and
                                      >> >> comments. If you want to get the latest real time updates please
                                      >> >> follow me on Twitter:
                                      >> >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Jay had a great idea that once we have this in place, it can be sent
                                      >> >> directly to an aggregator in violation, and we can even have
                                      >> >> designated representatives to meet with each company. Mike at blip
                                      >> has
                                      >> >> been bearing the brunt of this work; a document like this with
                                      >> >> hundreds (thousands??) of signers can only strengthen our position.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> We've envision the online signin/support petition as being open to
                                      >> all
                                      >> >> people - not just media creators, so our base of support is wide
                                      >> open.
                                      >> >> Once we have this in place, then we can start tracking and blogging
                                      >> >> about those who play nicely and those who don't, to bring our
                                      >> >> collective influence to bear out there.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> Aloha,
                                      >> >> Rox
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> --
                                      >> >> Roxanne Darling
                                      >> >> "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                      >> >> 808-384-5554
                                      >> >> http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >> http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                      >> >> http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                      >> >> http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > --
                                      >> > http://www.istalkr.com/users/pepa
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >>
                                      >> Lisa Rein
                                      >>
                                      >> http://videobloggingweek.mefeedia.com/
                                      >> http://onlisareinsradar.com
                                      >> http://www.mefeedia.com
                                      >> http://www.lisarein.com
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Roxanne Darling
                                      > "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                      > 808-384-5554
                                      > http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling
                                      >
                                      > http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                      > http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                      > http://www.barefeetstudios.com
                                      >


                                      Lisa Rein

                                      http://onlisareinsradar.com
                                      http://www.lisarein.com
                                    • Roxanne Darling
                                      Lisa, Great news. I think that doing the edits off-list is nicer to the list - SO Listers! If you want to be involved, we welcome you. Please email me and
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 30, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Lisa,

                                        Great news. I think that doing the edits off-list is nicer to the
                                        list - SO Listers! If you want to be involved, we welcome you. Please
                                        email me and Lisa with your comments:
                                        roxanne@...
                                        lisa@...

                                        Rox


                                        On 8/30/07, Lisa Rein <lisa@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Roxanne,
                                        >
                                        > Sure, I'm still down :-)
                                        >
                                        > Give me a day or two to fit it into my rotation. (ooh nice long weekend
                                        > coming up too :)
                                        >
                                        > Should I post my comments/suggestions here?
                                        >
                                        > Or would you rather we worked on it offlist, and then posted an edited
                                        > version?
                                        >
                                        > (The plus there is that the whole list doesn't have to bothered with
                                        > editing/typos/etc. -- and we can save their attention for *real* policy
                                        > decisions, etc. that might need to be made as a group :)
                                        >
                                        > But sometimes, in the interest of transparency, people like to see all the
                                        > edits in a list. So I'm cool either way.
                                        >
                                        > ok thanks!
                                        >
                                        > lisa
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Hi Lisa,
                                        > >
                                        > > I am finally pulling things together...and have added in comments to
                                        > > the original doc from here and the talk I gave at Pixelodeon to create
                                        > > a little site online. Someone is working on a "seal of approval"
                                        > > graphic and we've had one of our programmers build the form and
                                        > > database for people to sign on to the best practices.
                                        > >
                                        > > Are you still willing to take a look at the document itself? It is a
                                        > > little long, so we've used some Ajax to help focus on the different
                                        > > sections. But I think I've gotten too close to it and having your eyes
                                        > > on it would be helpful.
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.itvguild.com/aggregation-best-practices.php
                                        > > http://www.itvguild.com/petition.php
                                        > > http://www.itvguild.com/signers.php
                                        > >
                                        > > The form is live so you can submit your data; we can clean it up
                                        > > before the site goes live so don't worry about testing it.
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.itvguild.com/signers.php
                                        > >
                                        > > The site needs navigation and a home page message plus the seal so not
                                        > > to worry about that stuff.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks Lisa!
                                        > >
                                        > > Roxanne

                                        --
                                        Roxanne Darling
                                        "o ke kai" means "of the sea" in hawaiian
                                        808-384-5554
                                        http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling

                                        http://www.beachwalks.tv
                                        http://www.barefeetshop.com
                                        http://www.barefeetstudios.com
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