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Re: Wired: Yahoo Video Mimics YouTube

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  • LeanBackVids.com
    ... Just look at what the normal user experience is... A user sees only a small orange button that says RSS or XML or the square radio wave icon. None of
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 1, 2006
      --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Walk"
      <desperatelymeasured@...> wrote:
      >
      > videobloggers might be more inclined to care about rss.
      > i don't think it's particularly important to large
      > numbers of video uploaders though...not yet, anyway.

      Just look at what the normal user experience is... A user sees only a
      small orange button that says "RSS" or "XML" or the square radio wave
      icon. None of those are obvious to an RSS virgin. Most people browse
      with IE, so even when they do get curious and click the icon, they are
      taken to a page that is just code (hieroglyphics to most).

      It is an absolutely horrible user experience. Where does it tell the
      user to download an aggregator? How do they know to copy/paste the
      URL into the aggregator?

      I've been a web developer for 10 years and I was completely baffled
      the first time I tried to use RSS. (Granted, that was when Bloglines
      first came out and few sites had a feed.)

      As for the video uploaders, "most" are using YouTube and/or MySpace.
      Both those sites don't promote their feeds very well, which I think is
      a sorry attempt to horde content. They rely on advertising, which
      means they want people to visit the site and not syndicate it in an
      aggregator.

      I assume RSS adoption will increase when the masses upgrade to Vista.
      http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/reference/rss/

      --
      Matt
      http://www.vlogmap.org
      http://feeds.feedburner.com/vlogmap
    • Mike Meiser
      On the subject of Youtube and those like yahoo who would follow in their footsteps. These sites have broken it down to lthe least common denominator... nothing
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2006
        On the subject of Youtube and those like yahoo who would follow in their footsteps. These sites have broken it down to lthe least common denominator... nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. It's the race to the bottom as it weee. All the superficial characteristics of web 2.0 without the substance, the principals, the ideals.

        People will post their media at these places simply for the instant audience. But there is nothing more. It's disposable culture. We musn't loose site that it's all throw away media. It'll all be gone in a year or two, five? who knows... but do you really expect youtube to host it all for free for very long? And when they're done milking your media for it's value and ditch it, it'll be gone, because noone will have been able to remix it, revlog it, or host it anywhere.  Unlike great web2.0 services which drive traddic to the community (i.e. digg.com) all traffic is inbound to youtube... Other services drive traffic to the community... youtube sucks traffic and the media up. It's no community player. It is the center of it's own universe, and when it ends gone so too will be all that culture. But heh, maybe we can rent it from them on DVD eh?

        But don't let this stop you from using youtube. In fact we should use it. By all means post to it. Why not, it's free, but keep in mind it's got no archivability, no portability, that it's contrary to remix culture... so post to your vlog first... then use youtube strategicly, smartly, evilly, the way they intend to use you. Post media purely to drive traffic to your vlog. Use it to advertise for yourself. Put the your shit on youtube, put the equity and time and good stuff onto your vlog.

        Use them like they would use you. Companies that try to pull one over on their customers never last for long, they underestimate their customers. The only way to deal with such business practices is to use them the way they would use you. Take it for what it's worth, if it's worth anything, and throw it away when you're done. I ussually stand contrary to this disposable culture, especially when talking physical goods, but this is virtual goods for one, no lasting damage other to our own culture, besides there's just no other way than to take youtube for all it's worth.

        Youtube is for shit, it stands contrary to everything we stand for... it's popularity is unnerving, but did we really think we were going to change everything overnight? That people would buy all our principals of interoperability, portability, remixing, archivability, and so much more. This crazed rush to get video on the web has proven the time was right, we should applaud ourselves for our part in igniting that, but it doesn't disprove the value of our principals and we should be vocal about it. Don't be afraid to speak your mind even about those sellouts like Boingboing.net that have sold out their audience and their creative commons and remix culture principals in promoting such crap. This service that locks up and monopolizes the creativity of it's own participants.

        This overnight mediatization of the web has happened so quick that youtubes and other businesses who's halmark is their greed and/or their web 1.0 business strategies like lockin have had the opportunity to stear the masses into new corrals, new box canyons of media. like the .com boom the land is now to fertile for those with quick dollars in their eyes to not jump in. But it doesn't mean this is where it'll stand. Youtube has one the first fight for market share. They still haven't made a dollar... let's stick it to them, so that when they weild their lock-in like a weapon we're ready with our message, our services and our principals like interoperability, openess, and portability to make converts out their customers, previously naive to their games.


        A little ancedote... back when I first got into the web in 1993-1997 we all had such high expectations for the internet... academicly speaking...  we had no reason to think the web browser and web page would be "it".... Mosaic, the first web browser was just another application, much like youtube. People were working with far more interactive technologies like flash... technologies like VRML for creating 3D worlds... very much like the Metaverse invisioned in Neil Stephensons' Snow Crash... except for practical issues...  some of us dreamed of rich channels of media... rivalling TV and radio.... then the innovation sort of seemed to stop and slowly became fixated on this stupid most boring of metaphors... "pages" aka. "web pages".

        Basically we were all sad that things seemed to have reverted a little back to the most basic and boring metaphor of the last 500 years. We all sighed and gave up on or vrml, and watched as multimedia formats like flash were relegated to the sidelines. The world became fixated on the page. Completely unspecial.... but to think we'd failed would have been criminal... as the saying (admitedly my saying) goes... the world of the future will be nothing that you expected and yet so much more. 

        We could not have foreseen the depth that the page metaphor would hold... like social networks, how it would fundamentally alter culture, bottom up, the long tail, social capital, change politics, media... What about things like google maps and it's API, how that sort of interoperability would launch a whole new geographic landscape of data, better in manny ways than our silly VRML... The point is we often expect to much, and confuse the surface, the asthetic, the form, with the really profound underlyling changes. 

        The hallmark of this era won't be necissarily a web beyond "web pages"... a mediatized web of streams of audio and video and photos.... if it is only one thing... it's that fundamental simple idea that more people will take a more active part in creating the world we live in by following their passions and interests. That simple concept will change the world, and it likely has very little to do with the success or failure of youtube. The idea is the seed that will live on wether all these services crash and burn, wether all our ideals and principals seemed lost or not. All we can do is yell them from our vlogs, and speak our mind and share them. Be bold, preserve them, make them known.

        Soo call it the doppler effect, call it "the more things change the more they stay the same" or "the world doesn't change overnight"....  What I keep reminding myself is all this isn't going to be a two year thing... and when this bubble bursts we'll have barely scratched the surface.I keep telling myself the bubble doesn't matter again and again.  Whether in the near term all the world is a Youtube, a gooogle video, a Yahoo video or some other walled garden. Ultimately it's change is a slow process of attrition. It will continue to where down walls over decades or centuries.


        Personally my theory on how this stupid bubble will burst is this.... 

        Sites like youtube and others will become really popular, they will sell out the superficial promise to the highest bidders (big media) as either endless advertising or other 1.0 business plans as ussual. People will rapidly forget what promise they saw in these services that seem no better, and in fact worse than their cable TV with 25 minutes of real programming and 35 minutes of ads in an hour. The bubble will then deflate, perhaps even purst as VC and web 1.0 companies of boom past (microsoft, yahoo, google ebay) pull out of the sector and stop buying up startups.  The world on some large superficial level will seem to return to normal untill in a couple more years, when momentum from OUR space, which never really stopped will build around some new idea, which is really just the same as the ideas and principals we have now...  probably do some successful service which finally gets it right.... then the VC's and investors of all sorts will take another wack at it, another slice and maybe get a little closer to truely changing cultural perceptions. It's a rough process. Sometimes even when you've got it nailed it can take years and years for the market to swing in your favor. Ever hear of the term "before it's time". It's been said of thousands and thousands of companies., the trends in historic industries from computing to transportation are full of examples. It's great fun to study them too. Why didn't video conferencign ever catch on? Will it? What's going on with "smart cars"? How did apple change the world but almost go bankrupt to microsofts success in their market, the personal computer? better yet why are they returning triumpantly now?

        In order to not get carried away with the breaking surf, the bubbles... and the bursting, it's important to study the history and at times just say 'screw all that' remember your principals, and then be vicious in your pursuit of what's important to you, using those bubble makers like youtube if what matters is building an audience. Use those ridding the wave as they would use you and putting all your real equity into something you own and can build in over time... your vlog. Use youtube as cheap advertising. That's exactly what they're using you for.

        That said I'm a huge fan of Blip, and the new Vimeo too. They support all the core elements and principals such as interoperability, syndication, portability, downloadability, remixing. I still haven't tried all Vimeo's features, but it would appear they've got it where it counts, they're the closest thing to a "flickr of video" yet. They have the community (idiots might call it audience or worse consumers), the social functions, and the interoperability with things like syndication and other services. I hope both blip and vimeo do great, to of my favorite picks right now. Not to exclude anyone else, i just can't give all 150  (at last count) services credit.

        -Mike

        Disclaimer: fingers of fury, no proof read, barely a spell check. Sorry.



        On 6/1/06, LeanBackVids.com < leanbackvids@...> wrote:
        --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Walk"
        <desperatelymeasured@...> wrote:
        >
        > videobloggers might be more inclined to care about rss.
        > i don't think it's particularly important to large
        > numbers of video uploaders though...not yet, anyway.

        Just look at what the normal user experience is... A user sees only a
        small orange button that says  "RSS" or "XML" or the square radio wave
        icon.  None of those are obvious to an RSS virgin.  Most people browse
        with IE, so even when they do get curious and click the icon, they are
        taken to a page that is just code (hieroglyphics to most).

        It is an absolutely horrible user experience.  Where does it tell the
        user to download an aggregator?  How do they know to copy/paste the
        URL into the aggregator?

        I've been a web developer for 10 years and I was completely baffled
        the first time I tried to use RSS. (Granted, that was when Bloglines
        first came out and few sites had a feed.)

        As for the video uploaders, "most" are using YouTube and/or MySpace.
        Both those sites don't promote their feeds very well, which I think is
        a sorry attempt to horde content.  They rely on advertising, which
        means they want people to visit the site and not syndicate it in an
        aggregator.

        I assume RSS adoption will increase when the masses upgrade to Vista.
        http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/reference/rss/

        --
        Matt
        http://www.vlogmap.org
        http://feeds.feedburner.com/vlogmap






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      • greg
        Mike, a standing ovation for your fingers of fury tirade! (i write this as I m about to post some stuff to the ominous screw- YouTube... littered with my
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 1, 2006
          Mike,
          a standing ovation for your 'fingers of fury' tirade!
          (i write this as I'm about to post some stuff to the ominous screw-
          YouTube... littered with my logos, to bring people to my blog...
          fight fire with fire)....
          cheers!
          Greg
          http://eklektro.blogspot.com
        • Michael Sullivan
          greg, love your eklektro btw. everyone should check it out. http://eklektro.net/ ... -- Sull http://vlogdir.com http://SpreadTheMedia.org
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 1, 2006
            greg, love your eklektro btw.
            everyone should check it out. http://eklektro.net/


            On 6/1/06, greg < w600@...> wrote:
            Mike,
            a standing ovation for your 'fingers of fury' tirade!
            (i write this as I'm about to post some stuff to the ominous screw-
            YouTube... littered with my logos, to bring people to my blog...
            fight fire with fire)....
            cheers!
            Greg
            http://eklektro.blogspot.com


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            Yahoo! Groups Links

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                 videoblogging-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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            --
            Sull
            http://vlogdir.com
            http://SpreadTheMedia.org
          • greg
            Wow, i just posted a vid to YouTube, and i can t believe the drop in quality! I made an .mp4 using H264 in Quicktime 7.1, 320x240, 550kbps vid and 80 audio...
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 1, 2006
              Wow, i just posted a vid to YouTube, and i can't believe the drop in
              quality!
              I made an .mp4 using H264 in Quicktime 7.1, 320x240, 550kbps vid and
              80 audio...
              its a short video, so its only 5.7mb....
              Whatever codec they convert it to (?) looks awful and washed out...
              certainly larger than 320x240...
              So there must be a way to get better quality on YouTube...
              by uploading a movie saved in a certain codec or size to begin with?
              (so the double compression doesn't totally destroy your data)...
              They have a limit of 100mb per video, so hmmm....
              Anybody have any ideas?
              And what about Yahoo's upload specs / codecs?
              thanks all!
              Greg
            • Joshua Kinberg
              That s interesting. I guess its best to upload uncompressed, or compress as little as possible if you re going to upload to a service that converts and
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 1, 2006
                That's interesting. I guess its best to upload uncompressed, or
                compress as little as possible if you're going to upload to a service
                that converts and re-compresses the videos.

                -Josh


                On 6/1/06, greg <w600@...> wrote:
                > Wow, i just posted a vid to YouTube, and i can't believe the drop in
                > quality!
                > I made an .mp4 using H264 in Quicktime 7.1, 320x240, 550kbps vid and
                > 80 audio...
                > its a short video, so its only 5.7mb....
                > Whatever codec they convert it to (?) looks awful and washed out...
                > certainly larger than 320x240...
                > So there must be a way to get better quality on YouTube...
                > by uploading a movie saved in a certain codec or size to begin with?
                > (so the double compression doesn't totally destroy your data)...
                > They have a limit of 100mb per video, so hmmm....
                > Anybody have any ideas?
                > And what about Yahoo's upload specs / codecs?
                > thanks all!
                > Greg
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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