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RE: [videoblogging] BloggerVision

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  • Yaron Samid
    The solution for memory, space, bandwidth and cost limitations associated with today s central streaming server architecture is to completely decentralize the
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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      The solution for memory, space, bandwidth and cost limitations associated with today’s central streaming server architecture is to completely decentralize the distribution of the videos. Viewer PC bandwidth and storage is in abundance these days and significantly underutilized. That’s we’re technologies such as P2P and RSS along with self-publishing and content management innovations come into play. Video blogging is archived (not real-time) by nature, which makes it ideal for P2P-based distribution. I know you’ve been discussing BitTorrent powered RSS enclosures for video subscription and delivery – that’s a great place to being experimenting. Now imagine a push-button desktop publishing tool and global network leveraging the efficiencies of P2P with the convenience of a viewer experience embedded directly in your blog. Subscribed viewers are notified of your new post, launch your site, and watch the video (which has already been delivered in the background to their local disk) directly in your blog post. No server space, memory, or bandwidth costs whatsoever. Does that model work?

       

      -y    

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jay Dedman [mailto:jay@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 8:21 AM
      To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [videoblogging] BloggerVision

       

      The other problem is memory and bandwidth.
      If I post a 10 second video(200k) every day, I will run out of server space
      pretty quickly. I dont want to erase my archives.
      Imagine if I had DVD quality video....how big would that file be?

      And if I have 500 people watch my video every day(not inconceivable), I will
      run out of bandwidth within a week.
      Peter and I are talking about renting our own server and sharing the costs with
      other videobloggers.

      would anyone be interested?


      --
      Jay Dedman
      Manhattan Neighborhood Network
      537 West 59th (between 10th and 11th Ave)
      NY NY 10019
      www.mnn.org
      212 757 2670


    • Jay Dedman
      Mica sent me a link to this woman s website. she studies at the MIT media lab. looks like they d developing the kind of video interface that Peter dreamed up.
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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        Mica sent me a link to this woman's website.
        she studies at the MIT media lab.
        looks like they'd developing the kind of video interface that Peter dreamed up.
        http://www.audiovisceral.net/facts/this.html



        --
        Jay Dedman
        Manhattan Neighborhood Network
        537 West 59th (between 10th and 11th Ave)
        NY NY 10019
        www.mnn.org
        212 757 2670
      • Adrian Miles
        ... I know that Aisling Kelliher was working on something like this, but I m not sure where the project is up to. They were at the Media Lab at MIT and also
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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          On 16/06/2004, at 1:18 AM, Jay Dedman wrote:

          > Is anyone working on a blogging tool that you know of?

          I know that Aisling Kelliher was working on something like this, but
          I'm not sure where the project is up to. They were at the Media Lab at
          MIT and also MIT's Dublin Media Lab. they're videoblog is at:
          http://www.audiovisceral.net/

          and more details at:
          http://web.media.mit.edu/~aisling/

          also Eli at http://www.chapmanlogic.com/blog/ is working on stuff to do
          with prosumer tools that would achieve these sorts of things. btw eli
          has a good list of links.

          cheers
          Adrian Miles
          .................................................................
          hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
          interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
          research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
        • Adrian Miles
          ... now i need to be careful here, but I can provide some hosting space/bandwidth from my server. it is in Australia (in a small room downstairs), but i can do
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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            On 16/06/2004, at 1:21 AM, Jay Dedman wrote:

            > And if I have 500 people watch my video every day(not inconceivable),
            > I will
            > run out of bandwidth within a week.
            > Peter and I are talking about renting our own server and sharing the
            > costs with
            > other videobloggers.
            >
            > would anyone be interested?

            now i need to be careful here, but I can provide some hosting
            space/bandwidth from my server. it is in Australia (in a small room
            downstairs), but i can do this for you for free. the proviso's are:

            1. the content must adhere to fair use provisions
            2. it can't slander, vilify, etc
            3. it must fit the research stuff i'm trying to support (providing some
            kickstart help for videoblogs is ok)
            4. it is a research server which means there is definitely *no* 24/7
            support and minimal backups are kept.

            given all that, is some people are interested in say 1Gb of free server
            space to serve from for a while, let me know and we'll see what we can
            come up with.

            cheers
            Adrian Miles
            .................................................................
            hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
            interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
            research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
          • Adrian Miles
            ... I m confused by this, though intrigued. by p2p do you mean there may be multiple copies of the vog distributed via p2p to n clients so that when client x
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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              On 16/06/2004, at 5:56 AM, Yaron Samid wrote:

              > Now imagine a push-button desktop publishing tool and global network
              > leveraging the efficiencies of P2P with the convenience of a viewer
              > experience embedded directly in your blog. Subscribed viewers are
              > notified of your new post, launch your site, and watch the video
              > (which has already been delivered in the background to their local
              > disk) directly in your blog post. No server space, memory, or
              > bandwidth costs whatsoever. Does that model work?

              I'm confused by this, though intrigued.

              by p2p do you mean there may be multiple copies of the vog distributed
              via p2p to n clients so that when client x requests the video it is
              served from client y who already has it?

              cheers
              Adrian Miles
              .................................................................
              hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
              interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
              research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
            • Adrian Miles
              ... also check out http://weblogs.media.mit.edu/mupes/ to see the nokia project they re working on. ... cheers Adrian Miles
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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                On 16/06/2004, at 10:07 AM, Jay Dedman wrote:

                > looks like they'd developing the kind of video interface that Peter
                > dreamed up.
                > http://www.audiovisceral.net/facts/this.html

                also check out
                http://weblogs.media.mit.edu/mupes/

                to see the nokia project they're working on.
                >

                cheers
                Adrian Miles
                .................................................................
                hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
                interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
                research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
              • Jay Dedman
                isn t this what Bit Torrent is supposed to do? it seems too clunky to me. so today we ve narrowed down the problems: --we need a simple interface that edits,
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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                  isn't this what Bit Torrent is supposed to do?
                  it seems too clunky to me.

                  so today we've narrowed down the problems:
                  --we need a simple interface that edits, optimizes, and posts video to a blog.
                  --we need to solve the problem of storage so i can keep my archived video for
                  years to come and have a permanent video presence on the web.
                  --we need to solve the problem of bandwidth so I wont go broke if a bunch of
                  people decide to follow my Moments day to day.

                  The next thing is developing a langauge of videoblogging.


                  >
                  > On 16/06/2004, at 5:56 AM, Yaron Samid wrote:
                  >
                  > > Now imagine a push-button desktop publishing tool and global network
                  > > leveraging the efficiencies of P2P with the convenience of a viewer
                  > > experience embedded directly in your blog. Subscribed viewers are
                  > > notified of your new post, launch your site, and watch the video
                  > > (which has already been delivered in the background to their local
                  > > disk) directly in your blog post. No server space, memory, or
                  > > bandwidth costs whatsoever. Does that model work?
                  >
                  > I'm confused by this, though intrigued.
                  >
                  > by p2p do you mean there may be multiple copies of the vog distributed
                  > via p2p to n clients so that when client x requests the video it is
                  > served from client y who already has it?
                  >
                  > cheers
                  > Adrian Miles


                  --
                  Jay Dedman
                  Manhattan Neighborhood Network
                  537 West 59th (between 10th and 11th Ave)
                  NY NY 10019
                  www.mnn.org
                  212 757 2670
                • Adrian Miles
                  ... as is so often the case Ted Nelson s original ideas would have been handy here. He envisaged a system of micropayments for IP so that if you view my work i
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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                    On 16/06/2004, at 11:36 AM, Jay Dedman wrote:

                    > --we need to solve the problem of bandwidth so I wont go broke if a
                    > bunch of
                    > people decide to follow my Moments day to day.

                    as is so often the case Ted Nelson's original ideas would have been
                    handy here. He envisaged a system of micropayments for IP so that if
                    you view my work i earn n cents. if i view your work you earn n cents.
                    if i quote your work same deal.

                    at the moment ISPs pay for bandwidth and data flow, then charge this
                    down the line to end users. so the business model is basically
                    wholesale v. retail, but Nelson's model is essentially P2P, and of
                    course means if your content is popular you earn more, rather than pay
                    more (the irony online remaining that if your content is popular it
                    costs you, which is generally the reverse of other economic systems).

                    cheers
                    Adrian Miles
                    .................................................................
                    hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
                    interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
                    research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                  • Adrian Miles
                    ... I m too far out of trad. media studies these days to know how accurate this is :-) But i ll still keep the hat on and suggest it is only half true. In
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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                      On 15/06/2004, at 5:09 PM, Yaron Samid wrote:

                      > Quality of service, namely picture quality (resolution and screen
                      > size) is important to mainstream viewer adoption. Its been proven
                      > time and again in the media world. Cable TV killed that antenna on
                      > top of your old TV set because of picture quality, not because of
                      > the 100 channels you never watch. You'll be switching to and paying
                      > extra for HDTV soon to. That being said, I've always felt the
                      > plumbing is only worth the shit it delivers. Picture quality or not,
                      > you're 100% correct, content is THE main driver of viewership and
                      > always will be.

                      I'm too far out of trad. media studies these days to know how accurate
                      this is :-) But i'll still keep the hat on and suggest it is only half
                      true. In Aust. cable uptake has been low, and in Britain it (I think)
                      was kick started by Murdoch buying football rights and sticking it on
                      the satellite. Here digital TV is being kicked off by home DVD +
                      theatre, not to get the digital signal. People are buying bigger tvs
                      with better sound systems so the extra few dollars for the decoder is
                      no big deal, but it is still secondary.

                      now, on top of that, keep in mind in the US you have NTSC and we have
                      PAL (as does Europe) which does look better, so the technical demand or
                      gap is lessened. Also I'd suggest it is not just quality of image but
                      content. Here things like the Soprano's, Sex in the City, Six Feet
                      Under, etc are all free to air but they are all cable in the States.
                      Now, not only is this content that US free to air can't match, but it
                      is also clear that cable has caused a renaissance in US television
                      production. This is because of the creative freedom that cable
                      produces, not because the picture is so much better :-)

                      I'm not disagreeing, just suggesting it is not just a question of
                      supply and demand where supply = better quality images and sound.

                      >
                      > I would think picture quality is relevant for video bloggers as
                      > well, whether they shoot a 15 second "life moment" or 5 minute short
                      > movie -- you put in the time to produce the content, isn't it a
                      > shame to have it seen in a choppy 200X100 window? Before you answer
                      > that, let me just say that it is entirely up to you. Our goal is not
                      > to enforce any production value standards on video bloggers, just to
                      > facilitate the publishing and distribution of their video files,
                      > regardless of its size. The key value to video bloggers is that its
                      > an free and easy way to publish video online. If they still want to
                      > create small, low-res files, that's completely up to them. Low
                      > quality encoding standards are actually imposed on people by the
                      > bandwith/costs limitations of streaming. Sticking to that standard
                      > with our technology would be like driving a porsche in 1st gear, but
                      > to each his own. This is really not about picture quality for the
                      > publishers but I'm glad you brought it up.

                      again 50% there. If I want to accept what are basically Hollywood
                      production values translated to the web then sure, but what if I want
                      to be Jean Luc Goddard on the web? Or any other new wave director?
                      What's the web equivalent there? Perhaps it is 320 x 240, stuttering,
                      shuddering video. But of course, the model ought to support all needs.

                      I do argue strongly for the idea that networked video is about desktop
                      screens. it isn't tv or cinema and misjudges the desktop if it tries to
                      be this. why? well the screen is domestic and personal. it is usually
                      viewed by one person, me. right now i have 12 programs running and I'll
                      flip from writing mail to my news browser to my web browser as I need
                      or whim dictates. So the model of content in this environment is the
                      blog chunk. That isn't just 20" bits of video but it is also 20" bits
                      of video that play nicely on my desktop with everything else that I'm
                      doing. For example, right now the best 'vogs' are high quality 30
                      second commercials that companies make available online. my personal
                      favourites have been the US Volkswagen ads. They're 30seconds long,
                      download in easily, play politely, have good production values and good
                      narratives. They don't want to be movies, they don't want or need to
                      own my desktop. Would I like much better quality sound and vision? sure
                      :-) Will it ever be enough? No.

                      >
                      > How important do you think it is for video bloggers to have thier
                      > clips seen by many people? Is it a small community thing or are we
                      > striving for mainstream viewership?
                      >

                      oh, tricky one. If you're using the blog model then it is more about a
                      community of reader/viewers which could be 10's, 100's, 1000's or
                      10,000's. if you want a lot of viewers then it is easy to get them, but
                      if you want quality readers then it is a case of making decent work and
                      letting the audience accrue. what many in .com misunderstand is that
                      for things like blogs and vogs the start up costs basically approach 0.
                      That means there is no implicit need to garner an audience to recoup
                      the start up and running costs. So if you make decent content, leave it
                      there, add to it, your audience builds over time.

                      in terms of vogs the trickiest part is to develop the same architecture
                      that blogs have. permalinks that point to video objects not html
                      objects, a way of linking to those, and the like. This is what will
                      significantly help videoblogs as a specific practice, the other
                      conversation is to treat video on the web as only a question about
                      delivery. it isn't. it is also about making, writing, publishing, then
                      viewing and linking.

                      cheers
                      Adrian Miles
                      .................................................................
                      hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
                      interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
                      research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                    • Jay Dedman
                      Adrian, I got in touch with the guy, Kow Atta-Mensah, who helped the MIT woman build a pseudo-videoblogging tool. http://www.audiovisceral.net/facts/this.html
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 15, 2004
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                        Adrian,
                        I got in touch with the guy, Kow Atta-Mensah, who helped the MIT woman build a
                        pseudo-videoblogging tool.
                        http://www.audiovisceral.net/facts/this.html
                        He said they built it a couple years ago.
                        The only thing they didnt do was give it an FTP function.

                        He said we could possibly get the code for it.
                        would anyone be interested in figuring it out if we could get the code?

                        "im sad to tell you that i haven't made an update to that software in
                        almost a couple of years. it was an undergraduate research project i
                        was helping with back at MIT. i recently graduated and left the
                        institute. i am not sure, but aisling might have had someone take over
                        my role. you can reach her at aisling@.... just tell her i
                        pointed you to her. sadly, i dont even have my old source, but if she
                        does i believe she would be willing to give it to you. sort of messy,
                        but someone java savvy should be able to figure it out. if you have any
                        questions, i'd be glad to answer them."

                        "i dont believe i ever finished that part(FTP)... but there are lots of open
                        source java ftp clients (and servers) available so making the addition
                        is pretty simple. the recording capability i built in was fast for the
                        time (for java anyways) and im sure newer versions of the quicktime and
                        jmf apis have been released which will make an immediate speed
                        increase."





                        --
                        Jay Dedman
                        Manhattan Neighborhood Network
                        537 West 59th (between 10th and 11th Ave)
                        NY NY 10019
                        www.mnn.org
                        212 757 2670
                      • Adrian Miles
                        ... well one possibility is that I try to get Apple University Consortium money here in Australia to finish it and release it. Though if it is MIT s then I d
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 16, 2004
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                          On 16/06/2004, at 3:10 PM, Jay Dedman wrote:

                          > I got in touch with the guy, Kow Atta-Mensah, who helped the MIT woman
                          > build a
                          > pseudo-videoblogging tool.
                          > http://www.audiovisceral.net/facts/this.html
                          > He said they built it a couple years ago.
                          > The only thing they didnt do was give it an FTP function.
                          >
                          > He said we could possibly get the code for it.
                          > would anyone be interested in figuring it out if we could get the code?

                          well one possibility is that I try to get Apple University Consortium
                          money here in Australia to finish it and release it. Though if it is
                          MIT's then I'd assume they own it.
                          Other suggestions welcome. I can't program Java but this is certainly I
                          project I might be able to get funding for.

                          cheers
                          Adrian Miles
                          .................................................................
                          hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
                          interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
                          research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                        • petertheman
                          ... certainly I project I might be able to get funding for. There is a whole bunch of tools needed (videoblogging tools, aggregating tools, ...) for various
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 16, 2004
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                            > Other suggestions welcome. I can't program Java but this is
                            certainly I project I might be able to get funding for.

                            There is a whole bunch of tools needed (videoblogging tools,
                            aggregating tools, ...) for various audiences. And more importantly,
                            standards are needed for those tools (Bittorrent for P2P, RSS
                            enclosures for syndication, ...).

                            Is anyone interested in outlining the various audiences and/or use
                            cases and types of tools/standards we imagine together? We can put
                            them on the me-tv.org wiki. Having good requirements might inspire
                            someone to actually build these things :)

                            As I said before, I started playing around with some requirements for
                            one type of tool on the wiki (it's slow right now, cheap host!).

                            PS: An article in the new scientist mentions videoblogging:

                            http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/article.jsp?
                            id=99995015&sub=Communications

                            "A pair of sunglasses that can detect when someone is making eye
                            contact with the wearer has been developed by Canadian researchers.
                            Besides being useful in singles bars, its inventors say the system
                            could play a key role in video blogging, a hi-tech form of diary
                            keeping."

                            Jay actually has a pair of funky glasses (they look inconspicous in
                            the Lower East Side in NYC) connected to a video recording device.
                            Jay, wanna try out videoblogging with those?

                            Cheers,
                            Peter
                          • Jay Dedman
                            We ve been talking about devloping a vdieobloggin tool. which would be amazing if we could make happen. But my question is this: how would you use it? I
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 16, 2004
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                              We've been talking about devloping a vdieobloggin tool.
                              which would be amazing if we could make happen.
                              But my question is this:
                              how would you use it?

                              I subscribe to all the videoblogs I can find, and most update every two
                              weeks to every two months.
                              definitely not daily.
                              is videoblogging was a more intuitive process would you post video daily?
                              what would it be?

                              i know some people are about short Moments, while others are into edited
                              movies.
                              Id like to hear from some of the people who havent posted yet.


                              --
                              Jay Dedman
                              Manhattan Neighborhood Network
                              537 West 59th (between 10th and 11th Ave)
                              NY NY 10019
                              www.mnn.org
                              212 757 2670
                            • Adrian Miles
                              ... well next year i have 50 students who will all be doing at least one small project around video blogs. so something that lets you: capture, do a quick cut,
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 16, 2004
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                                On 17/06/2004, at 4:09 AM, Jay Dedman wrote:

                                > how would you use it?

                                well next year i have 50 students who will all be doing at least one
                                small project around video blogs. so something that lets you:

                                capture, do a quick cut, set in and out points, publish straight into
                                your blog CMS.

                                iMovie does everything except the last bit, but given the things out
                                there for iPhoto to publish to a blog, etc, I'm assuming it would be
                                possible to write a plug in for iMovie that would do this.

                                not sure about the 95% of the world on pcs though.

                                cheers
                                Adrian Miles
                                .................................................................
                                hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
                                interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
                                research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                              • Deirdre Straughan, class of 81
                                ... bunch of ... Seems to me there s something wrong with this model. If your blog were that popular, wouldn t it be fair for YOU to get paid for it? After
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 19, 2004
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                                  > --we need to solve the problem of bandwidth so I wont go broke if a
                                  bunch of
                                  > people decide to follow my Moments day to day.

                                  Seems to me there's something wrong with this model. If your blog were
                                  that popular, wouldn't it be fair for YOU to get paid for it? After
                                  all, someone somewhere along the line is making money from our viewing
                                  you - at the very least, our various bandwidth providers. If there
                                  wasn't stuff on the web we wanted to see (including you), we wouldn't
                                  be paying the providers, and especially we wouldn't be paying them for
                                  the high speed needed to view video.


                                  best regards,
                                  Deirdré Straughan

                                  http://www.straughan.com
                                • Adrian Miles
                                  ... Ted Nelson had a vision of this in the 60s which largely consisted of micropayments for *all* content. each time you view my content i earn, let s say
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 22, 2004
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                                    On 20/07/2004, at 12:05 AM, Deirdre Straughan, class of 81 wrote:

                                    > Seems to me there's something wrong with this model. If your blog were
                                    > that popular, wouldn't it be fair for YOU to get paid for it? After
                                    > all, someone somewhere along the line is making money from our viewing
                                    > you - at the very least, our various bandwidth providers. If there
                                    > wasn't stuff on the web we wanted to see (including you), we wouldn't
                                    > be paying the providers, and especially we wouldn't be paying them for
                                    > the high speed needed to view video.
                                    >

                                    Ted Nelson had a vision of this in the 60s which largely consisted of
                                    micropayments for *all* content. each time you view my content i earn,
                                    let's say .00001 cent per byte. When I view yours, I pay the same. at
                                    some point some equity arises but the main point was that valuable
                                    (viewed/used) content would be rewarded with increased payment.

                                    This was part of Project Xanadu, well before the WWW was a twinkle in
                                    Tim's eyes.

                                    cheers
                                    Adrian Miles
                                    .................................................................
                                    hypertext.rmit || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/adrian
                                    interactive networked video || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog
                                    research blog || hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                                  • The Dane
                                    ... There are currently companies out there providing micropayment services and I ve though of instituting micropayments on some of my own material, but the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 23, 2004
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                                      --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Miles
                                      > Ted Nelson had a vision of this in the 60s
                                      > which largely consisted of micropayments for
                                      > *all* content. each time you view my content
                                      > i earn, let's say .00001 cent per byte. When
                                      > I view yours, I pay the same. at some point
                                      > some equity arises but the main point was
                                      > that valuable (viewed/used) content would
                                      > be rewarded with increased payment.


                                      There are currently companies out there providing micropayment
                                      services and I've though of instituting micropayments on some of my
                                      own material, but the trick is becoming popular enough to merit
                                      people paying for your content. Most of the videoblogs I watch, I
                                      watch because the only thing they cost is my time - and I probably
                                      wouldn't watch them if I had to pay even a small amount. And I'm an
                                      interested party. This is where programming concepts come in (not
                                      computer programming, but market programming). It's like it's cool
                                      that there are public access channels on television, but nobody
                                      would ever pay to see the kind of stuff on public access.

                                      So really the trick is, build a market of people who would pay a
                                      nickel to watch your videoblogging and then you can charge. If you
                                      charge before the market exists, it'll be much more difficult to
                                      even get it off the ground.
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