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Re: [videoblogging] you keep the file that you want to share using BitTorrent

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  • Rick B. Rey
    ... It shouldn t be the users responsibility to distribute files. It s great that the option is available, though, and I think we should move to streamline the
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 17, 2004
      > This is the part of BitTorrent that keeps me from joining in.
      >
      > I don't really want may machine to be open to the net for people to
      > download files.

      It shouldn't be the users responsibility to distribute files. It's great
      that the option is available, though, and I think we should move to
      streamline the process as much as possible.

      There are a lot of obstacles to overcome to become a videoblogger. I think
      some of the more fundamental are related the process of creating original
      content and publishing it in a web-friendly format. Bandwidth and storage,
      in my opinion, are secondary concerns (but still very important).

      -Rick
    • Jay dedman
      correct. creation and posting of videos is the most important part of this. without the videos, who cares about ditsribution. yes, we need a simple all-in-one
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 17, 2004
        correct.
        creation and posting of videos is the most important part of this.
        without the videos, who cares about ditsribution.

        yes, we need a simple all-in-one videoblogging tool that edits,
        compresses and posts.
        but its also about individuals wanting to make videos.
        i mean, its possible now...but very few people are videoblogging regularly.
        i struggle with why this is........

        about bit torrent.
        why be afraid of people downloading files off your computer?
        making your computer the server is the answer.
        what's the worry exactly?

        its great if you have huge monthly bandwidth and storage...
        but as Eric Rice admits....you can never have enough when
        hundreds/thousands of people are downloading your work.
        but with Torrents, the more poeple who are part of the network...the
        faster the download...and NO ONE loses out on bandwidth.
        its really the logic we want to follow.
        My cable modem is "always on"...so im using all of it.

        the problem right now, as Josh Kinsberg can attest, is the ease of use.
        its very easy to download a torrent using Azureus.
        Its next to impossible to figure out (for me) how to create a torrent
        out of a video, post it to my blog, and "seed" it so other people can
        download it.
        But we're working on that problem.

        So maybe Steve is just worried about the openness of the
        system...anyone can pull files off your computer...
        so make a closed network,
        like the one between my TV station, MNN, and a community Tv station in
        Lowell MASS.

        here is a very practical use of Bit Torrent.
        called "Digital Bicycle".
        http://10speed.ltc.org/2004/10/community-media-review-digitalbicycle.html
        our two stations are going to use bit torrent to trade 28-minute TV shows.
        once we get it to work, we'll get other community stations to join the network.
        but it wont be open to the public...by invite only.
        yet....the effect will be evry powerful.
        up till now, the only way community Tv stations could trade programs
        is through snail mail.

        again, the tools are here...its the ease of use that we're working on.

        Jay
      • Steve Garfield
        ... It s easy to make lots of videos, but making videos that I think people might want to watch takes more work. Text and photo blogging doesn t ask much of
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 17, 2004
          On Oct 17, 2004, at 8:58 PM, Jay dedman wrote:

          > but its also about individuals wanting to make videos.
          > i mean, its possible now...but very few people are videoblogging
          > regularly.
          > i struggle with why this is........
          >

          It's easy to make lots of videos, but making videos that I think people
          might want to watch takes more work.

          Text and photo blogging doesn't ask much of the user, they can take a
          quick look at a post, skim it if they like, and move along.

          With a video post, and audio post, you don't know what you are getting
          until you invest your time.

          When I find a trusted source, like Adam Curry, I choose to invest
          almost an hour a day, because I know what type of content I'm going to
          get.

          Now that there are 100's of podcasts, I find it overwhelming to think
          about sampling these new shows.

          With video it's going to be the same.


          > about bit torrent.
          > why be afraid of people downloading files off your computer?
          > making your computer the server is the answer.
          > what's the worry exactly?
          >

          I don't understand Bit Torrent and I don't want to open up my computer
          to the net. Opening up my disk space on my hosting provider, no
          problem.

          > its great if you have huge monthly bandwidth and storage...
          > but as Eric Rice admits....you can never have enough when
          > hundreds/thousands of people are downloading your work.
          > but with Torrents, the more poeple who are part of the network...the
          > faster the download...and NO ONE loses out on bandwidth.
          > its really the logic we want to follow.
          > My cable modem is "always on"...so im using all of it.
          >

          I'm not sure that my cable modem provider allows use of computers
          connected to the net to be servers.

          --------- [ Web Sites ] ---------
          Steve Garfield Video Production
          http://stevegarfield.com

          Video Blog
          http://stevegarfield.blogs.com/videoblog/

          Weblog: Off On A Tangent
          http://offonatangent.blogspot.com/
        • Jay dedman
          ... huh, id like someone to answer this. my cable company gives me an always-on connection. could they stop me from sharing files...as long as they are not
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 17, 2004
            > I'm not sure that my cable modem provider allows use of computers
            > connected to the net to be servers.

            huh, id like someone to answer this.
            my cable company gives me an always-on connection.
            could they stop me from sharing files...as long as they are not copyrighted?

            >Now that there are 100's of podcasts, I find it overwhelming to think
            >about sampling these new shows.

            you speak the rtruth.
            i spent the better part of the day using iPodder to download
            everything and listen.
            most of it sucked.
            this sounds like the problem we have in Community TV....
            a person can put anything on TV..but its so much freedom...that most
            of it sucks.
            YET the point is that people are making the media.
            adam curry, i listen to everyday becasue he's consistently good.
            he's having a conversation with us.

            conversations.
          • Rick B. Rey
            ... Some providers are starting to put a cap on the amount of data you can transfer per month (e.g. 25-30GB). ... This is an important point. We can learn a
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 17, 2004
              > my cable company gives me an always-on connection.
              > could they stop me from sharing files...as long as they are not
              > copyrighted?

              Some providers are starting to put a cap on the amount of data you can
              transfer per month (e.g. 25-30GB).

              > i spent the better part of the day using iPodder to download
              > everything and listen.
              > most of it sucked.

              This is an important point. We can learn a lesson from this. If podcasters
              are more concerned about technology and ease of use than content, people
              will lose internet and the trend will die.

              Don't let that happen to us. We should think beyond the technology and
              focus on content issues too.

              Video has an advantage over audio. It's more engaging. People consume it
              more readily. Podcasting is a stepping stone to videoblogging. The
              bandwidth is there. The storage capacity is there. Compression
              technologies are there. But, we still need to tackle fundamental issues.

              e.g.
              What makes a "good" video blog?
              Why are we drawn to it?
              What can we offer that people can't get from other mediums?
              How should we organize our videos?
              How should we package them?
              How should we distribute them?

              From what I've read, a lot of progress has already been made in these
              areas. But as someone who's still new to all this, I'm still struggling
              with a very basic problem: I don't know which direction to take with my
              video blog. I know that I WANT to broadcast, but I'm not sure exactly WHAT
              I want to broadcast. I suspect other people have the same problem.

              I know that "Internet Video Broadcasting" has a bright future, and we're
              there at the beginning. It's exciting when you think about it.

              -Rick
            • Adrian Miles
              ... not really. but yes :-) remember I can listen to audio while walking, cycling, driving, cooking, cleaning, etc. whereas video requires all of my attention.
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                On 18/10/2004, at 4:46 PM, Rick B. Rey wrote:

                > Video has an advantage over audio. It's more engaging. People consume
                > it
                > more readily. Podcasting is a stepping stone to videoblogging. The
                > bandwidth is there. The storage capacity is there. Compression
                > technologies are there. But, we still need to tackle fundamental
                > issues.

                not really. but yes :-)

                remember I can listen to audio while walking, cycling, driving,
                cooking, cleaning, etc. whereas video requires all of my attention. not
                many people will watch a 40 minute vogcast because most of us don't
                have 40 minutes available.

                cheers
                Adrian Miles

                +++++++++++++++++++++
                http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
              • Adrian Miles
                ... 1. video production is now as cheap as chips 2. so don t be precious about it. 3. because entries are now sketches, not finished works 4. so experiment to
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                  On 18/10/2004, at 4:46 PM, Rick B. Rey wrote:

                  > From what I've read, a lot of progress has already been made in these
                  > areas. But as someone who's still new to all this, I'm still struggling
                  > with a very basic problem: I don't know which direction to take with my
                  > video blog. I know that I WANT to broadcast, but I'm not sure exactly
                  > WHAT
                  > I want to broadcast. I suspect other people have the same problem.
                  >

                  1. video production is now as cheap as chips
                  2. so don't be precious about it.
                  3. because entries are now sketches, not finished works
                  4. so experiment to find your voice
                  5. include yourself
                  6. and anything else you have someting intelligent to say about
                  7. use the camera and editing
                  8. put it out there, get a theme going, let people in,.

                  cheers
                  Adrian Miles

                  +++++++++++++++++++++
                  http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                • Adrian Miles
                  ... yes, most isp s constrain the amount you can send back up channel. In australia you generally can t serve (via http for eg) via your cable service. if you
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                    On 18/10/2004, at 3:34 PM, Jay dedman wrote:

                    > huh, id like someone to answer this.
                    > my cable company gives me an always-on connection.
                    > could they stop me from sharing files...as long as they are not
                    > copyrighted?

                    yes, most isp's constrain the amount you can send back up channel. In
                    australia you generally can't serve (via http for eg) via your cable
                    service. if you do that they treat you as 'commercial' (yet another
                    instance of the telco's complete misreading of network technologies).
                    no idea what thhey're going to do about torrents and podcasting, but
                    you don't get same back up as down and usually there are limits.

                    cheers
                    Adrian Miles

                    +++++++++++++++++++++
                    http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                  • Andreas Haugstrup
                    On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:13:51 -0400, Jay dedman ... You always beat me to posting. I heard my first Podcast shows Saturday and today I
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                      On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:13:51 -0400, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...>
                      wrote:

                      > some of you may be keeping an eye on what Adam Curry et al are doing
                      > in the audio world.
                      > they are "podcasting".

                      You always beat me to posting. I heard my first Podcast shows Saturday and
                      today I wrote a bit on why Podcasting sucks. It sucks for the same reasons
                      videoblogging sucks so it's not all bad. Pocasting sucks because it
                      doesn't try to be more than radio in the same way videoblogging sucks
                      because it doesn't try to be more than tv.

                      Read the whole blog entry at:
                      <URL:http://www.solitude.dk/archives/20041018-1120/>

                      - Andreas
                      --
                      Personal: <http://www.solitude.dk>
                      File Thingie - PHP File Manager <http://www.solitude.dk/filethingie/>
                    • Steve Garfield
                      ... Adam Curry doesn t suck. As he says on his podcast, he s not sitting in a soundproof room giving us a sanitized radio show. It s real. If you listened to
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                        On Oct 18, 2004, at 5:27 AM, Andreas Haugstrup wrote:

                        > Pocasting sucks because it
                        > doesn't try to be more than radio in the same way videoblogging sucks
                        > because it doesn't try to be more than tv.

                        Adam Curry doesn't suck.

                        As he says on his podcast, he's not sitting in a soundproof room giving
                        us a sanitized radio show.

                        It's real.

                        If you listened to his show, you'd see how different it really is.

                        It's blog-like in the way Adam interacts with listeners using emails,
                        audio messages and even videos.

                        By being a time shifted podcast, it's more than radio, since I can
                        listen to it whenever I want. I'm already a TiVo fanatic. Podcasting
                        allows me to enjoy more audio programs than I'd normally listen to.

                        I love it!
                        --------- [ Web Sites ] ---------
                        Steve Garfield Video Production
                        http://stevegarfield.com

                        Video Blog
                        http://stevegarfield.blogs.com/videoblog/

                        Weblog: Off On A Tangent
                        http://offonatangent.blogspot.com/
                      • Eric Botticelli
                        ... I believe the average time spent in front of the tv is 4 hours?
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                          > not really. but yes :-)
                          >
                          > remember I can listen to audio while walking, cycling, driving,
                          > cooking, cleaning, etc. whereas video requires all of my attention. not
                          > many people will watch a 40 minute vogcast because most of us don't
                          > have 40 minutes available.
                          >

                          I believe the average time spent in front of the tv is 4 hours?
                        • Jay dedman
                          ... the hypermedia nature ... been widespread so people haven t mistaken videoblogging for amatuer tv yet. This is what Adrian Miles mean when he ... of
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                            >Videoblogging has the exact same 'problem' — it too has not embraced
                            the hypermedia nature
                            >of the world wide web. The difference is that portable tvs has never
                            been widespread so people >haven't mistaken videoblogging for amatuer
                            tv yet. This is what Adrian Miles mean when he
                            >claims that A vog is not streaming video (this is not the reinvention
                            of television) and a part of A >vog is a video blog where video in a
                            blog must be more than video in a blog.

                            See, you and Adrian have spoken of this before.
                            and I have seen Adrian's videos where they're interactive...but is that it?
                            its cool....but im not sure how much better this is from straight up
                            storytelling.
                            id really like to see more examples of what youre talking about when
                            you say "hypermedia nature".

                            sure many of us videobloggers are basically making "TV"....sequential
                            images....but its the content that's important.
                            maybe we just havent taken enough chances with content.
                            everyone's a little shy and learning, figuring out the audience.....

                            i guess this is the question:
                            --are we trying to create something new in videoblogs(can we?).
                            --or are we just making the publishing and distribution open to the
                            public in a way that has never been possible.
                          • Steve Garfield
                            ... Yes. I think we are doing both. You promote people shooting video of their lives and sharing it. Something new would be an interactive video where viewers
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                              On Oct 18, 2004, at 12:49 PM, Jay dedman wrote:

                              > i guess this is the question:
                              > --are we trying to create something new in videoblogs(can we?).
                              > --or are we just making the publishing and distribution open to the
                              > public in a way that has never been possible.


                              Yes.

                              I think we are doing both.

                              You promote people shooting video of their lives and sharing it.

                              Something new would be an interactive video where viewers can watch the
                              video AND take advantage of web features such as hyperlinks and text.

                              A friend of mine, Ravi Jain, made a web based sitcom called Three
                              Abreast which had these features.

                              It was written up in SF GATE:

                              "Each show runs just eight minutes, which means the average cubicle
                              dweller could easily sneak in a show during a coffee or lunch break.
                              But more significantly, Jain has created what he calls the "Comedy
                              Extender," a cyber version of VH1's "Pop-Up Video" that runs onscreen
                              beside the show to give viewers a chance to digest obscure pop-culture
                              references, click on other related sites, learn more about the actors
                              and even view storyboards and scripts."

                              Episodes are no longer online, http://three-abreast.com/ , but he is
                              planning on bringing them back.

                              The cool thing about the hows was that when he referenced something in
                              the sitcom, information and a link would pop up in a window that was
                              right along side the video.

                              Pioneering stuff that took a lot of work.

                              --------- [ Web Sites ] ---------
                              Steve Garfield Video Production
                              http://stevegarfield.com

                              Video Blog
                              http://stevegarfield.blogs.com/videoblog/

                              Weblog: Off On A Tangent
                              http://offonatangent.blogspot.com/
                            • Jay dedman
                              ... see, i think we must put this in context. I wouldnt watch a 40 minute videoblog on my computer. when im online....i want to MOVE and answer meial and
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                                > > remember I can listen to audio while walking, cycling, driving,
                                > > cooking, cleaning, etc. whereas video requires all of my attention. not
                                > > many people will watch a 40 minute vogcast because most of us don't
                                > > have 40 minutes available.
                                > >
                                >
                                > I believe the average time spent in front of the tv is 4 hours?

                                see, i think we must put this in context.
                                I wouldnt watch a 40 minute videoblog on my computer.
                                when im online....i want to MOVE and answer meial and research stuff.
                                BUT
                                if we can figure out a way to get our videoblogs on TV,
                                then its another ballgame.
                                when i watch TV, Im the most open Ill be all day.
                                Im ready to follow anything.

                                so i think Adrian and andreas are talking about right
                                NOW...videoblogs/vogs/vlogs/vblogs are just a fun way to experiment.
                                but some of us are practicing for when we can co-opt the TV experience.
                              • Joshua Kinberg
                                To me, content is less important. Maybe that s because I m not actually an active videoblogger at the moment (but as Adam Curry has shown, this is where users
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                                  To me, content is less important. Maybe that's because I'm not
                                  actually an active videoblogger at the moment (but as Adam Curry has
                                  shown, this is where "users and developers can party together" :-) I
                                  believe there are a million creative people out there who can make
                                  great videos! That will happen and people will watch if we can make it
                                  easier to publish and distribute video in this format.

                                  Video production is getting easier all the time (equipment is cheaper,
                                  etc), but, the barriers for distribution are getting higher all the
                                  time -- there are now only a handful of companies that control almost
                                  everything that goes on TV. So, a lot of us want to use video to
                                  communicate, tell stories, etc, but most of us don't have access to an
                                  outlet for distribution.

                                  However, the web is fast becoming this distribution channel that is
                                  open to all -- big companies and creative individuals alike. People
                                  have been talking about this for a long time, but its only now
                                  starting to come together.

                                  Blogging is a natural fit because it has built in tools for relatively
                                  easy publishing and distribution based on open standards (RSS, etc).
                                  Plus, the very nature of the Web makes it possible to spread ideas far
                                  and fast -- links, comments, trackbacks, searches/meta-data,
                                  pinging/notifications, etc...

                                  These things are out there, but we have to assemble the pieces and
                                  cobble them together to make it work. iPodder is a wonderful example
                                  of this. There is no reason iPodder couldn't have happened 2-3 years
                                  ago. Everyone knew it could be done and how to do it, but no one
                                  actually put the pieces together until Adam Curry took it upon himself
                                  about 8 weeks ago -- now everyone's jumping in. Add that to the fact
                                  that iPod (and MP3 players in general) are now hitting a tipping point
                                  within pop-culture -- and boom!

                                  TiVo and PVRs will hit that tipping point someday soon. And when they
                                  do, all this content from the web will be readily available on your TV
                                  -- and then the handful of companies that run TV will face some much
                                  needed competition. Video distribution to mobile devices is not far
                                  off either. For now, i think most of us are thinking about how the web
                                  browser affects this medium. That's important, but it won't always be
                                  the case.

                                  My 2 cents...

                                  --Josh

                                  On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:17:21 -0400, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...> wrote:
                                  > > > remember I can listen to audio while walking, cycling, driving,
                                  > > > cooking, cleaning, etc. whereas video requires all of my attention. not
                                  > > > many people will watch a 40 minute vogcast because most of us don't
                                  > > > have 40 minutes available.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I believe the average time spent in front of the tv is 4 hours?
                                  >
                                  > see, i think we must put this in context.
                                  > I wouldnt watch a 40 minute videoblog on my computer.
                                  > when im online....i want to MOVE and answer meial and research stuff.
                                  > BUT
                                  > if we can figure out a way to get our videoblogs on TV,
                                  > then its another ballgame.
                                  > when i watch TV, Im the most open Ill be all day.
                                  > Im ready to follow anything.
                                  >
                                  > so i think Adrian and andreas are talking about right
                                  > NOW...videoblogs/vogs/vlogs/vblogs are just a fun way to experiment.
                                  > but some of us are practicing for when we can co-opt the TV experience.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Adrian Miles
                                  ... nah, isn t a videblog then :-) it s community or access tv. blogs don t want to be books or newspapers, neither will videoblgos. if you want a generic
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                                    On 19/10/2004, at 3:17 AM, Jay dedman wrote:

                                    > so i think Adrian and andreas are talking about right
                                    > NOW...videoblogs/vogs/vlogs/vblogs are just a fun way to experiment.
                                    > but some of us are practicing for when we can co-opt the TV experience.

                                    nah, isn't a videblog then :-) it's community or access tv.

                                    blogs don't want to be books or newspapers, neither will videoblgos. if
                                    you want a generic guider, tv advertisements. What compelling story can
                                    you tell in 30 seconds?

                                    cheers
                                    Adrian Miles

                                    +++++++++++++++++++++
                                    http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                                  • Adrian Miles
                                    ... well, i m not a story teller so i m hoping someone else will realise that in QT you can author just like in Flash, and go, whoa, that rocks and make
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                                      On 19/10/2004, at 2:49 AM, Jay dedman wrote:

                                      > See, you and Adrian have spoken of this before.
                                      > and I have seen Adrian's videos where they're interactive...but is
                                      > that it?
                                      > its cool....but im not sure how much better this is from straight up
                                      > storytelling.
                                      > id really like to see more examples of what youre talking about when
                                      > you say "hypermedia nature".

                                      well, i'm not a story teller so i'm hoping someone else will realise
                                      that in QT you can author just like in Flash, and go, "whoa, that
                                      rocks" and make something that all us look at and go, "whoa, now i get
                                      it". I have ideas, I suck at story telling.

                                      >
                                      > sure many of us videobloggers are basically making "TV"....sequential
                                      > images....but its the content that's important.
                                      > maybe we just havent taken enough chances with content.
                                      > everyone's a little shy and learning, figuring out the audience.....

                                      no and no and no :-)
                                      blogs are not newspapers by another name. First big blog paradigm:
                                      personal publishing *systems*. Second big blog paradigm that we're in
                                      the middle of: syndication. This means:
                                      1. bits are small enough to chunk
                                      2. chunks can be rejooined in multiple orders (i link to your post and
                                      your post and your post - to your *posts* not your *blog*).
                                      3. they can be aggregated in any way you can imagine (custom feeds,
                                      custom aggregations)

                                      that's the head space of the network and we need video that fits that
                                      head space.

                                      cheers
                                      Adrian Miles

                                      +++++++++++++++++++++
                                      http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                                    • Adrian Miles
                                      ... yes, but in front of tv we usually: talk read knit cook channel surf with significant rapidity it isn t passive and it is rarely
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Oct 18, 2004
                                        On 19/10/2004, at 2:03 AM, Eric Botticelli wrote:

                                        > I believe the average time spent in front of the tv is 4 hours?
                                        >

                                        yes, but in front of tv we usually:
                                        talk
                                        read
                                        knit
                                        cook
                                        channel surf with significant rapidity
                                        <insert other things...>

                                        it isn't passive and it is rarely concentrated.
                                        I skim blogs and videoblogs, what would the tv equivalent be, or is it
                                        all via TiVo (which we don't have in Australia, but that's another
                                        paranoid story...)

                                        cheers
                                        Adrian Miles

                                        +++++++++++++++++++++
                                        http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/vog/vlog/
                                      • Jay dedman
                                        ... This is really interesting...because what Adrian is saying is really the core of the issue. short and simple is fine...but to me, a videoblog has to mean
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Oct 19, 2004
                                          >> so i think Adrian and andreas are talking about right
                                          >> NOW...videoblogs/vogs/vlogs/vblogs are just a fun way to experiment.
                                          >> but some of us are practicing for when we can co-opt the TV experience.

                                          >nah, isn't a videblog then :-) it's community or access tv.
                                          >blogs don't want to be books or newspapers, neither will videoblgos. if
                                          >you want a generic guider, tv advertisements. What compelling story can
                                          >you tell in 30 seconds?

                                          This is really interesting...because what Adrian is saying is really
                                          the core of the issue.
                                          short and simple is fine...but to me, a videoblog has to mean something.
                                          just like a text blog must give me something.
                                          thats why i love the idea of video comments.
                                          the videos can be very short...but they are part of a conversation.

                                          Id really like to get video comments to work becasue theyre really
                                          arent enough conversations going on.
                                          I end up making each of my videoblogs very self-contained.
                                          difficult to keep it under 30 seconds for it to have any meaning.

                                          "blogs dont want to be newspaper. videoblogs dont want to be TV."
                                          see, here is where I tilt my head.
                                          "Newspaper" and "TV" are just a delivery devices.
                                          what they deliver are Moments and stories.
                                          Moments and Stories are not specific to these devices.
                                          Moments and Stories can be anywhere.
                                          I find them in blogs.
                                          Id like to find them in videoblogs.
                                          Ill sit for 1-3 minutes if its a good Moment or Story.
                                          Storytelling. Momentshowing.
                                          this is ancient stuff we're talking about here.

                                          what text blogs and videoblogs do is not follow any real rules of presentation.
                                          there is no restriction of content.
                                          there is no censorship of voice.
                                          what it also allows is CONVERSATIONS...which newspapers and TV do not.

                                          also, blogs and videoblogs allow anyone on the planet to join the conversation.
                                          videoblogs allow the most powerful access of all: faces and voices.
                                          getting people we never see in here to make videoblogs is very important.
                                          Im not sure how to get these people to join the conversation.

                                          >To me, content is less important.
                                          > I believe there are a million creative people out there who can make
                                          >great videos! That will happen and people will watch if we can make it
                                          >easier to publish and distribute video in this format.

                                          Josh is very correct here....
                                          the developers still need to make the creation and distribution easier
                                          and fuller.
                                          But those of us creating videoblogs need to push the stories and moments.
                                          Be examples.
                                          i think we're past the point of "wow, this is a videoblog".
                                          videobloggers got to stop being shy and push it.
                                          take advantage of the complete freedom we have.
                                        • Eric Botticelli
                                          ... Jay, Videoblogging will make a bigger splash than blogs did a few years ago. Just give it 6-18 months, it really depends on places like ourmedia. People
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Oct 19, 2004
                                            >also, blogs and videoblogs allow anyone on the planet to join the
                                            >conversation.
                                            >videoblogs allow the most powerful access of all: faces and voices.
                                            >getting people we never see in here to make videoblogs is very
                                            >important.
                                            >Im not sure how to get these people to join the conversation.

                                            Jay,
                                            Videoblogging will make a bigger splash than blogs did a few years
                                            ago. Just give it 6-18 months, it really depends on places like
                                            ourmedia. People can sign up for a free text blog, and that's part of
                                            what made it so popular. Even if its not free, creative people will
                                            be drawn to the idea of sharing their work. I am reminded of the
                                            creativity I saw on MNN, and I expect that sort of thing to come over
                                            to the net... we'll be able to go to communityvideos.whatever and get
                                            a list of the 100 newest videos that have been given a thumbs up by
                                            the site's moderators. And if the moderators don't know good video,
                                            there will be many other "stations" to choose from. It will happen.
                                            The only thing I'm worried about is the government stepping in and
                                            regulating the internet and having a similar fate as Radio and
                                            Television... ugh.
                                            Just keep in mind that wide-spread resistance is imperitive if
                                            something happens. For example, if the Big Cable Internet Providers
                                            decide to limit our uploads to something like 20 dollars per 20mb over
                                            the 20mb monthly limit. What are we going to do? I think to
                                            understand how not to get fucked over we've got to understand how
                                            cable internet works. In my neighborhood, pretty much everyone who
                                            wants cable internet has to go through 1 company: Cablevision
                                            (Optimum Online).
                                            Cablevision was the same company that cut my access to Comedy Central
                                            about 8 years ago (they brought it back a few years after dropping it)
                                            -- when they dropped it my family switched to satalite in protest.

                                            Yes, I'm being paranoid, as there are no signs I can see of Impending
                                            Doom. But the history of the media should be enough to cause alarm.
                                            The People's access to communication have been effectively cut off
                                            tree times before (newspapers/radio/tv); I really don't want it
                                            happening to this beautiful medium. Also, it's a lot easier to hold
                                            on to what we've got today than for our kids to try to wrestle it free
                                            60 years from now.
                                          • Christopher Weagel
                                            eric you re not paranoid. I share your fears. We have to hold onto this. Chris
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Oct 19, 2004
                                              eric

                                              you're not paranoid.
                                              I share your fears.

                                              We have to hold onto this.

                                              Chris



                                              On Oct 19, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Eric Botticelli wrote:

                                              >
                                              > >also, blogs and videoblogs allow anyone on the planet to join the
                                              > >conversation.
                                              > >videoblogs allow the most powerful access of all: faces and voices.
                                              > >getting people we never see in here to make videoblogs is very
                                              > >important.
                                              > >Im not sure how to get these people to join the conversation.
                                              >
                                              > Jay,
                                              > Videoblogging will make a bigger splash than blogs did a few years
                                              > ago.  Just give it 6-18 months, it really depends on places like
                                              > ourmedia.  People can sign up for a free text blog, and that's part of
                                              > what made it so popular.  Even if its not free, creative people will
                                              > be drawn to the idea of sharing their work.  I am reminded of the
                                              > creativity I saw on MNN, and I expect that sort of thing to come over
                                              > to the net... we'll be able to go to communityvideos.whatever and get
                                              > a list of the 100 newest videos that have been given a thumbs up by
                                              > the site's moderators.  And if the moderators don't know good video,
                                              > there will be many other "stations" to choose from.  It will happen.
                                              > The only thing I'm worried about is the government stepping in and
                                              > regulating the internet and having a similar fate as Radio and
                                              > Television... ugh.
                                              > Just keep in mind that wide-spread resistance is imperitive if
                                              > something happens.  For example, if the Big Cable Internet Providers
                                              > decide to limit our uploads to something like 20 dollars per 20mb over
                                              > the 20mb monthly limit.  What are we going to do?  I think to
                                              > understand how not to get fucked over we've got to understand how
                                              > cable internet works.  In my neighborhood, pretty much everyone who
                                              > wants cable internet has to go through 1 company:  Cablevision
                                              > (Optimum Online).
                                              > Cablevision was the same company that cut my access to Comedy Central
                                              > about 8 years ago (they brought it back a few years after dropping it)
                                              > -- when they dropped it my family switched to satalite in protest.
                                              >
                                              > Yes, I'm being paranoid, as there are no signs I can see of Impending
                                              > Doom.  But the history of the media should be enough to cause alarm.
                                              > The People's access to communication have been effectively cut off
                                              > tree times before (newspapers/radio/tv); I really don't want it
                                              > happening to this beautiful medium.  Also, it's a lot easier to hold
                                              > on to what we've got today than for our kids to try to wrestle it free
                                              > 60 years from now.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                              >
                                              > ADVERTISEMENT
                                              > <f2_free2_300x250_def_0904.gif>
                                              > <image.tiff>
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/
                                              >  
                                              > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > videoblogging-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >  
                                              > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                              > Service.
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Lisa Harper
                                              This gets to the heart of what s different. Both kinds of video are a kind of discourse. But commentary or story-telling is very different from conversational
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Oct 19, 2004
                                                This gets to the heart of what's different. Both kinds of video are a
                                                kind of discourse. But commentary or story-telling is very different
                                                from conversational discourse. Conversation generally involves two
                                                people or more and is indicated by information exchange in a topical
                                                manner. But in much smaller chunks than commentary (which also implies
                                                some sort of audience participant).

                                                Plus, one of the great things about vlogging is that it can be mixed
                                                or multimodal in terms of combining textual elements with video.
                                                Lisa


                                                On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:47:46 -0400, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >> so i think Adrian and andreas are talking about right
                                                > >> NOW...videoblogs/vogs/vlogs/vblogs are just a fun way to experiment.
                                                > >> but some of us are practicing for when we can co-opt the TV experience.
                                                >
                                                > >nah, isn't a videblog then :-) it's community or access tv.
                                                > >blogs don't want to be books or newspapers, neither will videoblgos. if
                                                > >you want a generic guider, tv advertisements. What compelling story can
                                                > >you tell in 30 seconds?
                                                >
                                                > This is really interesting...because what Adrian is saying is really
                                                > the core of the issue.
                                                > short and simple is fine...but to me, a videoblog has to mean something.
                                                > just like a text blog must give me something.
                                                > thats why i love the idea of video comments.
                                                > the videos can be very short...but they are part of a conversation.
                                                >
                                                > Id really like to get video comments to work becasue theyre really
                                                > arent enough conversations going on.
                                                > I end up making each of my videoblogs very self-contained.
                                                > difficult to keep it under 30 seconds for it to have any meaning.
                                                >
                                                > "blogs dont want to be newspaper. videoblogs dont want to be TV."
                                                > see, here is where I tilt my head.
                                                > "Newspaper" and "TV" are just a delivery devices.
                                                > what they deliver are Moments and stories.
                                                > Moments and Stories are not specific to these devices.
                                                > Moments and Stories can be anywhere.
                                                > I find them in blogs.
                                                > Id like to find them in videoblogs.
                                                > Ill sit for 1-3 minutes if its a good Moment or Story.
                                                > Storytelling. Momentshowing.
                                                > this is ancient stuff we're talking about here.
                                                >
                                                > what text blogs and videoblogs do is not follow any real rules of presentation.
                                                > there is no restriction of content.
                                                > there is no censorship of voice.
                                                > what it also allows is CONVERSATIONS...which newspapers and TV do not.
                                                >
                                                > also, blogs and videoblogs allow anyone on the planet to join the conversation.
                                                > videoblogs allow the most powerful access of all: faces and voices.
                                                > getting people we never see in here to make videoblogs is very important.
                                                > Im not sure how to get these people to join the conversation.
                                                >
                                                > >To me, content is less important.
                                                > > I believe there are a million creative people out there who can make
                                                > >great videos! That will happen and people will watch if we can make it
                                                > >easier to publish and distribute video in this format.
                                                >
                                                > Josh is very correct here....
                                                > the developers still need to make the creation and distribution easier
                                                > and fuller.
                                                > But those of us creating videoblogs need to push the stories and moments.
                                                > Be examples.
                                                > i think we're past the point of "wow, this is a videoblog".
                                                > videobloggers got to stop being shy and push it.
                                                > take advantage of the complete freedom we have.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                --
                                                Lisa Harper
                                                http://www.lisaharper.org
                                              • Jay dedman
                                                ... see, this sounds like academic talk. i need to see more examples of this kind of videoblogging. if it works, il use it and make it and post it. until then,
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Oct 19, 2004
                                                  > Plus, one of the great things about vlogging is that it can be mixed
                                                  > or multimodal in terms of combining textual elements with video.

                                                  see, this sounds like academic talk.
                                                  i need to see more examples of this kind of videoblogging.
                                                  if it works, il use it and make it and post it.
                                                  until then, its just good for tech articles and graduate thesis(pl).
                                                • Lisa Harper
                                                  Well I guess it would be easy to make something very complex of this... but I really just mean the sort of thing many of us try to do in our blogs by using
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Oct 20, 2004
                                                    Well I guess it would be easy to make something very complex of
                                                    this... but I really just mean the sort of thing many of us try to do
                                                    in our blogs by using small clips of video to elaborate on content in
                                                    text (or vice-versa). The message is contained in the combination of
                                                    video and text.
                                                    Lisa


                                                    On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:30:58 -0400, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > Plus, one of the great things about vlogging is that it can be mixed
                                                    > > or multimodal in terms of combining textual elements with video.
                                                    >
                                                    > see, this sounds like academic talk.
                                                    > i need to see more examples of this kind of videoblogging.
                                                    > if it works, il use it and make it and post it.
                                                    > until then, its just good for tech articles and graduate thesis(pl).
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >


                                                    --
                                                    Lisa Harper
                                                    http://www.lisaharper.org
                                                  • Jay dedman
                                                    ... true enough. dont mean to be aggressive... its all good. we all videoblog in a different way. as long as we re posting. examples are the best way to learn.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Oct 20, 2004
                                                      > Well I guess it would be easy to make something very complex of
                                                      > this... but I really just mean the sort of thing many of us try to do
                                                      > in our blogs by using small clips of video to elaborate on content in
                                                      > text (or vice-versa). The message is contained in the combination of
                                                      > video and text.

                                                      true enough.
                                                      dont mean to be aggressive...
                                                      its all good.
                                                      we all videoblog in a different way.
                                                      as long as we're posting.
                                                      examples are the best way to learn.
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