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Re: [vedic-astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

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  • Narasimha P.V.R. Rao
    Namaste Pushya, I am away from the lists. If anybody has something urgent that needs my attention, they should cc the mail to me. Sanjay, thank you for
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 8, 2005
      Namaste Pushya,

      I am away from the lists. If anybody has something urgent that needs my
      attention, they should cc the mail to me. Sanjay, thank you for forwarding
      the mail to me!

      The Swiss Ephemeris positions you gave must have been computed using
      "apparent" positions instead of "true" positions. In JHora, select
      "Preferences", then "Related to calculations" and then "Planet Calculation
      Options". In JHora, default is "true" positions. So you are comparing apples
      to oranges. If you want to compare apples to apples, please change the JHora
      option to use apparent positions (though I recommend true positions).

      If you change the option and do a comparison, you will no longer have upto
      30 arc-sec differences that you showed below. The differences will be more
      or less uniform and will be slightly less than 2 arc-sec.

      Apart from small differences in rounding, that 2 arc-sec difference is
      largely due to differences in ayanamsa calculation. I use Swiss Ephemeris
      only for tropical planetary positions and do not use their sidereal
      calculations. I use my own module to compute the ayanamsa. There is a small
      difference between what they do and what I do.

      The original Lahiri ayanamsa was linear - it assumed a fixed rate of
      precession. However, linear ayanamsa is not correct. Science does not know
      the correct ayanamsa, but we do know the correct model for the changes in
      ayanamsa with time (given the initial ayanamsa on a particular date and
      time). So I use the non-linear model. I am assuming that Swiss Ephemeris
      uses the original linear Lahiri ayanamsa OR, more likely, they use the
      correct non-linear model, but use a slightly different seed. In other words,
      they and I may have converted the linear ayanamsa into a non-linear one in a
      slightly different way. When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we
      take the star position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date given by
      Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for some specific date
      (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct? We can't honor all of them and have to
      honor only one of them. If you assume a linear ayanamsa change rate as
      Lahiri originally did, all of them can be honored. But, when we
      non-linearize it, we have to choose one of them, honor it and deviate in the
      others.

      In any case, I will investigate this further and correct any errors in my
      software or give new options if I deem them appropriate.

      On a separate note, some people have been asking me to allow linear
      ayanamsas. For example, Yukteshwar ayanamsa uses a fixed rate of precession
      change that is factually known to be wrong. However, it looks like some
      people want to stick to it. In future, I will add support for some linear
      ayanamsas also (though they are definitely wrong).

      I hope this answers your question. But, by using the same setting for
      apparent/true positions in both softwares, you can considerably reduce the
      mismatches.

      Sanjay, you can rely on JHora for your ardha-nadi work, but please realize
      that there are several options and make sure that you set them correctly. If
      you have the patience to try all permutations and combinations, please try
      them all and draw your own conclusions. Otherwise, I will suggest setting
      "geocentric" positions, "true" positions and "mean" nodes in the "Planet
      Calculation Options". However, I am not sure if Lahiri ayanamsa is fully
      correct. Above, we were talking about deviations of 1-2 arc-sec between
      softwares. But I am of the opinion that the Lahiri ayanamsa may be off by
      1-2 arc-MIN. As this is comparable to the ardha-nadi size, your research
      cannot be done without fixing the ayanamsa perfectly!

      May Jupiter's light shine on us,
      Narasimha

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Sanjay Rath" <guruji@...>
      To: <vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@...>
      Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:35 AM
      Subject: [vedic-astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris


      > Jaya Jagannatha
      > Dear Narasimha
      > PLEASE Look at this. I RELY on JHora completely and am working on ardha
      > nadi
      > amsa!
      > With best wishes and warm regards,
      > Sanjay Rath
      > * * *
      > Sri Jagannath CenterR
      > 15B Gangaram Hospital Road
      > New Delhi 110060, India
      > http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162
      > * * *
      >
      >
      >>-----Original Message-----
      >>From: pushya [mailto:pushya@...]
      >>Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:57 AM
      >>To: vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com
      >>Subject: ** SPAM ** [vedic-astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris
      >>
      >>Dear Members,
      >>
      >>I have some questions regarding Jhora 7.02 (full 57 mb version) :
      >>
      >>Why is there a difference in arc seconds/minute between Jhora
      >>7.02 and Swiss Ephemeris ?
      >>
      >>Using planetary positions on 1st of Jan 2005, 00:00 hr, GMT
      >>+00:00, Lahiri, as an example :
      >>
      >>
      >>Jhora = Sun 16:44:50.83
      >>Swiss = Sun 16:44:28.6793
      >>
      >>Jhora = Moon 15:22:12.37
      >>Swiss = Moon 15:22:09.7656
      >>
      >>Jhora = Mars 10:26:02.53
      >>Swiss = Mars 10:25:29.0106
      >>
      >>Jhora = Mercury 24:29:01.41
      >>Swiss = Mercury 24:28:35.4791
      >>
      >>Jhora = Jupiter 23:21:58.32
      >>Swiss = Jupiter 23:21:46.2340
      >>
      >>Jhora = Venus 25:11:12.33
      >>Swiss = Venus 25:10:30.8806
      >>
      >>Jhora = Saturn 01:00:07.95
      >>Swiss = Saturn 01:00:19.9033
      >>
      >>
      >>Correct me if I am wrong, both software is using exactly the same
      >>ephemeris file "sepl_18.se1" to generate these planetary positions.
      >>
      >>If that is the case, shouldn't the figures be exactly the same or at
      >>least the same after rounding off the arc second decimal places ?
      >>
      >>This is not an attempt to put Jhora in bad light, but a serious
      >>desire to find out why the difference in the figures.
      >>
      >>I use Jhora frequently and I am very grateful to Narasimha for not
      >>only releasing such a fine software free of charge but also uploading
      >>the full 57 mb version for the public to download.
      >>
      >>Thanks in advance to any reply to my above-mentioned queries.
      >>
      >>
      >>Best Wishes,
      >>Pushya
    • pushya
      Dear Sanjay, Narasimha and Ajit, Thank you for taking the time and effort to reply my query. Narasimha, thanks for your very clear explanation. It is truly an
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 8, 2005
        Dear Sanjay, Narasimha and Ajit,
         
        Thank you for taking the time and effort to reply my query.
         
        Narasimha, thanks for your very clear explanation. It is truly an eye-opener for me. I will devote time to research on this concept of linear and non-linear ayanamsha.
         
        Personally, the reply to this query is not urgent to me. That is why I sent it to your yahoogroup instead of to you directly.
         
        Sorry to disturb you from your writing of the highly anticipated TP book. Hopefully, your TP book have a ebook version which upon online payment can be downloaded and read immediately. Very impressed with your confidence in TP as shown in your solving of the marriage puzzle in your lesson 42.
         
        Once again, thank you everyone for your time and effort.
         
        Best Wishes,
        Pushya
      • Sanjay Rath
        Jaya Jagannatha Dear Narasimha OK your point is made. We had also discussed this some time back and from next year shall start addresing the vexed ayanamsa
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 8, 2005

          Jaya Jagannatha
          Dear Narasimha
          OK your point is made. We had also discussed this some time back and from next year shall start addresing the vexed ayanamsa issue so that we can at least try to settle it to whatever extent possible.
          The options I have been using are -
          1. Geocentric positions
          2. True positions for planets
          3. Mean nodes [still cannot understand why some people use true nodes ignoring Parasara and Jaimini's teaching of constant Rahu retrogression which is also confirmed in Prasna Marga rahu-sun-moon chakra and Jataka Parijatha]
          4. Thanks for the poit on the need to tinker with the Lahiri Ayanamsa by 1-2 arc-min
          Here is some point for you to consider in future
          Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti
          Krishnamurti, Jiddu
          Date:          May 12, 1895
          Time:          12:23:30 am
          Time Zone:     5:30:00 (East of GMT)
          Place:         78 E 30' 00", 13 N 33' 00"
                         Madanapalle, India
          Lagna in Swadhaa nadiamsa and Saturn exalted [male birth confirmation] is the ardha nadiamsa ruler confirming his beliefs on guru-shisya concept and his rejection of father [Saturn opposite Sun], his concept on total freedom [exalted in Libra and retro] etc. Now this can get altered if the *Custom Ayanamsa* is more than lahiri ayanamsa by 1m47sec to Venus which is completely wrong. So the upper limit of change is 1m46s > Lahiri > 2m0s ...........[A]

          Case-2: Dr B V Raman
          Raman, Bangalore Venkata
          Date:          August 8, 1912
          Time:          7:43:00 pm
          Time Zone:     5:30:00 (East of GMT)
          Place:         77 E 35' 00", 12 N 59' 00"
          Lagna in Navanita nadiamsa and Sun in Cancer [male birth confirmation] is the ardha nadiamsa ruler confirming his indept study as a jyotishi etc. Themodification does not occur if the change of *custom ayanamsa is within 2m0s >Lahiri> 1m57s...[B]
          Taking A & B we have the range of 1m46s > Lahiri > 1m57s

          Lot more cases have to be done before we can arrive at the exact ayanamsa.
          I fully support your stand on the non-linear ayanamsa as this is closer to the truth and the liear ayanamsa has to be rejected sooner or later by all as it is a hangover of the past. As the worlds mathematical knowledge improves, astrologers must grow to benefit from it. Now come to the three options -
          You state:

          >When we non-linearize
          Lahiri ayanamsa, should we take the star
          >position as sacrosant or the
          zero ayanamsa date given by
          >Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value
          given for some
          >specific date (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct?

          1. Taking the star position to be sacrosanct - this is the chitra paksha definition and should be recommended by us (SJC) based on the first day of every century i.e. 1 Jan 1900 at midnight in Ujjain and 1 Jan 2000 etc and non-linear ayanamsa progression.
          2. Zero ayanamsa date given by Lahiri - this should be called Lahiri Non-linear ayanamsa
          3. There should be an option for Lahiri linear ayanamsa [we can never recommend this] for those who cannot understand why.
          4. Forget any magic dates.

          Add these options only when you have the time after the TP book. Now I have done some work recently on a chart using the sixth level of the Vimsottari dasa to prove to him that it works. Hari was visiting and here was my detailed reading.
          Here are some extracts. Hari can copy the various mails he has been writing to Visti and others on this.
          ----------------

          I can't recollect what Sanjay did with the rasi & navamsa as I was talking simultaneously with Sarbani at that time but nevertheless here is the table of events with comments by Sanjay that may help you to understand what Sanjay did with the rasi and navamsa.

          Präëa antardaçä

          Deha antardaçä

          Reading of situation

          Ra

          Me

          Left home to travel by flight in northern direction from Mumbai to Delhi

           

          Ke

          Flight delayed due to technical reason

           

          Ve

          Flight took off for Delhi

           

          Mo

          Work of proof reading book given by Sanjay

          Ju

          Ju

          Discussions with Sarbani, Freedom & Sanjay

           

          Sa

          Very tired, went to sleep

           

          Ke

          Woke up but did not get up from bed*

           

          Ve

          Got up finally, attended interview

           

          Mo

          Ate food but did not like it, offer of job and reimbursement of travel allowance (in FULL due to breaking of sakata yoga causing mukuta yoga)

           

          Ma/Ra

          Discussions with Sarbani/Freedom/Sanjay

          Sa

          Sa

          Left Gangaram hospital road residence to travel in west direction back to Mumbai. No boarding pass issued but after some time, issued boarding pass in first class although ticket was economy class

          Data for use is:

          Hari (rectified Sanjay Rath)

          Natal Chart

          Date:          September 28, 1971
          Time:          11:02:21
          Time Zone:     5:30:00 (East of GMT)
          Place:         80 E 14' 00", 13 N 02' 00"
                         Chennai Thyagarayanagar, India
          Lahiri ayanamsa and apparent time of sunrise
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          Rath: * things like this were read from the rasi and navamsa using sixth level of vimsottari dasa to correct the time. He actually confirmed this later. The point is that this does not match the ardha nadiamsa of Saturn which is totally incorrect and the correct ardha nadiamsa ruler should be Venus which is (1)  debilitated (F) conjoined (2) Sun (M) and (3) exalted (M) Mercury (M) to indicate a male  [3M 1F] male birth.

          Now what we need is the exact ayanamsa which gives this level of vimsottari dasa as indicated above and also Venus as the ardha nadiamsa ruler.
          With best wishes and warm regards,
          Sanjay Rath
          * * *
          Sri Jagannath Center®
          15B Gangaram Hospital Road
          New Delhi 110060, India
          http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162
          * * *



          >-----Original
          Message-----
          >From: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [
          href="mailto:pvr@...">mailto:pvr@...]
          >Sent: Thursday,
          June 09, 2005 6:07 AM
          >To: Sanjay Rath;
          vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com
          >Cc: Ajit Krishnan; pushya
          >Subject:
          Re: [vedic-astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris
          >
          >Namaste
          Pushya,
          >
          >I am away from the lists. If anybody has something urgent
          that
          >needs my attention, they should cc the mail to me.
          Sanjay,
          >thank you for forwarding the mail to me!
          >
          >The Swiss
          Ephemeris positions you gave must have been computed
          >using "apparent"
          positions instead of "true" positions. In
          >JHora, select "Preferences",
          then "Related to calculations"
          >and then "Planet Calculation Options". In
          JHora, default is
          >"true" positions. So you are comparing apples to
          oranges. If
          >you want to compare apples to apples, please change the
          JHora
          >option to use apparent positions (though I recommend true
          positions).
          >
          >If you change the option and do a comparison, you
          will no
          >longer have upto 30 arc-sec differences that you showed
          below.
          >The differences will be more or less uniform and will
          be
          >slightly less than 2 arc-sec.
          >
          >Apart from small
          differences in rounding, that 2 arc-sec
          >difference is largely due to
          differences in ayanamsa
          >calculation. I use Swiss Ephemeris only for
          tropical planetary
          >positions and do not use their sidereal calculations.
          I use my
          >own module to compute the ayanamsa. There is a
          small
          >difference between what they do and what I do.
          >
          >The
          original Lahiri ayanamsa was linear - it assumed a fixed
          >rate of
          precession. However, linear ayanamsa is not correct.
          >Science does not
          know the correct ayanamsa, but we do know the
          >correct model for the
          changes in ayanamsa with time (given the
          >initial ayanamsa on a particular
          date and time). So I use the
          >non-linear model. I am assuming that Swiss
          Ephemeris uses the
          >original linear Lahiri ayanamsa OR, more likely, they
          use the
          >correct non-linear model, but use a slightly different
          seed.
          >In other words, they and I may have converted the
          linear
          >ayanamsa into a non-linear one in a slightly different
          way.
          >When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we take the
          star
          >position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date given
          by
          >Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for
          some
          >specific date (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct? We can't
          honor
          >all of them and have to honor only one of them. If you
          assume
          >a linear ayanamsa change rate as Lahiri originally did, all
          of
          >them can be honored. But, when we non-linearize it, we have
          to
          >choose one of them, honor it and deviate in the
          others.
          >
          >In any case, I will investigate this further and correct
          any
          >errors in my software or give new options if I deem them
          appropriate.
          >
          >On a separate note, some people have been asking me
          to allow
          >linear ayanamsas. For example, Yukteshwar ayanamsa uses
          a
          >fixed rate of precession change that is factually known to
          be
          >wrong. However, it looks like some people want to stick to
          it.
          >In future, I will add support for some linear ayanamsas
          also
          >(though they are definitely wrong).
          >
          >I hope this
          answers your question. But, by using the same
          >setting for apparent/true
          positions in both softwares, you can
          >considerably reduce the
          mismatches.
          >
          >Sanjay, you can rely on JHora for your ardha-nadi
          work, but
          >please realize that there are several options and make
          sure
          >that you set them correctly. If you have the patience to
          try
          >all permutations and combinations, please try them all
          and
          >draw your own conclusions. Otherwise, I will suggest
          setting
          >"geocentric" positions, "true" positions and "mean" nodes
          in
          >the "Planet Calculation Options". However, I am not sure
          if
          >Lahiri ayanamsa is fully correct. Above, we were talking
          about
          >deviations of 1-2 arc-sec between softwares. But I am of
          the
          >opinion that the Lahiri ayanamsa may be off by
          >1-2 arc-MIN. As
          this is comparable to the ardha-nadi size,
          >your research cannot be done
          without fixing the ayanamsa perfectly!
          >
          >May Jupiter's light shine
          on us,
          >Narasimha
          >
          >----- Original Message -----
          >From:
          "Sanjay Rath" <guruji@...>
          >To:
          <vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com>
          >Cc: "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao"
          <pvr@...>
          >Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:35
          AM
          >Subject: [vedic-astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss
          Ephemeris
          >
          >
          >> Jaya Jagannatha
          >> Dear
          Narasimha
          >> PLEASE Look at this. I RELY on JHora completely and
          am
          >working on ardha
          >> nadi
          >> amsa!
          >> With
          best wishes and warm regards,
          >> Sanjay Rath
          >> * *
          *
          >> Sri Jagannath CenterR
          >> 15B Gangaram Hospital
          Road
          >> New Delhi 110060, India
          >>
          href="http://srath.com">http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162
          >> * *
          *
          >>
          >>
          >>>-----Original
          Message-----
          >>>From: pushya [
          href="mailto:pushya@...">mailto:pushya@...]
          >>>Sent:
          Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:57 AM
          >>>To:
          vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com
          >>>Subject: ** SPAM **
          [vedic-astrology] Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris
          >>>
          >>>Dear
          Members,
          >>>
          >>>I have some questions regarding Jhora
          7.02 (full 57 mb version) :
          >>>
          >>>Why is there a
          difference in arc seconds/minute between Jhora
          >>>7.02 and Swiss
          Ephemeris ?
          >>>
          >>>Using planetary positions on 1st of
          Jan 2005, 00:00 hr, GMT
          >>>+00:00, Lahiri, as an example
          :
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Sun
          16:44:50.83
          >>>Swiss = Sun
          16:44:28.6793
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Moon
          15:22:12.37
          >>>Swiss = Moon
          15:22:09.7656
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Mars
          10:26:02.53
          >>>Swiss = Mars
          10:25:29.0106
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Mercury
          24:29:01.41
          >>>Swiss = Mercury
          24:28:35.4791
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Jupiter
          23:21:58.32
          >>>Swiss = Jupiter
          23:21:46.2340
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Venus
          25:11:12.33
          >>>Swiss = Venus
          25:10:30.8806
          >>>
          >>>Jhora = Saturn
          01:00:07.95
          >>>Swiss = Saturn
          01:00:19.9033
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>Correct me if I am
          wrong, both software is using exactly the same
          >>>ephemeris file
          "sepl_18.se1" to generate these planetary positions.
          >>>
          >>>If that is the case, shouldn't the
          figures be exactly the same or at
          >>>least the same after rounding
          off the arc second decimal places ?
          >>>
          >>>This is not
          an attempt to put Jhora in bad light, but a serious
          >>>desire to
          find out why the difference in the figures.
          >>>
          >>>I use
          Jhora frequently and I am very grateful to Narasimha for not
          >>>only
          releasing such a fine software free of charge but also uploading
          >>>the full 57 mb version for the public to
          download.
          >>>
          >>>Thanks in advance to any reply to my
          above-mentioned queries.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>Best
          Wishes,
          >>>Pushya
          >
          >
          >

        • Dhira Krsna BCS
          Dear Sanjay Rath, HAre Rama Krsna! What does the nadiamsa ruler become for these 2 charts with an ayanamsa of 47 min 6sec less than Lahiri? Doesn t birthtime
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 10, 2005
            Dear Sanjay Rath,

            HAre Rama Krsna!

            What does the nadiamsa ruler become for these 2 charts with an ayanamsa of
            47 min 6sec less than Lahiri? Doesn't birthtime have to be super accurate
            for this kind of calculation and who in the world can provide such
            accurate birthtime? As such it would be rather a system of rectification,
            more than a prediction tool. Correct me if I'm wrong.

            >Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti
            >Case-2: Dr B V Raman

            Yours,
            Dhira Krsna dasa,

            web site: <http://www.geocities.com/dvdd1008/Jyotisha.html>
            <http://srijagannath.org/learning>
          • sanjayprabhakaran
            ... Dear Dhira Krishan Prabhu, Namaste, I think it should be part of both noting accurate time and some rectification will be involved here. Since Nadi
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 13, 2005
              || Om Gurave Namah ||
              Dear Dhira Krishan Prabhu,
              Namaste,
              I think it should be part of both noting accurate time and some
              rectification will be involved here. Since Nadi techniques was in use
              way before modern clocks I also think there could be some other
              techniques to work out these charts. Lets see what Guruji Sanjay Rath
              has to tell about these techniques.

              Warm Regards
              Sanjay P

              Hare Rama Krishna


              --- In vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com, "Dhira Krsna BCS"
              <Dhira.Krsna.BCS@p...> wrote:
              > Dear Sanjay Rath,
              >
              > HAre Rama Krsna!
              >
              > What does the nadiamsa ruler become for these 2 charts with an
              ayanamsa of
              > 47 min 6sec less than Lahiri? Doesn't birthtime have to be super
              accurate
              > for this kind of calculation and who in the world can provide such
              > accurate birthtime? As such it would be rather a system of
              rectification,
              > more than a prediction tool. Correct me if I'm wrong.
              >
              > >Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti
              > >Case-2: Dr B V Raman
              >
              > Yours,
              > Dhira Krsna dasa,
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