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Re: [vacpot] Re: Filtron cold water coffee extractor

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  • Ian Bersten
    Hello Ian Thank you for forwarding your inquiry, we are happy to help answer these questions. Our laboratory is certified by the Specialty Coffee Association
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 2, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Ian

      Thank you for forwarding your inquiry, we are happy to help answer these
      questions.

      Our laboratory is certified by the Specialty Coffee Association of
      America as a teaching laboratory and confirmed to follow all SCAA
      standards and protocols. Our staff is made up of experienced and
      educated coffee industry professionals who each have earned coffee
      industry certifications and licenses. The laboratory does not certify
      products on behalf of the SCAA.

      The Golden Cup Standard, which is used by the SCAA to measure the brew
      solids and extraction percentages is a measurement calculated by the
      specific details and measurements of the water, coffee grind, dosage and
      brewing process. Golden Cups is a measured relationship between the
      coffee dosage, grind particle size, and water quantity producing a
      beverage between 18% and 22% extraction from the coffee and 1150 TDS to
      1350 TDS in the beverage. The recipe for brewing (brewing ration) is
      flexible and can be increased or decreased based on the brewing
      equipment or beverage preparation size.

      Sensory evaluations are not part of the SCAA Golden Cup Standards; these
      tests are independent and were conducted by a trained sensory panel.

      The report provided showed both the extraction details and sensory scores.

      The writer is correct that coffee items can be manipulated to perform
      well using Golden Cup Standards; however this does not mean that the
      coffee will be enjoyed for flavor and aroma attributes. This is the
      reason why both tests were completed.

      Please let me know if you have any additional questions or concerns.

      Spencer Turer

      Coffee Analysts

      On 2/08/2013 5:08 PM, Dave Bellware wrote:
      > Here is a link to the SCAA Gold Standard certification, which you'll see
      > contains zero references to sensory evaluation, and which contains the
      > minimum and maximum amounts of coffee that are permitted. 35% less is well
      > outside of what is permitted to qualify.
      >
      > http://www.scaa.org/PDF/2010/Golden%20Cup%20Informaton%20and%20Application_April2010_v2.pdf
      >
      >
      > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:59 AM, Dave Bellware <bigbells@...> wrote:
      >
      >> A laboratory approved by whom? SCAA does not use a Sensory Scale in its
      >> Gold Cup Standard, so any and all such references are irrelevant as far as
      >> meeting the Standard. The measurements made for Gold Cup relate solely to
      >> the amount of coffee extracted, from a mandated amount which you did not
      >> meet to begin with. I can extract the approved percentage using 90% less
      >> coffee, but I wouldn't like the taste of it. SCAA does not approve coffees,
      >> it approves preparation methods. I think the lab has hoodwinked somebody.
      >>
      >> Dave Bellware
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Ian Bersten <ian@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>> **
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Excuse me. The results were provided by an approved laboratory.
      >>>
      >>> *Evaluation of Brewing Method & Roasted Coffee Content comparing the
      >>> CHAICOFFSKI,*
      >>>
      >>> *a NEW way to brew coffee with some other methods*
      >>>
      >>> All results were based on the use of the same blend of coffee
      >>>
      >>> **
      >>>
      >>> *CONCLUSIONS:*
      >>>
      >>> All methods produced cups in the mid-range of Usual Good Quality for
      >>> Sensory Scale
      >>>
      >>> Chaicoffski 1 was almost within Golden Cup Standard. A brew time of
      >>> anotherhalf second would have improved results sufficiently to qualify
      >>>
      >>> The Hario V-60 took more than five times as long to brew as the
      >>> Chaicoffski 1
      >>>
      >>> The Aeropress used 250% more coffee and brewed for 33% longer than the
      >>> Chaicoffski 1
      >>>
      >>> The Bodum Press took *EIGHT* times as long to brew and used 50% more
      >>> coffee than Chaicoffski 1 -- 40 grams/liter and 30 seconds
      >>>
      >>> All seven methods provided different flavour analysis.
      >>>
      >>> There was a tiny improvement in Sensory score by raising the Chaicoffski
      >>> brewing time from 30 to 45 seconds
      >>>
      >>> *Using the Chaicoffski 1 -- 40 grams per liter and 30 seconds brew time
      >>> gives similar quality -- less time -- less coffee -- easier to prepare,
      >>> no paper filters or standing and pouring*
      >>>
      >>> All quantitative and sensorial data was provided by an independent
      >>> laboratory specializing in coffee approved by the SCAA.
      >>>
      >>> Copyright Chaicoffski Pty. Ltd.Sydney Australia 2013
      >>>
      >>> It is true that the results confirm what I am saying about the
      >>> Chaicoffski filter but I never mentioned the name on this site and there
      >>> was no intent in supplying the facts that I did, that I was trying to
      >>> sell the filter to members of this site.
      >>>
      >>> I do not appreciate ad hominem attacks
      >>>
      >>> The claims I made above are true.
      >>>
      >>> Ian Bersten
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> On 2/08/2013 4:08 PM, Dave Bellware wrote:
      >>>> By definition, the qualification standards for Gold Cup simply does not
      >>>> allow a reduction of 35% in the amount of coffee used. The claim you
      >>> make
      >>>> is therefore provably incorrect. The maximum permissible reduction in
      >>>> coffee amount is 23%, since the minimum amount that can be used is 92
      >>> grams
      >>>> and the maximum amount that can be used is 120 grams for the Gold Cup
      >>>> standard.
      >>>>
      >>>> However, when I clicked the link you provided, I see that you're selling
      >>>> your own product, which leads me to believe that the facts might not be
      >>>> your highest priority. I am not disparaging your filter, just the claims
      >>>> you make about it.
      >>>>
      >>>> Dave Bellware
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Ian Bersten <ian@...> wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>> **
      >>>>>
      >>>>> There is an enormous difference between making Turkish coffee where
      >>> heat
      >>>>> is applied to boiling the coffee and pouring boiling water over coffee.
      >>>>> The latter never gets bitter until you apply more heat.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Yes there is a difference between coffee steeped for longer times but
      >>>>> the major factor is the grind particle size.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> I have had tests done by an approved lab that proves that you can get
      >>>>> SCAA Goldcup standard with espresso grind coffee brewed for 30 seconds
      >>>>> using 35% less coffee. Other methodds using coarser grind coffee need
      >>>>> 50% more coffee and longer - up to eight times - brewing time.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> You are right - every combination of time, temperature and particle
      >>> size
      >>>>> makes a different flavour BUT the cold drip produces results that are
      >>>>> lower in dissolved solids.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Try making a stew with cold water.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> happy brewing
      >>>>>
      >>>>> ian
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> On 2/08/2013 3:19 PM, Dave Bellware wrote:
      >>>>>> What my experiments with cold brewing have proved to me is that no
      >>> matter
      >>>>>> how much I think I know about coffee and coffee preparation, the book
      >>> is
      >>>>> by
      >>>>>> no means closed. As for the inefficiency of large particle size and
      >>> the
      >>>>>> resultant smaller surface area, the greatly increased steep time of
      >>> cold
      >>>>>> brewing negates much of that inefficiency, in my opinion. I've known
      >>> that
      >>>>>> from comparing short-steeped, finely ground vacuum brews to much
      >>>>>> longer-steeped drip brews with coffee that's much more coarsely
      >>> ground.
      >>>>>> Both are great but they are not the same.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> I can't remember where I saw it, but I've seen a chart that made some
      >>>>>> effort to graph the effects of steep time against particle size of the
      >>>>>> coffee.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> The point at which my thinking gets roadblocked is when I start to
      >>> think
      >>>>>> that the finest possible grind, such as a true Turkish grind, should
      >>> or
      >>>>>> does result in 100% of the ground coffee actually suspended in the
      >>> final
      >>>>>> brewed result. I don't happen to believe that such method results in
      >>> the
      >>>>>> best taste for my personal preferences. If I presume that I don't want
      >>>>> ALL
      >>>>>> of the coffee bean to be imparted to the coffee I drink, then that
      >>> means
      >>>>> to
      >>>>>> me that each and every variable can be manipulated to produce pleasing
      >>>>>> results, and that there are absolutely no hard and fast rules for the
      >>>>> best
      >>>>>> results.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Dave Bellware
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Ian Bersten <ian@...>
      >>> wrote:
      >>>>>>> **
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Of course I have tried coffee made with cold water.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Fact - coffee extraction is proportional to surface area of
      >>> particles.
      >>>>>>> Coarse ground coffee means poor extraction.
      >>>>>>> The lower temperature means that some components will never dissolve.
      >>>>>>> The combination of the two means weak extraction.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> It is my guess that if you took the wet grounds and dried them out
      >>> in an
      >>>>>>> oven and then reground them fine that you would get a better cup of
      >>>>> coffee.
      >>>>>>> I am not sure with coffee but I am sure with tea - I have done the
      >>>>>>> experiment.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Please make the following experiment
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> take come coffee - grind it coarse and make with cold water.
      >>>>>>> Take the same coffee and grind it espresso grind - pour boiling water
      >>>>>>> over it and leave for 30-60 seconds and compare.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Ian
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> On 2/08/2013 9:45 AM, Giuseppe Marrari wrote:
      >>>>>>>> Never tried cold press huh?
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
      >>>>>>>> From: "Ian Bersten" <ian@... <mailto:ian%40helian.net.au
      >>>>>>>> Sent: 8/1/2013 6:27 PM
      >>>>>>>> To: "vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>"
      >>>>>>>> <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>>
      >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [vacpot] Re: Filtron cold water coffee extractor
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> I always thought the idea of making a cup of coffee was to extract
      >>> the
      >>>>>>>> flavour. Why anyone would want to use a brewer that used cold water
      >>> and
      >>>>>>>> under-extracted is beyond me. If you seriously want to make weak
      >>>>>>>> coffee, take a small amount of coffee, brew with hot water. If you
      >>> want
      >>>>>>>> to drink it cold, just let it cool.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> It just goes to prove that there is an inner urge to find new idols
      >>>>>>>> within the cult of coffee - that there must be some other way to
      >>> make a
      >>>>>>>> cup of coffee that will in some unspecified way take us to coffee
      >>>>>>>> Nirvana and impress all those around us who belong to another cult
      >>> and
      >>>>>>>> have manifestly failed to make a cup of coffee with a method that
      >>>>> defies
      >>>>>>>> comprehension.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> The rule is : if it defies comprehension it probably doesn't make
      >>> good
      >>>>>>>> coffee.
      >>>>>>>> Good coffee is made following established and known principles.
      >>>>>>>> 'Ian
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> On 2/08/2013 7:40 AM, Larry Hollenberg wrote:
      >>>>>>>>> Leonard,
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Google Filtron instructions an you will find quite a number of
      >>> sites
      >>>>>>>>> that either have it or discuss it.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Larry
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
      >>>>>>>>> From: eccopronto <lennylenny@... <mailto:lennylenny%40me.com>
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:lennylenny%40me.com>>
      >>>>>>>>> To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 3:08 PM
      >>>>>>>>> Subject: [vacpot] Re: Filtron cold water coffee extractor
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> I have one of these units too. I have it displayed in a great spot
      >>> in
      >>>>>>>>> my kitchen. It's sort of an amazing unit to display.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> BUT, I do not have a clue how to use an old filtron. It has cone
      >>>>>>>>> shaped filters, cloth filters, a screw on filter...
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> If anyone could post a blow-by-blow list of instructions, I would
      >>> be
      >>>>>>>>> very happy and grateful. In the meanwhile, I will continue to look,
      >>>>>>>>> but not actually use it!
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> (I like to use my stuff!)
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Thanks
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Best
      >>>>>>>>> Leonard
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>, <rsburritt@
      >>> ...>
      >>>>>>>>> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>> Hi Larry, I have a filtron (one of the newer models) that I picked
      >>>>>>>>> up in a thrift store and have used it several times. The brewed
      >>>>>>>>> product is pretty good. It is not the same as vacpot coffee, but
      >>> it's
      >>>>>>>>> also a pleasant difference from drip coffee. I would say that the
      >>> cold
      >>>>>>>>> brewing process gives the beverage a mildly exotic flavor. One
      >>> thing
      >>>>>>>>> that I've noticed lately is that cold-brewing seems to be coming
      >>> more
      >>>>>>>>> into style, or at least with some of the designer coffees that I've
      >>>>>>>>> picked up in the store and looked at the bag, they recommend "cold
      >>>>>>>>> brewing for full flavor". Interesting.
      >>>>>>>>>> When my parents when to Hawaii a couple of years ago, they
      >>> returned
      >>>>>>>>> with some coffee that called for cold brewing. I brewed it cold in
      >>> the
      >>>>>>>>> French Press and it came out very good.
      >>>>>>>>>> The new filtron units are expensive and not very aesthetic (being
      >>>>>>>>> made out of dark brown plastic, with a clear polycarbonate
      >>>>>>>>> wine-decanter style carafe for the brewed coffee), but the older
      >>> glass
      >>>>>>>>> ones like Ron picked up are really worth the money just as
      >>>>>>>>> collectables and due to their beauty with the glass and different
      >>>>>>>>> colors/varieties of bakelite handles and parts, etc. I wouldn't
      >>> have
      >>>>>>>>> been willing to pay the $30-$40 for the new one just to sample this
      >>>>>>>>> method, but if you find one second hand at a cheap price, then in
      >>> my
      >>>>>>>>> opinion it's worth the few bucks.
      >>>>>>>>>> Also, there was an "interim" model that came out around the
      >>>>>>>>> 50's-60's which was after the glass models, but before the current
      >>>>>>>>> models. That model is made of a clear plastic upper with (I
      >>> believe) a
      >>>>>>>>> glass lower pot. They are not ugly like the brown plastic units,
      >>> but
      >>>>>>>>> they do not have the same character as the vintage glass models.
      >>>>>>>>>> Roland
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
      >>>>>>>>>> From: Larry Hollenberg
      >>>>>>>>>> To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:46 PM
      >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [vacpot] Filtron cold water coffee extractor
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> Ron,
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> I haven't got the answer you want, but would like you to let us
      >>> know
      >>>>>>>>> how you find the coffee it makes? I have always wondered about them
      >>>>>>>>> and I think that some time ago Roland was experimenting with one
      >>> and
      >>>>>>>>> found it pretty good. We recently took a rail trip and in the
      >>> sleepers
      >>>>>>>>> they had gone from a drip style pot that made quite good coffee to
      >>> a
      >>>>>>>>> liquid type that infused with hot water, which I think is a similar
      >>>>>>>>> idea. I would be interested in some other opinions of this method?
      >>>>>>>>>> Larry
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> --- On Sat, 11/15/08, Ron McCray <stebchem@...> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ron McCray <stebchem@...>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [vacpot] Filtron cold water coffee extractor
      >>>>>>>>>>> To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
      >>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:31 PM
      >>>>>>>>>>> We recently purchased one of the older, all-glass models
      >>>>>>>>>>> of the Filtron coffee extractor--the one with the lovely
      >>>>>>>>>>> butterscotch-colored handles. It came with a used filter
      >>>>>>>>>>> pad and, of course, we want to replace it with a new
      >>>>>>>>>>> filter. We see Filtron filter pads offered by various
      >>>>>>>>>>> coffee-related websites, but we're not sure they will
      >>>>>>>>>>> fit this older model of Filtron. Does anybody in our group
      >>>>>>>>>>> have experience with Filtrons (especially the older models
      >>>>>>>>>>> like ours) and have any advice about obtaining new filter
      >>>>>>>>>>> pads?
      >>>>>>>>>>> The Filtron company is still in business, but they ignored
      >>>>>>>>>>> our email in which we asked the question being posed here.
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Do the new Filtron filter pads fit the older model
      >>>>>>>>>>> extractors?
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> --
      >>>>>>>> www.chaicoffski.com.au
      >>>>>>>> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
      >>>>>>>> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> --
      >>>>>>> www.chaicoffski.com.au
      >>>>>>> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
      >>>>>>> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> ------------------------------------
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>> --
      >>>>> www.chaicoffski.com.au
      >>>>> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
      >>>>> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> ------------------------------------
      >>>>
      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> --
      >>> www.chaicoffski.com.au
      >>> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
      >>> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --
      www.chaicoffski.com.au
      Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
      Make tea with 160% more antioxidants



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ian Bersten
      -- I would like to suggest that you all make a simple scientific experiment in your kitchen Grind some coffee coarsely Put the grounds into a large hole
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 4, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        -- I would like to suggest that you all make a simple scientific experiment in your kitchen

        Grind some coffee coarsely
        Put the grounds into a large hole kitchen sieve and sift the smallest pieces out.
        Take an amount of the coarse grounds into a glass cup and pour boiling water over them. Leave for as long as you like.
        Sift out the wet grounds and put into another glass cup.
        Pour boling water over them and leave for hours, days or weeks.
        The result of the first brew will be a clear see through weak brew and the result of the second will be a clear straw coloured beverage proving that most of the extraction comes out in the first brew and hardly anything afterwards i.e. time is a minor factor.

        I did not bother to use cold water but the results will be mch weaker.

        For fun you should take the small particles and do the same experiment and compare.

        I am confident you will understand a lot more about coffee brewing.

        My thanks to Philip for his encouragement and supporting words.
















        Well, this discussion has become a bit too lively I'm afraid. Time for a
        deep breath. Let's remember that we are all entitled to share our
        opinions and to differ on any topic, but we draw a line when ANY
        person's integrity is questioned. As a moderator I must insist that we
        all adhere to this policy.

        Dave, your views are most welcome in this group and your contributions
        are very much appreciated. That said, I hope you truly appreciate who
        Ian is, his impeccable credentials with regards to the subject of coffee
        and the brewing of coffee and his many years of kind assistance to all
        of us in this group. Google Ian if you need to. Ian's lifetime of
        achievements and international standing as a genuine authority on these
        subjects cannot be overstated. Most of all, Ian has a proven lifetime of
        personal and professional integrity which I must insist that you respect
        along with the integrity of all members of the group. Naturally all must
        respect your integrity as well. Ian has NEVER sought to sell anything to
        this group or even ask for the recognition he deserves. His humility in
        his posts is a matter of record you can look up for yourself in the
        archives.

        Feel free to carry on your discussion and be as passionate as you like
        about your view Dave, but please limit the discussion to the topic and
        not the participants.

        Thank you all for your participation in this group.

        Philip

        --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave Bellware
        <bigbells@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here is a link to the SCAA Gold Standard certification, which you'll see
        > contains zero references to sensory evaluation, and which contains the
        > minimum and maximum amounts of coffee that are permitted. 35% less is
        well
        > outside of what is permitted to qualify.
        >
        >
        http://www.scaa.org/PDF/2010/Golden%20Cup%20Informaton%20and%20Application_April2010_v2.pdf
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:59 AM, Dave Bellware <bigbells@...> wrote:
        >
        > > A laboratory approved by whom? SCAA does not use a Sensory Scale in its
        > > Gold Cup Standard, so any and all such references are irrelevant as
        far as
        > > meeting the Standard. The measurements made for Gold Cup relate
        solely to
        > > the amount of coffee extracted, from a mandated amount which you
        did not
        > > meet to begin with. I can extract the approved percentage using 90%
        less
        > > coffee, but I wouldn't like the taste of it. SCAA does not approve
        coffees,
        > > it approves preparation methods. I think the lab has hoodwinked
        somebody.
        > >
        > > Dave Bellware
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Ian Bersten <ian@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >> **
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Excuse me. The results were provided by an approved laboratory.
        > >>
        > >> *Evaluation of Brewing Method & Roasted Coffee Content comparing the
        > >> CHAICOFFSKI,*
        > >>
        > >> *a NEW way to brew coffee with some other methods*
        > >>
        > >> All results were based on the use of the same blend of coffee
        > >>
        > >> **
        > >>
        > >> *CONCLUSIONS:*
        > >>
        > >> All methods produced cups in the mid-range of Usual Good Quality for
        > >> Sensory Scale
        > >>
        > >> Chaicoffski 1 was almost within Golden Cup Standard. A brew time of
        > >> anotherhalf second would have improved results sufficiently to qualify
        > >>
        > >> The Hario V-60 took more than five times as long to brew as the
        > >> Chaicoffski 1
        > >>
        > >> The Aeropress used 250% more coffee and brewed for 33% longer than the
        > >> Chaicoffski 1
        > >>
        > >> The Bodum Press took *EIGHT* times as long to brew and used 50% more
        > >> coffee than Chaicoffski 1 -- 40 grams/liter and 30 seconds
        > >>
        > >> All seven methods provided different flavour analysis.
        > >>
        > >> There was a tiny improvement in Sensory score by raising the
        Chaicoffski
        > >> brewing time from 30 to 45 seconds
        > >>
        > >> *Using the Chaicoffski 1 -- 40 grams per liter and 30 seconds brew
        time
        > >> gives similar quality -- less time -- less coffee -- easier to
        prepare,
        > >> no paper filters or standing and pouring*
        > >>
        > >> All quantitative and sensorial data was provided by an independent
        > >> laboratory specializing in coffee approved by the SCAA.
        > >>
        > >> Copyright Chaicoffski Pty. Ltd.Sydney Australia 2013
        > >>
        > >> It is true that the results confirm what I am saying about the
        > >> Chaicoffski filter but I never mentioned the name on this site and
        there
        > >> was no intent in supplying the facts that I did, that I was trying to
        > >> sell the filter to members of this site.
        > >>
        > >> I do not appreciate ad hominem attacks
        > >>
        > >> The claims I made above are true.
        > >>
        > >> Ian Bersten
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> On 2/08/2013 4:08 PM, Dave Bellware wrote:
        > >> > By definition, the qualification standards for Gold Cup simply
        does not
        > >> > allow a reduction of 35% in the amount of coffee used. The claim you
        > >> make
        > >> > is therefore provably incorrect. The maximum permissible
        reduction in
        > >> > coffee amount is 23%, since the minimum amount that can be used
        is 92
        > >> grams
        > >> > and the maximum amount that can be used is 120 grams for the
        Gold Cup
        > >> > standard.
        > >> >
        > >> > However, when I clicked the link you provided, I see that you're
        selling
        > >> > your own product, which leads me to believe that the facts might
        not be
        > >> > your highest priority. I am not disparaging your filter, just
        the claims
        > >> > you make about it.
        > >> >
        > >> > Dave Bellware
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Ian Bersten <ian@...> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> >> **
        > >>
        > >> >>
        > >> >>
        > >> >> There is an enormous difference between making Turkish coffee where
        > >> heat
        > >> >> is applied to boiling the coffee and pouring boiling water over
        coffee.
        > >> >> The latter never gets bitter until you apply more heat.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> Yes there is a difference between coffee steeped for longer
        times but
        > >> >> the major factor is the grind particle size.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> I have had tests done by an approved lab that proves that you
        can get
        > >> >> SCAA Goldcup standard with espresso grind coffee brewed for 30
        seconds
        > >> >> using 35% less coffee. Other methodds using coarser grind
        coffee need
        > >> >> 50% more coffee and longer - up to eight times - brewing time.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> You are right - every combination of time, temperature and particle
        > >> size
        > >> >> makes a different flavour BUT the cold drip produces results
        that are
        > >> >> lower in dissolved solids.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> Try making a stew with cold water.
        > >> >>
        > >> >> happy brewing
        > >> >>
        > >> >> ian
        > >> >>
        > >> >>
        > >> >> On 2/08/2013 3:19 PM, Dave Bellware wrote:
        > >> >>> What my experiments with cold brewing have proved to me is that no
        > >> matter
        > >> >>> how much I think I know about coffee and coffee preparation,
        the book
        > >> is
        > >> >> by
        > >> >>> no means closed. As for the inefficiency of large particle
        size and
        > >> the
        > >> >>> resultant smaller surface area, the greatly increased steep
        time of
        > >> cold
        > >> >>> brewing negates much of that inefficiency, in my opinion. I've
        known
        > >> that
        > >> >>> from comparing short-steeped, finely ground vacuum brews to much
        > >> >>> longer-steeped drip brews with coffee that's much more coarsely
        > >> ground.
        > >> >>> Both are great but they are not the same.
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>> I can't remember where I saw it, but I've seen a chart that
        made some
        > >> >>> effort to graph the effects of steep time against particle
        size of the
        > >> >>> coffee.
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>> The point at which my thinking gets roadblocked is when I start to
        > >> think
        > >> >>> that the finest possible grind, such as a true Turkish grind,
        should
        > >> or
        > >> >>> does result in 100% of the ground coffee actually suspended in the
        > >> final
        > >> >>> brewed result. I don't happen to believe that such method
        results in
        > >> the
        > >> >>> best taste for my personal preferences. If I presume that I
        don't want
        > >> >> ALL
        > >> >>> of the coffee bean to be imparted to the coffee I drink, then that
        > >> means
        > >> >> to
        > >> >>> me that each and every variable can be manipulated to produce
        pleasing
        > >> >>> results, and that there are absolutely no hard and fast rules
        for the
        > >> >> best
        > >> >>> results.
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>> Dave Bellware
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Ian Bersten <ian@...>
        > >> wrote:
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>>> **
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> Of course I have tried coffee made with cold water.
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> Fact - coffee extraction is proportional to surface area of
        > >> particles.
        > >> >>>> Coarse ground coffee means poor extraction.
        > >> >>>> The lower temperature means that some components will never
        dissolve.
        > >> >>>> The combination of the two means weak extraction.
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> It is my guess that if you took the wet grounds and dried
        them out
        > >> in an
        > >> >>>> oven and then reground them fine that you would get a better
        cup of
        > >> >> coffee.
        > >> >>>> I am not sure with coffee but I am sure with tea - I have
        done the
        > >> >>>> experiment.
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> Please make the following experiment
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> take come coffee - grind it coarse and make with cold water.
        > >> >>>> Take the same coffee and grind it espresso grind - pour
        boiling water
        > >> >>>> over it and leave for 30-60 seconds and compare.
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> Ian
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> On 2/08/2013 9:45 AM, Giuseppe Marrari wrote:
        > >> >>>>> Never tried cold press huh?
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
        > >> >>>>> From: "Ian Bersten" <ian@... <mailto:ian%40helian.net.au
        > >> >>
        > >> >>>>> Sent: 8/1/2013 6:27 PM
        > >> >>>>> To: "vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>"
        > >> >>>>> <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>>
        > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [vacpot] Re: Filtron cold water coffee extractor
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> I always thought the idea of making a cup of coffee was to
        extract
        > >> the
        > >> >>>>> flavour. Why anyone would want to use a brewer that used
        cold water
        > >> and
        > >> >>>>> under-extracted is beyond me. If you seriously want to make weak
        > >> >>>>> coffee, take a small amount of coffee, brew with hot water.
        If you
        > >> want
        > >> >>>>> to drink it cold, just let it cool.
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> It just goes to prove that there is an inner urge to find
        new idols
        > >> >>>>> within the cult of coffee - that there must be some other way to
        > >> make a
        > >> >>>>> cup of coffee that will in some unspecified way take us to
        coffee
        > >> >>>>> Nirvana and impress all those around us who belong to
        another cult
        > >> and
        > >> >>>>> have manifestly failed to make a cup of coffee with a method
        that
        > >> >> defies
        > >> >>>>> comprehension.
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> The rule is : if it defies comprehension it probably doesn't
        make
        > >> good
        > >> >>>>> coffee.
        > >> >>>>> Good coffee is made following established and known principles.
        > >> >>>>> 'Ian
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> On 2/08/2013 7:40 AM, Larry Hollenberg wrote:
        > >> >>>>>> Leonard,
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> Google Filtron instructions an you will find quite a number of
        > >> sites
        > >> >>>>>> that either have it or discuss it.
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> Larry
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> ________________________________
        > >> >>>>>> From: eccopronto <lennylenny@... <mailto:lennylenny%40me.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:lennylenny%40me.com>>
        > >> >>>>>> To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 3:08 PM
        > >> >>>>>> Subject: [vacpot] Re: Filtron cold water coffee extractor
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> I have one of these units too. I have it displayed in a
        great spot
        > >> in
        > >> >>>>>> my kitchen. It's sort of an amazing unit to display.
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> BUT, I do not have a clue how to use an old filtron. It has
        cone
        > >> >>>>>> shaped filters, cloth filters, a screw on filter...
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> If anyone could post a blow-by-blow list of instructions, I
        would
        > >> be
        > >> >>>>>> very happy and grateful. In the meanwhile, I will continue
        to look,
        > >> >>>>>> but not actually use it!
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> (I like to use my stuff!)
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> Thanks
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> Best
        > >> >>>>>> Leonard
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>,
        <rsburritt@
        > >> ...>
        > >> >>>>>> wrote:
        > >> >>>>>>> Hi Larry, I have a filtron (one of the newer models) that
        I picked
        > >> >>>>>> up in a thrift store and have used it several times. The brewed
        > >> >>>>>> product is pretty good. It is not the same as vacpot
        coffee, but
        > >> it's
        > >> >>>>>> also a pleasant difference from drip coffee. I would say
        that the
        > >> cold
        > >> >>>>>> brewing process gives the beverage a mildly exotic flavor. One
        > >> thing
        > >> >>>>>> that I've noticed lately is that cold-brewing seems to be
        coming
        > >> more
        > >> >>>>>> into style, or at least with some of the designer coffees
        that I've
        > >> >>>>>> picked up in the store and looked at the bag, they
        recommend "cold
        > >> >>>>>> brewing for full flavor". Interesting.
        > >> >>>>>>> When my parents when to Hawaii a couple of years ago, they
        > >> returned
        > >> >>>>>> with some coffee that called for cold brewing. I brewed it
        cold in
        > >> the
        > >> >>>>>> French Press and it came out very good.
        > >> >>>>>>> The new filtron units are expensive and not very aesthetic
        (being
        > >> >>>>>> made out of dark brown plastic, with a clear polycarbonate
        > >> >>>>>> wine-decanter style carafe for the brewed coffee), but the
        older
        > >> glass
        > >> >>>>>> ones like Ron picked up are really worth the money just as
        > >> >>>>>> collectables and due to their beauty with the glass and
        different
        > >> >>>>>> colors/varieties of bakelite handles and parts, etc. I wouldn't
        > >> have
        > >> >>>>>> been willing to pay the $30-$40 for the new one just to
        sample this
        > >> >>>>>> method, but if you find one second hand at a cheap price,
        then in
        > >> my
        > >> >>>>>> opinion it's worth the few bucks.
        > >> >>>>>>> Also, there was an "interim" model that came out around the
        > >> >>>>>> 50's-60's which was after the glass models, but before the
        current
        > >> >>>>>> models. That model is made of a clear plastic upper with (I
        > >> believe) a
        > >> >>>>>> glass lower pot. They are not ugly like the brown plastic
        units,
        > >> but
        > >> >>>>>> they do not have the same character as the vintage glass
        models.
        > >> >>>>>>> Roland
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
        > >> >>>>>>> From: Larry Hollenberg
        > >> >>>>>>> To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:46 PM
        > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [vacpot] Filtron cold water coffee extractor
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>> Ron,
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>> I haven't got the answer you want, but would like you to
        let us
        > >> know
        > >> >>>>>> how you find the coffee it makes? I have always wondered
        about them
        > >> >>>>>> and I think that some time ago Roland was experimenting
        with one
        > >> and
        > >> >>>>>> found it pretty good. We recently took a rail trip and in the
        > >> sleepers
        > >> >>>>>> they had gone from a drip style pot that made quite good
        coffee to
        > >> a
        > >> >>>>>> liquid type that infused with hot water, which I think is a
        similar
        > >> >>>>>> idea. I would be interested in some other opinions of this
        method?
        > >> >>>>>>> Larry
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>> --- On Sat, 11/15/08, Ron McCray <stebchem@> wrote:
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>>> From: Ron McCray <stebchem@>
        > >> >>>>>>>> Subject: [vacpot] Filtron cold water coffee extractor
        > >> >>>>>>>> To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>> <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >>>>>>>> Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:31 PM
        > >> >>>>>>>> We recently purchased one of the older, all-glass models
        > >> >>>>>>>> of the Filtron coffee extractor--the one with the lovely
        > >> >>>>>>>> butterscotch-colored handles. It came with a used filter
        > >> >>>>>>>> pad and, of course, we want to replace it with a new
        > >> >>>>>>>> filter. We see Filtron filter pads offered by various
        > >> >>>>>>>> coffee-related websites, but we're not sure they will
        > >> >>>>>>>> fit this older model of Filtron. Does anybody in our group
        > >> >>>>>>>> have experience with Filtrons (especially the older models
        > >> >>>>>>>> like ours) and have any advice about obtaining new filter
        > >> >>>>>>>> pads?
        > >> >>>>>>>> The Filtron company is still in business, but they ignored
        > >> >>>>>>>> our email in which we asked the question being posed here.
        > >> >>>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>>> Do the new Filtron filter pads fit the older model
        > >> >>>>>>>> extractors?
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >>>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>>>
        > >> >>>>> --
        > >> >>>>> www.chaicoffski.com.au
        > >> >>>>> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
        > >> >>>>> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>>>
        > >> >>>> --
        > >> >>>> www.chaicoffski.com.au
        > >> >>>> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
        > >> >>>> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>>>
        > >> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>> ------------------------------------
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >> >>>
        > >> >>>
        > >> >> --
        > >> >> www.chaicoffski.com.au
        > >> >> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
        > >> >> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
        > >> >>
        > >> >>
        > >> >>
        > >> >
        > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > ------------------------------------
        > >> >
        > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >> --
        > >> www.chaicoffski.com.au
        > >> Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
        > >> Make tea with 160% more antioxidants
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >



        -- www.chaicoffski.com.au Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less
        coffee. Make tea with 160% more antioxidants

        www.chaicoffski.com.au
        Make coffee in 30 seconds using 35% less coffee.
        Make tea with 160% more antioxidants



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