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Re: [vacpot] Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...

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  • carol.vesperino
    I use all of mine on the stove. If an electric range like mine, you need the wire coil heat diffuser to not have the glass explode. My Grandmother used hers
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 4, 2013
      I use all of mine on the stove. If an electric range like mine, you need
      the wire coil heat diffuser to not have the glass explode. My Grandmother
      used hers directly on the gas. In both cases, DO NOT use anything more than
      medium heat.
      Carol V___Pa.


      In a message dated 3/4/2013 8:33:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      zack832@... writes:

      I was excited to try coffee with the Sunbeam Coffeemaster I picked up at
      the local Goodwill for $3.99. Got it home rinsed it out and filled it with
      cool water and it worked perfectly. After a few minutes the water filled
      the upper bowl with a whoosh, the switch clicked over to Lo, and it appeared
      to be working well.

      Disassembled it and gave it a good soapy cleaning, though the unit was
      mint, not a stain or blemish, no discoloration in either the pot of the bowl.
      Added water and some coffee and nothing! Appears to be once and done.
      Pulled the bottom plate off, dated Aug 4. 1954, also a couple of signatures
      in pencil, checked the continuity of the heater, .5m ohms. Appears to be
      dead.

      So I'm a little frustrated, have read on a few sites how good the coffee
      made this way is, plus it is a very classic looking piece of history. In
      scanning the posts I noticed someone converted a dead C30c to stove top use,
      how is that done?

      Perhaps I'll run across another unit someday, not willing to invest $50+
      the good units are going for on ebay and all the bases listed seem to be
      older models that I'm told are not compatible with my mint C30C bowl. From
      reading the repair manual it seems I can't use the heater from a donor unit.
      Open to suggestions....



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • P. Wilhelm
      The C30C is the metal/chrome set with built-in 120vac heater. I am thinking the heater/base obviously has to be removed, but not sure what the bottom of the
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 4, 2013
        The C30C is the metal/chrome set with built-in 120vac heater.

        I am thinking the heater/base obviously has to be removed, but not sure what the bottom of the carafe looks like without the heater, and if it will then sit flat on a stovetop with some sort of mod.
      • carol.vesperino
        Maybe a wok base?? Carol In a message dated 3/4/2013 9:03:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pawilh@yahoo.com writes: The C30C is the metal/chrome set with
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 4, 2013
          Maybe a wok base??
          Carol


          In a message dated 3/4/2013 9:03:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          pawilh@... writes:

          The C30C is the metal/chrome set with built-in 120vac heater.

          I am thinking the heater/base obviously has to be removed, but not sure
          what the bottom of the carafe looks like without the heater, and if it will
          then sit flat on a stovetop with some sort of mod.


          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Roland
          Any idea why it died? Did it get wet during your cleaning? Is there perhaps a bad electrical connection that can be redone? Roland From:
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 5, 2013
            Any idea why it died? Did it get wet during your cleaning? Is there
            perhaps a bad electrical connection that can be redone?



            Roland



            From: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zack
            Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 4:34 PM
            To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [vacpot] Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...





            I was excited to try coffee with the Sunbeam Coffeemaster I picked up at the
            local Goodwill for $3.99. Got it home rinsed it out and filled it with cool
            water and it worked perfectly. After a few minutes the water filled the
            upper bowl with a whoosh, the switch clicked over to Lo, and it appeared to
            be working well.

            Disassembled it and gave it a good soapy cleaning, though the unit was mint,
            not a stain or blemish, no discoloration in either the pot of the bowl.
            Added water and some coffee and nothing! Appears to be once and done. Pulled
            the bottom plate off, dated Aug 4. 1954, also a couple of signatures in
            pencil, checked the continuity of the heater, .5m ohms. Appears to be dead.

            So I'm a little frustrated, have read on a few sites how good the coffee
            made this way is, plus it is a very classic looking piece of history. In
            scanning the posts I noticed someone converted a dead C30c to stove top use,
            how is that done?

            Perhaps I'll run across another unit someday, not willing to invest $50+ the
            good units are going for on ebay and all the bases listed seem to be older
            models that I'm told are not compatible with my mint C30C bowl. From reading
            the repair manual it seems I can't use the heater from a donor unit. Open to
            suggestions....





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Zack
            Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater coil and
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 5, 2013
              Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater coil and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something and that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look promising.

              Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up look at the element and proceed from there.
            • Robert Bennett II
              Good luck with it. I Googled your machine, and it really looks cool. I m betting that somehow it will be fixable. The fact that you found someone s initials
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 5, 2013
                Good luck with it. I Googled your machine, and it really looks cool. I'm betting that somehow it will be fixable. The fact that you found someone's initials inside it usually means it's been serviced before. It was probably nothing you did, just coincidence....Hang in.

                --- On Tue, 3/5/13, Zack <zack832@...> wrote:


                From: Zack <zack832@...>
                Subject: [vacpot] Re: Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...
                To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2013, 10:34 AM



                 




                Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater coil and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something and that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look promising.

                Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up look at the element and proceed from there.








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lou Pape, LMT
                Someone mentioned something about the electric prongs coming loose with use; if I remember correctly. They also explained how to fix this. From:
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 5, 2013
                  Someone mentioned something about the electric prongs coming loose with use;
                  if I remember correctly. They also explained how to fix this.



                  From: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zack
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:35 PM
                  To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [vacpot] Re: Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...






                  Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I do
                  not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater coil
                  and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something and
                  that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look promising.

                  Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up look
                  at the element and proceed from there.





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • pawilh
                  There is a Sunbeam C30B,C service manual posted here--look in files .
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 5, 2013
                    There is a Sunbeam C30B,C service manual posted here--look in "files".

                    --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "Lou Pape, LMT" <loupape@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Someone mentioned something about the electric prongs coming loose with use;
                    > if I remember correctly. They also explained how to fix this.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zack
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:35 PM
                    > To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [vacpot] Re: Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I do
                    > not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater coil
                    > and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something and
                    > that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look promising.
                    >
                    > Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up look
                    > at the element and proceed from there.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • carol.vesperino
                    I have a VERY old flip-side toaster, and was told that occasionally the wires burn through. Could something like that have happened to your pot? I even had
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 5, 2013
                      I have a VERY old flip-side toaster, and was told that occasionally the
                      wires burn through. Could something like that have happened to your pot? I
                      even had the electric element in my oven melt and burn through once, so it IS
                      a possibility.
                      Carol V___PA.


                      In a message dated 3/5/2013 1:36:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      zack832@... writes:


                      Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I
                      do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater
                      coil and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something
                      and that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look
                      promising.

                      Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up
                      look at the element and proceed from there.





                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Fiore
                      I don t mean to be a wet blanket, but according to the service manual for the C30, the heating element is not repairable. That being said, if you look on
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 6, 2013
                        I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but according to the service manual for
                        the C30, the heating element is not repairable. That being said, if you
                        look on ebay, you will often find a lower pot for sale without the upper,
                        but the upper is seldom found by itself, so I would just go ahead and pick
                        up a new lower.

                        Cheers,
                        -dbf

                        On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 10:42 PM, <cvthedragonlady@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > I have a VERY old flip-side toaster, and was told that occasionally the
                        > wires burn through. Could something like that have happened to your pot? I
                        > even had the electric element in my oven melt and burn through once, so it
                        > IS
                        > a possibility.
                        > Carol V___PA.
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 3/5/2013 1:36:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        > zack832@... writes:
                        >
                        > Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I
                        > do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater
                        > coil and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something
                        > and that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look
                        > promising.
                        >
                        > Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up
                        > look at the element and proceed from there.
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        David Fiore

                        david@...


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John A.
                        Hi, The only way to know for sure about the element is to disassemble the unit and check continuity directly at the element terminals themselves. I once had a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 6, 2013
                          Hi, The only way to know for sure about the element is to disassemble the unit and check continuity directly at the element terminals themselves. I once had a similar experience, but the problem turned out to just be a faulty cord. Very odd that a machine in the condition you described would have a defunct element. At any rate, the copper scrap value for a stripped down Coffeemaster lower bowl is between $5 and $6. Good Luck.

                          John A.

                          --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, David Fiore <david@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but according to the service manual for
                          > the C30, the heating element is not repairable. That being said, if you
                          > look on ebay, you will often find a lower pot for sale without the upper,
                          > but the upper is seldom found by itself, so I would just go ahead and pick
                          > up a new lower.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > -dbf
                          >
                          > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 10:42 PM, <cvthedragonlady@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I have a VERY old flip-side toaster, and was told that occasionally the
                          > > wires burn through. Could something like that have happened to your pot? I
                          > > even had the electric element in my oven melt and burn through once, so it
                          > > IS
                          > > a possibility.
                          > > Carol V___PA.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In a message dated 3/5/2013 1:36:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          > > zack832@... writes:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I
                          > > do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater
                          > > coil and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something
                          > > and that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look
                          > > promising.
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up
                          > > look at the element and proceed from there.
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          >
                          > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          > David Fiore
                          >
                          > david@...
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • P. Wilhelm
                          I agree, I m hoping he finds something minor wrong with the thermostat, or something else repairable. Heaters do periodically fail, but they generally make a
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 6, 2013
                            I agree, I'm hoping he finds something minor wrong with the thermostat, or something else repairable.

                            Heaters do periodically fail, but they generally make a hot-spot before they burn through. Resistive short--
                          • John A.
                            Yep, I m betting that the old Coffeemaster is still functional, too. Actually, those initials on the lower metal clamp plate probably belong to the factory guy
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 6, 2013
                              Yep, I'm betting that the old Coffeemaster is still functional, too. Actually, those initials on the lower metal clamp plate probably belong to the factory guy who did the final adjustments on the machine before it was packaged. He would record the pyrometer readings for HIGH and LOW temps in pencil. For example, something like 330 degrees for HIGH, and perhaps 210 degrees for LOW, and then make his initials. Of course, he never did it right, so we now go to great lengths to readjust these babies... ;-)

                              John A.

                              BTW, I have a pictorial breakdown of a C30C in my album here --
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vacuumcoffeepotcollector/photos/album/773096545/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
                              and a link to my scanned original Sunbeam Service Bulletin here --
                              https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1jAt_aywEGn-B0LkwmtKbM4wcZ6E0-F1qQ4aPSk-Kp_U&pli=1

                              --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Robert Bennett II <rbennett47@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Good luck with it. I Googled your machine, and it really looks cool. I'm betting that somehow it will be fixable. The fact that you found someone's initials inside it usually means it's been serviced before. It was probably nothing you did, just coincidence....Hang in.
                              >
                              > --- On Tue, 3/5/13, Zack <zack832@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Zack <zack832@...>
                              > Subject: [vacpot] Re: Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...
                              > To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2013, 10:34 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the responses. I was quite careful when cleaning it, so I do not believe it is a water issue. I checked the continuity of the heater coil and it appears to be open. I was hoping that I was missing something and that someone here could suggest a solution, but it does not look promising.
                              >
                              > Perhaps I will try and remove more of the base today and get a close up look at the element and proceed from there.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Zack
                              Well I finally tore the unit apart, the heater is definitely burned out. i disassembled the bottom as much as I could, took the thermostat and switch off and
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 26, 2013
                                Well I finally tore the unit apart, the heater is definitely burned out. i disassembled the bottom as much as I could, took the thermostat and switch off and used it on the gas stove top. Made a pot of coffee, turned out quite well for the first try.

                                That encouraged me to buy a base on ebay, there was a newly listed C30C base and lid for $14.95 + shipping so I sprang for it. My upper bowl is fine but I am missing the lid, so this should work out well. Prices certainly seem high on ebay at the moment as someone else posted, opted for buy it now instead of bidding on the base as it could go much higher, seems the C30C bases are in very short supply.

                                Thanks for the help, I'll post again when I get the base.
                              • Lou Pape, LMT
                                Hi all! I sold a c30c with the tray and sugar creamer a while back. Now I wish I d kept it. I have 3 c30a s and 2 c20 s .. they all make great coffee. Here is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 27, 2013
                                  Hi all!



                                  I sold a c30c with the tray and sugar creamer a while back. Now I wish I'd
                                  kept it. I have 3 c30a's and 2 c20's .. they all make great coffee.

                                  Here is the one I sold : http://pinterest.com/pin/383157880766886007/

                                  Here is some of my collection:
                                  http://pinterest.com/loupape/my-vintage-coffee-pots/



                                  I found my first vacuum pot in a yard sale in New Hampshire .. It's hard to
                                  find them from that era here in Houston in thrift stores or yards sales -
                                  not enough old neighborhoods.



                                  I'm so glad I joined this group!

                                  Lou



                                  From: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zack
                                  Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:17 PM
                                  To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [vacpot] Re: Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...






                                  Well I finally tore the unit apart, the heater is definitely burned out. i
                                  disassembled the bottom as much as I could, took the thermostat and switch
                                  off and used it on the gas stove top. Made a pot of coffee, turned out quite
                                  well for the first try.

                                  That encouraged me to buy a base on ebay, there was a newly listed C30C base
                                  and lid for $14.95 + shipping so I sprang for it. My upper bowl is fine but
                                  I am missing the lid, so this should work out well. Prices certainly seem
                                  high on ebay at the moment as someone else posted, opted for buy it now
                                  instead of bidding on the base as it could go much higher, seems the C30C
                                  bases are in very short supply.

                                  Thanks for the help, I'll post again when I get the base.





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • pawilh
                                  Neat collection. Hey, is that an auto-drip I see there? Lololol They seem to be scarse up north too, even in the antique shops. Some years ago--mid 90 s--my
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 27, 2013
                                    Neat collection. Hey, is that an auto-drip I see there? Lololol

                                    They seem to be scarse up north too, even in the antique shops. Some years ago--mid 90's--my wife and I went to an estate sale where the owner must have been a collector, mainly of the glass pots, and literally had shelves full of them. I picked my first brewer up there and somehow it was put away and never used until this year.

                                    I sure would like to run across another estate sale like that one--

                                    Paul


                                    --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "Lou Pape, LMT" <loupape@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi all!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I sold a c30c with the tray and sugar creamer a while back. Now I wish I'd
                                    > kept it. I have 3 c30a's and 2 c20's .. they all make great coffee.
                                    >
                                    > Here is the one I sold : http://pinterest.com/pin/383157880766886007/
                                    >
                                    > Here is some of my collection:
                                    > http://pinterest.com/loupape/my-vintage-coffee-pots/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I found my first vacuum pot in a yard sale in New Hampshire .. It's hard to
                                    > find them from that era here in Houston in thrift stores or yards sales -
                                    > not enough old neighborhoods.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm so glad I joined this group!
                                    >
                                    > Lou
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Zack
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:17 PM
                                    > To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [vacpot] Re: Hi.. New owner of a C30C that died after one use...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Well I finally tore the unit apart, the heater is definitely burned out. i
                                    > disassembled the bottom as much as I could, took the thermostat and switch
                                    > off and used it on the gas stove top. Made a pot of coffee, turned out quite
                                    > well for the first try.
                                    >
                                    > That encouraged me to buy a base on ebay, there was a newly listed C30C base
                                    > and lid for $14.95 + shipping so I sprang for it. My upper bowl is fine but
                                    > I am missing the lid, so this should work out well. Prices certainly seem
                                    > high on ebay at the moment as someone else posted, opted for buy it now
                                    > instead of bidding on the base as it could go much higher, seems the C30C
                                    > bases are in very short supply.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the help, I'll post again when I get the base.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Zack
                                    Lou, that is a very nice collection, like the display. Anxious to get brewing when my base arrives. Hope this does not start me on another collection, I have
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 28, 2013
                                      Lou, that is a very nice collection, like the display. Anxious to get brewing when my base arrives. Hope this does not start me on another collection, I have a few others.
                                    • Dave
                                      Hi Zack, I m the one that converted the C30 to stove-top use. I removed all electronics and plastic from the bottom (The heating element is welded on, so
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 29, 2013
                                        Hi Zack,

                                        I'm the one that converted the C30 to stove-top use. I removed all electronics and plastic from the bottom (The heating element is welded on, so stays). The brass bolt in the center needs to be sawed off almost flush and maybe ground down. Then take a socket and place around the bolt stub and, using a hammer, tap the bottom so it is no longer bowled. The ends of the heating element need to be bent/hammered or cut off so the whole element is flat. This is to keep it from rocking. It wouldn't hurt to flatten the element with a hammer some, but may not be needed. I did it without trying it without first.
                                        The whole thing makes a dandy, nice looking and rugged stove-top brewer.

                                        Dave in Michigan

                                        --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "Zack" <zack832@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I was excited to try coffee with the Sunbeam Coffeemaster I picked up at the local Goodwill for $3.99. Got it home rinsed it out and filled it with cool water and it worked perfectly. After a few minutes the water filled the upper bowl with a whoosh, the switch clicked over to Lo, and it appeared to be working well.
                                        >
                                        > Disassembled it and gave it a good soapy cleaning, though the unit was mint, not a stain or blemish, no discoloration in either the pot of the bowl. Added water and some coffee and nothing! Appears to be once and done. Pulled the bottom plate off, dated Aug 4. 1954, also a couple of signatures in pencil, checked the continuity of the heater, .5m ohms. Appears to be dead.
                                        >
                                        > So I'm a little frustrated, have read on a few sites how good the coffee made this way is, plus it is a very classic looking piece of history. In scanning the posts I noticed someone converted a dead C30c to stove top use, how is that done?
                                        >
                                        > Perhaps I'll run across another unit someday, not willing to invest $50+ the good units are going for on ebay and all the bases listed seem to be older models that I'm told are not compatible with my mint C30C bowl. From reading the repair manual it seems I can't use the heater from a donor unit. Open to suggestions....
                                        >
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