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Re: Recent Ebay auction for the Enamel Universal Cafetera?

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  • Bo Long
    Personally I have no problem with anonymous bidding and the potential for shill bidding. I am just grateful that Ebay allows us to see these extrememly rare
    Message 1 of 45 , Jun 8, 2007
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      Personally I have no problem with anonymous bidding and the potential
      for shill bidding. I am just grateful that Ebay allows us to see
      these extrememly rare items and take a stab at owning them. If the
      buyer has enlisted shills then the chance is there that the buyer
      will just be buying back his own item. If the buyer is artfully using
      shills to nudge up the price towards the expected true market value
      and the market bears the price then that is capitalism in action. Get
      over it. Wish I had won it though. The shape of those early
      ceramic/metal Universals is exquisite. Bo Long



      --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, <rsburritt@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Even if I had extremely deep pockets I would not have bid on this
      one. Anonymous bidding means ONE thing and ONE thing only---SHILL
      > If the buyer happens to be lurking on this board, sorry to offend,
      but have to get that off my chest. We've had this discussion
      > before. If the seller happens to be lurking, then please explain
      why you chose this format. Thank you.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Fran" <coffee@...>
      > To: <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:01 AM
      > Subject: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Re: Recent Ebay auction for the
      Enamel Universal Cafetera?
      >
      >
      > Hi Dave, Larry, et al...
      >
      > Hey Eunice, we lost out too. Our bid was not even close and sort of
      > realized it wasn't going to win since it was just over what we paid
      > Eunice for the lovely Universal we DO have.
      >
      > Strange how the bidders were revealed early on in the bidding then
      > became anonymous but I'm pretty sure I remember who #2 was...;-D -
      and
      > it wasn't me! Rats.
      >
      >
      > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "vacpotaddict"
      > <vacpotaddict@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hey all...
      > >
      > > Was this won by anyone here? It's a beautiful pot. Would love
      to see
      > > more/larger images if someone here won it or someone got larger
      images
      > > from the seller.
      > >
      > > Check it out:
      > >
      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      ViewItem&rd=1&item=230135770263&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
      > >
      > >
      > > Dave
      > >
      >
    • Bo Long
      I think you slightly misunderstood my meaning. I was not advocating for the use of shill bidding. It is just that there is no way to guard against it or really
      Message 45 of 45 , Jun 10, 2007
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        I think you slightly misunderstood my meaning. I was not advocating
        for the use of shill bidding. It is just that there is no way to
        guard against it or really prove it to be taking place, so why worry
        about it. I do suspect that when sellers initiate anonymous bidding
        Ebay still knows the identity of the bidders and if they start to see
        the same bidders in a sellers's auction repeatedly they might make
        inquiries. However, that's no guarantee of of a prosecution either.
        Many of the same people show up together repeatedly at auctions
        because as collectors they are interested in the same categories.
        Technically, they could be suspect as being shill bidders. I mean, a
        lot of the same people show up at the auctions of sellers who
        specialize in vacuum coffee makers. How would a shill bidder ever be
        recognized out of the crowd? It's impossible to defend against, so we
        just have to live with it. Bo Long


        --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, <rsburritt@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > "I don't advocate wholesale, no holds barred, laissez faire
        capitalism"
        >
        > Bo you have just contradicted your earlier post where you advocated
        sellers shilling to "help" get the fair market value. My point
        > is start the bid at a minimum bid or set a reserve price.
        >
        > Roland Burritt
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Bo Long" <long9875@...>
        > To: <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:04 AM
        > Subject: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Re: Recent Ebay auction for the
        Enamel Universal Cafetera?
        >
        >
        > Ebay is no different from any other auction house. People will pay
        > whatever they want or not to get something. Ebay is a purely open
        > market force with wonderful instant communication and great checks
        > and balances on sellers and buyers who do not uphold the terms and
        > conditions of the contract (timely payment, timely delivery,) and
        > unlike the old auction houses bad actors are held up for scorn via
        > the feedback system for all to see, but as for shill bidding and
        > price pumping there are ways to do it that can never really be
        proven
        > nefarious. If you suspect a seller of being a repeat shiller, then
        > don't bid on that seller's auctions. I don't see any difference
        > between walking into Ebay and walking onto any car lot and playing
        > the game of price negotiation while other buyers hover about and the
        > salesperson plays them off against one another, and the salesperson
        > is allowed to play any pricing game they want. A nice recent
        > development,however, is the "lemon law," and Ebay has their own
        > version of that. I don't advocate wholesale, no holds barred,
        laissez
        > faire capitalism - people must be protected from certain bad things,
        > but as for seller pricing pure and simple the sign says be prepared
        > to pay what I say is the price. If you don't like it, don't pay. Bo
        > Long
        >
        >
        > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, <rsburritt@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > I don't disagree with you Bo but the FTC plays a part. Ebay is
        not
        > the same as an auction house where the players generally know
        > > the waters and those who don't are forewarned not to go swimming.
        > Ebay is more like television, it comes right into the living room
        > > of the American public. That's who the FTC is out to protect.
        > They are bound to do something sooner or later. It will be
        > > interesting to see how things pan out.
        > > Roland
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Bo Long" <long9875@>
        > > To: <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 10:35 PM
        > > Subject: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Re: Recent Ebay auction for
        the
        > Enamel Universal Cafetera?
        > >
        > >
        > > Roland - There are 70,000 Ebay sellers in the US alone. I cannot
        > > honestly foresee some process by which they are licensed as
        > > auctioneers. I worked in the art business for some years. Shilling
        > at
        > > auctions occurs all the time but amongst gentlemen and gentlewomen
        > > with a wink and a nod. Plus, buyers can get together and hold down
        > > the bids - it's two way street. I'll bet the person who won the
        > > Universal for $1,300 plus is still happy she got it. Welcome to
        > > America. Bo Long
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, <rsburritt@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Bo I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. Shilling
        > > undermines the true capitalist process, which lets the market
        > > > determine the value. If market value is X, then don't start the
        > > auction below that. There is such thing as a reserve price, or
        > > > simply starting the auction at a higher minimum bid, which is
        what
        > > professional auction houses do. Professional auction houses
        > > > require auctioneers to be licensed. If they are ever caught
        > > shilling they lose the license, as well as charges can be filed.
        > > There
        > > > has been a debate going for years whether any seller should be
        > > required to have an auctioneer's license in every state....or
        > whether
        > > > ebay should. The commercial internet as we know it is still
        new,
        > > but I foresee the day (probably within 10 years) when formats will
        > > > be different. Both eBay and sellers will be required to hold
        > > auctioneer's licenses in their states. Those who sell online
        > > (auction
        > > > format) for a living will be required to have an auctioneer's
        > > license. For the person who just wants to sell a few things, the
        > > > solution will be to take the item to a someone else (trading
        > > assistant) who has a license, or to fall under eBay's proxy
        license
        > > > (for a fee, of course).
        > > >
        > > > No, I am not crying, "the sky is falling". I'm simply stating
        > that
        > > due to all the fraud that takes place on the open internet, and
        > > > keeping in mind the paths of least resistance are usually the
        ones
        > > followed, these are the future solutions I foresee as becoming
        > > > implemented.
        > > >
        > > > Roland Burritt
        > > > Southern Utah, USA
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: "Bo Long" <long9875@>
        > > > To: <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:05 AM
        > > > Subject: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Re: Recent Ebay auction for
        > the
        > > Enamel Universal Cafetera?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Personally I have no problem with anonymous bidding and the
        > > potential
        > > > for shill bidding. I am just grateful that Ebay allows us to see
        > > > these extrememly rare items and take a stab at owning them. If
        the
        > > > buyer has enlisted shills then the chance is there that the
        buyer
        > > > will just be buying back his own item. If the buyer is artfully
        > > using
        > > > shills to nudge up the price towards the expected true market
        > value
        > > > and the market bears the price then that is capitalism in
        action.
        > > Get
        > > > over it. Wish I had won it though. The shape of those early
        > > > ceramic/metal Universals is exquisite. Bo Long
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, <rsburritt@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Even if I had extremely deep pockets I would not have bid on
        > this
        > > > one. Anonymous bidding means ONE thing and ONE thing only---
        SHILL
        > > > > If the buyer happens to be lurking on this board, sorry to
        > offend,
        > > > but have to get that off my chest. We've had this discussion
        > > > > before. If the seller happens to be lurking, then please
        > explain
        > > > why you chose this format. Thank you.
        > > > >
        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > From: "Fran" <coffee@>
        > > > > To: <vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:01 AM
        > > > > Subject: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Re: Recent Ebay auction
        for
        > > the
        > > > Enamel Universal Cafetera?
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Dave, Larry, et al...
        > > > >
        > > > > Hey Eunice, we lost out too. Our bid was not even close and
        > sort
        > > of
        > > > > realized it wasn't going to win since it was just over what we
        > > paid
        > > > > Eunice for the lovely Universal we DO have.
        > > > >
        > > > > Strange how the bidders were revealed early on in the bidding
        > then
        > > > > became anonymous but I'm pretty sure I remember who #2
        was...;-
        > D -
        > > > and
        > > > > it wasn't me! Rats.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In
        vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "vacpotaddict"
        > > > > <vacpotaddict@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hey all...
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Was this won by anyone here? It's a beautiful pot. Would
        > love
        > > > to see
        > > > > > more/larger images if someone here won it or someone got
        > larger
        > > > images
        > > > > > from the seller.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Check it out:
        > > > > >
        > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        > > > ViewItem&rd=1&item=230135770263&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Dave
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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