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Re: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Grinders...

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  • Larry Hollenberg
    Michael, I have a zassenhaus hand grinder which makes a lot of small dust like particles. Do they still produce them? Or do I just have to try the luck of
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 23 8:26 AM
      Michael,

      I have a zassenhaus hand grinder which makes a lot of
      small dust like particles. Do they still produce
      them? Or do I just have to try the luck of finding a
      different one that may not do that.
      Any hand grinders that are known to be reliable?

      Larry


      --- Michael Eyre <meyre@...> wrote:

      > Speaking of grinders... what do you all use? I've
      > got a big Faema
      > espresso grinder here, that'll grind anything and
      > everything uniformly
      > and fast. I've found the grind to be the key to vac
      > pot enjoyment. It's
      > a make or break with certain types of filters, as
      > some have been
      > discussing recently. At the very least, a hand turn
      > Zassenhaus will do
      > the trick nicely.
      >
      > Mike
      >




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    • Michael Eyre
      Speaking of grinders... what do you all use? I ve got a big Faema espresso grinder here, that ll grind anything and everything uniformly and fast. I ve found
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 23 10:44 AM
        Speaking of grinders... what do you all use? I've got a big Faema
        espresso grinder here, that'll grind anything and everything uniformly
        and fast. I've found the grind to be the key to vac pot enjoyment. It's
        a make or break with certain types of filters, as some have been
        discussing recently. At the very least, a hand turn Zassenhaus will do
        the trick nicely.

        Mike
      • s_annod
        I just got my Rancilio Rocky yesterday and was immediately impressed with the evenness of the grinds. I have been using a KitchenAid Pro Line burr grinder and
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 23 12:27 PM
          I just got my Rancilio Rocky yesterday and was immediately impressed
          with the evenness of the grinds. I have been using a KitchenAid Pro
          Line burr grinder and have had to sift the coffee if I want to use my
          vacpots with the glass filter rods. The grinds are very uneven and
          the powder would choke the vacpots to a stall. I tried Zassenhaus and
          Trosser manual grinders and they were no better. I've read that newer
          Zassenhaus grinders tend to have burr alignment problems and it looks
          like I got one of those. I even tried a Hario manual grinder and it
          was a little better than the others, but the design of the hopper is
          awful. Beans get stuck under and to the side of it.
          Anyway, back to Rocky, my vacpot drew the coffee down nicely on the
          first try. The evenness of the grinds also results in a more even
          extraction of the coffee. It shouldn't take long to find the optimal
          grinder settings for my vacpot coffee.

          Donna
        • Bo Long
          Donna - Even close to the finest grind levels the Rocky will still create particles uniform enough to not stall the glass rod. My Rocky s burrs lasted two
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 23 12:42 PM
            Donna - Even close to the finest grind levels the Rocky will still
            create particles uniform enough to not stall the glass rod. My
            Rocky's burrs lasted two years before finally becoming too dull. It's
            not too hard to replace them yourself if you are just the littlest
            bit "handy." The Rocky is at the lower end of fine grinders aimed
            mainly at the home espresso market, but it is more than adequate for
            vacpotting. EML

            --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "s_annod"
            <chaekyr@...> wrote:
            >
            > I just got my Rancilio Rocky yesterday and was immediately
            impressed
            > with the evenness of the grinds. I have been using a KitchenAid
            Pro
            > Line burr grinder and have had to sift the coffee if I want to use
            my
            > vacpots with the glass filter rods. The grinds are very uneven and
            > the powder would choke the vacpots to a stall. I tried Zassenhaus
            and
            > Trosser manual grinders and they were no better. I've read that
            newer
            > Zassenhaus grinders tend to have burr alignment problems and it
            looks
            > like I got one of those. I even tried a Hario manual grinder and
            it
            > was a little better than the others, but the design of the hopper
            is
            > awful. Beans get stuck under and to the side of it.
            > Anyway, back to Rocky, my vacpot drew the coffee down nicely on the
            > first try. The evenness of the grinds also results in a more even
            > extraction of the coffee. It shouldn't take long to find the
            optimal
            > grinder settings for my vacpot coffee.
            >
            > Donna
            >
          • s_annod
            ... Larry, I mentioned in my earlier post that I ve read that there are problems with newer Zassenhaus grinders. I ve also read that suppliers are having
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 23 12:57 PM
              --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Larry Hollenberg
              <larryhollenb@...> wrote:
              >
              > Michael,
              >
              > I have a zassenhaus hand grinder which makes a lot of
              > small dust like particles. Do they still produce
              > them? Or do I just have to try the luck of finding a
              > different one that may not do that.
              > Any hand grinders that are known to be reliable?
              >
              > Larry
              >
              >

              Larry,

              I mentioned in my earlier post that I've read that there are
              problems with newer Zassenhaus grinders. I've also read that
              suppliers are having problems getting new shipments of them.

              Donna
            • Ian Bersten
              It is not only the particles of coffee that control the grind but the macromolecules on each grind that detach and float down to create the back pressure.
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 23 1:02 PM
                It is not only the particles of coffee that control the grind but the macromolecules on each grind that detach and float down to create the back pressure.  Grinding is a very complicated subject. The number of macromolecules is in some way related to the freshness of the bean and the way it fractures when it is gound.

                Ian

                Donna - Even close to the finest grind levels the Rocky will still
                create particles uniform enough to not stall the glass rod. My
                Rocky's burrs lasted two years before finally becoming too dull. It's
                not too hard to replace them yourself if you are just the littlest
                bit "handy." The Rocky is at the lower end of fine grinders aimed
                mainly at the home espresso market, but it is more than adequate for
                vacpotting. EML

                --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "s_annod"
                <chaekyr@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just got my Rancilio Rocky yesterday and was immediately
                impressed
                > with the evenness of the grinds. I have been using a KitchenAid
                Pro
                > Line burr grinder and have had to sift the coffee if I want to use
                my
                > vacpots with the glass filter rods. The grinds are very uneven and
                > the powder would choke the vacpots to a stall. I tried Zassenhaus
                and
                > Trosser manual grinders and they were no better. I've read that
                newer
                > Zassenhaus grinders tend to have burr alignment problems and it
                looks
                > like I got one of those. I even tried a Hario manual grinder and
                it
                > was a little better than the others, but the design of the hopper
                is
                > awful. Beans get stuck under and to the side of it.
                > Anyway, back to Rocky, my vacpot drew the coffee down nicely on the
                > first try. The evenness of the grinds also results in a more even
                > extraction of the coffee. It shouldn't take long to find the
                optimal
                > grinder settings for my vacpot coffee.
                >
                > Donna
                >



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                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.5/645 - Release Date: 22-Jan-07

                --
                Please note my new addresses:

                Ian Bersten                        
                ianbersten@...           

              • Larry Hollenberg
                Ian, Donna, EML, Even with my old grinders I have found the different kinds of beans can come out with radically different results. Those dark brews get all
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 23 1:35 PM
                  Ian, Donna, EML,

                  Even with my old grinders I have found the different
                  kinds of beans can come out with radically different
                  results. Those dark brews get all sort of gummy and
                  stick to the jar and tend to want to clog. Some of the
                  cheaper columbian ones I had broke into much larger
                  pieces even at that same setting. Would take some
                  getting adjusted to the correct setting for each bean.
                  But no doubt the coffee and ocassional stall might be
                  a lot better if I wasn't using 100 year old grinders
                  and a 60 year old one. Well its still fun.
                  I would hate to see what you guys consider an
                  expensive grinder!

                  Larry


                  --- Ian Bersten <helian@...> wrote:

                  > It is not only the particles of coffee that control
                  > the grind but the
                  > macromolecules on each grind that detach and float
                  > down to create the
                  > back pressure. Grinding is a very complicated
                  > subject. The number of
                  > macromolecules is in some way related to the
                  > freshness of the bean
                  > and the way it fractures when it is gound.
                  >
                  > Ian
                  >
                  > >Donna - Even close to the finest grind levels the
                  > Rocky will still
                  > >create particles uniform enough to not stall the
                  > glass rod. My
                  > >Rocky's burrs lasted two years before finally
                  > becoming too dull. It's
                  > >not too hard to replace them yourself if you are
                  > just the littlest
                  > >bit "handy." The Rocky is at the lower end of fine
                  > grinders aimed
                  > >mainly at the home espresso market, but it is more
                  > than adequate for
                  > >vacpotting. EML
                  > >
                  > >--- In
                  >
                  ><mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%40yahoogroups.com>vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com,
                  >
                  > >"s_annod"
                  > ><chaekyr@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I just got my Rancilio Rocky yesterday and was
                  > immediately
                  > >impressed
                  > > > with the evenness of the grinds. I have been
                  > using a KitchenAid
                  > >Pro
                  > > > Line burr grinder and have had to sift the
                  > coffee if I want to use
                  > >my
                  > > > vacpots with the glass filter rods. The grinds
                  > are very uneven and
                  > > > the powder would choke the vacpots to a stall. I
                  > tried Zassenhaus
                  > >and
                  > > > Trosser manual grinders and they were no better.
                  > I've read that
                  > >newer
                  > > > Zassenhaus grinders tend to have burr alignment
                  > problems and it
                  > >looks
                  > > > like I got one of those. I even tried a Hario
                  > manual grinder and
                  > >it
                  > > > was a little better than the others, but the
                  > design of the hopper
                  > >is
                  > > > awful. Beans get stuck under and to the side of
                  > it.
                  > > > Anyway, back to Rocky, my vacpot drew the coffee
                  > down nicely on the
                  > > > first try. The evenness of the grinds also
                  > results in a more even
                  > > > extraction of the coffee. It shouldn't take long
                  > to find the
                  > >optimal
                  > > > grinder settings for my vacpot coffee.
                  > > >
                  > > > Donna
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.5/645 -
                  > Release Date: 22-Jan-07
                  >
                  > --
                  > Please note my new addresses:
                  >
                  > Ian Bersten
                  > ianbersten@... >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.5/645 -
                  > Release Date: 22-Jan-07
                  >




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                • Larry Hollenberg
                  I had just made a cup of coffee in my little two cup silex and when I got it out I was going to use a glass silex rod, but it had the cloth unit in place, I
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 23 1:43 PM
                    I had just made a cup of coffee in my little two cup
                    silex and when I got it out I was going to use a
                    glass silex rod, but it had the cloth unit in place, I
                    didn't want that so I looked in my storage drawer to
                    see what was left, and I had a Silex Flavor Savor
                    Porcelain filter. So I used that. Even using my
                    antique wall grinder by Crystal, I just noticed there
                    were only maybe a half dozen or so little pieces of
                    grounds that escaped the top during the decent. Thats
                    really not too bad. And if I think about it, Silex was
                    on to something when they named it the Flavor Savor
                    after using the Cloth Porcelain filters. They must
                    have felt like I do that after a bit of use the cloths
                    taint the coffee. You all may not think so, but to my
                    nose and taste I can detect it after a few uses. Why
                    else name it what they did?

                    Larry


                    --- s_annod <chaekyr@...> wrote:

                    > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com,
                    > Larry Hollenberg
                    > <larryhollenb@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Michael,
                    > >
                    > > I have a zassenhaus hand grinder which makes a lot
                    > of
                    > > small dust like particles. Do they still produce
                    > > them? Or do I just have to try the luck of
                    > finding a
                    > > different one that may not do that.
                    > > Any hand grinders that are known to be reliable?
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > Larry,
                    >
                    > I mentioned in my earlier post that I've read that
                    > there are
                    > problems with newer Zassenhaus grinders. I've also
                    > read that
                    > suppliers are having problems getting new shipments
                    > of them.
                    >
                    > Donna
                    >
                    >




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                  • s_annod
                    ... It s ... Thanks, EML. I keep reading that the grinder is one of, if not the most important tool for coffee preparation and my experiences have certainly
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 24 2:39 PM
                      --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, "Bo Long"
                      <long9875@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Donna - Even close to the finest grind levels the Rocky will still
                      > create particles uniform enough to not stall the glass rod. My
                      > Rocky's burrs lasted two years before finally becoming too dull.
                      It's
                      > not too hard to replace them yourself if you are just the littlest
                      > bit "handy." The Rocky is at the lower end of fine grinders aimed
                      > mainly at the home espresso market, but it is more than adequate for
                      > vacpotting. EML
                      >

                      Thanks, EML. I keep reading that the grinder is one of, if not the
                      most important tool for coffee preparation and my experiences have
                      certainly born this out. I forgot to mention that I started out with
                      a blade grinder. "Buy the best grinder you can afford" seems like a
                      mantra. Yet, I would read comments that this or that grinder was
                      adequate for the kinds of coffee that I like to make. That's how I
                      ended up with the KitchenAid Pro Line. I also read that the owners of
                      high end home espresso grinders found that even their French press,
                      drip, vacpot, etc., improved when they upgraded to a grinder like a
                      Mazzer-Mini or a Macap M4. I can afford one of those now, but I was
                      still wondering if they were "overkill" and if Rocky was the right
                      grinder for me.

                      The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to steer me to a Baratza
                      Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders were best for a very
                      fine grind. She even said that people had complained about Rocky at
                      coarse grind settings. This made me wonder if those people were
                      expecting too much from the grinder. The nature of the coffee bean is
                      such that no grind will be perfect. The coarser you go, the more
                      variation in size of grind particles there will be. I understand
                      this. I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and quality in
                      design and construction are going to provide a more uniform grind.
                      She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso being on a par with
                      the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something that would perform
                      better. When I told her that I like to aim for the finest grind I can
                      get away with and adjust the steep time accordingly, even for French
                      press, she said that Rocky would probably work well for me. I am very
                      happy with it.

                      I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid, except that I have
                      seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step up, and, yes, I can
                      taste the difference too. Smell and taste perceptions - this is where
                      everyone differs. My husband is happy with instant or restaurant
                      coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly roasted, ground, and
                      brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of water from the faucet,
                      nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream and sugar. That's
                      the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his own.
                    • s_annod
                      ... the ... the ... of ... Thanks, Ian. I understand that the degree of roast also affects grind and brew. Most of us don t think about or realise that there
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 24 2:55 PM
                        --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bersten
                        <helian@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > It is not only the particles of coffee that control the grind but
                        the
                        > macromolecules on each grind that detach and float down to create
                        the
                        > back pressure. Grinding is a very complicated subject. The number
                        of
                        > macromolecules is in some way related to the freshness of the bean
                        > and the way it fractures when it is gound.
                        >
                        > Ian
                        >

                        Thanks, Ian. I understand that the degree of roast also affects
                        grind and brew. Most of us don't think about or realise that there
                        is so much chemistry and physics involved in making a good cup of
                        coffee.

                        I enjoyed seeing you on the National Geographic show about coffee
                        that aired not too long ago.

                        Donna
                      • Ian Bersten
                        ... I don t want to sound like a know-all but I know what I know and that is that many of the manufacturers have no idea about their grinders. I say this
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 24 3:06 PM

                          The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to steer me to a Baratza
                          Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders were best for a very
                          fine grind.

                          I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know what I know and that is that many of the manufacturers have no idea about their grinders.  I say this after speaking to  manufacturers of commercial espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers design the machine, buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers and aim to get a consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess is that the vendor mentioned above knows less than your dog.  The fineness of grind achieved is controlled by the distance between the grinding blades and if the same distance is et on ten different grinders then the particle size will be the same on average. There will be a difference if the internal cutters are different. This needs to be  checked by a particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from Neuhaus Germany) and I am confident that your vendor has not done this test.

                          In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at $160 which I  am sure would do your job very well.   This is not yet available in the US.


                          She even said that people had complained about Rocky at
                          coarse grind settings.

                          I would take no notice of this statement. I need scientific evidence.


                           This made me wonder if those people were
                          expecting too much from the grinder. The nature of the coffee bean is
                          such that no grind will be perfect.


                          This statement is probably correct





                           The coarser you go, the more
                          variation in size of grind particles there will be. I understand
                          this.


                          Depends very much on the hardness of the beans

                           I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and quality in
                          design and construction are going to provide a more uniform grind.


                          Not sure - cooler for large quantities.  The diameter of the blades is important - go for the largest

                          She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso being on a par with
                          the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something that would perform
                          better. When I told her that I like to aim for the finest grind I can
                          get away with and adjust the steep time accordingly, even for French
                          press, she said that Rocky would probably work well for me. I am very
                          happy with it.


                          I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I do not believe anybody's opinions about anything to do with coffee unless they can back them up with scientific facts.  All the rest is hearsay.

                          Ian


                          I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid, except that I have
                          seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step up, and, yes, I can
                          taste the difference too. Smell and taste perceptions - this is where
                          everyone differs. My husband is happy with instant or restaurant
                          coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly roasted, ground, and
                          brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of water from the faucet,
                          nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream and sugar. That's
                          the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his own.



                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 24-Jan-07

                          --
                          Please note my new addresses:

                          Ian Bersten                        
                          ianbersten@...           

                        • Bo Long
                          Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most of us here are able able to perform on our grinders with respect to vacpots. Does the ground coffee avoid
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 25 8:52 AM
                            Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most of us here are
                            able able to perform on our grinders with respect to vacpots. Does
                            the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter? Is the coffee
                            without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does the coffee have
                            complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with quality of bean?
                            If all those criteria are met, then the grinder works well for our
                            purposes.
                            Personally, that has been my experince with the Rocky using a
                            large variety
                            of beans and degrees of roast although
                            I would have to agree with one of the commenters you quoted that at
                            the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to produce uneven
                            particle sizes (eye test.) EML






                            --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bersten
                            <helian@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to steer me to a
                            Baratza
                            > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders were best for a
                            very
                            > >fine grind.
                            >
                            > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know what I know and
                            that
                            > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea about their
                            > grinders. I say this after speaking to manufacturers of
                            commercial
                            > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers design the
                            machine,
                            > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers and aim to get a
                            > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess is that the vendor
                            > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The fineness of grind
                            > achieved is controlled by the distance between the grinding blades
                            > and if the same distance is et on ten different grinders then the
                            > particle size will be the same on average. There will be a
                            difference
                            > if the internal cutters are different. This needs to be checked by
                            a
                            > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from Neuhaus Germany)
                            and
                            > I am confident that your vendor has not done this test.
                            >
                            > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at $160 which I am
                            > sure would do your job very well. This is not yet available in
                            the US.
                            >
                            >
                            > >She even said that people had complained about Rocky at
                            > >coarse grind settings.
                            >
                            > I would take no notice of this statement. I need scientific
                            evidence.
                            >
                            >
                            > > This made me wonder if those people were
                            > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature of the coffee bean
                            is
                            > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                            >
                            >
                            > This statement is probably correct
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > The coarser you go, the more
                            > >variation in size of grind particles there will be. I understand
                            > >this.
                            >
                            >
                            > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                            >
                            > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and quality in
                            > >design and construction are going to provide a more uniform grind.
                            >
                            >
                            > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The diameter of the blades
                            > is important - go for the largest
                            >
                            > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso being on a par
                            with
                            > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something that would perform
                            > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for the finest grind I
                            can
                            > >get away with and adjust the steep time accordingly, even for
                            French
                            > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work well for me. I am
                            very
                            > >happy with it.
                            >
                            >
                            > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I do not believe
                            > anybody's opinions about anything to do with coffee unless they can
                            > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest is hearsay.
                            >
                            > Ian
                            >
                            >
                            > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid, except that I have
                            > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step up, and, yes, I can
                            > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste perceptions - this is
                            where
                            > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with instant or restaurant
                            > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly roasted, ground, and
                            > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of water from the faucet,
                            > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream and sugar. That's
                            > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his own.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date:
                            24-Jan-07
                            >
                            > --
                            > Please note my new addresses:
                            >
                            > Ian Bersten
                            > ianbersten@...
                            >
                            >
                            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 24-
                            Jan-07
                            >
                          • Larry Hollenberg
                            EML. Would the sediment be considered body that some look for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 25 11:54 AM
                              EML.

                              Would the sediment be considered "body" that some look
                              for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly
                              muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                              everything, at least till I get to the bottom?
                              Actually as some of my fun trying different things, I
                              have gone between boiling, infuse, several drip kinds,
                              some with paper some with out, to vacuum pots, using
                              the same coffees which I think I mentioned recently. I
                              found that some coffees are better with one than
                              another and not all feel into one pot as the best
                              taste for that bean, if you get the drift.

                              Larry



                              --- Bo Long <long9875@...> wrote:

                              > Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most
                              > of us here are
                              > able able to perform on our grinders with respect to
                              > vacpots. Does
                              > the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter?
                              > Is the coffee
                              > without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does
                              > the coffee have
                              > complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with
                              > quality of bean?
                              > If all those criteria are met, then the grinder
                              > works well for our
                              > purposes.
                              > Personally, that has been my experince with the
                              > Rocky using a
                              > large variety
                              > of beans and degrees of roast although
                              > I would have to agree with one of the commenters you
                              > quoted that at
                              > the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to
                              > produce uneven
                              > particle sizes (eye test.) EML
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian
                              > Bersten
                              > <helian@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to
                              > steer me to a
                              > Baratza
                              > > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders
                              > were best for a
                              > very
                              > > >fine grind.
                              > >
                              > > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know
                              > what I know and
                              > that
                              > > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea
                              > about their
                              > > grinders. I say this after speaking to
                              > manufacturers of
                              > commercial
                              > > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers
                              > design the
                              > machine,
                              > > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers
                              > and aim to get a
                              > > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess
                              > is that the vendor
                              > > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The
                              > fineness of grind
                              > > achieved is controlled by the distance between the
                              > grinding blades
                              > > and if the same distance is et on ten different
                              > grinders then the
                              > > particle size will be the same on average. There
                              > will be a
                              > difference
                              > > if the internal cutters are different. This needs
                              > to be checked by
                              > a
                              > > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from
                              > Neuhaus Germany)
                              > and
                              > > I am confident that your vendor has not done this
                              > test.
                              > >
                              > > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at
                              > $160 which I am
                              > > sure would do your job very well. This is not
                              > yet available in
                              > the US.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >She even said that people had complained about
                              > Rocky at
                              > > >coarse grind settings.
                              > >
                              > > I would take no notice of this statement. I need
                              > scientific
                              > evidence.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > This made me wonder if those people were
                              > > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature
                              > of the coffee bean
                              > is
                              > > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > This statement is probably correct
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > The coarser you go, the more
                              > > >variation in size of grind particles there will
                              > be. I understand
                              > > >this.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                              > >
                              > > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and
                              > quality in
                              > > >design and construction are going to provide a
                              > more uniform grind.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The
                              > diameter of the blades
                              > > is important - go for the largest
                              > >
                              > > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso
                              > being on a par
                              > with
                              > > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something
                              > that would perform
                              > > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for
                              > the finest grind I
                              > can
                              > > >get away with and adjust the steep time
                              > accordingly, even for
                              > French
                              > > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work
                              > well for me. I am
                              > very
                              > > >happy with it.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I
                              > do not believe
                              > > anybody's opinions about anything to do with
                              > coffee unless they can
                              > > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest
                              > is hearsay.
                              > >
                              > > Ian
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid,
                              > except that I have
                              > > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step
                              > up, and, yes, I can
                              > > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste
                              > perceptions - this is
                              > where
                              > > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with
                              > instant or restaurant
                              > > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly
                              > roasted, ground, and
                              > > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of
                              > water from the faucet,
                              > > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream
                              > and sugar. That's
                              > > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his
                              > own.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651
                              > - Release Date:
                              > 24-Jan-07
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > Please note my new addresses:
                              > >
                              > > Ian Bersten
                              > > ianbersten@...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 -
                              > Release Date: 24-
                              > Jan-07
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >




                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
                              We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                              (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                              http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
                            • Ian Bersten
                              If you want to really test for muddiness pour the brew through a paper filter for coffee. A tissue will probably do provided you pass boiling water through it
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 25 12:59 PM
                                If you want to really test for muddiness pour the brew through a paper filter for coffee. A tissue will probably do provided you pass boiling water through it to take away any off taste.

                                Ian

                                At 03:52 AM 26-01-07, you wrote:

                                Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most of us here are
                                able able to perform on our grinders with respect to vacpots. Does
                                the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter? Is the coffee
                                without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does the coffee have
                                complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with quality of bean?
                                If all those criteria are met, then the grinder works well for our
                                purposes.
                                Personally, that has been my experince with the Rocky using a
                                large variety
                                of beans and degrees of roast although
                                I would have to agree with one of the commenters you quoted that at
                                the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to produce uneven
                                particle sizes (eye test.) EML

                                --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bersten
                                <helian@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to steer me to a
                                Baratza
                                > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders were best for a
                                very
                                > >fine grind.
                                >
                                > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know what I know and
                                that
                                > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea about their
                                > grinders. I say this after speaking to manufacturers of
                                commercial
                                > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers design the
                                machine,
                                > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers and aim to get a
                                > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess is that the vendor
                                > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The fineness of grind
                                > achieved is controlled by the distance between the grinding blades
                                > and if the same distance is et on ten different grinders then the
                                > particle size will be the same on average. There will be a
                                difference
                                > if the internal cutters are different. This needs to be checked by
                                a
                                > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from Neuhaus Germany)
                                and
                                > I am confident that your vendor has not done this test.
                                >
                                > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at $160 which I am
                                > sure would do your job very well. This is not yet available in
                                the US.
                                >
                                >
                                > >She even said that people had complained about Rocky at
                                > >coarse grind settings.
                                >
                                > I would take no notice of this statement. I need scientific
                                evidence.
                                >
                                >
                                > > This made me wonder if those people were
                                > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature of the coffee bean
                                is
                                > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                                >
                                >
                                > This statement is probably correct
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > The coarser you go, the more
                                > >variation in size of grind particles there will be. I understand
                                > >this.
                                >
                                >
                                > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                                >
                                > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and quality in
                                > >design and construction are going to provide a more uniform grind.
                                >
                                >
                                > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The diameter of the blades
                                > is important - go for the largest
                                >
                                > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso being on a par
                                with
                                > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something that would perform
                                > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for the finest grind I
                                can
                                > >get away with and adjust the steep time accordingly, even for
                                French
                                > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work well for me. I am
                                very
                                > >happy with it.
                                >
                                >
                                > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I do not believe
                                > anybody's opinions about anything to do with coffee unless they can
                                > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest is hearsay.
                                >
                                > Ian
                                >
                                >
                                > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid, except that I have
                                > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step up, and, yes, I can
                                > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste perceptions - this is
                                where
                                > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with instant or restaurant
                                > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly roasted, ground, and
                                > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of water from the faucet,
                                > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream and sugar. That's
                                > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his own.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date:
                                24-Jan-07
                                >
                                > --
                                > Please note my new addresses:
                                >
                                > Ian Bersten
                                > ianbersten@...
                                >
                                >
                                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 24-
                                Jan-07
                                >



                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 24-Jan-07

                                --
                                Please note my new addresses:

                                Ian Bersten                        
                                ianbersten@...           

                              • Bo Long
                                Larry - I have always perceived body to mean a heavy mouth feel, but there s probably a more scientific characterization. Myself, I can t stand mud in
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 25 3:55 PM
                                  Larry - I have always perceived "body" to mean a "heavy mouth feel,"
                                  but there's probably a more scientific characterization. Myself, I
                                  can't stand mud in suspension, so I am biased that way. It always
                                  taste too tannic to me. With a good grind from a good grinder there
                                  is no mud in my coffee when using the glass filter rod even with an
                                  espresso grind. EML


                                  --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Larry Hollenberg
                                  <larryhollenb@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > EML.
                                  >
                                  > Would the sediment be considered "body" that some look
                                  > for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly
                                  > muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                                  > everything, at least till I get to the bottom?
                                  > Actually as some of my fun trying different things, I
                                  > have gone between boiling, infuse, several drip kinds,
                                  > some with paper some with out, to vacuum pots, using
                                  > the same coffees which I think I mentioned recently. I
                                  > found that some coffees are better with one than
                                  > another and not all feel into one pot as the best
                                  > taste for that bean, if you get the drift.
                                  >
                                  > Larry
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- Bo Long <long9875@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most
                                  > > of us here are
                                  > > able able to perform on our grinders with respect to
                                  > > vacpots. Does
                                  > > the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter?
                                  > > Is the coffee
                                  > > without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does
                                  > > the coffee have
                                  > > complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with
                                  > > quality of bean?
                                  > > If all those criteria are met, then the grinder
                                  > > works well for our
                                  > > purposes.
                                  > > Personally, that has been my experince with the
                                  > > Rocky using a
                                  > > large variety
                                  > > of beans and degrees of roast although
                                  > > I would have to agree with one of the commenters you
                                  > > quoted that at
                                  > > the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to
                                  > > produce uneven
                                  > > particle sizes (eye test.) EML
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian
                                  > > Bersten
                                  > > <helian@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to
                                  > > steer me to a
                                  > > Baratza
                                  > > > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders
                                  > > were best for a
                                  > > very
                                  > > > >fine grind.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know
                                  > > what I know and
                                  > > that
                                  > > > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea
                                  > > about their
                                  > > > grinders. I say this after speaking to
                                  > > manufacturers of
                                  > > commercial
                                  > > > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers
                                  > > design the
                                  > > machine,
                                  > > > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers
                                  > > and aim to get a
                                  > > > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess
                                  > > is that the vendor
                                  > > > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The
                                  > > fineness of grind
                                  > > > achieved is controlled by the distance between the
                                  > > grinding blades
                                  > > > and if the same distance is et on ten different
                                  > > grinders then the
                                  > > > particle size will be the same on average. There
                                  > > will be a
                                  > > difference
                                  > > > if the internal cutters are different. This needs
                                  > > to be checked by
                                  > > a
                                  > > > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from
                                  > > Neuhaus Germany)
                                  > > and
                                  > > > I am confident that your vendor has not done this
                                  > > test.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at
                                  > > $160 which I am
                                  > > > sure would do your job very well. This is not
                                  > > yet available in
                                  > > the US.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >She even said that people had complained about
                                  > > Rocky at
                                  > > > >coarse grind settings.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I would take no notice of this statement. I need
                                  > > scientific
                                  > > evidence.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > This made me wonder if those people were
                                  > > > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature
                                  > > of the coffee bean
                                  > > is
                                  > > > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This statement is probably correct
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > The coarser you go, the more
                                  > > > >variation in size of grind particles there will
                                  > > be. I understand
                                  > > > >this.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and
                                  > > quality in
                                  > > > >design and construction are going to provide a
                                  > > more uniform grind.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The
                                  > > diameter of the blades
                                  > > > is important - go for the largest
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso
                                  > > being on a par
                                  > > with
                                  > > > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something
                                  > > that would perform
                                  > > > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for
                                  > > the finest grind I
                                  > > can
                                  > > > >get away with and adjust the steep time
                                  > > accordingly, even for
                                  > > French
                                  > > > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work
                                  > > well for me. I am
                                  > > very
                                  > > > >happy with it.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I
                                  > > do not believe
                                  > > > anybody's opinions about anything to do with
                                  > > coffee unless they can
                                  > > > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest
                                  > > is hearsay.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ian
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid,
                                  > > except that I have
                                  > > > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step
                                  > > up, and, yes, I can
                                  > > > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste
                                  > > perceptions - this is
                                  > > where
                                  > > > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with
                                  > > instant or restaurant
                                  > > > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly
                                  > > roasted, ground, and
                                  > > > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of
                                  > > water from the faucet,
                                  > > > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream
                                  > > and sugar. That's
                                  > > > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his
                                  > > own.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  > > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651
                                  > > - Release Date:
                                  > > 24-Jan-07
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --
                                  > > > Please note my new addresses:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ian Bersten
                                  > > > ianbersten@
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  > > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 -
                                  > > Release Date: 24-
                                  > > Jan-07
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ______________________________________________________________________
                                  ______________
                                  > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                  > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                  > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
                                  >
                                • Ian Bersten
                                  Larry, You have hit the nail on the head. Body is connected with solids in the cup. That is why I take evaluations through mouth feel with a grain of salt -
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 25 4:08 PM
                                    Larry,

                                    You have hit the nail on the head.  Body is connected with solids in the cup. That is why I take evaluations through mouth feel with a grain of salt - which changes the flavour as well.

                                    Ian
                                    At 06:54 AM 26-01-07, you wrote:

                                    EML.

                                    Would the sediment be considered "body" that some look
                                    for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly
                                    muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                                    everything, at least till I get to the bottom?
                                    Actually as some of my fun trying different things, I
                                    have gone between boiling, infuse, several drip kinds,
                                    some with paper some with out, to vacuum pots, using
                                    the same coffees which I think I mentioned recently. I
                                    found that some coffees are better with one than
                                    another and not all feel into one pot as the best
                                    taste for that bean, if you get the drift.

                                    Larry

                                    --- Bo Long <long9875@...> wrote:

                                    > Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most
                                    > of us here are
                                    > able able to perform on our grinders with respect to
                                    > vacpots. Does
                                    > the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter?
                                    > Is the coffee
                                    > without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does
                                    > the coffee have
                                    > complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with
                                    > quality of bean?
                                    > If all those criteria are met, then the grinder
                                    > works well for our
                                    > purposes.
                                    > Personally, that has been my experince with the
                                    > Rocky using a
                                    > large variety
                                    > of beans and degrees of roast although
                                    > I would have to agree with one of the commenters you
                                    > quoted that at
                                    > the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to
                                    > produce uneven
                                    > particle sizes (eye test.) EML
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian
                                    > Bersten
                                    > <helian@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to
                                    > steer me to a
                                    > Baratza
                                    > > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders
                                    > were best for a
                                    > very
                                    > > >fine grind.
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know
                                    > what I know and
                                    > that
                                    > > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea
                                    > about their
                                    > > grinders. I say this after speaking to
                                    > manufacturers of
                                    > commercial
                                    > > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers
                                    > design the
                                    > machine,
                                    > > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers
                                    > and aim to get a
                                    > > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess
                                    > is that the vendor
                                    > > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The
                                    > fineness of grind
                                    > > achieved is controlled by the distance between the
                                    > grinding blades
                                    > > and if the same distance is et on ten different
                                    > grinders then the
                                    > > particle size will be the same on average. There
                                    > will be a
                                    > difference
                                    > > if the internal cutters are different. This needs
                                    > to be checked by
                                    > a
                                    > > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from
                                    > Neuhaus Germany)
                                    > and
                                    > > I am confident that your vendor has not done this
                                    > test.
                                    > >
                                    > > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at
                                    > $160 which I am
                                    > > sure would do your job very well. This is not
                                    > yet available in
                                    > the US.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >She even said that people had complained about
                                    > Rocky at
                                    > > >coarse grind settings.
                                    > >
                                    > > I would take no notice of this statement. I need
                                    > scientific
                                    > evidence.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > This made me wonder if those people were
                                    > > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature
                                    > of the coffee bean
                                    > is
                                    > > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > This statement is probably correct
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > The coarser you go, the more
                                    > > >variation in size of grind particles there will
                                    > be. I understand
                                    > > >this.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                                    > >
                                    > > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and
                                    > quality in
                                    > > >design and construction are going to provide a
                                    > more uniform grind.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The
                                    > diameter of the blades
                                    > > is important - go for the largest
                                    > >
                                    > > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso
                                    > being on a par
                                    > with
                                    > > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something
                                    > that would perform
                                    > > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for
                                    > the finest grind I
                                    > can
                                    > > >get away with and adjust the steep time
                                    > accordingly, even for
                                    > French
                                    > > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work
                                    > well for me. I am
                                    > very
                                    > > >happy with it.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I
                                    > do not believe
                                    > > anybody's opinions about anything to do with
                                    > coffee unless they can
                                    > > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest
                                    > is hearsay.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ian
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid,
                                    > except that I have
                                    > > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step
                                    > up, and, yes, I can
                                    > > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste
                                    > perceptions - this is
                                    > where
                                    > > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with
                                    > instant or restaurant
                                    > > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly
                                    > roasted, ground, and
                                    > > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of
                                    > water from the faucet,
                                    > > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream
                                    > and sugar. That's
                                    > > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his
                                    > own.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651
                                    > - Release Date:
                                    > 24-Jan-07
                                    > >
                                    > > --
                                    > > Please note my new addresses:
                                    > >
                                    > > Ian Bersten
                                    > > ianbersten@...
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                    > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 -
                                    > Release Date: 24-
                                    > Jan-07
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    __________________________________________________________
                                    We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                    (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                    http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265


                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release Date: 25-Jan-07

                                    --
                                    Please note my new addresses:

                                    Ian Bersten                        
                                    ianbersten@...           

                                  • cal
                                    Hello everyone, I have a GE Automatic vac pot and was experimenting with it today. I love this unit too, my favorite. GE had the most slick, advanced unit,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 26 12:38 PM
                                      Hello everyone,

                                      I have a GE Automatic vac pot and was experimenting with it today.  I love this unit too, my favorite.  GE had the most slick, advanced unit, kinda space age at would have been said back then.  The handle on the top is perfect for safely removing the top.  The gasket is the best throught out, and after 55 years is still like new.  I'm surprized other makers didnt follow some of the concepts in the GE pot. 

                                      Not sure how many of you have this unit but I tried and experiment where I left the pot on the burner after the burner auto-shut-off.  Took about 10 minutes before the brew started to return.  Even at that rate the brew was not bitter and was not even that strong.  The heat apparently is not high enough to bring out the alkaloids.


                                      Gary
                                    • larry hollenberg
                                      Hi Gary, Yes I agree the GE is a slick looking unit for its time. You are also right on track on the one big draw back for an Automatic, is the return time of
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 27 6:33 AM
                                        Hi Gary,

                                        Yes I agree the GE is a slick looking unit for its time. You are also right on track on the one
                                        big draw back for an Automatic, is the return time of the water. For some reason the GE
                                        seems to linger even longer than most other stoves when the heat is turned off. My taster
                                        must be too picky, but I could always detect that over cooked effect if I let it go though the
                                        whole cycle on the stove. One member made a suggestion which I never tried, but sounds
                                        interesting. He said he sits a small table fan next to the pot and the air blowing across the
                                        stove cools it in a lot quicker time. Never tried it though to see what happened. Another
                                        suggestion of course is what your doing, remove the pot when the brew time you like is
                                        over. If you do that there is nothing wrong with the GE.

                                        Larry


                                        --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, cal <calisgon@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello everyone,
                                        >
                                        > I have a GE Automatic vac pot and was experimenting with it today. I love this unit too,
                                        my favorite. GE had the most slick, advanced unit, kinda space age at would have been
                                        said back then. The handle on the top is perfect for safely removing the top. The gasket
                                        is the best throught out, and after 55 years is still like new. I'm surprized other makers
                                        didnt follow some of the concepts in the GE pot.
                                        >
                                        > Not sure how many of you have this unit but I tried and experiment where I left the pot
                                        on the burner after the burner auto-shut-off. Took about 10 minutes before the brew
                                        started to return. Even at that rate the brew was not bitter and was not even that strong.
                                        The heat apparently is not high enough to bring out the alkaloids.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Gary
                                        >
                                      • cal
                                        Hi Larry, Actually I was the one who uses the fan, it works actually, cuts time in half. Regarding flavor, I only use organic coffee I roast which makes all
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 27 7:36 AM
                                          Hi Larry,

                                          Actually I was the one who uses the fan, it works actually, cuts time in half.  Regarding flavor, I only use organic coffee I roast which makes all the difference.  If I were to use the typical roasted beans then the flavor goes bad quickly, even in medium hot water.  Pre-roasted beans usually have been roasted months ago and harbor all sorts of bitterness just ready to be released.


                                          Gary

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: larry hollenberg <larryhollenb@...>
                                          To: vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:33:23 AM
                                          Subject: [vacuumcoffeepotcollector] Re: Ge Automatic.

                                          Hi Gary,

                                          Yes I agree the GE is a slick looking unit for its time. You are also right on track on the one
                                          big draw back for an Automatic, is the return time of the water. For some reason the GE
                                          seems to linger even longer than most other stoves when the heat is turned off. My taster
                                          must be too picky, but I could always detect that over cooked effect if I let it go though the
                                          whole cycle on the stove. One member made a suggestion which I never tried, but sounds
                                          interesting. He said he sits a small table fan next to the pot and the air blowing across the
                                          stove cools it in a lot quicker time. Never tried it though to see what happened. Another
                                          suggestion of course is what your doing, remove the pot when the brew time you like is
                                          over. If you do that there is nothing wrong with the GE.

                                          Larry

                                          --- In vacuumcoffeepotcoll ector@yahoogroup s.com, cal <calisgon@.. .> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello everyone,
                                          >
                                          > I have a GE Automatic vac pot and was experimenting with it today. I love this unit too,
                                          my favorite. GE had the most slick, advanced unit, kinda space age at would have been
                                          said back then. The handle on the top is perfect for safely removing the top. The gasket
                                          is the best throught out, and after 55 years is still like new. I'm surprized other makers
                                          didnt follow some of the concepts in the GE pot.
                                          >
                                          > Not sure how many of you have this unit but I tried and experiment where I left the pot
                                          on the burner after the burner auto-shut-off. Took about 10 minutes before the brew
                                          started to return. Even at that rate the brew was not bitter and was not even that strong.
                                          The heat apparently is not high enough to bring out the alkaloids.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Gary
                                          >


                                        • Bo Long
                                          Ian - Are you suggesting here that there is a scientific protocol for determining body independent of the cuppers subjectve impressions of mouth feel and
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 29 11:28 AM
                                            Ian - Are you suggesting here that there is a scientific protocol for
                                            determining "body" independent of the cuppers' subjectve impressions
                                            of mouth feel and that this protocol would overrule the cuppers'
                                            evaluations? EML

                                            --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bersten
                                            <helian@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Larry,
                                            >
                                            > You have hit the nail on the head. Body is connected with solids
                                            in
                                            > the cup. That is why I take evaluations through mouth feel with a
                                            > grain of salt - which changes the flavour as well.
                                            >
                                            > Ian
                                            > At 06:54 AM 26-01-07, you wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >EML.
                                            > >
                                            > >Would the sediment be considered "body" that some look
                                            > >for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly
                                            > >muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                                            > >everything, at least till I get to the bottom?
                                            > >Actually as some of my fun trying different things, I
                                            > >have gone between boiling, infuse, several drip kinds,
                                            > >some with paper some with out, to vacuum pots, using
                                            > >the same coffees which I think I mentioned recently. I
                                            > >found that some coffees are better with one than
                                            > >another and not all feel into one pot as the best
                                            > >taste for that bean, if you get the drift.
                                            > >
                                            > >Larry
                                            > >
                                            > >--- Bo Long <<mailto:long9875%40yahoo.com>long9875@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most
                                            > > > of us here are
                                            > > > able able to perform on our grinders with respect to
                                            > > > vacpots. Does
                                            > > > the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter?
                                            > > > Is the coffee
                                            > > > without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does
                                            > > > the coffee have
                                            > > > complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with
                                            > > > quality of bean?
                                            > > > If all those criteria are met, then the grinder
                                            > > > works well for our
                                            > > > purposes.
                                            > > > Personally, that has been my experince with the
                                            > > > Rocky using a
                                            > > > large variety
                                            > > > of beans and degrees of roast although
                                            > > > I would have to agree with one of the commenters you
                                            > > > quoted that at
                                            > > > the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to
                                            > > > produce uneven
                                            > > > particle sizes (eye test.) EML
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In
                                            > > <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%
                                            40yahoogroups.com>vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > > Ian
                                            > > > Bersten
                                            > > > <helian@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to
                                            > > > steer me to a
                                            > > > Baratza
                                            > > > > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders
                                            > > > were best for a
                                            > > > very
                                            > > > > >fine grind.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know
                                            > > > what I know and
                                            > > > that
                                            > > > > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea
                                            > > > about their
                                            > > > > grinders. I say this after speaking to
                                            > > > manufacturers of
                                            > > > commercial
                                            > > > > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers
                                            > > > design the
                                            > > > machine,
                                            > > > > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers
                                            > > > and aim to get a
                                            > > > > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess
                                            > > > is that the vendor
                                            > > > > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The
                                            > > > fineness of grind
                                            > > > > achieved is controlled by the distance between the
                                            > > > grinding blades
                                            > > > > and if the same distance is et on ten different
                                            > > > grinders then the
                                            > > > > particle size will be the same on average. There
                                            > > > will be a
                                            > > > difference
                                            > > > > if the internal cutters are different. This needs
                                            > > > to be checked by
                                            > > > a
                                            > > > > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from
                                            > > > Neuhaus Germany)
                                            > > > and
                                            > > > > I am confident that your vendor has not done this
                                            > > > test.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at
                                            > > > $160 which I am
                                            > > > > sure would do your job very well. This is not
                                            > > > yet available in
                                            > > > the US.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > >She even said that people had complained about
                                            > > > Rocky at
                                            > > > > >coarse grind settings.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I would take no notice of this statement. I need
                                            > > > scientific
                                            > > > evidence.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > This made me wonder if those people were
                                            > > > > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature
                                            > > > of the coffee bean
                                            > > > is
                                            > > > > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > This statement is probably correct
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > The coarser you go, the more
                                            > > > > >variation in size of grind particles there will
                                            > > > be. I understand
                                            > > > > >this.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and
                                            > > > quality in
                                            > > > > >design and construction are going to provide a
                                            > > > more uniform grind.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The
                                            > > > diameter of the blades
                                            > > > > is important - go for the largest
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso
                                            > > > being on a par
                                            > > > with
                                            > > > > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something
                                            > > > that would perform
                                            > > > > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for
                                            > > > the finest grind I
                                            > > > can
                                            > > > > >get away with and adjust the steep time
                                            > > > accordingly, even for
                                            > > > French
                                            > > > > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work
                                            > > > well for me. I am
                                            > > > very
                                            > > > > >happy with it.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I
                                            > > > do not believe
                                            > > > > anybody's opinions about anything to do with
                                            > > > coffee unless they can
                                            > > > > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest
                                            > > > is hearsay.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Ian
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid,
                                            > > > except that I have
                                            > > > > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step
                                            > > > up, and, yes, I can
                                            > > > > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste
                                            > > > perceptions - this is
                                            > > > where
                                            > > > > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with
                                            > > > instant or restaurant
                                            > > > > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly
                                            > > > roasted, ground, and
                                            > > > > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of
                                            > > > water from the faucet,
                                            > > > > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream
                                            > > > and sugar. That's
                                            > > > > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his
                                            > > > own.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                            > > > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                            > > > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651
                                            > > > - Release Date:
                                            > > > 24-Jan-07
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --
                                            > > > > Please note my new addresses:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Ian Bersten
                                            > > > > ianbersten@
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                            > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                            > > > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 -
                                            > > > Release Date: 24-
                                            > > > Jan-07
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >__________________________________________________________
                                            > >We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                            > >(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                            >
                                            ><http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265>http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/
                                            265
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                            > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                            > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release Date:
                                            25-Jan-07
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Please note my new addresses:
                                            >
                                            > Ian Bersten
                                            > ianbersten@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                            > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release Date: 25-
                                            Jan-07
                                            >
                                          • Ian Bersten
                                            Bo, I know how body is defined but the precise conditions for coffee may not exist. If the same grinder was specified and the exact grind with distribution
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 29 2:16 PM
                                              Bo,

                                              I know how 'body' is defined but the precise conditions for coffee may not exist. If the same grinder was specified and the exact grind with distribution of grind particle size specified, then perhaps and I repeat perhaps it would be possible to talk meaningfully about body.
                                              Most discussion about body is related to a tasting made with a brew  wehn water is poured over coffee and the grounds allowed to settle and then the liquor is tasted. It is anybody's guess just how free of solid particles the liquor is at this stage.

                                              I believe I have read that the level of acidity changes the body of the coffee.

                                              Body has a scientific definition which is I think, ' the level of soluble solids' which can be determined scientifically.

                                              It is established that the level of solids rises with the darkness of the roast.

                                              The reason that much American coffee used to be drunk 'half and half' was the level of fat was higher which increased the body in the cup and improved the flavour as the addition of a little fat will do to just about any food.

                                              In short - there are figure for soluble solids' results for many coffees

                                              Ian


                                              At 06:28 AM 30-01-07, you wrote:

                                              Ian - Are you suggesting here that there is a scientific protocol for
                                              determining "body" independent of the cuppers' subjectve impressions
                                              of mouth feel and that this protocol would overrule the cuppers'
                                              evaluations? EML

                                              --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bersten
                                              <helian@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Larry,
                                              >
                                              > You have hit the nail on the head. Body is connected with solids
                                              in
                                              > the cup. That is why I take evaluations through mouth feel with a
                                              > grain of salt - which changes the flavour as well.
                                              >
                                              > Ian
                                              > At 06:54 AM 26-01-07, you wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >EML.
                                              > >
                                              > >Would the sediment be considered "body" that some look
                                              > >for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly
                                              > >muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                                              > >everything, at least till I get to the bottom?
                                              > >Actually as some of my fun trying different things, I
                                              > >have gone between boiling, infuse, several drip kinds,
                                              > >some with paper some with out, to vacuum pots, using
                                              > >the same coffees which I think I mentioned recently. I
                                              > >found that some coffees are better with one than
                                              > >another and not all feel into one pot as the best
                                              > >taste for that bean, if you get the drift.
                                              > >
                                              > >Larry
                                              > >
                                              > >--- Bo Long << mailto:long9875%40yahoo.com>long9875@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most
                                              > > > of us here are
                                              > > > able able to perform on our grinders with respect to
                                              > > > vacpots. Does
                                              > > > the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter?
                                              > > > Is the coffee
                                              > > > without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does
                                              > > > the coffee have
                                              > > > complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with
                                              > > > quality of bean?
                                              > > > If all those criteria are met, then the grinder
                                              > > > works well for our
                                              > > > purposes.
                                              > > > Personally, that has been my experince with the
                                              > > > Rocky using a
                                              > > > large variety
                                              > > > of beans and degrees of roast although
                                              > > > I would have to agree with one of the commenters you
                                              > > > quoted that at
                                              > > > the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to
                                              > > > produce uneven
                                              > > > particle sizes (eye test.) EML
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In
                                              > > <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%
                                              40yahoogroups.com> vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com,
                                              > > Ian
                                              > > > Bersten
                                              > > > <helian@> wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to
                                              > > > steer me to a
                                              > > > Baratza
                                              > > > > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders
                                              > > > were best for a
                                              > > > very
                                              > > > > >fine grind.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know
                                              > > > what I know and
                                              > > > that
                                              > > > > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea
                                              > > > about their
                                              > > > > grinders. I say this after speaking to
                                              > > > manufacturers of
                                              > > > commercial
                                              > > > > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers
                                              > > > design the
                                              > > > machine,
                                              > > > > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers
                                              > > > and aim to get a
                                              > > > > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess
                                              > > > is that the vendor
                                              > > > > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The
                                              > > > fineness of grind
                                              > > > > achieved is controlled by the distance between the
                                              > > > grinding blades
                                              > > > > and if the same distance is et on ten different
                                              > > > grinders then the
                                              > > > > particle size will be the same on average. There
                                              > > > will be a
                                              > > > difference
                                              > > > > if the internal cutters are different. This needs
                                              > > > to be checked by
                                              > > > a
                                              > > > > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from
                                              > > > Neuhaus Germany)
                                              > > > and
                                              > > > > I am confident that your vendor has not done this
                                              > > > test.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at
                                              > > > $160 which I am
                                              > > > > sure would do your job very well. This is not
                                              > > > yet available in
                                              > > > the US.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > >She even said that people had complained about
                                              > > > Rocky at
                                              > > > > >coarse grind settings.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I would take no notice of this statement. I need
                                              > > > scientific
                                              > > > evidence.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > This made me wonder if those people were
                                              > > > > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature
                                              > > > of the coffee bean
                                              > > > is
                                              > > > > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > This statement is probably correct
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > The coarser you go, the more
                                              > > > > >variation in size of grind particles there will
                                              > > > be. I understand
                                              > > > > >this.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and
                                              > > > quality in
                                              > > > > >design and construction are going to provide a
                                              > > > more uniform grind.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The
                                              > > > diameter of the blades
                                              > > > > is important - go for the largest
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso
                                              > > > being on a par
                                              > > > with
                                              > > > > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something
                                              > > > that would perform
                                              > > > > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for
                                              > > > the finest grind I
                                              > > > can
                                              > > > > >get away with and adjust the steep time
                                              > > > accordingly, even for
                                              > > > French
                                              > > > > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work
                                              > > > well for me. I am
                                              > > > very
                                              > > > > >happy with it.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I
                                              > > > do not believe
                                              > > > > anybody's opinions about anything to do with
                                              > > > coffee unless they can
                                              > > > > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest
                                              > > > is hearsay.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Ian
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid,
                                              > > > except that I have
                                              > > > > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step
                                              > > > up, and, yes, I can
                                              > > > > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste
                                              > > > perceptions - this is
                                              > > > where
                                              > > > > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with
                                              > > > instant or restaurant
                                              > > > > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly
                                              > > > roasted, ground, and
                                              > > > > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of
                                              > > > water from the faucet,
                                              > > > > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream
                                              > > > and sugar. That's
                                              > > > > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his
                                              > > > own.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                              > > > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                              > > > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651
                                              > > > - Release Date:
                                              > > > 24-Jan-07
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --
                                              > > > > Please note my new addresses:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Ian Bersten
                                              > > > > ianbersten@
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                              > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                              > > > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 -
                                              > > > Release Date: 24-
                                              > > > Jan-07
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >__________________________________________________________
                                              > >We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                              > >(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                              >
                                              >< http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/
                                              265
                                              > >
                                              > >
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                                              > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                                              25-Jan-07
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                                              > --
                                              > Please note my new addresses:
                                              >
                                              > Ian Bersten
                                              > ianbersten@...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                              > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release Date: 25-
                                              Jan-07
                                              >



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                                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                                              --
                                              Please note my new addresses:

                                              Ian Bersten                        
                                              ianbersten@...           

                                            • Bo Long
                                              Ian - this does seem to point to fats and oils being as much a factor as water soluble solids. The darker roasts have more heat polymerized oil and therefore a
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 29 3:12 PM
                                                Ian - this does seem to point to fats and oils being as much a factor
                                                as water soluble solids. The darker roasts have more heat polymerized
                                                oil and therefore a thicker mouth feel. EML

                                                --- In vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bersten
                                                <helian@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Bo,
                                                >
                                                > I know how 'body' is defined but the precise conditions for coffee
                                                > may not exist. If the same grinder was specified and the exact
                                                grind
                                                > with distribution of grind particle size specified, then perhaps
                                                and
                                                > I repeat perhaps it would be possible to talk meaningfully about
                                                body.
                                                > Most discussion about body is related to a tasting made with a
                                                > brew wehn water is poured over coffee and the grounds allowed to
                                                > settle and then the liquor is tasted. It is anybody's guess just
                                                how
                                                > free of solid particles the liquor is at this stage.
                                                >
                                                > I believe I have read that the level of acidity changes the body of
                                                the coffee.
                                                >
                                                > Body has a scientific definition which is I think, ' the level of
                                                > soluble solids' which can be determined scientifically.
                                                >
                                                > It is established that the level of solids rises with the darkness
                                                of
                                                > the roast.
                                                >
                                                > The reason that much American coffee used to be drunk 'half and
                                                half'
                                                > was the level of fat was higher which increased the body in the cup
                                                > and improved the flavour as the addition of a little fat will do to
                                                > just about any food.
                                                >
                                                > In short - there are figure for soluble solids' results for many
                                                coffees
                                                >
                                                > Ian
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > At 06:28 AM 30-01-07, you wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >Ian - Are you suggesting here that there is a scientific protocol
                                                for
                                                > >determining "body" independent of the cuppers' subjectve
                                                impressions
                                                > >of mouth feel and that this protocol would overrule the cuppers'
                                                > >evaluations? EML
                                                > >
                                                > >--- In
                                                > ><mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%
                                                40yahoogroups.com>vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com,
                                                > >Ian Bersten
                                                > ><helian@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Larry,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > You have hit the nail on the head. Body is connected with solids
                                                > >in
                                                > > > the cup. That is why I take evaluations through mouth feel with
                                                a
                                                > > > grain of salt - which changes the flavour as well.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Ian
                                                > > > At 06:54 AM 26-01-07, you wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > >EML.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Would the sediment be considered "body" that some look
                                                > > > >for in coffee? I find I usually like the slightly
                                                > > > >muddier coffee than ones with filters that remove
                                                > > > >everything, at least till I get to the bottom?
                                                > > > >Actually as some of my fun trying different things, I
                                                > > > >have gone between boiling, infuse, several drip kinds,
                                                > > > >some with paper some with out, to vacuum pots, using
                                                > > > >the same coffees which I think I mentioned recently. I
                                                > > > >found that some coffees are better with one than
                                                > > > >another and not all feel into one pot as the best
                                                > > > >taste for that bean, if you get the drift.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Larry
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >--- Bo Long <<mailto:long9875%40yahoo.com>long9875@> wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > > Ian et. al. - There are only three tests that most
                                                > > > > > of us here are
                                                > > > > > able able to perform on our grinders with respect to
                                                > > > > > vacpots. Does
                                                > > > > > the ground coffee avoid stalling the glass filter?
                                                > > > > > Is the coffee
                                                > > > > > without excessive suspended sediment (muddy)? Does
                                                > > > > > the coffee have
                                                > > > > > complexity and richness of flavor commensurate with
                                                > > > > > quality of bean?
                                                > > > > > If all those criteria are met, then the grinder
                                                > > > > > works well for our
                                                > > > > > purposes.
                                                > > > > > Personally, that has been my experince with the
                                                > > > > > Rocky using a
                                                > > > > > large variety
                                                > > > > > of beans and degrees of roast although
                                                > > > > > I would have to agree with one of the commenters you
                                                > > > > > quoted that at
                                                > > > > > the coarse grind settings the Rocky does tend to
                                                > > > > > produce uneven
                                                > > > > > particle sizes (eye test.) EML
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > --- In
                                                > > > > <mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%
                                                > >40yahoogroups.com><mailto:vacuumcoffeepotcollector%
                                                40yahoogroups.com>vacuumcoffeepotcollector@yahoogroups.com,
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Ian
                                                > > > > > Bersten
                                                > > > > > <helian@> wrote:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >The vendor from whom I bought the Rocky tried to
                                                > > > > > steer me to a
                                                > > > > > Baratza
                                                > > > > > > >Virtuoso, saying that the home espresso grinders
                                                > > > > > were best for a
                                                > > > > > very
                                                > > > > > > >fine grind.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I don't want to sound like a know-all but I know
                                                > > > > > what I know and
                                                > > > > > that
                                                > > > > > > is that many of the manufacturers have no idea
                                                > > > > > about their
                                                > > > > > > grinders. I say this after speaking to
                                                > > > > > manufacturers of
                                                > > > > > commercial
                                                > > > > > > espresso shop grinders in Italy. Their engineers
                                                > > > > > design the
                                                > > > > > machine,
                                                > > > > > > buy the blades from around two blade manufacturers
                                                > > > > > and aim to get a
                                                > > > > > > consistent grind for espresso machines. My guess
                                                > > > > > is that the vendor
                                                > > > > > > mentioned above knows less than your dog. The
                                                > > > > > fineness of grind
                                                > > > > > > achieved is controlled by the distance between the
                                                > > > > > grinding blades
                                                > > > > > > and if the same distance is et on ten different
                                                > > > > > grinders then the
                                                > > > > > > particle size will be the same on average. There
                                                > > > > > will be a
                                                > > > > > difference
                                                > > > > > > if the internal cutters are different. This needs
                                                > > > > > to be checked by
                                                > > > > > a
                                                > > > > > > particle size checker (Cost around $12,000 from
                                                > > > > > Neuhaus Germany)
                                                > > > > > and
                                                > > > > > > I am confident that your vendor has not done this
                                                > > > > > test.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > In Australia there is a SUNBEAM grinder retails at
                                                > > > > > $160 which I am
                                                > > > > > > sure would do your job very well. This is not
                                                > > > > > yet available in
                                                > > > > > the US.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >She even said that people had complained about
                                                > > > > > Rocky at
                                                > > > > > > >coarse grind settings.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I would take no notice of this statement. I need
                                                > > > > > scientific
                                                > > > > > evidence.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > This made me wonder if those people were
                                                > > > > > > >expecting too much from the grinder. The nature
                                                > > > > > of the coffee bean
                                                > > > > > is
                                                > > > > > > >such that no grind will be perfect.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > This statement is probably correct
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > The coarser you go, the more
                                                > > > > > > >variation in size of grind particles there will
                                                > > > > > be. I understand
                                                > > > > > > >this.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Depends very much on the hardness of the beans
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > I also understand that bigger sharper burrs and
                                                > > > > > quality in
                                                > > > > > > >design and construction are going to provide a
                                                > > > > > more uniform grind.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Not sure - cooler for large quantities. The
                                                > > > > > diameter of the blades
                                                > > > > > > is important - go for the largest
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >She confirmed what I had read about the Virtuoso
                                                > > > > > being on a par
                                                > > > > > with
                                                > > > > > > >the KitchenAid Pro Line and I wanted something
                                                > > > > > that would perform
                                                > > > > > > >better. When I told her that I like to aim for
                                                > > > > > the finest grind I
                                                > > > > > can
                                                > > > > > > >get away with and adjust the steep time
                                                > > > > > accordingly, even for
                                                > > > > > French
                                                > > > > > > >press, she said that Rocky would probably work
                                                > > > > > well for me. I am
                                                > > > > > very
                                                > > > > > > >happy with it.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I have been in the coffee industry 38 years and I
                                                > > > > > do not believe
                                                > > > > > > anybody's opinions about anything to do with
                                                > > > > > coffee unless they can
                                                > > > > > > back them up with scientific facts. All the rest
                                                > > > > > is hearsay.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Ian
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >I almost wish that I had skipped the KitchenAid,
                                                > > > > > except that I have
                                                > > > > > > >seen for myself that Rocky is a noticeable step
                                                > > > > > up, and, yes, I can
                                                > > > > > > >taste the difference too. Smell and taste
                                                > > > > > perceptions - this is
                                                > > > > > where
                                                > > > > > > >everyone differs. My husband is happy with
                                                > > > > > instant or restaurant
                                                > > > > > > >coffee. If he is going to drink my freshly
                                                > > > > > roasted, ground, and
                                                > > > > > > >brewed coffee, he will cut it with plenty of
                                                > > > > > water from the faucet,
                                                > > > > > > >nuke it in the microwave oven, and then add cream
                                                > > > > > and sugar. That's
                                                > > > > > > >the way he likes and that's fine. To each, his
                                                > > > > > own.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                > > > > > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                > > > > > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651
                                                > > > > > - Release Date:
                                                > > > > > 24-Jan-07
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > --
                                                > > > > > > Please note my new addresses:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Ian Bersten
                                                > > > > > > ianbersten@
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                > > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                > > > > > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 -
                                                > > > > > Release Date: 24-
                                                > > > > > Jan-07
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >__________________________________________________________
                                                > > > >We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                                > > > >(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                ><<http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265>http://tv.yahoo.com/collectio
                                                > > ns/265>http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/
                                                > >265
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                > > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                > > > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release
                                                Date:
                                                > >25-Jan-07
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --
                                                > > > Please note my new addresses:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Ian Bersten
                                                > > > ianbersten@
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                > > > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release
                                                Date: 25-
                                                > >Jan-07
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                > >Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date:
                                                28-Jan-07
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > Please note my new addresses:
                                                >
                                                > Ian Bersten
                                                > ianbersten@...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date: 28-
                                                Jan-07
                                                >
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