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[ustav] Sessional Hymns

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  • Priest Seraphim Holland
    ... I have always heard them sung. I think years ago I heard them in the sticheric melodies, but we sing them in the troparic melodies, and that is my
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 1, 1999
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      > It's interesting to hear that the sessional hymns are to be sung to the
      > troparion melodies. The service books always give a tone for the
      > sessional hymns, but in my experience (ROCA parishes in Australia)
      > they're only ever read. Is this the case elsewhere?

      I have always heard them sung. I think years ago I heard them in
      the sticheric melodies, but we sing them in the troparic melodies,
      and that is my experience elsewhere too. The troparic melodies
      add variety - else almost the entire service uses the sticheric
      melodies.


      Priest Seraphim Holland | seraphim@... Ph: 972/529-2754
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    • Rev. John R. Shaw
      In the overwhelming majority of churches, I think, the Sedalny or Sessional Hymns are merely read. However, I recall them as being sung (on Sundays) in
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 1, 1999
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        In the overwhelming majority of churches, I think, the Sedalny or
        Sessional Hymns are merely read. However, I recall them as being sung
        (on
        Sundays) in Jordanville (i.e. in "my time"--1968-71), only not to the
        Tropar melodies, but to those used in the Sticheras.

        On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Carles, Trevor wrote:

        > It's interesting to hear that the sessional hymns are to be sung to the
        > troparion melodies. The service books always give a tone for the
        > sessional hymns, but in my experience (ROCA parishes in Australia)
        > they're only ever read. Is this the case elsewhere?
        >
        > Deacon James Carles
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Matthew Williams [SMTP:kd4wpr@...]
        > Sent: Monday, 1 March 1999 16:31
        > To: ustav@egroups.com
        > Subject: [ustav] Re: "In thee rejoiceth..." (Was: Choir Cues...)
        >
        > Isaac Lambertsen wrote:
        > >I speculate that this apparent discrepancy may be traced back to
        > >inattentive transcription or typographic error. Alternatively, some
        > >choir-master, somewhere, at some point, may have arbitrarily decided
        > >that Tone VI has a more solemn, and therefore more lenten, sound than
        > >Tone VIII, and set it accordingly. Since sessional hymns are sung to
        > >troparion melodies (one often sees sessional hymns assigned prosomoion
        > >melodies such as, for example, "When the stone had been sealed by the
        > >Jews..."), the avoidance of the bouncy, oompah bass line of the Tone VIII
        > >troparion melody prevalent in the Russian Church for at least the past
        > >150 years, may have been dictated by considerations of euphony.
        >
        > The Tone 6 setting for "In thee rejoiceth..." that I've heard is in the
        > *stichera* tone -- the originator of this setting apparently either did
        > not
        > know that it is a sessional hymn or did not know that sessional hymns
        > are
        > sung in troparion melodies (or both).
        >
        > Another place where I've seen a transition from tone 8 to tone six is at
        > the
        > Beatitudes at typica. The Typicon quite clearly states that the
        > beatitudes
        > (during Lent) are to be chanted in Tone 8. Nevertheless, at Jordanville
        > the
        > Beatitudes are sung the sixth stichera tone. Dr. Clader's music for the
        > Typica (in English) also has the Beatitudes set to Tone 6.
        >
        > Matthew Williams
        >
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      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        In the overwhelming majority of churches, I think, the Sedalny or Sessional Hymns are merely read. However, I recall them as being sung (on Sundays) in
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 1, 1999
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          In the overwhelming majority of churches, I think, the Sedalny or
          Sessional Hymns are merely read. However, I recall them as being sung (on
          Sundays) in Jordanville (i.e. in "my time"--1968-71), only not to the
          Tropar melodies, but to those used in the Sticheras.

          On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Carles, Trevor wrote:

          > It's interesting to hear that the sessional hymns are to be sung to the
          > troparion melodies. The service books always give a tone for the
          > sessional hymns, but in my experience (ROCA parishes in Australia)
          > they're only ever read. Is this the case elsewhere?
          >
          > Deacon James Carles
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Matthew Williams [SMTP:kd4wpr@...]
          > Sent: Monday, 1 March 1999 16:31
          > To: ustav@egroups.com
          > Subject: [ustav] Re: "In thee rejoiceth..." (Was: Choir Cues...)
          >
          > Isaac Lambertsen wrote:
          > >I speculate that this apparent discrepancy may be traced back to
          > >inattentive transcription or typographic error. Alternatively, some
          > >choir-master, somewhere, at some point, may have arbitrarily decided
          > >that Tone VI has a more solemn, and therefore more lenten, sound than
          > >Tone VIII, and set it accordingly. Since sessional hymns are sung to
          > >troparion melodies (one often sees sessional hymns assigned prosomoion
          > >melodies such as, for example, "When the stone had been sealed by the
          > >Jews..."), the avoidance of the bouncy, oompah bass line of the Tone VIII
          > >troparion melody prevalent in the Russian Church for at least the past
          > >150 years, may have been dictated by considerations of euphony.
          >
          > The Tone 6 setting for "In thee rejoiceth..." that I've heard is in the
          > *stichera* tone -- the originator of this setting apparently either did
          > not
          > know that it is a sessional hymn or did not know that sessional hymns
          > are
          > sung in troparion melodies (or both).
          >
          > Another place where I've seen a transition from tone 8 to tone six is at
          > the
          > Beatitudes at typica. The Typicon quite clearly states that the
          > beatitudes
          > (during Lent) are to be chanted in Tone 8. Nevertheless, at Jordanville
          > the
          > Beatitudes are sung the sixth stichera tone. Dr. Clader's music for the
          > Typica (in English) also has the Beatitudes set to Tone 6.
          >
          > Matthew Williams
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          >
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        • ilector
          Dear Matthew, In the older, pre-L vov/Bakhmetev days, stichera and troparia in Tone VI were sung to exactly the same melody, viz. the one we nowadays use for
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 1, 1999
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            Dear Matthew,

            In the older, pre-L'vov/Bakhmetev days, stichera and troparia in Tone VI
            were sung to exactly the same melody, viz. the one we nowadays use for
            stichera. This was also the case with Tone II. And we do the same
            today with Tone V.

            In fact, if you open your Precentor's Companion [Sputnik psalomshchika]
            to page 100, you will see that "God is the Lord…" and the Tone VI
            resurrectional troparion are set in the melody we use for stichera.

            The late Metropolitan Philaret preferred this system, but choral and
            lectoral inertia (read, stubborness) prevailed.

            So, this probably explains the use of the "stichera" tone in the given
            instance. It does not , however, explain the shift from the correct
            tone (VIII) to Tone VI.

            And by the way, thanks for your help.

            Yours in Christ,

            Isaac Lambertsen.


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          • Dr. Elizabeth W. Riggs
            I suppose I should check in here and explain that we use the Kievan Tone 6 Stichira melody for In thee rejoiceth... simply because that is how we knew
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 1, 1999
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              <SNIP>

              I suppose I should check in here and explain that we use the
              Kievan Tone 6 Stichira melody for "In thee rejoiceth..." simply
              because that is how we knew it. With the new info we are
              receiving daily and weekly via this list, we will be making changes
              as our rehearsal time permits. (In other words, probably not this
              Lent, but next year...) In the meantime, I'll take the tone indication
              out of the Choir Cues when I send them out.

              Elizabeth

              > Dear Matthew,
              >
              > In the older, pre-L'vov/Bakhmetev days, stichera and troparia in Tone VI
              > were sung to exactly the same melody, viz. the one we nowadays use for
              > stichera. This was also the case with Tone II. And we do the same
              > today with Tone V.
              >
              > In fact, if you open your Precentor's Companion [Sputnik psalomshchika]
              > to page 100, you will see that "God is the Lord�" and the Tone VI
              > resurrectional troparion are set in the melody we use for stichera.
              >
              > The late Metropolitan Philaret preferred this system, but choral and
              > lectoral inertia (read, stubborness) prevailed.
              >
              > So, this probably explains the use of the "stichera" tone in the given
              > instance. It does not , however, explain the shift from the correct
              > tone (VIII) to Tone VI.
              >
              > And by the way, thanks for your help.
              >
              > Yours in Christ,
              >
              > Isaac Lambertsen.


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            • Stephen Shott
              ... This is interesting, because in the ROCA parishes in Berlin and Frankfurt, they always seem to use the tone II stichera melody for tone II troparia (and
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 1, 1999
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                Isaac Lambertsen wrote:

                >In the older, pre-L'vov/Bakhmetev days, stichera and troparia in Tone VI
                >were sung to exactly the same melody, viz. the one we nowadays use for
                >stichera. This was also the case with Tone II. And we do the same
                >today with Tone V.

                This is interesting, because in the ROCA parishes in Berlin and Frankfurt,
                they always seem to use the tone II stichera melody for tone II troparia
                (and God is the Lord, and the sessional hymns). I had wondered why this
                was. Thank you.

                Stephen.

                --
                Stephen Shott, Email: sshott@...
                Phone: (03) 6226 2451 (Work)
                (03) 6231 9830 (Home)




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              • bleet78
                Hi all!!! Are sessional hymns sung or are they read?? If so, by whom??? Thanks in advance!!! Blythe
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 10, 2005
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                  Hi all!!!

                  Are sessional hymns sung or are they read?? If so, by whom???
                  Thanks in advance!!!

                  Blythe
                • Sergius Miller
                  ... I ve tried answering this twice already but the answer has not appeared tho items I ve written more recently have appeared immediately. So please forgive
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "bleet78" <buttonbutt@i...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi all!!!
                    >
                    > Are sessional hymns sung or are they read?? If so, by whom???
                    > Thanks in advance!!!
                    >
                    > Blythe

                    I've tried answering this twice already but the answer has not
                    appeared tho' items I've written more recently have appeared
                    immediately. So please forgive any repetition.

                    Anyway...either reading or singing is done. If read, the reader does
                    the reading. If sung, use the tropar tones with two possible
                    exceptions: tone 2, the second set of sedalens; and tone 8, again the
                    second set. In both these cases the theotokion is a sticheron.

                    Sergius Miller
                  • P.Somalis
                    In Greece sessional hymns are ALWAYS sung, save the mid-Canon ones which are some times read. Sessional hymns are generally sung to troparion melodies or to
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                      In Greece sessional hymns are ALWAYS sung, save the mid-Canon ones which are
                      some times read.
                      Sessional hymns are generally sung to troparion melodies or to their special
                      melodies.
                      Contrary to sessional hymns, the portions of the psalter to be read between
                      them are used almost exclusively in monasteries.
                      Panagiotis

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "bleet78" <buttonbutt@...>
                      To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:29 AM
                      Subject: [ustav] Re: Sessional Hymns


                      >
                      >
                      > Hi all!!!
                      >
                      > Are sessional hymns sung or are they read?? If so, by whom???
                      > Thanks in advance!!!
                      >
                      > Blythe
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
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                    • bradley anderson
                      They are customarily read in both modern Russian and Greek practice. They would seem technically to be appointed to be sung, since tones and melodies are
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                        They are customarily read in both modern Russian and
                        Greek practice. They would seem technically to be
                        appointed to be sung, since tones and melodies are
                        indicated in the service books.

                        We generally sing them at Sunday Matins at our parish,
                        and use the appointed special melodies when I know
                        them, and the generic troparion melodies when I don't
                        or when none is appointed. There are occasionally a
                        few special melodies "hidden" here or there in the
                        service books that aren't labelled as such. As to who
                        sings things, I think that in general the Russian
                        tradition tends often to have a "full choir or
                        nothing" approach. It's great when everyone can sing
                        something, but there is nothing wrong with having a
                        solo chanter or a small group of chanters who know a
                        particular melody or who have practiced a particular
                        hymn do so alone -- and he/they can often do so nearly
                        as quickly as a reader who is not overly rushing can
                        read them.

                        Sung material can have a richness that reading doesn't
                        have. I've mentioned before on this forum the
                        practice attributed to St. John of SF, where he
                        insisted that all sung material be sung -- even if
                        badly. I must confess, though, that if I suspect that
                        something will be sung badly, I ask a reader to read
                        it...

                        Bradley (Edward) Anderson


                        --- bleet78 <buttonbutt@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Hi all!!!
                        >
                        > Are sessional hymns sung or are they read?? If so,
                        > by whom???
                        > Thanks in advance!!!
                        >
                        > Blythe
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Buttonbutt
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                          >> Sergius,
                          >>
                          >> So, what exactly is the second set of sedalens? The theotokion? So, for
                          >> tone 2 and 8, do we do the first part in Tropar tone and then the
                          >> theotokion in the Sticheron tone? Forgive my ignorance ... but, I'm a
                          >> bit confused. Thanks!!!
                          >>
                          >> Blythe
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> From: "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@...>
                          >> To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                          >> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:17 AM
                          >> Subject: [ustav] Re: Sessional Hymns
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "bleet78" <buttonbutt@i...> wrote:
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Hi all!!!
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Are sessional hymns sung or are they read?? If so, by whom???
                          >>>> Thanks in advance!!!
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Blythe
                          >>>
                          >>> I've tried answering this twice already but the answer has not
                          >>> appeared tho' items I've written more recently have appeared
                          >>> immediately. So please forgive any repetition.
                          >>>
                          >>> Anyway...either reading or singing is done. If read, the reader does
                          >>> the reading. If sung, use the tropar tones with two possible
                          >>> exceptions: tone 2, the second set of sedalens; and tone 8, again the
                          >>> second set. In both these cases the theotokion is a sticheron.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sergius Miller
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          >>> CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                          >>> More ustav information and service texts:
                          >>> http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                          >>> http://www.orthodox.net/services
                          >>>
                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
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                          >>>
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                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                        • stephen_r1937
                          Two sessions of the Psalter are appointed to be read (on Sundays and some other days, the Polyeleos is appointed, and constitutes a third reading). Each of the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                            Two sessions of the Psalter are appointed to be read (on Sundays and some other days, the Polyeleos is appointed, and constitutes a third reading). Each of the two has its own set of sedalens, which are supposed to be sung after the reading of each set of Psalms (actual practice varies widely--see the message of Panagiotis). As usual when there is a series of stanzas of liturgical poetry, whether troparia or stichera, the last one is normally a theotokion. In any case, sedal'ny shouldn't be sung as stichera; if you know or can obtain the prescribed special melodies, why not use them? Otherwise, sing them as ordinary troparia, or if necessary just read them.

                            Stephen

                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Buttonbutt" <buttonbutt@i...> wrote:
                            > >> Sergius,
                            > >>
                            > >> So, what exactly is the second set of sedalens? The theotokion? So, for
                            > >> tone 2 and 8, do we do the first part in Tropar tone and then the
                            > >> theotokion in the Sticheron tone? Forgive my ignorance ... but, I'm a
                            > >> bit confused. Thanks!!!
                            > >>
                            > >> Blythe
                          • Sergius Miller
                            ... and some other days, the Polyeleos is appointed, and constitutes a third reading). Each of the two has its own set of sedalens, which are supposed to be
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@y...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Two sessions of the Psalter are appointed to be read (on Sundays
                              and some other days, the Polyeleos is appointed, and constitutes a
                              third reading). Each of the two has its own set of sedalens, which
                              are supposed to be sung after the reading of each set of Psalms
                              (actual practice varies widely--see the message of Panagiotis). As
                              usual when there is a series of stanzas of liturgical poetry, whether
                              troparia or stichera, the last one is normally a theotokion. In any
                              case, sedal'ny shouldn't be sung as stichera; if you know or can
                              obtain the prescribed special melodies, why not use them? Otherwise,
                              sing them as ordinary troparia, or if necessary just read them.
                              >
                              > Stephen


                              Stephen,
                              In the case of these two sedalens where the theotokion is a sticheron
                              & not a troparion are there special melodies. my texts have no
                              indication.

                              Sergius
                            • stephen_r1937
                              ... Sergius, In Tones 2 and 8, the theotokia are treated as troparia; I think they should probably be reckoned among the rare cases--I recall reading somewhere
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Stephen,
                                > In the case of these two sedalens where the theotokion is a sticheron
                                > & not a troparion are there special melodies. my texts have no
                                > indication.
                                >
                                Sergius,

                                In Tones 2 and 8, the theotokia are treated as troparia; I think they should probably be reckoned among the rare cases--I recall reading somewhere that there is only one--where the same text serves in some contexts as a sticheron and in others as a troparion. In the Irmologia, *all* the Resurrectional sedal'ny of Tone 2 are sung to "Noble Joseph", and *all* those of Tone 8 to "As the first-fruits of nature." If I remember correctly, the same is true in Greek, Serbian, and Western Romnanian practice at least insofar as a single melody is used for all the sedal'ny of the tone in Greek, Serbian, and Western Romanian practice, but I don't know whether they can identified as specific prosomia--maybe others can tell us. In my Romanian book from Banat, they are called 'stichera', but I think that is just a bit of inexact terminology.

                                Stephen
                              • Sergius Miller
                                ... wrote: Thank you, Stephen. Sergius ... sticheron ... they should probably be reckoned among the rare cases--I recall reading somewhere that there is only
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...>
                                  wrote:

                                  Thank you, Stephen.

                                  Sergius



                                  > > Stephen,
                                  > > In the case of these two sedalens where the theotokion is a
                                  sticheron
                                  > > & not a troparion are there special melodies. my texts have no
                                  > > indication.
                                  > >
                                  > Sergius,
                                  >
                                  > In Tones 2 and 8, the theotokia are treated as troparia; I think
                                  they should probably be reckoned among the rare cases--I recall
                                  reading somewhere that there is only one--where the same text serves
                                  in some contexts as a sticheron and in others as a troparion. In the
                                  Irmologia, *all* the Resurrectional sedal'ny of Tone 2 are sung
                                  to "Noble Joseph", and *all* those of Tone 8 to "As the first-fruits
                                  of nature." If I remember correctly, the same is true in Greek,
                                  Serbian, and Western Romnanian practice at least insofar as a single
                                  melody is used for all the sedal'ny of the tone in Greek, Serbian,
                                  and Western Romanian practice, but I don't know whether they can
                                  identified as specific prosomia--maybe others can tell us. In my
                                  Romanian book from Banat, they are called 'stichera', but I think
                                  that is just a bit of inexact terminology.
                                  >
                                  > Stephen
                                • bradley anderson
                                  The fact that All blessed art thou... is in tone 2 when it is a sessional theotokion at Matins perhaps helps explain why it came to be sung only in sticheron
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                                    The fact that "All blessed art thou..." is in tone 2
                                    when it is a sessional theotokion at Matins perhaps
                                    helps explain why it came to be sung only in sticheron
                                    tone 2 when the same text appears at the end of the
                                    Praises at Matins (Nikita says that it is in all 8
                                    tones in the older books.) Or is there another
                                    explanation?

                                    With regard to the other one, how did "All of Creation
                                    Rejoices..." get from a sessional theotokion at Matins
                                    to being the Zadostoinik at St. Basil's Liturgy, and
                                    why is it often sung in sticheron tone 6 when used in
                                    that situation?



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                                  • stephen_r1937
                                    ... There probably is another explanation: Tone 2 is the default tone for the ordinary of services, probably antedating the organization of the eight tones.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...> wrote:
                                      > The fact that "All blessed art thou..." is in tone 2
                                      > when it is a sessional theotokion at Matins perhaps
                                      > helps explain why it came to be sung only in sticheron
                                      > tone 2 when the same text appears at the end of the
                                      > Praises at Matins (Nikita says that it is in all 8
                                      > tones in the older books.) Or is there another
                                      > explanation?

                                      There probably is another explanation: Tone 2 is the default tone for the ordinary of services, probably antedating the organization of the eight tones. For example, "Let everything that breathes" before the Gospel at Mattins and "Holy is the Lord our God" after the canon are sung in the tone of the week by Carpatho-Rusyns but in Tone 2 regardless of the eight-week cycle by the Greeks. So there are other cases where the text does not vary but is sung by some in the tone of the week and by others in Tone 2 every week.

                                      Stephen

                                      (I won't attempt an answer to the other question just now.)


                                      >
                                      > With regard to the other one, how did "All of Creation
                                      > Rejoices..." get from a sessional theotokion at Matins
                                      > to being the Zadostoinik at St. Basil's Liturgy, and
                                      > why is it often sung in sticheron tone 6 when used in
                                      > that situation?
                                      >
                                    • Margaret Lark
                                      Glory to God for all things! Very, *very* interesting! Thanks, Stephen. A couple of questions: I thought that Noble Joseph was only supposed to be used on
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                        Glory to God for all things! Very, *very* interesting! Thanks, Stephen.

                                        A couple of questions: I thought that "Noble Joseph" was only supposed to
                                        be used on Great and Holy Friday, and one one other occasion that I can't
                                        remember right now? Not so?

                                        Also, do you know if "As the first fruits of nature" is somewhere on the
                                        internet? I have never seen this one.

                                        Lastly, someone asked a question about hypakoii a few days ago, and I was
                                        also interested in the answer -- how these are sung, if at all, and
                                        actually, what they are -- I keep looking up the answer, but somehow, it's
                                        not sticking with me. What is their function in Matins?

                                        OK, that was three questions. Sorry. ;-)

                                        In Christ,
                                        Margaret Lark


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
                                        To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:09 PM
                                        Subject: [ustav] Re: Sessional Hymns


                                        > In Tones 2 and 8, the theotokia are treated as troparia; I think they
                                        > should probably be reckoned among the rare cases--I recall reading
                                        > somewhere that there is only one--where the same text serves in some
                                        > contexts as a sticheron and in others as a troparion. In the Irmologia,
                                        > *all* the Resurrectional sedal'ny of Tone 2 are sung to "Noble Joseph",
                                        > and *all* those of Tone 8 to "As the first-fruits of nature." If I
                                        > remember correctly, the same is true in Greek, Serbian, and Western
                                        > Romnanian practice at least insofar as a single melody is used for all the
                                        > sedal'ny of the tone in Greek, Serbian, and Western Romanian practice, but
                                        > I don't know whether they can identified as specific prosomia--maybe
                                        > others can tell us. In my Romanian book from Banat, they are called
                                        > 'stichera', but I think that is just a bit of inexact terminology.
                                      • stephen_r1937
                                        ... Margaret, this has to do with the history of the Bulgarian Chant in Ruthenia and Muscovy. Recall that the Znamenny Chant makes little provision for
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@v...> wrote:
                                          > Glory to God for all things! Very, *very* interesting! Thanks, Stephen.
                                          >
                                          > A couple of questions: I thought that "Noble Joseph" was only supposed to
                                          > be used on Great and Holy Friday, and one one other occasion that I can't
                                          > remember right now? Not so?

                                          Margaret, this has to do with the history of the "Bulgarian Chant" in Ruthenia and Muscovy. Recall that the Znamenny Chant makes little provision for singing troparia of any kind--apolytikia, kontakia, or sessionals. At some point in time before 1600, the churches of the southwest adopted the Bulgarian Chant, some of them as the default system of church singing but most as a supplement to the Znamenny/Kievan system already in use. Probably the biggest single thing that the Bulgarian Chant added was melodies for troparia. As "Noble Joseph" is appointed as a sessional of Tone 2 in the Octoechos, the melody became part of the eight-week cycle.

                                          The church of Muscovy did not know the Bulgarian chant until the reign of Aleksei Mikhailovich, when the Muscovite state began its expansion into Ukraine. Kiev was annexed; the Nikonian "reform" necessitated some changes in church singing in any case; and the Tsar's Grecophile program, together with a desire to facilitate incorporating Ukrainian eparchies into the Muscovite patriarchate, opened the door to a variety of new influences in church singing. The Bulgarian Chant was adopted for some, but only a few, texts; a couple of troparia prosomia were taken from that source, but not in their function as prosomia (to this day, Russian church singing mostly just ignores troparia prosomia and uses in each tone a single one-size-fits-all melody for troparia). Instead, a couple of Bulgarian melodies were taken as seasonal specialties: "Today the Virgin" for Nativity, and "Noble Joseph" for Holy Friday/Saturday. So those brought up in the Russian tradtition find it upsetting if these melodies are sung "out of season," as actual prosomia.

                                          Their is a lesser-chant version of "Noble Joseph," different enough from what is sung in Holy Week that it should not cause problems for those who are used to the more elaborate melody as a solemn adornment of the Holy Week services only; so it would be possible to draw on the Bulgarian repertory to provide a prosomion without disturbing Russia parishioners. The problem here is simply inertia, and the assumption--a Russian superstition,we might call it--that prosomia for troparia do not really exist (look at popular collections of troparia for the church year and try to find the rubrics prescribing prosomia; they are omitted, thereby locking their users, as I periodically complain, into an impoverished octoechos).

                                          >
                                          > Also, do you know if "As the first fruits of nature" is somewhere on the
                                          > internet? I have never seen this one.

                                          The version in the Irmologia is not, as far as I know; but here again there is a simpler form, and if you look at the OCA web site you will find that Walter Obleschuk has provided it, as sung in Galicia, for some of the prosomion texts.
                                          >
                                          > Lastly, someone asked a question about hypakoii a few days ago, and I was
                                          > also interested in the answer -- how these are sung, if at all, and
                                          > actually, what they are -- I keep looking up the answer, but somehow, it's
                                          > not sticking with me. What is their function in Matins?

                                          They are troparia, so they are sung as troparia (often they are just read, probably because they were overlooked when the practice of singing troparia was restored). The hypakoê of Sunday marks the end of the psalmody that opens the Resurrection Vigil section of Mattins, the part that culminates with the reading of the Gospel. On feasts, the troparion after the Third Ode of the Canon is called either hypakoê or sedalen. There is also an hypakoê after the Canon in the Midnight Office.

                                          >
                                          > OK, that was three questions. Sorry. ;-)
                                          >
                                          If you get to two, why not go for three?

                                          Stephen
                                        • Margaret Lark
                                          Glory to God for all things! Many thanks for going into such detail, but I have to ask: Do you do this for a living, Stephen?! I m struggling not to be
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                            Glory to God for all things! Many thanks for going into such detail, but I
                                            have to ask: Do you do this for a living, Stephen?! I'm struggling not to
                                            be envious of your knowledge!

                                            Thanks also for providing the reference for "As the first fruits of nature."
                                            It's frustrating to find references to music and not know where to find it.

                                            In Christ,
                                            Margaret


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
                                            To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:51 AM
                                            Subject: [ustav] Re: Sessional Hymns




                                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@v...> wrote:
                                            > Glory to God for all things! Very, *very* interesting! Thanks, Stephen.
                                            >
                                            > A couple of questions: I thought that "Noble Joseph" was only supposed to
                                            > be used on Great and Holy Friday, and one one other occasion that I can't
                                            > remember right now? Not so?

                                            Margaret, this has to do with the history of the "Bulgarian Chant" in
                                            Ruthenia and Muscovy. ...
                                          • stephen_r1937
                                            ... Who would pay me for this sort of thing? (I m retired.) I m struggling not to ... No need to struggle. The original question involved the chant tradition
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@v...> wrote:
                                              > Glory to God for all things! Many thanks for going into such detail, but I
                                              > have to ask: Do you do this for a living, Stephen?!

                                              Who would pay me for this sort of thing? (I'm retired.)

                                              I'm struggling not to
                                              > be envious of your knowledge!

                                              No need to struggle. The original question involved the chant tradition of southwestern Rus' I lived for some years in Pennsylvania. I ought to know about that, don't you think?

                                              >
                                              > Thanks also for providing the reference for "As the first fruits of nature."
                                              > It's frustrating to find references to music and not know where to find it.

                                              Sooner or later these things will appear on the Internet. Meanwhile, a photo-reprint of the last (1904) edition of the Irmologion of L'viv can be had from the Ukrainian Bookstore in Edmonton.

                                              Stephen
                                            • Margaret Lark
                                              ... From: stephen_r1937 To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:14 PM Subject: [ustav] Re: Sessional Hymns
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 13, 2005
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                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
                                                To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:14 PM
                                                Subject: [ustav] Re: Sessional Hymns


                                                > The original question involved the chant tradition of southwestern Rus' I
                                                > lived for some years in Pennsylvania. I ought to know about that, don't
                                                > you think?

                                                Ummm... have you ever seen that cover of the New Yorker, with NYC laid out
                                                in loving detail from Fifth Avenue to Tenth Avenue, and then beyond that
                                                lies, oh, Disneyland, and somewhere back there is China? I'm originally
                                                from NYC, does that tell you what I know about PA? ;-) I'm lucky I
                                                know NH exists, and that's only because I live here now! ;-)

                                                (I think, though, that I'm about to learn a WHOLE lot more about PA, since
                                                my son is living there now.)

                                                In Christ,
                                                Meg
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