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Super sindonem

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  • DNOHS@AOL.COM
    Does anyone have, in english, the prayer Super sindonem ( Over the Shroud ), which is recited in the Ambrosian Rite, at the point in the solemn High Mass
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2001
      Does anyone have, in english, the prayer "Super sindonem" ("Over the
      Shroud"), which is recited in the Ambrosian Rite, at the point in the solemn
      High Mass where the corporal is opened and spread on the altar?
            Yours in Christ,
            Don Nohs
           DNOHS@...
    • Stephen Reynolds
      -- On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 10:41:58 ... Is this not a variable prayer like the collect, postcommunion, etc. in the Roman Rite? I don t have any Ambrosian materials
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1, 2001
        --

        On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 10:41:58
        DNOHS wrote:
        >Does anyone have, in english, the prayer "Super sindonem" ("Over the
        >Shroud"), which is recited in the Ambrosian Rite, at the point in the solemn
        >High Mass where the corporal is opened and spread on the altar?
        > Yours in Christ,
        > Don Nohs
        > DNOHS@...
        >Dear Don Nohs:

        Is this not a variable prayer like the collect, postcommunion, etc. in the Roman Rite? I don't have any Ambrosian materials at hand, but if Remember correctly it is a short prayer of the collect type that varies with the calendar.

        Stephen Reynolds


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      • millerr@cua.edu
        ... The Super sindonem is a variable prayer or collect, one per Mass, that preceedes the Offertory of the Ambrosian Rite Mass. It is a collect of general
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 2, 2001
          --- In ustav@y..., DNOHS@A... wrote:
          > Does anyone have, in english, the prayer "Super sindonem" ("Over the
          > Shroud"), which is recited in the Ambrosian Rite, at the point in the solemn
          > High Mass where the corporal is opened and spread on the altar?
          > Yours in Christ,
          > Don Nohs
          > DNOHS@A...

          The "Super sindonem" is a variable prayer or collect, one per Mass,
          that preceedes the Offertory of the Ambrosian Rite Mass. It is a
          collect of general import just like the earlier prayer or collect of
          the day having nothing to do with the offertory in spite of the name.
          In the current Missal revised after Vatican II it follows the general
          intercessions and is designated "Ad Complendam Liturgiam Verbi."

          In Christ,
          Sergius
        • Rev. John R. Shaw
          ... This is one of the *variable* parts of the Ambrosian Rite--the text is different at each day s Mass. Thus you would need a complete Missal (or a collection
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 2, 2001
            On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 DNOHS@... wrote:

            > Does anyone have, in english, the prayer "Super sindonem" ("Over the
            > Shroud"), which is recited in the Ambrosian Rite, at the point in the solemn
            > High Mass where the corporal is opened and spread on the altar?

            This is one of the *variable* parts of the Ambrosian Rite--the
            text is different at each day's Mass. Thus you would need a complete
            Missal (or a collection of several hundred of these Prayers "Super
            Sindonem").

            Also this is not something limited to the "solemn High Mass". It
            appears at all celebrations. To be sure, the ancient Ambrosian RIte did
            not have "Low Mass", any more than the ancient Roman Mass did.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • MariaeFilius@aol.com
            Where might one obtain a copy of the Ambrosian Missal (either in Latin or in English) in order to have access to these (and other) texts? In Christe Iesu,
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 2, 2001
              Where might one obtain a copy of the Ambrosian Missal (either in Latin or in
              English) in order to have access to these (and other) texts?

              In Christe Iesu,

              Joseph Langone
            • millerr@cua.edu
              ... Latin or Italian (There is no English translation.) Ambrosian Missals & Breviaries can be obtained from the the Centro Ambrosiano di Documentazione e di
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 3, 2001
                --- In ustav@y..., MariaeFilius@a... wrote:
                > Where might one obtain a copy of the Ambrosian Missal (either in Latin or in
                > English) in order to have access to these (and other) texts?
                >
                > In Christe Iesu,
                >
                > Joseph Langone

                Latin or Italian (There is no English translation.) Ambrosian Missals
                & Breviaries can be obtained from the the Centro Ambrosiano di
                Documentazione e di Studi Religiosi, Milano, Italy. Sorry I've not
                got the street address. I suspect it wouldn't be needed.

                In Christ,
                Sergius
              • Stephen Reynolds
                -- On Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:17:05 ... It might be worth mentioning that there was once a similar variable prayer in Rome; the Gelasian Sacramentary, if memory
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 3, 2001
                  --

                  On Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:17:05
                  millerr wrote:
                  >--- In ustav@y..., MariaeFilius@a... wrote:
                  >> Where might one obtain a copy of the Ambrosian Missal (either in Latin or in
                  >> English) in order to have access to these (and other) texts?
                  >>
                  >> In Christe Iesu,
                  >>
                  >> Joseph Langone
                  >
                  >Latin or Italian (There is no English translation.) Ambrosian Missals
                  >& Breviaries can be obtained from the the Centro Ambrosiano di
                  >Documentazione e di Studi Religiosi, Milano, Italy. Sorry I've not
                  >got the street address. I suspect it wouldn't be needed.
                  >
                  >In Christ,
                  >Sergius
                  >
                  It might be worth mentioning that there was once a similar variable prayer in Rome; the Gelasian Sacramentary, if memory serves, contains a second collect that corresponds to the Ambrosian Super sindonem; the Gregorian Sacramentary, upon which the Missal is founded, does not have it, and so it has disappeared from use.

                  Stephen Reynolds>


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                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                  ... However, it is not clear that the one corresponds to the other. The second Collect in the Gelasian Sacramentary seems often to have become the final
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 4, 2001
                    On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Stephen Reynolds wrote:
                    > >
                    > It might be worth mentioning that there was once a similar variable prayer in Rome; the Gelasian Sacramentary, if memory serves, contains a second collect that corresponds to the Ambrosian Super sindonem; the Gregorian Sacramentary, upon which the Missal is founded, does not have it, and so it has disappeared from use.
                    >
                    However, it is not clear that the one corresponds to the other.

                    The "second Collect" in the Gelasian Sacramentary seems often to
                    have become the final "Prayer over the People", --which at one time was
                    part of most masses, and not only in Lent-- and which would correspond
                    most to the Ambon Prayer in the Byzantine tradition.

                    Remember also that, in the Roman tradition (i.e. before Vatican
                    II), on some days there might be more than one reading before the Gospel.
                    In such cases, there can also be several Collects.

                    The Ambrosian "Oratio super Sindonem" would correspond most to the
                    Prayer of Fervent Intercession in the Byzantine Liturgy, that is, the
                    prayer said by the priest during the Litany "Let us all say" following the
                    Readings.
                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Stephen Reynolds
                    -- On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:09:50 ... Thank you for this observation. I have not been able, so far, to find a library with editions of the texts in question in
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 5, 2001
                      --

                      On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:09:50
                      Rev. John R. Shaw wrote:
                      >On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Stephen Reynolds wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> It might be worth mentioning that there was once a similar variable prayer in Rome; the Gelasian Sacramentary, if memory serves, contains a second collect that corresponds to the Ambrosian Super sindonem; the Gregorian Sacramentary, upon which the Missal is founded, does not have it, and so it has disappeared from use.
                      >>
                      > However, it is not clear that the one corresponds to the other.
                      >
                      > The "second Collect" in the Gelasian Sacramentary seems often to have become the final "Prayer over the People", --which at one time was part of most masses, and not only in Lent-- and which would correspond
                      >most to the Ambon Prayer in the Byzantine tradition.
                      >
                      > Remember also that, in the Roman tradition (i.e. before Vatican II), on some days there might be more than one reading before the Gospel. In such cases, there can also be several Collects.
                      >
                      > The Ambrosian "Oratio super Sindonem" would correspond most to the
                      >Prayer of Fervent Intercession in the Byzantine Liturgy, that is, the prayer said by the priest during the Litany "Let us all say" following the Readings.
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      >
                      >Dear Father John:

                      Thank you for this observation. I have not been able, so far, to find a library with editions of the texts in question in my area (I think I could find a set of Migne within reasonable distance, but have not looked there yet), let alone Chavasse etc. So I must rely on not-very-fresh memory, which is often not as accurate or detailed as I would wish. So I appreciate your input on this, and do not doubt that you are correct that the second collect of the Gelasian is a super populum rather than a super sindonem.

                      Stephen Reynolds


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