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Re: blessing of candles on Feb. 2

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  • Subdeacon Sergius Miller
    ... The same was done for girls on the 80th day, and this gives us ... Hmm! Well, I ve tried, but by my math. Sept. 8 to Nov. 21 will not equal 80 days. My
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 1, 2000
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      --- In ustav@egroups.com, Expanding Edge LLC <business@e...> wrote:
      > Blessed be God.
      >
      The same was done for girls on the 80th day, and this gives us
      > the feast we know as the Entry of the Theotokos, 80 days after her
      > nativity on Sept 8th.
      >

      Hmm! Well, I've tried, but by my math. Sept. 8 to Nov. 21 will not
      equal 80 days. My sum keeps coming up 75 -- that won't do for
      symbolism.

      In XC,
      Sergius
    • Rev. John R. Shaw
      ... I would very much recommend looking at --to the best of my memory-- vo. XIII of a series of reprinted medieval MSS. called Paleographie Musicale ,
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 1, 2000
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        On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Isaac E. Lambertsen wrote:

        > we know now for certain, thanks to the researches of Dom H. Peillon, that
        > the chants which still stand in the Roman Antiphonary and are sung in the
        > Candlemas procession are taken bodily from Greek liturgical sources. In the
        > manuscript which Dom Peillon has identified as that princiapply employed by
        > Pamelius for his edition of the antiphonary,the anthems 'Ave gratia plena'
        > and 'Adorna thalamum tuum Sion' are written both in Latin and in Greek with
        > Latin characters. There can also be little doubt that Dom Peillon is
        > justified in regarding this manuscript as a copy of an earlier document
        > which preserves for us with substantial fidelity the usage of the Roman
        > Church in the second half of the eighth century."
        >
        I would very much recommend looking at --to the best of my
        memory-- vo. XIII of a series of reprinted medieval MSS. called
        "Paleographie Musicale", published in the late 19th and early 20th
        centuries, and more recently reissued.

        In that manuscript, from about the year 1000, most of the
        sticheras from Great Vespers of the Meeting of the Lord appear in Latin
        and with melodies that seem to be a transcription of the paleo-Byzantine
        chants into (staveless) Gregorian notation. These chants are to be used
        during the procession with lighted candles. I also seem to recall that
        this feast is also called "Ypapandi" or "Ipopandi" in that book.

        The Paleographie is in most better research libraries. In NYC it
        is in the music division of the New York Public Library.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw> >
      • Ploverleigh@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/30/00 8:18:56 AM, c-rjohnson@prodigy.net writes:
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 2, 2000
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          In a message dated 11/30/00 8:18:56 AM, c-rjohnson@... writes:

          << However, I was not aware that this was something done in the East. Does
          anyone know the origin of this service as it is in this English language
          Trebnik? As far as I can tell it seems to have been borrowed from the West
          as all the prayers are, other than slightly changed endings, exactly the same
          as those that appear in the Missale Romanum.for the blessing of candles. >>

          If you will notice, the HYMNS and ANTIPHONS in the MIssale Romanum (pre V2)
          for this feast are those of VESPERS in the Byzantine rite!

          Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

          Does it really matter?

          St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain said something like this, "The practices
          of the non-orthodox are not to be condemned out of hand if they are not
          contrary to the Holy Canons, and if they are pious and helpful, we may use
          them."

          Obviously, SOMEBODY somehwere in Russia found the practice of blessing of
          candles spiritually beneficial.

          If it's helpful where you are, go for it!

          If it stirs up strife, dont' do it.

          I have noticed that wheresoever it was introduced (Greek and even ROCOR
          parishes), the people have loved it!

          Ploverleigh
        • Ploverleigh@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/1/00 6:39:38 AM, millerr@cua.edu writes:
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 2, 2000
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            In a message dated 12/1/00 6:39:38 AM, millerr@... writes:

            << Hmm! Well, I've tried, but by my math. Sept. 8 to Nov. 21 will not
            equal 80 days. My sum keeps coming up 75 -- that won't do for
            symbolism.

            In XC,
            Sergius >>

            On the other hand, there are more than 40 days from Pure Monday to Holy
            Saturday.......

            Liturgical math has never been exact.

            In any case, 21 November commemorates an event when the little Maraim bas
            Joachim was 3 years old.

            It is NOT the same thing as the "Purification of St. Anna." (Did any church
            ever celebrat that feast?)
          • Fr. Christopher Johnson
            ... From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [ustav] blessing of
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 3, 2000
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <Ploverleigh@...>
              To: <c-rjohnson@...>; <ustav@egroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 6:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [ustav] blessing of candles on Feb. 2


              >
              > If you will notice, the HYMNS and ANTIPHONS in the MIssale Romanum (pre
              V2)
              > for this feast are those of VESPERS in the Byzantine rite!

              I checked into this and did not see a correspondence, much less similarity
              between the hymns and antiphons in the Missale Romanum (at least my addition
              which was printed in 1956) and those of Vespers in the "Byzantine Rite",
              Could you refer me to where your're referring to (such as the names of the
              hymns - the first few words- or something similar)?.
              >
              > Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
              >
              > Does it really matter?

              In this case, no. It's merely an interesteing (to me) textual question.

              >
              > St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain said something like this, "The
              practices
              > of the non-orthodox are not to be condemned out of hand if they are not
              > contrary to the Holy Canons, and if they are pious and helpful, we may use
              > them."
              >
              > Obviously, SOMEBODY somehwere in Russia found the practice of blessing of
              > candles spiritually beneficial.
              >
              > If it's helpful where you are, go for it!
              >
              > If it stirs up strife, dont' do it.
              >
              > I have noticed that wheresoever it was introduced (Greek and even ROCOR
              > parishes), the people have loved it!
              >
              > Ploverleigh
              >

              I am not of the opinion that the service in question is of heterodox origin.
              Even if it originates in the west, it is the Orthodox west that it comes
              from, so the service as such, IMHO, is Orthodox in any case. I was only
              interested in the origin of the service because I *hought* that this service
              was only done in the west. I'm quite happy to see that I was mistaken on
              that point!

              In Christ,
              Fr. Christopher Johnson
            • Subdeacon Sergius Miller
              ... Actually the Church counts from Clean Monday to the Friday before the Raising of Lazarus, exactly forty days. Note that some of the chants at the
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 4, 2000
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                --- In ustav@egroups.com, Ploverleigh@a... wrote:

                >
                > On the other hand, there are more than 40 days from Pure Monday to Holy
                > Saturday.......


                Actually the Church counts from Clean Monday to the Friday before the
                Raising of Lazarus, exactly forty days. Note that some of the chants
                at the Vespers/Presanctified on that Fri. emphasize the point that the
                Forty Days -- Tesseracoste, Quadragesima, Careme -- end on that day.
                This is followed by the two feasts of Lazarus' Raising & the Entry
                into Jerusalem and then the Passion Fast.

                Note that when the Church does these number symbolic celebrations, she
                always does them accurately or is off with a set purpose; i.e., the
                Annunciation to the Nativity is exactly 9 months; but both the
                conceptions of the Mother of God & St. John the Baptist are off the
                dates of the their Nativities by a day. He, by a day too amny; she,
                by a day too few. Only the Savior is perfect.

                In Christ,
                Sergius
              • Rev. John R. Shaw
                ... It is said that the feast is celebrated on this day in honor of the dedication (enkainia, vozobnovlenie) of the Church of the Theotokos, near the site of
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 4, 2000
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                  > In a message dated 12/1/00 6:39:38 AM, millerr@... writes:
                  >
                  > << Hmm! Well, I've tried, but by my math. Sept. 8 to Nov. 21 will not
                  > equal 80 days. My sum keeps coming up 75 -- that won't do for
                  > symbolism.
                  >
                  It is said that the feast is celebrated on this day in honor of
                  the dedication (enkainia, vozobnovlenie) of the Church of the Theotokos,
                  near the site of the Temple.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Expanding Edge LLC
                  Blessed be God. ... Well, I get to wear egg on my face again, and please forgive any confusion. I must have calculated wrong, because the number of days
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 4, 2000
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                    Blessed be God.

                    Subdeacon Sergius Miller wrote:
                    >
                    > The same was done for girls on the 80th day, and this gives us
                    > > the feast we know as the Entry of the Theotokos, 80 days after her
                    > > nativity on Sept 8th.
                    >
                    > Hmm! Well, I've tried, but by my math. Sept. 8 to Nov. 21 will not
                    > equal 80 days. My sum keeps coming up 75 -- that won't do for
                    > symbolism.

                    Well, I get to wear egg on my face again, and please forgive any
                    confusion. I must have calculated wrong, because the number of days
                    between Sept 8 and Nov 21 is indeed 74 or 75, depending on how you
                    count. I think I must have doubled a week somehow and arrived at 80. I
                    thought I had discovered something, when I did! As it is, though, the
                    following is a better explanation--

                    "Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:
                    >
                    > It is said that the feast is celebrated on this day in honor of
                    > the dedication (enkainia, vozobnovlenie) of the Church of the Theotokos,
                    > near the site of the Temple.

                    This is actually not an unusual reason for why a number of feasts occur
                    on the days they do. Another would be the Triumph of the Holy Cross
                    (Sept 14), which with the 15th was the dedication of the Holy Sepulchre
                    Church. By the way, Triumph of the Cross _is_ 40 days from August
                    6/Transfiguration (counting both feasts), a meaningful (and doubtless
                    deliberate) relationship in view of the Lord's prophecy of his own
                    impending death, on the way down from the peak of Tabor.

                    Regards,

                    John Burnett
                  • Peter Fekula
                    Reply to: Re: [ustav] Re: blessing of candles on Feb. 2 My understanding is that the date for the celebration of the Transfiguration was set at August 6
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 5, 2000
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                      Reply to: Re: [ustav] Re: blessing of candles on Feb. 2
                      My understanding is that the date for the celebration of the Transfiguration was set at August 6 precisely because it comes 40 days before the Exaltation of the Cross. The actual event on Mt. Tabor occurred 40 days before the Crucifixion, but that would land the Feast on Wednesday of the 2nd week of Lent. To avoid a lenten festival, the church determined to celebrate the feast 40 days prior to a commemoration closely related to the Crucifixion.

                      I'd appreciate a correction if I'm wrong.

                      Peter Fekula

                      ========================


                      Expanding Edge LLC wrote:


                      This is actually not an unusual reason for why a number of feasts occur on the days they do. Another would be the Triumph of the Holy Cross (Sept 14), which with the 15th was the dedication of the Holy Sepulchre Church. By the way, Triumph of the Cross _is_ 40 days from August 6/Transfiguration (counting both feasts), a meaningful (and doubtless deliberate) relationship in view of the Lord's prophecy of his own impending death, on the way down from the peak of Tabor.

                      Regards,
                      John Burnett
                    • Subdeacon Sergius Miller
                      This is also my understanding. The feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross is older than the Transfiguration on the August date. As I recall there is some
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 5, 2000
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                        This is also my understanding. The feast of the Exaltation of the
                        Holy Cross is older than the Transfiguration on the August date. As I
                        recall there is some evidence that we once celebrated the
                        Transfiguration on one of the Sundays in the early part of the Great
                        Fast, but that it was removed to August 6 for the reasons cited.

                        In Christ,
                        Sergius


                        --- In ustav@egroups.com, Peter Fekula <pfekula@m...> wrote:
                        > Reply to: Re: [ustav] Re: blessing of candles on Feb. 2
                        > My understanding is that the date for the celebration of the Transfiguration was set at August 6 precisely because it comes 40 days before the Exaltation of the Cross. The actual event on Mt. Tabor occurred 40 days before the Crucifixion, but that would land the Feast on Wednesday of the 2nd week of Lent. To avoid a lenten festival, the church determined to celebrate the feast 40 days prior to a commemoration closely related to the Crucifixion.
                        >
                        > I'd appreciate a correction if I'm wrong.
                        >
                        > Peter Fekula
                        >
                        > ========================
                        >
                        >
                        > Expanding Edge LLC wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > This is actually not an unusual reason for why a number of feasts occur on the days they do. Another would be the Triumph of the Holy Cross (Sept 14), which with the 15th was the dedication of the Holy Sepulchre Church. By the way, Triumph of the Cross _is_ 40 days from August 6/Transfiguration (counting both feasts), a meaningful (and doubtless deliberate) relationship in view of the Lord's prophecy of his own impending death, on the way down from the peak of Tabor.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > John Burnett
                      • Malcolm Jenner
                        ... Transfiguration was set at August 6 precisely because it comes 40 days before the Exaltation of the Cross. The actual event on Mt. Tabor occurred 40 days
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 5, 2000
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                          At 10:27 05/12/00 -0500, you wrote:
                          > Reply to: Re: [ustav] Re: blessing of candles on Feb. 2
                          >My understanding is that the date for the celebration of the
                          Transfiguration was set at August 6 precisely because it comes 40 days
                          before the Exaltation of the Cross. The actual event on Mt. Tabor occurred
                          40 days before the Crucifixion, but that would land the Feast on Wednesday
                          of the 2nd week of Lent. To avoid a lenten festival, the church determined
                          to celebrate the feast 40 days prior to a commemoration closely related to
                          the Crucifixion.
                          >
                          >I'd appreciate a correction if I'm wrong.
                          >
                          >Peter Fekula
                          >

                          I believe there is some evidence that, at least in some places, the
                          Transfiguration was celebrated at one time on the first (or perhaps it was
                          the second) Sunday of Lent.

                          Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                        • Ploverleigh@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/4/00 8:41:52 PM, business@expandingedge.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 6, 2000
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                            In a message dated 12/4/00 8:41:52 PM, business@... writes:

                            << This is actually not an unusual reason for why a number of feasts occur
                            on the days they do. Another would be the Triumph of the Holy Cross
                            (Sept 14), which with the 15th was the dedication of the Holy Sepulchre
                            Church. By the way, Triumph of the Cross _is_ 40 days from August
                            6/Transfiguration (counting both feasts), a meaningful (and doubtless
                            deliberate) relationship in view of the Lord's prophecy of his own
                            impending death, on the way down from the peak of Tabor. >>

                            FWIW, before V2, August 6 was called "Dedication of the Basilica of the
                            Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor" on the other side of the Tiber.
                          • Rev. John R. Shaw
                            ... This terminology does not appear in any of the pre-Vat. II sources I have seen. The Feast of the Transfiguration had only been revived in the West in the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 6, 2000
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                              On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 Ploverleigh@... wrote:
                              >
                              > FWIW, before V2, August 6 was called "Dedication of the Basilica of the
                              > Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor" on the other side of the Tiber.
                              >
                              This terminology does not appear in any of the pre-Vat. II sources
                              I have seen. The Feast of the Transfiguration had only been revived in the
                              West in the late Middle Ages, and appears as a sort of "appendix" in the
                              printed Sarum books, and others. Formerly Aug. 6 had simply been the
                              feast of St.
                              Sixtus. However, even then there had been a blessing of grapes on that
                              day.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
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