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Re: [ustav] Canticles and Canons

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  • Expanding Edge LLC
    Christ is risen! ... But the nomenclature can be even more confusing because these canticles are collected into a separate book of the Septuagint which is
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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      Christ is risen!

      chantermt@... wrote:
      >
      > Our Canons at Matins assume that there are nine (actually ten) Old
      > Testament Canticles, on which our Canons are [loosely] based.
      >
      > Part of the difficulty with this portion of our liturgy is the confusing
      > nomenclature.
      >
      > A "canticle" is a psalm (i.e., a hymn, a poetic text) which is in some
      > other book of the Bible than the Book of Psalms.

      But the nomenclature can be even more confusing because these
      "canticles" are collected into a separate book of the Septuagint which
      is usually placed right after the Psalms, called the Book of Odes
      (Odai). So one should understand that the words 'ode' and 'canticle' are
      interchangeable.

      As has been mentioned, it is rare for parishes ever to actually sing the
      biblical odes, except for the 9th (the Magnificat), because of time
      constraints. Thus, when we sing the "odes" of the canon, we do not
      technically sing the (biblical) odes, but only the sets of troparia
      which are meant to be sung "upon" each ode-- i.e., interleaved between
      the final verses of each, just like we do with the stichera at Lord I
      Call and the Praises. This would be like reading only the stichera at
      Lord I Call and none of the psalmody.

      'Irmos' means 'hinge'; it's a special troparion that summarizes the
      biblical ode and bridges to the following troparia. Many canons use the
      same irmoi at each ode; if anything, the irmoi tend to belong to the
      tone that the canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the
      specific canon itself. However, this is not an absolute rule.

      Each 'ode' (set) of troparia begins with an irmos related to the
      biblical ode, has an appropriate refrain and a number of troparia, and
      concludes with a repetition of the irmos.

      The books usually appoint two or more canons simultaneously; thus--

      canon 1 ode 1, then
      canon 2 ode 1; then
      canon 3 ode 1; then

      canon 1 ode 3, then
      canon 2 ode 3; then
      canon 3 ode 3; then

      canon 1 ode 4, then
      canon 2 ode 4; then
      canon 3 ode 4; etc.

      In this case, the katavasia that comes at the end of each ode is always
      the irmos that belongs to that ode in the final canon. Now of course
      because of time constraints your parish may elect not to do all of the
      appointed canons (on a sunday with a feast day there can be as many as
      five), but the katavasia is nevertheless always the irmos of the last
      canon appointed for the day, whether you actually do it or not.

      Putting it all together, the structure is technically like this for each
      ode (I've seen the biblical verses and the refrains done by the choir or
      by a separate chanter):

      BIBLICAL ODE: (Ode I = Ex 15, Ode II = Dt 32, etc)
      Verse (right chanter, if you're doing choirs)
      verse (left chanter)
      verse (right)
      verse (left)
      verse (right)
      verse (left)
      verse (right)
      verse (left)
      verse (right)
      verse (left)
      verse +

      CANON I IRMOS (right)
      verse + troparion (left)
      verse + troparion (right)
      verse + troparion (left)
      verse + troparion (right)...
      final verse + troparion (left)
      All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
      triadicon (right)
      All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
      theotokion (left)

      CANON II IRMOS (not taken, I think)
      refrain + troparion (left)
      refrain + troparion (right)
      refrain + troparion (left)
      refrain + troparion (right)
      All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
      triadicon (right)
      All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
      theotokion (left)

      CANON III IRMOS (not taken, I think)
      refrain + troparion (left)
      refrain + troparion (right)
      refrain + troparion (left)
      refrain + troparion (right)
      Glory*... + triadicon (left)
      Both now.... + theotokion (right)

      refrain + extra troparion (if any) (left)

      KATAVASIA (both choirs; = last irmos).

      Note in this structure what happens at the irmoi, triadica, and
      theotokia. Not exactly sure at the moment whether the second and third
      irmoi are sung or whether you skip them. The refrains differ for each
      canon, according to its subject-matter.

      *At the 8th Ode, "Let us bless Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Lord"
      is substituted for "Glory..." so as to warn the priest that it's time to
      cense for the 9th Ode.

      As mentioned, though, we usually just skip the biblical ode altogether.
      That leaves us with the following structure:

      CANON I (Ex 15, not taken):

      Irmos (right)
      refrain + troparion (left)
      refrain + troparion (right)...
      Glory + triadicon (left)
      Both now+ theotokion (right)
      katavasia (both)



      Hope all this helps. I needed to write it out for sunday school anyway.

      Christ is risen indeed!

      John Burnett
    • Malcolm Jenner
      ... Using the Biblical Odes in the slightly abbreviated form given in, amongst other places, the Slavonic Himerologion, takes hardly any more time than using
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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        At 01:20 02/06/00 -0700, you wrote:
        >Christ is risen!
        >
        >
        >As has been mentioned, it is rare for parishes ever to actually sing the
        >biblical odes, except for the 9th (the Magnificat), because of time
        >constraints. Thus, when we sing the "odes" of the canon, we do not
        >technically sing the (biblical) odes, but only the sets of troparia
        >which are meant to be sung "upon" each ode-- i.e., interleaved between
        >the final verses of each, just like we do with the stichera at Lord I
        >Call and the Praises. This would be like reading only the stichera at
        >Lord I Call and none of the psalmody.
        >

        Using the Biblical Odes in the slightly abbreviated form given in, amongst
        other places, the Slavonic Himerologion, takes hardly any more time than
        using the refrains.




        >BIBLICAL ODE: (Ode I = Ex 15, Ode II = Dt 32, etc)
        > Verse (right chanter, if you're doing choirs)
        > verse (left chanter)
        > verse (right)
        > verse (left)
        > verse (right)
        > verse (left)
        > verse (right)
        > verse (left)
        > verse (right)
        > verse (left)
        > verse +
        >
        > CANON I IRMOS (right)
        > verse + troparion (left)
        > verse + troparion (right)
        > verse + troparion (left)
        > verse + troparion (right)...
        > final verse + troparion (left)
        > All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
        > triadicon (right)
        > All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
        > theotokion (left)
        >
        > CANON II IRMOS (not taken, I think)

        The Hirmoi of second and subsequent Canons are not used, with the exception
        of certain Feasts where the Hirmos is actually part of the Canon.


        > refrain + troparion (left)

        Should be RIGHT, and so on subsequently.

        > refrain + troparion (right)
        > refrain + troparion (left)
        > refrain + troparion (right)
        > All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
        > triadicon (right)
        > All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
        > theotokion (left)
        >
        > CANON III IRMOS (not taken, I think)
        > refrain + troparion (left)
        > refrain + troparion (right)
        > refrain + troparion (left)
        > refrain + troparion (right)
        > Glory*... + triadicon (left)
        > Both now.... + theotokion (right)
        >
        > refrain + extra troparion (if any) (left)
        >
        > KATAVASIA (both choirs; = last irmos).
        >
        >Note in this structure what happens at the irmoi, triadica, and
        >theotokia. Not exactly sure at the moment whether the second and third
        >irmoi are sung or whether you skip them. The refrains differ for each
        >canon, according to its subject-matter.
        >
        >*At the 8th Ode, "Let us bless Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Lord"
        >is substituted for "Glory..." so as to warn the priest that it's time to
        >cense for the 9th Ode.
        >
        >As mentioned, though, we usually just skip the biblical ode altogether.
        >That leaves us with the following structure:
        >
        >CANON I (Ex 15, not taken):
        >
        >Irmos (right)
        > refrain + troparion (left)
        > refrain + troparion (right)...
        > Glory + triadicon (left)
        > Both now+ theotokion (right)
        >katavasia (both)
        >

        Glory should be RIGHT, Both now should be LEFT.

        There is always an EVEN number of Troparia (14 or 12) before the Katavasia.

        A further point to note is that the ODD numbered Odes (1, 3, 5 , 7 , 9)
        customarily begin with the right choir whilst the EVEN numbered Odes (2 (in
        Lent), 4, 6, 8) begin with the LEFT choir.



        Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        CHRIST IS RISEN! No doubt the Canticles were replaced by refrains or acclamations when only one person read or sang the Canon (or a given section thereof).
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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          CHRIST IS RISEN!

          No doubt the Canticles were replaced by "refrains" or
          "acclamations" when only one person read or sang the Canon (or a given
          section thereof). If he uses the refrains, he does not need to keep his
          place in two books--he can read from a single book.
          The solution, of course, is for *two* people to read a Canon
          where possible: one to take the Tropars of the Canon, the other the
          verses of the Canticle.
          Fr. John R. Shaw
          > > > >
          > >As has been mentioned, it is rare for parishes ever to actually sing the
          > >biblical odes, except for the 9th (the Magnificat), because of time
          > >constraints. Thus, when we sing the "odes" of the canon, we do not
          > >technically sing the (biblical) odes, but only the sets of troparia
          > >which are meant to be sung "upon" each ode-- i.e., interleaved between
          > >the final verses of each, just like we do with the stichera at Lord I
          > >Call and the Praises. This would be like reading only the stichera at
          > >Lord I Call and none of the psalmody.
          > >
          >
          > Using the Biblical Odes in the slightly abbreviated form given in, amongst
          > other places, the Slavonic Himerologion, takes hardly any more time than
          > using the refrains.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >BIBLICAL ODE: (Ode I = Ex 15, Ode II = Dt 32, etc)
          > > Verse (right chanter, if you're doing choirs)
          > > verse (left chanter)
          > > verse (right)
          > > verse (left)
          > > verse (right)
          > > verse (left)
          > > verse (right)
          > > verse (left)
          > > verse (right)
          > > verse (left)
          > > verse +
          > >
          > > CANON I IRMOS (right)
          > > verse + troparion (left)
          > > verse + troparion (right)
          > > verse + troparion (left)
          > > verse + troparion (right)...
          > > final verse + troparion (left)
          > > All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
          > > triadicon (right)
          > > All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
          > > theotokion (left)
          > >
          > > CANON II IRMOS (not taken, I think)
          >
          > The Hirmoi of second and subsequent Canons are not used, with the exception
          > of certain Feasts where the Hirmos is actually part of the Canon.
          >
          >
          > > refrain + troparion (left)
          >
          > Should be RIGHT, and so on subsequently.
          >
          > > refrain + troparion (right)
          > > refrain + troparion (left)
          > > refrain + troparion (right)
          > > All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
          > > triadicon (right)
          > > All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
          > > theotokion (left)
          > >
          > > CANON III IRMOS (not taken, I think)
          > > refrain + troparion (left)
          > > refrain + troparion (right)
          > > refrain + troparion (left)
          > > refrain + troparion (right)
          > > Glory*... + triadicon (left)
          > > Both now.... + theotokion (right)
          > >
          > > refrain + extra troparion (if any) (left)
          > >
          > > KATAVASIA (both choirs; = last irmos).
          > >
          > >Note in this structure what happens at the irmoi, triadica, and
          > >theotokia. Not exactly sure at the moment whether the second and third
          > >irmoi are sung or whether you skip them. The refrains differ for each
          > >canon, according to its subject-matter.
          > >
          > >*At the 8th Ode, "Let us bless Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Lord"
          > >is substituted for "Glory..." so as to warn the priest that it's time to
          > >cense for the 9th Ode.
          > >
          > >As mentioned, though, we usually just skip the biblical ode altogether.
          > >That leaves us with the following structure:
          > >
          > >CANON I (Ex 15, not taken):
          > >
          > >Irmos (right)
          > > refrain + troparion (left)
          > > refrain + troparion (right)...
          > > Glory + triadicon (left)
          > > Both now+ theotokion (right)
          > >katavasia (both)
          > >
          >
          > Glory should be RIGHT, Both now should be LEFT.
          >
          > There is always an EVEN number of Troparia (14 or 12) before the Katavasia.
          >
          > A further point to note is that the ODD numbered Odes (1, 3, 5 , 7 , 9)
          > customarily begin with the right choir whilst the EVEN numbered Odes (2 (in
          > Lent), 4, 6, 8) begin with the LEFT choir.
          >
          >
          >
          > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Missing old school friends? Find them here:
          > http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/7/_/2046/_/959949903/
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
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          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Malcolm Jenner
          ... Better with two readers/singers would be to do it in correct antiphonal manner, with each reader in turn reading one Canticle verse and the associated
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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            At 09:16 02/06/00 -0500, you wrote:
            >CHRIST IS RISEN!
            >
            > No doubt the Canticles were replaced by "refrains" or
            >"acclamations" when only one person read or sang the Canon (or a given
            >section thereof). If he uses the refrains, he does not need to keep his
            >place in two books--he can read from a single book.
            > The solution, of course, is for *two* people to read a Canon
            >where possible: one to take the Tropars of the Canon, the other the
            >verses of the Canticle.
            > Fr. John R. Shaw

            Better with two readers/singers would be to do it in correct antiphonal
            manner, with each reader in turn reading one Canticle verse and the
            associated Troparion of the Canon. There is then time while the alternate
            verses are being read to find your places for the next ones.

            One should also point out that the Canons on most days come from at least
            two different books. Proper antiphonal reading/singing gives you more
            time to find your place in the other book as required.

            Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
          • Mary Lanser
            ... I am only beginning to sort out your complete post and filter in the responses to it but I much say that this paragraph...particularly the part that says
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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              At 01:20 AM 06/02/2000 -0700, Expanding Edge LLC wrote:
              >'Irmos' means 'hinge'; it's a special troparion that summarizes the
              >biblical ode and bridges to the following troparia. Many canons use the
              >same irmoi at each ode; if anything, the irmoi tend to belong to the
              >tone that the canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the
              >specific canon itself. However, this is not an absolute rule.

              I am only beginning to sort out your complete post and filter in the
              responses to it but I much say that this paragraph...particularly the part
              that says that " the irmoi tend to belong to the tone that the canon is
              supposed to be sung in, rather than to the specific canon itself" is more
              than a little confusing....which tone is supposed to belong to what?...or
              some such...what are you saying here?...I have been known to be quite
              dense...bear with me...mary
            • Peter Fekula
              Reply to: Re: [ustav] Canticles and Canons This is not precisely correct. For simple, weekday services, there really is no katavasia. In these cases, the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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                Reply to: Re: [ustav] Canticles and Canons
                This is not precisely correct. For simple, weekday services, there really is no katavasia. In these cases, the irmos of the final (usually third) canon is sung at the end of odes 3, 6, 8 and 9 only.

                However, for feasts -- that is, services of Doxology-rank or higher, and Sundays, a full katavasia is appointed. In other words, a concluding irmos is sung at each ode (1, 3-9).

                This irmos, however, is not taken from the final canon being read at each ode, but is determined by the time of year. The "default" katavasia is the irmoi from the akathist canon to the Theotokos (I shall open my mouth/lips).

                Beyond that, as an example, the irmoi from the 1st canon for Nativity are chanted from the Feast of the Entry into the Temple (Nov. 21) through the eve of Nativity on December 24th. Then, on the Feast day itself, on the 25th, the irmoi of both canons are chanted as the katavasia; then from Dec. 26th until the Apodosis on Dec. 31 they are alternated.

                From the 1st of January until the Apodosis of Theophany, the irmoi of the canon of Theophany are chanted at katavasia. Then, from Jan. 15 until the Apodosis of the Meeting of the Lord, the irmoi from that feast are chanted, and so on (these latter can be displaced at katavasia on the Sundays that fall in that period if there is an appointed katavasia in the Lenten Triodion -- as you can see, it gets somewhat involved).

                There is a table illustrating this at page 237 of the Order of Divine Services published by St. John of Kronstadt Press.

                Peter Fekula

                Expanding Edge LLC wrote:
                >Christ is risen!
                >
                >chantermt@... wrote:
                >> >> Our Canons at Matins assume that there are nine (actually ten) Old
                >> Testament Canticles, on which our Canons are [loosely] based.
                >> >> Part of the difficulty with this portion of our liturgy is the confusing
                >> nomenclature.
                >> >> A "canticle" is a psalm (i.e., a hymn, a poetic text) which is in some >> other book of the Bible than the Book of Psalms.
                >
                >But the nomenclature can be even more confusing because these
                >"canticles" are collected into a separate book of the Septuagint which
                >is usually placed right after the Psalms, called the Book of Odes
                >(Odai). So one should understand that the words 'ode' and 'canticle' are
                >interchangeable.
                >
                >As has been mentioned, it is rare for parishes ever to actually sing the
                >biblical odes, except for the 9th (the Magnificat), because of time
                >constraints. Thus, when we sing the "odes" of the canon, we do not
                >technically sing the (biblical) odes, but only the sets of troparia
                >which are meant to be sung "upon" each ode-- i.e., interleaved between
                >the final verses of each, just like we do with the stichera at Lord I
                >Call and the Praises. This would be like reading only the stichera at
                >Lord I Call and none of the psalmody.
                >
                >'Irmos' means 'hinge'; it's a special troparion that summarizes the
                >biblical ode and bridges to the following troparia. Many canons use the
                >same irmoi at each ode; if anything, the irmoi tend to belong to the
                >tone that the canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the
                >specific canon itself. However, this is not an absolute rule.
                >
                >Each 'ode' (set) of troparia begins with an irmos related to the
                >biblical ode, has an appropriate refrain and a number of troparia, and
                >concludes with a repetition of the irmos. >
                >The books usually appoint two or more canons simultaneously; thus-- >
                >canon 1 ode 1, then >canon 2 ode 1; then >canon 3 ode 1; then
                >
                >canon 1 ode 3, then >canon 2 ode 3; then
                >canon 3 ode 3; then
                >
                >canon 1 ode 4, then >canon 2 ode 4; then >canon 3 ode 4; etc.
                >
                >In this case, the katavasia that comes at the end of each ode is always
                >the irmos that belongs to that ode in the final canon. Now of course
                >because of time constraints your parish may elect not to do all of the
                >appointed canons (on a sunday with a feast day there can be as many as
                >five), but the katavasia is nevertheless always the irmos of the last
                >canon appointed for the day, whether you actually do it or not.
                >
                >Putting it all together, the structure is technically like this for each
                >ode (I've seen the biblical verses and the refrains done by the choir or
                >by a separate chanter):
                >
                >BIBLICAL ODE: (Ode I = Ex 15, Ode II = Dt 32, etc)
                > Verse (right chanter, if you're doing choirs)
                > verse (left chanter) > verse (right)
                > verse (left) > verse (right)
                > verse (left) > verse (right)
                > verse (left) > verse (right)
                > verse (left) > verse + >
                > CANON I IRMOS (right)
                > verse + troparion (left)
                > verse + troparion (right)
                > verse + troparion (left)
                > verse + troparion (right)...
                > final verse + troparion (left)
                > All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
                > triadicon (right)
                > All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
                > theotokion (left)
                >
                > CANON II IRMOS (not taken, I think)
                > refrain + troparion (left)
                > refrain + troparion (right)
                > refrain + troparion (left)
                > refrain + troparion (right)
                > All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
                > triadicon (right)
                > All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
                > theotokion (left)
                >
                > CANON III IRMOS (not taken, I think)
                > refrain + troparion (left)
                > refrain + troparion (right)
                > refrain + troparion (left)
                > refrain + troparion (right)
                > Glory*... + triadicon (left)
                > Both now.... + theotokion (right)
                >
                > refrain + extra troparion (if any) (left)
                >
                > KATAVASIA (both choirs; = last irmos).
                >
                >Note in this structure what happens at the irmoi, triadica, and
                >theotokia. Not exactly sure at the moment whether the second and third
                >irmoi are sung or whether you skip them. The refrains differ for each
                >canon, according to its subject-matter.
                >
                >*At the 8th Ode, "Let us bless Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Lord"
                >is substituted for "Glory..." so as to warn the priest that it's time to
                >cense for the 9th Ode.
                >
                >As mentioned, though, we usually just skip the biblical ode altogether.
                >That leaves us with the following structure:
                >
                >CANON I (Ex 15, not taken):
                >
                >Irmos (right)
                > refrain + troparion (left) > refrain + troparion (right)...
                > Glory + triadicon (left)
                > Both now+ theotokion (right)
                >katavasia (both)
                >
                >
                >
                >Hope all this helps. I needed to write it out for sunday school anyway.
                >
                >Christ is risen indeed!
                >
                >John Burnett
                >
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                > Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:20:52 -0700
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                > Subject: Re: [ustav] Canticles and Canons
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              • Subdeacon Sergius Miller
                Dear Mary, Christ is Risen! I don t understand this paragraph either. When the books direct that a canon is done in tone 2, for example, then the irmos is
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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                  Dear Mary,
                  Christ is Risen!

                  I don't understand this paragraph either. When the books direct that
                  a canon is done in tone 2, for example, then the irmos is sung in
                  tone
                  2 (the tropari also if the tropari are being sung). The irmos is NOT
                  repeated after the theotokion. I would note also that somewhere in
                  the note you're working with, it says that there can be as many as
                  five canons in an ode. Actually, my recollection is that there are
                  never more than 4.

                  In XC,
                  Sergius

                  --- In ustav@egroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@p...> wrote:
                  > At 01:20 AM 06/02/2000 -0700, Expanding Edge LLC wrote:
                  > >'Irmos' means 'hinge'; it's a special troparion that summarizes the
                  > >biblical ode and bridges to the following troparia. Many canons
                  use the
                  > >same irmoi at each ode; if anything, the irmoi tend to belong to
                  the
                  > >tone that the canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the
                  > >specific canon itself. However, this is not an absolute rule.
                  >
                  > I am only beginning to sort out your complete post and filter in
                  the
                  > responses to it but I much say that this paragraph...particularly
                  the part
                  > that says that " the irmoi tend to belong to the tone that the
                  canon is
                  > supposed to be sung in, rather than to the specific canon itself"
                  is more
                  > than a little confusing....which tone is supposed to belong to
                  what?...or
                  > some such...what are you saying here?...I have been known to be
                  quite
                  > dense...bear with me...mary
                • Expanding Edge LLC
                  Christ is risen! ... [very useful corrections] Thank you! Regards, John Burnett
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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                    Christ is risen!

                    Malcolm Jenner wrote:
                    >

                    [very useful corrections]

                    Thank you!

                    Regards,

                    John Burnett
                  • Expanding Edge LLC
                    Christ is risen! ... What I meant here is that the hymnographers tended to use more or less standard irmoi rather than compose new ones, probably since irmoi
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 2, 2000
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                      Christ is risen!

                      Mary Lanser wrote:
                      >
                      > >'Irmos' means 'hinge'; it's a special troparion that summarizes the
                      > >biblical ode and bridges to the following troparia. Many canons use the
                      > >same irmoi at each ode; if anything, the irmoi tend to belong to the
                      > >tone that the canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the
                      > >specific canon itself. However, this is not an absolute rule.
                      >
                      > I am only beginning to sort out your complete post and filter in the
                      > responses to it but I much say that this paragraph...particularly the
                      > part that says that " the irmoi tend to belong to the tone that the
                      > canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the specific canon
                      > itself" is more than a little confusing....which tone is supposed to
                      > belong to what?...or some such...what are you saying here?...

                      Subdeacon Sergius Miller wrote:
                      >
                      > I don't understand this paragraph either. When the books direct that
                      > a canon is done in tone 2, for example, then the irmos is sung in
                      > tone 2 (the tropari also if the tropari are being sung).

                      What I meant here is that the hymnographers tended to use more or less
                      standard irmoi rather than compose new ones, probably since irmoi refer
                      to the biblical odes rather than to the feast. Evidently they felt
                      little need to compose new irmoi for each new canon when nothing was to
                      be said in them that was specific to the reason for the canon in the
                      first place: simpler just to use existing ones, and write new troparia.
                      You'll notice that if the troparia follow an acrostic, the irmos is
                      never part of the acrostic. Also, because several compositions can
                      usually be found for the irmoi in any given tone, hymnographers often
                      seem to have taken some irmoi from one set and others from another, as
                      long as they all belonged to the same tone (and I'm sure an expert would
                      appreciate the intertextualities so created.) But that's why I said the
                      irmoi belong more to the tone, rather than to any specific canon (e.g.,
                      of St. John, or Theotokos, or St. Macrina, etc); again, think of how the
                      acrostics work.

                      > five canons in an ode. Actually, my recollection is that there are
                      > never more than 4.

                      I may stand corrected; I was not sure when I wrote five. But what
                      happens on a Sunday (three canons) if it's your patronal feast and the
                      patron (not Christ or the Theotokos) has two canons?

                      In any case, my point was that usually we cut a lot of these in parish
                      use because of time constraints.

                      Regards,

                      John Burnett
                    • Malcolm Jenner
                      ... Perhaps I can try to amplify what has already been posted in response to this. A canon is written in a particular tone. Each Ode is, in Greek, written in
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 6, 2000
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                        At 11:02 02/06/00 -0400, you wrote:
                        >At 01:20 AM 06/02/2000 -0700, Expanding Edge LLC wrote:
                        >>'Irmos' means 'hinge'; it's a special troparion that summarizes the
                        >>biblical ode and bridges to the following troparia. Many canons use the
                        >>same irmoi at each ode; if anything, the irmoi tend to belong to the
                        >>tone that the canon is supposed to be sung in, rather than to the
                        >>specific canon itself. However, this is not an absolute rule.
                        >
                        >I am only beginning to sort out your complete post and filter in the
                        >responses to it but I much say that this paragraph...particularly the part
                        >that says that " the irmoi tend to belong to the tone that the canon is
                        >supposed to be sung in, rather than to the specific canon itself" is more
                        >than a little confusing....which tone is supposed to belong to what?...or
                        >some such...what are you saying here?...I have been known to be quite
                        >dense...bear with me...mary
                        >

                        Perhaps I can try to amplify what has already been posted in response to this.

                        A canon is written in a particular tone. Each Ode is, in Greek, written
                        in a particular verse structure, which is defined by the Hirmos (which also
                        originally specifies the actual melody to be used). So for most canons
                        the Hirmos is not part of the canon, but merely an indication of the metre
                        and melody to be used for a particular Ode.

                        The Hirmos of the first canon of each Ode is usually sung, but the Hirmoi
                        of the remaining canons are not used unless they actually belong to the
                        canon (as on some Feasts), in which case there is a specific rubric that
                        the Hirmos of the second canon is to be used.

                        The Hirmoi are collected in a book called the Hirmologion, where they are
                        grouped according to the tones. This book exists in Slavonic as well as
                        in Greek.

                        Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                      • Isaac E. Lambertsen
                        Dear list members, Christ is risen! A further point to help fine-tune the template provided by John: one finds that the third troparion of a canon is only
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 6, 2000
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                          Dear list members,

                          Christ is risen!

                          A further point to help fine-tune the template provided by John: one finds
                          that the third troparion of a canon is only occasionally dedicated to the
                          Holy Trinity. Most usually it is dedicated to the saint or event being
                          commemorated. So perhaps the exception should not be included in the
                          template, so as to avoid confusion.

                          Just my thoughts,

                          Sincerely,

                          Isaac Lambertsen

                          ----------

                          >> All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
                          >> triadicon (right)
                          >> All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
                          >> theotokion (left)
                          >>
                          >> CANON II IRMOS (not taken, I think)

                          >> All Holy Trinity, glory to thee! +
                          >> triadicon (right)
                          >> All-Holy Theotokos, save us! +
                          >> theotokion (left)
                          >>
                          >> CANON III IRMOS (not taken, I think)

                          >> Glory*... + triadicon (left)
                          >> Both now.... + theotokion (right)
                          >>
                          >> refrain + extra troparion (if any) (left)
                          >>
                          >> KATAVASIA (both choirs; = last irmos).
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