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[ustav] Re: "twelve times"monks serving

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  • Christopher Rakowski
    On the contrary, I believe that Reader Daniel Olson has quite accurately translated this passage of the Typikon and the bell-ringer is, indeed, instructed to
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 17, 1988
      On the contrary, I believe that Reader Daniel Olson has quite accurately translated this passage of the Typikon and the bell-ringer is, indeed, instructed to recite Ps. 50 twelve times. In the first place, two alternatives are given. The bell-ringer can either sing Ps. 118 in its entirety or recite Ps. 50 repeating it twelve times. Ps. 118 accounts for an entire kathisma of the Psalter in its own right. Therefore to "cover" a roughly similar period time, Ps. 50 would have to be repeated a number of times.
       
      In a private e-mail to me, His Grace Bishop Tikhon has pointed out (if I might presume to take the liberty of quoting him):
       
      "The rubrc about reading Ps 188  OR Ps 50 twelve times, is clearly meant as
      a (pious) way to keep the bell-ringer from rushing, and to indicate how
      long he must take to accomplish twelve tolls: It as much as says, Ring the
      bell twelve times, and leave enough space between each ringing as it takes
      to recite Ps 50."

      I recall that this method, of reciting certain texts as a way of keeping track of how long a period of time had elapsed, was once quite widespread. Mediaeval English texts talk about reciting a certain number of "Hail Marys" to boil an egg, and so on. I also understand that the English verb "to patter" originates from "Pater noster" the first two words of the Lord's Prayer in Latin.
       
      If memory serves, there is a very similar rubric in the Old Roman Rite for the beginning of the Mass of the Presanctified on Good Friday. There the priest is instructed to lie prostrate "for about the time it takes to recite the Miserere".
       
      In Christ,
      Christopher Rakowski.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: R.A. Mlodzik (monk Amvrosi) <714271@...>
      To: ustav@... <ustav@...>
      Date: 01 March 2000 13:38
      Subject: [ustav] "twelve times"monks serving

      	Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch "rings
      the great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times." Surely this is
      the most common error in the English language, that of the misplaced
      modifier: he rings the bell twelve times, whilst reciting psalm fifty
      (once)! 
      	
      
      monk Amvrosi 
      

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    • Christopher Rakowski
      Dear-in-Christ Fr Aidan, I m afraid I haven t been able to locate the direction to lie prostrate for the duration of a Miserere in any liturgical text.The
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 18, 1988
        Dear-in-Christ Fr Aidan,
         
        I'm afraid I haven't been able to locate the direction to lie prostrate for the duration of a "Miserere" in any liturgical text.The Missals I have (all post-Tridentine, I fear) simply give the rubric: "...Sacerdos, et ministri... procedunt ad Altare: et ante illud prostrati aliquamdiu orant." I had suspected that it was in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum, but I haven't spotted it there either. I wonder whether it might, perhaps, appear in the Memoriale Rituum which, although intended for small churches, often "filled in some of the gaps" with regard to certain customs?
         
        I did finally find it in that old classic "The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described" by Adrian Fortescue: "When the celebrant and ministers have lain prostrate for about the time it would take to say the Miserere, they rise". Also the French author Le Vavasseur in "Les Fonctions Pontificales" writes: "Le Pontife et ses Ministres etant restes agenouilles pendant le temps d'un Miserere..."; then De Herdt writes in "Sacrae Liturgiae Praxis, juxta Ritum Romanum": "Prostrati manent tempore unius Miserere..."; finally, Wapelhorst in "Compendium Sacrae Liturgiae juxta Ritum Romanum" writes (and I think he is quoting here from the Memoriale Rituum): "...et procumbit super pulvino posito in secundo gradu, et orat spatio unius Miserere."
         
        Since this practice is attested to by so many different authors, I am inclined to think it was once widespread and probably long-standing, though whether pre-schismatic I could not say.
         
        Christopher.
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Fr. Aidan Keller <hilarion@...>
        To: ustav@egroups.com <ustav@egroups.com>
        Date: 02 March 2000 4:23
        Subject: [ustav] Re: "twelve times"monks serving

        Dear in Christ, Christopher,
         
        You mention that in the Old Roman Rite, the Priest lies prostrate for the space of a Miserere beginning the Presanctified on what was sometimes called "magna feria sexta," "Great Friday."  I would be very interested in this, I have not yet seen that direction, but I know that in many of the old preschismatic English Missals, the kneelings that are done on that day are to be for the space of a Miserere (as some have it) or for the space of an Our Father (as others have it and as we do it), before the kissing of the ground and rising again to the feet.  The instructions for ringing the bells in various Old English uses are quite complex, and somewhat localised, making it difficult to figure out just what to do.  There is also the practice on certain days of ringing the bells all day long in shifts (like for Christmas), and on the very greatest Feasts there is the practice of the "clash" or classicum (ringing all the bells together at once), betokening very great joy.  Also for the departed the bells were rung in very unique ways, with part of the tolling representing the (estimated?) age of the person, one toll for each year of life. 
         
        The maximalism of former generations is sometimes shocking.  It was shocking to me to discover that anciently, at Rome, the Liturgy never began till after the entire Psalter had been chanted.  Apparently this is actually to be taken at face value.  What unworthy successors we are in this generation!
         
        in Christ,

        Fr. Hieromonk Aidan+   a sinner
        St. Hilarion Monastery-New Amalfion
        1905 S. Third St., Austin, Texas  78704-4122
        512/442-2289  fax 512/416-6556
        110 Western Saints Icons: www.prismnet.com/~hilarion

        ^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^

        also see: Orthodox Monasteries in N. America
        www.nettinker.com/monasteries

        ^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^


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      • R.A. Mlodzik (monk Amvrosi)
        Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch rings the great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times. Surely this is the most common
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 29, 2000
          Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch "rings
          the great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times." Surely this is
          the most common error in the English language, that of the misplaced
          modifier: he rings the bell twelve times, whilst reciting psalm fifty
          (once)!


          monk Amvrosi
        • Photius Lipsio
          ~ Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch rings ~ the great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times. Surely this is ~ the most
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
            ~ Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch "rings
            ~ the great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times." Surely this is
            ~ the most common error in the English language, that of the misplaced
            ~ modifier: he rings the bell twelve times, whilst reciting psalm fifty
            ~ (once)!
            You are correct ! Please note, however, that I did not mis-translate it, but
            rather was quoting the translation by someone else given in an earlier email. I
            was, however, at fault for knowingly transmitting the error, which I did for
            lack of time for a proper answer.
          • Veronika
            I am really sorry - but the truth is, that he is reciting Psalm 50 - twelve time, while ringing. Here is the quotation from the Typicon: ...v velikiy kampan
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
              I am really sorry - but the truth is, that he is reciting Psalm 50 -
              twelve time, while ringing. Here is the quotation from the Typicon: "
              ...v velikiy kampan ne skoro, poya neporochny ili psalm 50, tiho,
              12-u". I'll try to translate: "..in to the big bell, slowly, singing
              Neporochny (it is the 17'th Cathisma) or Psalm 50, twelve times". I
              think you'll agree, that there is a differents in the length of Ps.118
              and Ps.50, so the reason to read it 12 times is obvious.

              In Christ, Veronika



              "r.a. mlodzik (monk amvrosi)" <71427-@...> wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/ustav/?start=4411
              > Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch "rings
              > the great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times." Surely this
              is
              > the most common error in the English language, that of the misplaced
              > modifier: he rings the bell twelve times, whilst reciting psalm fifty
              > (once)!
              >
              >
              > monk Amvrosi
              >
            • Daniel Olson
              ... Skaballonovich, in his The Typicon Interpreted, says this about the passage in question: The duration of the tolling of the one bell ought to be equal
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
                On 29 Feb 2000, Monk Amvrosi wrote:

                > Photius Lipsio comments on the direction that the ecclesiarch "rings the
                >great bell while reciting psalm fifty twelve times." Surely this is the
                >most common error in the English language, that of the misplaced modifier:
                >he rings the bell twelve times, whilst reciting psalm fifty (once)!

                Skaballonovich, in his "The Typicon Interpreted," says this about the
                passage in question:

                "The duration of the tolling of the one bell ought to be equal to the time
                during which one may sing Psalm 118 or Psalm 50 twelve times"

                A little further on, he says:

                "The tolling for the Vigil is supposed to be accompanied by the singing of
                the "Blameless," i.e., Psalm 118, or the reading of Psalm 50 twelve times."

                It is clear that the twelve-fold recitation of Psalm 50 is intended to
                approximate the length of Psalm 118.

                Daniel Olson
                ______________________________________________________
              • proto alban
                can someone on this list please tell me when the great canon of St. Andrew of Crete is served? I have the Triodion, but cannot find it. Thanks in advance,
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
                  can someone on this list please tell me when the great canon of St.
                  Andrew of Crete is served?
                  I have the Triodion, but cannot find it.
                  Thanks in advance, Seraphim
                • Deacon James Carles
                  ... The Great Canon is served at Great Compline on the first four days of Great Lent, broken into 4 parts. It is then served in full at Matins on the Thursday
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
                    alban-@... (proto alban) wrote:
                    > can someone on this list please tell me when the great canon of St.
                    > Andrew of Crete is served?
                    > I have the Triodion, but cannot find it.
                    > Thanks in advance, Seraphim
                    >
                    The Great Canon is served at Great Compline on the first four days of
                    Great Lent, broken into 4 parts. It is then served in full at Matins
                    on the Thursday of the Great Canon (Thursday in the fifth week). I
                    don't have the Triodion handy, but if you mean the English Triodion,
                    I'm sure it *is* included. You may want to check again...

                    In Christ,

                    Deacon James Carles
                  • R.A. Mlodzik (monk Amvrosi)
                    Thanks to Veronika and Daniel Olson for the clarifications on just what twelve times modifies in the original. It takes about two minutes to chant psalm 50
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
                      Thanks to Veronika and Daniel Olson for the clarifications on just
                      what "twelve times" modifies in the original.
                      It takes about two minutes to chant psalm 50 in English at a quick
                      pace (2x12=24) thus 24 minutes to ring the bell. It takes about twelve
                      minutes to chant psalm 118. Obviously, there is no literal equivalent
                      between the two formulae. In the good ol' days, I am told, a monk
                      couldn't possibly be tonsured unless he had the whole psalter
                      memorised, and in that context, perhaps the rubric makes some kind of
                      intuitive sense: ring the bell slowly. I find it difficult to believe
                      that, the community already gathered in church, the service would be
                      delayed by taking more than twenty minutes to ring the bell.
                      Am I correct in assuming that the bell is struck twelve times (that is
                      the wisdom I received)? In the case of ps 50, the bell, thus, would be
                      struck once every two minutes. In the case of ps 118, once every
                      minute.
                      Are there any bell-ringers in the group familiar with the traditions?
                      Very often, as we all know, the typikon says one thing, and something
                      quite other becomes the "tradition".
                      Again, thanks for the corrections and clarifications.

                      monk Amvrosi
                    • Fr. Aidan Keller
                      Dear in Christ, Christopher, You mention that in the Old Roman Rite, the Priest lies prostrate for the space of a Miserere beginning the Presanctified on what
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 1, 2000
                        Dear in Christ, Christopher,
                         
                        You mention that in the Old Roman Rite, the Priest lies prostrate for the space of a Miserere beginning the Presanctified on what was sometimes called "magna feria sexta," "Great Friday."  I would be very interested in this, I have not yet seen that direction, but I know that in many of the old preschismatic English Missals, the kneelings that are done on that day are to be for the space of a Miserere (as some have it) or for the space of an Our Father (as others have it and as we do it), before the kissing of the ground and rising again to the feet.  The instructions for ringing the bells in various Old English uses are quite complex, and somewhat localised, making it difficult to figure out just what to do.  There is also the practice on certain days of ringing the bells all day long in shifts (like for Christmas), and on the very greatest Feasts there is the practice of the "clash" or classicum (ringing all the bells together at once), betokening very great joy.  Also for the departed the bells were rung in very unique ways, with part of the tolling representing the (estimated?) age of the person, one toll for each year of life. 
                         
                        The maximalism of former generations is sometimes shocking.  It was shocking to me to discover that anciently, at Rome, the Liturgy never began till after the entire Psalter had been chanted.  Apparently this is actually to be taken at face value.  What unworthy successors we are in this generation!
                         
                        in Christ,

                        Fr. Hieromonk Aidan+   a sinner
                        St. Hilarion Monastery-New Amalfion
                        1905 S. Third St., Austin, Texas  78704-4122
                        512/442-2289  fax 512/416-6556
                        110 Western Saints Icons: www.prismnet.com/~hilarion

                        ^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^

                        also see: Orthodox Monasteries in N. America
                        www.nettinker.com/monasteries

                        ^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^

                      • Subdeacon Sergius Miller
                        Dear Seraphim, In the Lenten Triodion of Mother Mary/Bishop Kallistos see the following pages: 198ff., 218ff., 237ff., 255ff., 377-8ff. I hope this helps. In
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 2, 2000
                          Dear Seraphim,
                          In the Lenten Triodion of Mother Mary/Bishop Kallistos see the
                          following pages:
                          198ff., 218ff., 237ff., 255ff., 377-8ff.
                          I hope this helps.
                          In Christ,
                          Sbdn. Sergius


                          "deacon james carles" <odyako-@...> wrote:
                          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/ustav/?start=4423
                          > alban-@... (proto alban) wrote:
                          > > can someone on this list please tell me when the great canon of St.
                          > > Andrew of Crete is served?
                          > > I have the Triodion, but cannot find it.
                          > > Thanks in advance, Seraphim
                          > >
                          > The Great Canon is served at Great Compline on the first four days of
                          > Great Lent, broken into 4 parts. It is then served in full at Matins
                          > on the Thursday of the Great Canon (Thursday in the fifth week). I
                          > don't have the Triodion handy, but if you mean the English Triodion,
                          > I'm sure it *is* included. You may want to check again...
                          >
                          > In Christ,
                          >
                          > Deacon James Carles
                          >
                        • X140@aol.com
                          I remember being tought that when the Blagovest is rung, Psalm 50 should be chanted by the bell ringer between each strike so as to space the strikes out
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 2, 2000
                            I remember being tought that when the " Blagovest" is rung, Psalm 50
                            should be chanted by the bell ringer between each strike so as to space the
                            strikes out properly. Since this is the call to worship, I've always assumed
                            that this would give plenty of time for the community to assamble. I was
                            also tought that a way ti "time" the strikes is to wait until the strike note
                            fades out.... In the case of bells which take 2-4 ringers to ring the
                            Blagovest, this could take quite a while beyond two minutes! I've always
                            assumed that Psalm 50 is a good "marker" for time, and certainly good for the
                            bell ringer!
                            Along the lines of bell ringing, I hope the Ustavniks can help me out
                            with a few questions concerning Great Lent and Holy Week.
                            1. During weekdays of Great lent, how should the bells be rung, if at all?
                            Is the Blagovest rung before services?- if so, on the Great Bell or on a
                            lesser bell ? Is the trezvon rung at all?

                            2. What about on Saturdays and Sundays?

                            3. How should the bells be rung properly during Holy Week?

                            4. Are there any times when the bells are forbidden to be rung?

                            5. Has anyone heard of the practice of, during the reading of the Gospel on
                            pascha, to strike the Great Bell twelve times?

                            Also, can anyone help me with various bell traditions throughout the year?
                            Are there any diferences in Russian, Serbian, Greek, Bulgarian etc. rules for
                            bell ringing? Is it possible to obtain the various Ustavs for bells?

                            See what happens when you bring a "lurker" out of the background? Thank you
                            all in advance for your help. In Christ, Dn John
                          • Deacon James Carles
                            ... Here s something from Archpriest Rostislav Gan of blessed memory. The link to the original is (I think): http://www.ocf.org/orthodoxpage/read
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 2, 2000
                              Deacon John (x14-@...) wrote:
                              > Is it possible to obtain the various Ustavs for bells?

                              Here's something from Archpriest Rostislav Gan of blessed memory. The
                              link to the original is (I think): http://www.ocf.org/orthodoxpage/read
                              ing/on.bells.html

                              Hope this helps/is of interest.

                              In Christ,

                              Deacon James Carles
                              fr.james.carles@...
                              St Nicholas
                              Fairfield/Sydney/Australia


                              On Bells

                              -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ---------

                              The ringing of the bells serves two functions in the Orthodox Church.
                              The first is for calling the faithful to divine services, and the
                              second is to announce the beginning of various parts of the services to
                              those faithful who are absent from the church.

                              The different manners or ways of ringing

                              1) Blagovest - literally "Good News." This is the measured striking of
                              one bell for the beginning of a service.

                              2) Zvon - literally "Peal." This is the ringing of all bells.

                              3) Dvuzvon - literally "Double Peal." This is the ringing of all bells
                              then an interval of silence, followed by a second ringing of all bells.
                              Simply put, this is the ringing of all bells twice.

                              4) Trezvon - literally "Treble Peal." This is the ringing of all bells
                              three times.

                              5) Perezvon - "Chain-peal." This is the striking of each bell several
                              times beginning with the largest bell and proceeding to the smallest
                              bell. This chain is repeated as long as necessary. This is used before
                              any Blessing of Water.

                              6) Perebor - "Chain-toll." The slow striking of each bell once
                              beginning from the largest bell and proceeding to the smallest bell.
                              After the chain, all bells are rung together. This is repeated several
                              times. This is also called burial or funeral ringing.

                              Bell Ringing at All-Night Vigil

                              The blagovest is rung before the service and is immediately followed by
                              the trezvon. At the beginning of the reading of the Hexapsalmion or
                              before it the dvuzvon takes place. Immediately before the reading of
                              the Gospel, the zvon takes place. During the Magnificat the bell is
                              struck nine times. At the conculsion of the Vigil, the trezvon is rung.

                              Bell Ringing at the Divine Liturgy

                              The blagovest is rung at the appointed time and ceases at the beginning
                              of the Hours. At the endof the 6th hour the trezvon is rung. At the end
                              of the Creed, which consists of 12 parts, the bell is struck 12 times
                              in a unhurried fashion to inform those Christians who are absent that
                              the time of the Consecration of the Holy Gifts approaches. After the
                              Liturgy the trezvon is rung.

                              At Lenten and Royal Hours

                              Before the Hours during Great Lent and at Royal Hours, the number of
                              times the bell is struck corresponds to which Hour is being read. At
                              the Third Hour, the bell is struck three times, at the 6th, six times,
                              and at the 9th, nine times.

                              Vespers of Holy Friday

                              At the bringing out of the Plaschanitsa and before the procession
                              around the church the perebor is rung and immediately thereafter the
                              trezvon.

                              Bell Ringing at Funerals

                              The perebor is used at the carrying out of the deceased from the temple
                              for burial. There is no trezvon after this bell.

                              Bell Ringing at Moliebens with the Blessing of Water

                              When the cross is immersed into the water, a short trezvon takes place.

                              Bell Ringing at the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy

                              The blagovest is sounded at appointed time. As the Hierarch approaches
                              the temple, all the bells are rung. When the Hierarch enters the
                              temple, the ringing stops and the blagovest is resumed until the
                              beginning of the vesting of the Hierarch. At the beginning of the Sixth
                              hour the trezvon is sounded unless there is an ordination to the rank
                              of reader or to the subdiaconate, in which case the trezvon is sounded
                              after the Bishop's prayers before the Divine Liturgy.



                              -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ---------

                              -From Archpriest Rostislav Gan's explanations of the Divine services.


                              Translated and edited from the Russian by Rev. Victor Sokolov and
                              Kirill Sokolov.
                            • Deacon James Carles
                              ... Yes, the copy of my posting that came to me appeared to split the URL in half. Here it is again: http://www.ocf.org/orthodoxpage/reading/on.bells.html
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 2, 2000
                                Ioanna (biljana.aleksovsk-@...) wrote:
                                > no link with that URL.

                                Yes, the copy of my posting that came to me appeared to split the URL
                                in half. Here it is again:

                                http://www.ocf.org/orthodoxpage/reading/on.bells.html

                                Deacon James Carles (a close friend of Ioanna)
                              • biljana.aleksovski@db.com
                                Hello Fr. James how are you? no link with that URL. it s not long until Lent now. My new boss started on Monday. she is wonderful. very approachable,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 2, 2000
                                  Hello Fr. James
                                  how are you? no link with that URL.
                                  it's not long until Lent now.
                                  My new boss started on Monday. she is wonderful. very approachable, professional
                                  and friendly. Things are looking better already.
                                  Bye
                                  ioanna
                                • biljana.aleksovski@db.com
                                  Please diregard this message. It was not meant for the USTAV list. Very sorry Ioanna ... From: biljana.aleksovski@db.com on 03/03/2000 05:36 GMT Please respond
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 2, 2000
                                    Please diregard this message. It was not meant for the USTAV list.
                                    Very sorry
                                    Ioanna


                                    ---------------------------------------- Message History
                                    ----------------------------------------


                                    From: biljana.aleksovski@... on 03/03/2000 05:36 GMT

                                    Please respond to ustav@egroups.com

                                    To: ustav@egroups.com
                                    cc:
                                    Subject: [ustav] Re: Rubrics for Bell Ringing




                                    Hello Fr. James
                                    how are you? no link with that URL.
                                    it's not long until Lent now.
                                    My new boss started on Monday. she is wonderful. very approachable, professional
                                    and friendly. Things are looking better already.
                                    Bye
                                    ioanna



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                                  • Orthodixie@aol.com
                                    ... Our Parish just recently purchased *a* bell. It, alone, will have to do till we either create some out of gas cylinders or -- we can all dream -- buy some
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 3, 2000
                                      > http://www.ocf.org/orthodoxpage/reading/on.bells.html

                                      Our Parish just recently purchased *a* bell. It, alone, will have to do till
                                      we either create some out of gas cylinders or -- we can all dream -- buy some
                                      cast bells.

                                      Question: What would be the appropriate rubrics using a single bell? Should
                                      it be used ONLY for Blagovest (i.e., the beginning of a service; the Hours,
                                      the Creed). Or can it "fill in," in some measure, for the others (Zvon,
                                      Dvuzvon, Trezvon, Perezvon, and Perebor)?


                                      Fr Joseph Huneycutt
                                      St Nicholas Church (ROCOR) - Fletcher, NC
                                      http://www.stnicholasparish.org/
                                    • Timothy Hojnicki
                                      Dear Father Joseph: I know the feeling... You see all the rubrics for bells and you yourself only have one...kinda tricky. At my parish we ring ours at the
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 3, 2000
                                        Dear Father Joseph:
                                        I know the feeling... You see all the rubrics for bells and you yourself
                                        only have one...kinda tricky. At my parish we ring ours at the begining of
                                        all services....12 times at the creed....and a few other times like on
                                        Pascha, funerals, etc. I agree a few more would make things easier to follow
                                        directions....
                                        In XC,
                                        Timothy Hojnicki
                                        ______________________________________________________
                                        Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
                                      • Orthodixie@aol.com
                                        ... The 12 times at the Creed: Is it permissible to ring the bell at the beginning of each verse of the Symbol of Faith? Also, and this may come from my
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 3, 2000
                                          > At my parish we ring ours at the begining of
                                          > all services....12 times at the creed....and a few other times like on
                                          > Pascha, funerals, etc.

                                          The 12 times at the Creed: Is it permissible to ring the bell at the
                                          beginning of each verse of the Symbol of Faith?

                                          Also, and this may come from my Episcopalian background, is it permissible to
                                          ring the bell(s) at the Epiclesis (Consecration)?

                                          Again, I would appreciate any assistance as, for now, we have only one bell.



                                          Fr Joseph Huneycutt
                                          St Nicholas Church (ROCOR) - Fletcher, NC
                                          http://www.stnicholasparish.org/
                                        • X140@aol.com
                                          Father Bless. The following is too long to post asa reply, HTC: On Bells and Their Ringing I hope
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 3, 2000
                                            Father Bless.
                                            The following is too long to post asa reply, <A
                                            HREF="http://www.holy-trinity.org/bells/onbells.html">HTC: On Bells and Their
                                            Ringing</A> I hope it helps. We strike our Great Bell for each article of
                                            the Creed, and then ring a trezvon at "It is Truly Meet". This way, shut-ins
                                            can better follow and pray along at home. i hope my earleir e-mail was of
                                            some help to you. In Christ, Dn John
                                          • Timothy Hojnicki
                                            Dear Father... When we finally got out bell hooked up to be rung in the chior loft from the bell tower we were bell crazy.... during the creed we rang it after
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Mar 5, 2000
                                              Dear Father...
                                              When we finally got out bell hooked up to be rung in the chior loft from the
                                              bell tower we were bell crazy.... during the creed we rang it after every
                                              verse...and this fluctuated depending on the selection of the week.... Then
                                              our new priest told us to ring it only after the 12 articles of faith. St.
                                              Tikhon's Press "these truths we hold" has a page that divides the creed into
                                              12 parts...we copied that and use it in the choir. As for other
                                              times....sadly everyone does it a little bit different. Some ring it at the
                                              "Take eat" "Drink of it all of you" and I've head it done during "We praise
                                              Thee" at the epiclesis. Im not sure the "correct" way because I have seen it
                                              printed a few different ways in a few difernt books. Anyone else who can
                                              straighten me out...I'd greatly appreciate it.
                                              In XC,
                                              Tim Hojnicki
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