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[ustav] Re: Archimandrites

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  • kudut@mystics.bungi.com
    [...] ... Father, Bless! That is, indeed, quite sad, for as one of the teeming millions of faithful, hierarchical liturgies are quite a special occasion. I
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 4, 1999
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      [...]
      > Accompanying this is a reverse phenomenon - bishops who do not care
      >to offer the hierarchal service (perhaps out of a misguided sense of
      >humility). One can fairly easily find bishops who make disparging remarks
      >about the hierarchal service (one prominent Russian-speaking hierarch
      >enjoys commenting about the contrast between "Bogosluzhenie" and
      >"Arkhiereosluzhenie", refusing either to serve the Hierarchal Liturgy
      >himself or to permit his vicars to do so). The Ecumenical Patriarch of
      >Constantinople seldom serves at all; His All Holiness (accompanied by an
      >entourage of Metropolitans who also do not serve) attends divine services
      >and gives blessings.
      >
      >(Archimandrite) Serge

      Father, Bless!

      That is, indeed, quite sad, for as one of the teeming millions
      of faithful, hierarchical liturgies are quite a special occasion.

      I have heard that it can drive priests and deacons near to
      insanity, but there is little that can compare. :)

      --
      Each day, it seems I begin again to be made pure, to see.
      In a fathomless abyss, in a measureless heaven,
      who can find a middle or an end?
      [kudut@...] St Symeon the New Theologian

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    • Len Ruck
      Someone said: The Ecumenical Patriarch of ... The canons say: It is more than just sad. If a bishop fails to preach the gospel for more than seven days, he is
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 4, 1999
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        Someone said:
        The Ecumenical Patriarch of
        >>Constantinople seldom serves at all; His All Holiness (accompanied by an
        >>entourage of Metropolitans who also do not serve) attends divine services
        >>and gives blessings.

        Someone else said:
        >That is, indeed, quite sad, for as one of the teeming millions
        >of faithful, hierarchical liturgies are quite a special occasion.

        The canons say:
        It is more than just sad. If a bishop fails to preach the gospel for more
        than seven days, he is to be deposed.
        -----Original Message-----
        From: kudut@... <kudut@...>
        To: ustav@egroups.com <ustav@egroups.com>
        Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 6:12 PM
        Subject: [ustav] Re: Archimandrites


        >[...]
        >> Accompanying this is a reverse phenomenon - bishops who do not
        care
        >>to offer the hierarchal service (perhaps out of a misguided sense of
        >>humility). One can fairly easily find bishops who make disparging remarks
        >>about the hierarchal service (one prominent Russian-speaking hierarch
        >>enjoys commenting about the contrast between "Bogosluzhenie" and
        >>"Arkhiereosluzhenie", refusing either to serve the Hierarchal Liturgy
        >>himself or to permit his vicars to do so). The Ecumenical Patriarch of
        >>Constantinople seldom serves at all; His All Holiness (accompanied by an
        >>entourage of Metropolitans who also do not serve) attends divine services
        >>and gives blessings.
        >>
        >>(Archimandrite) Serge
        >
        >Father, Bless!
        >
        >That is, indeed, quite sad, for as one of the teeming millions
        >of faithful, hierarchical liturgies are quite a special occasion.
        >
        >I have heard that it can drive priests and deacons near to
        >insanity, but there is little that can compare. :)
        >
        >--
        >Each day, it seems I begin again to be made pure, to see.
        > In a fathomless abyss, in a measureless heaven,
        > who can find a middle or an end?
        >[kudut@...] St Symeon the New Theologian
        >
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      • Serge Keleher
        The blessing of the Lord! Whoever kudut@mystics.bungi.com (and that doesn t sound like a Christian name, but the times favor innovation) may be I fully agree
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 5, 1999
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          The blessing of the Lord!
          Whoever kudut@... (and that doesn't sound like a
          Christian name, but the times favor innovation) may be I fully agree that a
          complete Hierarchal Divine Liturgy is an incomparable joy. You may be sure
          that there are priests, deacons, subdeacons and chanters around who will
          and do make considerable efforts to enable such celebrations to take place.
          May God bless us all with many such celebrations, in this new year of grace
          and throughout our lives. I won't speculate on what may await us in the
          Eternal Kingdom, but the Biblical descriptions of the heavenly Liturgy are
          attractive - to put it mildly.

          (Archimandrite) Serge

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        • Serge Keleher
          The refusal of hierarchs - or any other clergy, for that matter - to offer the divine services is, I quite agree, both sad and gravely uncanonical. It might
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 5, 1999
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            The refusal of hierarchs - or any other clergy, for that matter -
            to offer the divine services is, I quite agree, both sad and gravely
            uncanonical. It might also provoke one to ask such hierarchs or other
            clergy just what it is that is of such overwhelming importance as to impede
            them from doing what they have been ordained to do.

            Father Michael Hayduk comments that:
            " Reading the discussions regarding hierarchical liturgies, ranks, etc.,
            I
            have seen another problem -- lack of personnel for the proper celebration
            of
            the Hierarchical Liturgy. There have been occasions when our bishops have
            had to opt for the "presbyteral" form of celebration because there were not
            enough clergy and servers to serve the hierarchical form. This is most
            noticeable at parish visitations."
            Most of us have experienced that problem at one time or another. In
            diaspora conditions it may be inevitable that it will occur once in a
            while. But that doesn't stop us from taking steps to reduce the number of
            such occasions. Training a good drill team of adult men to serve as
            subdeacons (and, indeed, presenting them for ordination to the rank of
            subdeacon) is possible in almost any parish (and will help destroy the myth
            that service at the Altar is for "altar boys" only); this might help foster
            vocations to the diaconate.
            One Archbishop who is now reposed took a very practical, if small,
            step in the right direction by requiring every parish to possess a pair of
            dikirotrikira, a set of eagle rugs, and sticharia for adult acolytes,
            thereby reducing the quantity of luggage that the hierarch had to carry
            with him. In the diaspora our bishops must often travel relatively long
            distances; if we can anticipate the need for certain items and provide them
            on site, so that the hierarch doesn't have to carry a large quantity of
            liturgical luggage, this might help matters.
            Daniel Olsen comments that assembling the full team for a
            Hierarchal Divine Liturgy can be a problem in a small parish, but that one
            can manage a respectable Hierarchal Divine Liturgy with a reduced number of
            assistants. Daniel is right, provided that among the reduced number there
            are some seriously qualified people, particularly the one deacon and the
            one subdeacon, who must know exactly what they are doing and be able to
            direct amateur help smoothly. I disagree slightly with Daniel on the matter
            of presbyters: if at all possible, one wants a minimum of two presbyters
            for a Hierarchal Divine Liturgy, for both practical and symbolic reasons.
            A colleague of ours - Father Nicholas, pastor in Salzburg, Austria
            - just went through this a few weeks ago when on relatively short notice
            Bishop Julian of Drohobych visited Salzburg. Thank God, all went well, with
            the aid of a deacon from Vienna and subdeacons from Innsbruck. But it did
            take much planning and considerable effort; these things do not fall into
            place automatically.
            (Archimandrite) Serge

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          • Fr. John Morris
            ... How many clergy are required for an hierarchial Divine Liturgy. Bishop Basil just visited my parish and we had an hierarchial Divine Liturgy with His
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 5, 1999
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              > There have been occasions when our bishops have
              > had to opt for the "presbyteral" form of celebration because there were not
              > enough clergy and servers to serve the hierarchical form. This is most
              > noticeable at parish visitations."
              >

              How many clergy are required for an hierarchial Divine Liturgy. Bishop Basil
              just visited my parish and we had an hierarchial Divine Liturgy with His Grace,
              myself and a few altar boys.

              Archpriest John W. Morris


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            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              No doubt John Dean will answer this in meticulous detail, but for a traditional Russian pontifical service there should be at least two priests, three
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 5, 1999
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                No doubt John Dean will answer this in meticulous detail, but for a
                traditional Russian "pontifical service" there should be at least two
                priests, three deacons, two subdeacons, two ripidchiki and a book-bearer,
                in addition to other acolytes who hold the bishop's staff [zhezl],
                standing candlestick [held by a "primikiri"], and still others to take
                care of lesser tasks. At Jordanville in my day, and probably now as well,
                there used to be a table of duties placed on the bulletin board near the
                refectory entrance listing who was scheduled for each of those positions
                for every Sunday and feast.

                On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Fr. John Morris wrote:

                > > There have been occasions when our bishops have
                > > had to opt for the "presbyteral" form of celebration because there were not
                > > enough clergy and servers to serve the hierarchical form. This is most
                > > noticeable at parish visitations."
                > >
                >
                > How many clergy are required for an hierarchial Divine Liturgy. Bishop Basil
                > just visited my parish and we had an hierarchial Divine Liturgy with His Grace,
                > myself and a few altar boys.
                >
                > Archpriest John W. Morris
                >
                >
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              • Askfrjohn@aol.com
                I have done a little bit of research on this... and offer the following as its fruit (such as it is) lest we presume too much by way of telling Bishops what
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 5, 1999
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                  I have done a little bit of research on this... and offer the following as its
                  fruit (such as it is) lest we presume too much by way of telling Bishops what
                  they should and shouldn't do. In the Greek tradition, there are a limited
                  number of hierarchical liturgies that the Bishop is appointed to serve. There
                  is an established typicon for Bishops in terms of hierarchical
                  services--where, when and why, etc. I don't presume to know it all, but I do
                  know that (at least in the Greek tradition) it is very conservative.

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                • kudut@mystics.bungi.com
                  ... Father, Bless! That is, indeed, my hope! [to one day participate in the liturgy in heaven! Indeed, is not much of this practice in a sense, for eternal
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 5, 1999
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                    In article <199901051157_MC2-6576-ED3D@...>, you wrote:
                    >The blessing of the Lord!
                    > Whoever kudut@... (and that doesn't sound like a
                    >Christian name, but the times favor innovation) may be I fully agree that a
                    >complete Hierarchal Divine Liturgy is an incomparable joy. You may be sure
                    >that there are priests, deacons, subdeacons and chanters around who will
                    >and do make considerable efforts to enable such celebrations to take place.
                    >May God bless us all with many such celebrations, in this new year of grace
                    >and throughout our lives. I won't speculate on what may await us in the
                    >Eternal Kingdom, but the Biblical descriptions of the heavenly Liturgy are
                    >attractive - to put it mildly.
                    >
                    >(Archimandrite) Serge

                    Father, Bless!

                    That is, indeed, my hope! [to one day participate in the liturgy in
                    heaven! Indeed, is not much of this 'practice' in a sense, for
                    eternal celebration of the liturgy?!]

                    As far as my name goes, my name is Kenneth. At the time I
                    was received into the Church, I did not know that I should choose
                    a name. [if I had known, I most certainly would have!] My priest
                    (in the Carpatho-Rusyn diocese in the US, under the EP) later said
                    that he felt that, since there are two Saint Kenneths (both
                    pre-schism), that there was no need for me to change my name.

                    He had thought he was doing me a favor, but as I was only the
                    second convert he had received in his 20+ yrs of priesthood, I
                    have to give him the benefit of the doubt here :)

                    I had been advised by other priests that I might occasionally
                    get a questioning eyebrow upon hearing my name, and I hope one
                    day God will find a way to correct this. I am not of the
                    mindset of, "Keep your name, and make yourself a saint", which
                    strikes me as a ilttle odd. Of course, should God choose for
                    me to keep this name until my earthly sojourn is over, then
                    I suppose I cannot despair, for I have no doubt, in any case,
                    that St Kenneth hears my prayers, and perhaps is glad to have
                    someone ask him to pray for!

                    [so yes, if providence has it that there is an opportunity for
                    a more Orthodox name to be given to me, I will not hesitate :) ]

                    But, for now, as with more things than I like to think of at times,
                    as far as I know, patience is required on my part.

                    -Kenneth

                    --
                    Each day, it seems I begin again to be made pure, to see.
                    In a fathomless abyss, in a measureless heaven,
                    who can find a middle or an end?
                    [kudut@...] St Symeon the New Theologian

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                  • Rev. John R. Shaw
                    Regarding the services of bishops, of course the picture has varied from time to time and place to place. In Russia before the revolution, I am told that
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 6, 1999
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                      Regarding the services of bishops, of course the picture has varied from
                      time to time and place to place. In Russia before the revolution, I am
                      told that bishops rarely celebrated in their cathedrals, but rather in the
                      "bishop's churches" at their residences. This is why a priest was usually
                      the "pastor" of the cathedral. But today most bishops celebrate in their
                      cathedrals or visit parishes every Sunday and feast.
                      Some bishops, indeed, seem to prefer a simpler manner of
                      celebration. Thus for example our Archbishop Alypy rarely goes to the
                      church in procession ("so slavoyu") or vests in the midst of the church.
                      On the other hand, when I was with Vl. Nikon, he would invariably vest in
                      the middle of the church, including one occasion when there was no
                      congregation and I was the only server.
                      Of course we ought not to "judge" on this basis. How would we as
                      parish priests like it if people "rated" our ways and habits, liturgical
                      choices, and the like?


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                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                      If some raise a brow at the name Kenneth , it is because this does not sound like a Greek or Hellenized name. There are thousands of Saints, many of whom they
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 6, 1999
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                        If some raise a brow at the name "Kenneth", it is because this does not
                        sound like a Greek or Hellenized name. There are thousands of Saints, many
                        of whom they have never heard of. His name in Latin is often spelled
                        "Cannicius", so if you were to call yourself "Kannikios", maybe that would
                        help!
                        Remember also that the Orthodox Serbs have a family Slava (i.e.
                        the feast on which their ancestors were baptized) and do not for the most
                        part have Saints' names.
                        For the Chicago-Detroit Diocese, Archbishop Alypy designed
                        calligraphic baptismal certificates, which include a line specifying what
                        the patronal feast of the person baptized is to be.


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                      • Serge Keleher
                        The Lord bless us all! In response to Bishop Tikhon s question: I am unaware of any Roman Catholic authority that awards the title of Archimandrite to anyone
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 1 1:22 PM
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                          The Lord bless us all!

                          In response to Bishop Tikhon's question:

                          I am unaware of any Roman Catholic authority that awards the title
                          of Archimandrite to anyone (that I am not aware of it doesn't necessarily
                          prove that it has not happened, but I do tend to keep my ears open for such
                          phenomena).
                          The Greek-Catholics have the custom (found also in the Greek
                          Orthodox Church) of awarding the title of Archimandrite as an honorific to
                          any unmarried presbyter whom the awarding authority chooses to honor in
                          that way. Just when this practice began I don't know.
                          The Slav Churches, both Orthodox and Greek-Catholic, picked up from
                          the Roman Catholics the custom of awarding various pontifical insignia (the
                          mitre, the crozier, sometimes even the dikero-trikera) to Archimandrites -
                          the Roman Catholics do not have Archimandrites, but they do have Mitred
                          Abbots and Protonotaries Apostolic. One compelling reason for this practice
                          was monetary: the Russian Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire paid (in
                          their respective territories) the salaries and expenses of the hierarchs.
                          In consequence, the dioceses tended to be vast, and it was convenient for
                          the bishops to have minor prelates whom they could dispatch hither and
                          thither to serve for a patronal feast day or some similar celebration.
                          In theory, the Greek-Catholic Patriarch of Antioch can bestow the
                          title of Archimandrite on any priest of his choosing, and I believe, though
                          I'm not sure that I could cite specific cases, that His Holiness has
                          occasionally done this in favor of a Roman Catholic priest. To be certain,
                          I would need to go through many back issues of Le Lien.
                          I am aware, though, of an occasion about 30 years ago when the
                          Orthodox Patriarch of Romania saw fit to make a Catholic Benedictine
                          priest-monk an Archimandrite. Archimandrite Daniel (the beneficiary of this
                          act) is now reposed, but I had the pleasure of knowing him and so did quite
                          a few other people.
                          Bishop Tikhon is entitled to be surprised by whatever His Grace
                          finds surprising. However the surname "Keleher" [properly spelled
                          O'Ceileachair, but that's a bit difficult for most people in the USA] is of
                          purely Irish origin, coming originally from the younger brother of Brian
                          Boroimhe ("Boru"), and found for many centuries in Kerry and West Cork, so
                          it seems strange that anyone would be shocked to find that the holder of
                          such a surname is serving in Ireland.
                          Archimandrite Boniface of Mount Tabor Monastery in California is
                          among those professors who have at various times attempted to educate me,
                          and I remain ever grateful to him for that effort. Being his student,
                          perhaps I may be allowed to remark that he and his monks probably do not
                          style themselves "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite".
                          I haven't looked recently, but there's nothing at all to inhibit
                          any Greek-Catholic Local Church, regardless of ethnic affiliation, from
                          distinguishing an unmarried priest with the honorific title of
                          Archimandrite. One would need to check the relevant directories to
                          determine which Churches currently have Archimandrites (I have the
                          impression, for example, that the Albanian or the Belarusian
                          Greek-Catholics, who have very few clergy, do not have any Archimandrites,
                          but I could easily be mistaken).
                          Father Archimandrite Robert Taft is a Greek-Catholic priest, having
                          been ordained by one of our bishops (I do know which one, but for the
                          moment I've forgotten) and serves daily, very faithfully, at our large
                          Church of Saint Antony the Great, adjacent to the Pontifical Oriental
                          Insitute in Rome, where he teaches Liturgy. A year or so ago the Synod of
                          Bishops of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church decreed that in view of his
                          outstanding contribution to the field of liturgical studies, and in view of
                          his strenuous efforts for the revival of the Greek-Catholic Theological
                          Academy in L'viv, Father should be rewarded with the rank of Archimandrite.
                          Since Jesuit priests are not usually permitted to accept honorific
                          distinctions, it was necessary to obtain the concurrence of Father Robert
                          Taft's superiors. With their agreement, Metropolitan Stephen of
                          Philadelphia (acting on behalf of the Holy Synod of Bishops) elevated
                          Father Robert Taft to the rank of Archimandrite, in Washington in the late
                          spring of 1998.
                          Whatever else about Greek-Catholic Archimandrites, we do not
                          automatically receive this dignity six months after ordination to the
                          priesthood, as Bishop Tikhon suggests is the custom in some places.
                          Not having a clergy list for the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
                          Russia, I am unable to answer the question about the number of
                          Archimandrites at Jordanville.
                          About twenty years ago, I think, Father Archimandrite Victor
                          Pospishil published a short study of the rank of Archimandrite, its
                          history, practice, and implications; that might a useful reference for
                          further reading. I could also suggest Father Cyril Korolevsky's study
                          *Uniatism*, originally published in Irenikon, and available in an English
                          translation as an appendix to my translation of Father Cyril's biography of
                          Metropolitan Andrew.

                          asking Bishop Tikhon's blessing, and offering a greeting from Ireland,

                          (Archimandrite) Serge Keleher






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                        • Bishop Tikhon
                          ... Thanks. I like feeling so *entitled!* However the surname Keleher [properly spelled ... I m acquainted with the Irishness of the Kelehers (sp?): I knew
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 1 3:21 PM
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                            At 04:22 PM 6/1/99 -0400, Archimandrite Serge Keleher (sp?) wrote:

                            > Bishop Tikhon is entitled to be surprised by whatever His Grace
                            >finds surprising.

                            Thanks. I like feeling so *entitled!*

                            However the surname "Keleher" [properly spelled
                            >O'Ceileachair, but that's a bit difficult for most people in the USA] is of
                            >purely Irish origin, coming originally from the younger brother of Brian
                            >Boroimhe ("Boru"), and found for many centuries in Kerry and West Cork, so
                            >it seems strange that anyone would be shocked to find that the holder of
                            >such a surname is serving in Ireland.

                            I'm acquainted with the Irishness of the Kelehers (sp?): I knew some in
                            suburban Detroit, growing up. I agree with Archimandrite Sergei Keleher
                            (sp?) that it does seem "strange that anyone would be shocked to find that
                            the holder of such a surname is serving in Ireland." Who would that shocked
                            person be? Did I miss another post?

                            As for me, I expressed surprise, a surprise that was not all that
                            interested really, certainly not interested enough to be characterized as
                            "shocked", a surprise that there might be an Uniate community in Ireland
                            and a surprise that any Irishman from America would go to Ireland to be an
                            Archimandrite where the Irish already have their own rites and
                            spirituality and the same Faith as Uniates. In other words, the Irish have
                            their Church and Rite, what in world would Uniatism do for them? I am aware
                            of Orthodox there, perhaps one should expect that wherever the Orthodox may
                            move, the Uniates will be close behind? At the time of my consecration to
                            be Bishop of San Francisco in 1987, I received a warm letter from a member
                            of the Orthodox community in Dublin, expressing the joy of the Orthodox
                            Irish that a Fitzgerald had become Bishop, "their own Bishop,' after a
                            manner of speaking.

                            Archimandrite Sergei Kelleher (sp?) said his name is "properly spelled
                            "O'Ceileachair." My, why ever would any Irishman drop the "O'?" Surely not
                            out any craven desire to "pass?" Most of the Irish I know, whether
                            lace-curtain or shanty, would rather bow down to the "bloody quaain" than
                            hide their Irishness. (By the way, I bet that "O'Ceileachair" is "a bit
                            difficult", not only for "most of the people in the USA", but for many
                            people in Ireland; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that
                            "Kelleher" (sp?) is used in Ireland as much as "O'Ceileachair," and that
                            the latter is more the result of research than of continued usage in the
                            Kelleher (sp?) tribe.) A Fitzgerald would have much more reason to drop his
                            "Fitz" than an O'Keleher (sp?) or MacMurray would have to drop their "O" or
                            their "Mac", since the "Fitz" is a sign of definitely (and illegitimately)
                            "tainted blood."

                            > Archimandrite Boniface of Mount Tabor Monastery in California is
                            >among those professors who have at various times attempted to educate me,
                            >and I remain ever grateful to him for that effort. Being his student,
                            >perhaps I may be allowed to remark that he and his monks probably do not
                            >style themselves "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite".

                            It's true, I didn't know (and I *still* don't know!) the way that
                            Archimandrite Boniface and his monks style themselves. Not knowing, I did
                            my best to provide an accurate and appropriate designation; since they are
                            Roman Catholics, that is giving allegiance to the Pope of Rome, and since
                            they, I understand, worship in, or rather, according to the Roman
                            understanding of the word "rite", *belong to* one of the Eastern Rites of
                            the Roman Catholic Church, to wit, the Ukrainian one, it seemed to me that
                            using the appellation: "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite" would be inoffensive
                            and accurate. If I have committed some kind of gaffe vis-a-vis Uniate
                            protocol, I regret it.
                            It would be rude not to express my appreciation for Archimandrite Sergei
                            Keleher's (sp?) revelations on the topic of the use of the title
                            Archimandrite some places in the Roman Catholic Church.

                            +B.T.


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                          • Carles, Trevor
                            I m sorry, but I have to say that all this seems to me to be way off topic. It all sounds a little bit Indiana-listish to me, & that is a great shame.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 1 4:00 PM
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                              I'm sorry, but I have to say that all this seems to me to be way off
                              topic. It all sounds a little bit Indiana-listish to me, & that is a
                              great shame. Forgive me.

                              Deacon James Carles
                              Fairfield/Sydney/Australia

                              >-----Original Message-----
                              >From: Bishop Tikhon [SMTP:vladyka@...]
                              >Sent: Wednesday, 2 June 1999 8:22
                              >To: ustav@egroups.com
                              >Subject: [ustav] Re: Archimandrites
                              >
                              >At 04:22 PM 6/1/99 -0400, Archimandrite Serge Keleher (sp?) wrote:
                              >
                              >> Bishop Tikhon is entitled to be surprised by whatever His Grace
                              >>finds surprising.
                              >
                              >Thanks. I like feeling so *entitled!*
                              >
                              >However the surname "Keleher" [properly spelled
                              >>O'Ceileachair, but that's a bit difficult for most people in the USA] is of
                              >>purely Irish origin, coming originally from the younger brother of Brian
                              >>Boroimhe ("Boru"), and found for many centuries in Kerry and West Cork, so
                              >>it seems strange that anyone would be shocked to find that the holder of
                              >>such a surname is serving in Ireland.
                              >
                              >I'm acquainted with the Irishness of the Kelehers (sp?): I knew some in
                              >suburban Detroit, growing up. I agree with Archimandrite Sergei Keleher
                              >(sp?) that it does seem "strange that anyone would be shocked to find that
                              >the holder of such a surname is serving in Ireland." Who would that shocked
                              >person be? Did I miss another post?
                              >
                              >As for me, I expressed surprise, a surprise that was not all that
                              >interested really, certainly not interested enough to be characterized as
                              >"shocked", a surprise that there might be an Uniate community in Ireland
                              >and a surprise that any Irishman from America would go to Ireland to be an
                              >Archimandrite where the Irish already have their own rites and
                              >spirituality and the same Faith as Uniates. In other words, the Irish have
                              >their Church and Rite, what in world would Uniatism do for them? I am aware
                              >of Orthodox there, perhaps one should expect that wherever the Orthodox may
                              >move, the Uniates will be close behind? At the time of my consecration to
                              >be Bishop of San Francisco in 1987, I received a warm letter from a member
                              >of the Orthodox community in Dublin, expressing the joy of the Orthodox
                              >Irish that a Fitzgerald had become Bishop, "their own Bishop,' after a
                              >manner of speaking.
                              >
                              >Archimandrite Sergei Kelleher (sp?) said his name is "properly spelled
                              >"O'Ceileachair." My, why ever would any Irishman drop the "O'?" Surely not
                              >out any craven desire to "pass?" Most of the Irish I know, whether
                              >lace-curtain or shanty, would rather bow down to the "bloody quaain" than
                              >hide their Irishness. (By the way, I bet that "O'Ceileachair" is "a bit
                              >difficult", not only for "most of the people in the USA", but for many
                              >people in Ireland; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that
                              >"Kelleher" (sp?) is used in Ireland as much as "O'Ceileachair," and that
                              >the latter is more the result of research than of continued usage in the
                              >Kelleher (sp?) tribe.) A Fitzgerald would have much more reason to drop his
                              >"Fitz" than an O'Keleher (sp?) or MacMurray would have to drop their "O" or
                              >their "Mac", since the "Fitz" is a sign of definitely (and illegitimately)
                              >"tainted blood."
                              >
                              >> Archimandrite Boniface of Mount Tabor Monastery in California is
                              >>among those professors who have at various times attempted to educate me,
                              >>and I remain ever grateful to him for that effort. Being his student,
                              >>perhaps I may be allowed to remark that he and his monks probably do not
                              >>style themselves "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite".
                              >
                              >It's true, I didn't know (and I *still* don't know!) the way that
                              >Archimandrite Boniface and his monks style themselves. Not knowing, I did
                              >my best to provide an accurate and appropriate designation; since they are
                              >Roman Catholics, that is giving allegiance to the Pope of Rome, and since
                              >they, I understand, worship in, or rather, according to the Roman
                              >understanding of the word "rite", *belong to* one of the Eastern Rites of
                              >the Roman Catholic Church, to wit, the Ukrainian one, it seemed to me that
                              >using the appellation: "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite" would be inoffensive
                              >and accurate. If I have committed some kind of gaffe vis-a-vis Uniate
                              >protocol, I regret it.
                              >It would be rude not to express my appreciation for Archimandrite Sergei
                              >Keleher's (sp?) revelations on the topic of the use of the title
                              >Archimandrite some places in the Roman Catholic Church.
                              >
                              >+B.T.
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
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                            • Fr Andrew Morbey
                              ... Still, this does not top the remarkable bestowing upon the famous Church of Scotland (= Presbyterian) theologian Thomas Torrance of the ecclesiastical
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 1 4:15 PM
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                                > I am aware, though, of an occasion about 30 years ago when the
                                > Orthodox Patriarch of Romania saw fit to make a Catholic Benedictine
                                > priest-monk an Archimandrite.

                                Still, this does not top the remarkable bestowing upon the famous Church of
                                Scotland (= Presbyterian) theologian Thomas Torrance of the ecclesiastical
                                dignity of Protopresbyter of the Throne of St Mark, along with the award of
                                the Cross of Aksum, by the late Pope and Patriarch Nicholas. A Presbyterian
                                Protopresbyter...

                                AA in O


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                              • Peter Genis
                                When I joined this list I did so to learn about the correct (according with the Typicon) practices of serving. Since I know very little about it I rely on
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 2 7:32 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  When I joined this list I did so to learn about the correct (according with the
                                  Typicon) practices of serving. Since I know very little about it I rely on
                                  what is posted here.

                                  Hence, if someone made a correction or comment I have assumed he/she is
                                  speaking based on the Typicon or Tradition. Needless to continue further and
                                  make fingerpointing, but I have no need at this moment to learn about the fine
                                  differences between Greek-Catholic/Ukranian-Catholic (or other more or less
                                  close to Orthodoxy churches) and Orthodox practices.

                                  I personally do not find Master Tikhon's comments out of tune in this list.

                                  I had no desire to offend anyone and if I did I humbly ask for their kind
                                  forgiveness.

                                  Peter Genis

                                  The Finnish Russian. The Russian Finn.

                                  --- "Carles, Trevor" <Trevor.Carles@...> wrote:
                                  > I'm sorry, but I have to say that all this seems to me to be way off
                                  > topic. It all sounds a little bit Indiana-listish to me, & that is a
                                  > great shame. Forgive me.
                                  >
                                  > Deacon James Carles
                                  > Fairfield/Sydney/Australia
                                  >
                                  > >-----Original Message-----
                                  > >From: Bishop Tikhon [SMTP:vladyka@...]
                                  > >Sent: Wednesday, 2 June 1999 8:22
                                  > >To: ustav@egroups.com
                                  > >Subject: [ustav] Re: Archimandrites
                                  > >
                                  > >At 04:22 PM 6/1/99 -0400, Archimandrite Serge Keleher (sp?) wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >> Bishop Tikhon is entitled to be surprised by whatever His Grace
                                  > >>finds surprising.
                                  > >
                                  > >Thanks. I like feeling so *entitled!*
                                  > >
                                  > >However the surname "Keleher" [properly spelled
                                  > >>O'Ceileachair, but that's a bit difficult for most people in the USA] is of
                                  > >>purely Irish origin, coming originally from the younger brother of Brian
                                  > >>Boroimhe ("Boru"), and found for many centuries in Kerry and West Cork, so
                                  > >>it seems strange that anyone would be shocked to find that the holder of
                                  > >>such a surname is serving in Ireland.
                                  > >
                                  > >I'm acquainted with the Irishness of the Kelehers (sp?): I knew some in
                                  > >suburban Detroit, growing up. I agree with Archimandrite Sergei Keleher
                                  > >(sp?) that it does seem "strange that anyone would be shocked to find that
                                  > >the holder of such a surname is serving in Ireland." Who would that shocked
                                  > >person be? Did I miss another post?
                                  > >
                                  > >As for me, I expressed surprise, a surprise that was not all that
                                  > >interested really, certainly not interested enough to be characterized as
                                  > >"shocked", a surprise that there might be an Uniate community in Ireland
                                  > >and a surprise that any Irishman from America would go to Ireland to be an
                                  > >Archimandrite where the Irish already have their own rites and
                                  > >spirituality and the same Faith as Uniates. In other words, the Irish have
                                  > >their Church and Rite, what in world would Uniatism do for them? I am aware
                                  > >of Orthodox there, perhaps one should expect that wherever the Orthodox may
                                  > >move, the Uniates will be close behind? At the time of my consecration to
                                  > >be Bishop of San Francisco in 1987, I received a warm letter from a member
                                  > >of the Orthodox community in Dublin, expressing the joy of the Orthodox
                                  > >Irish that a Fitzgerald had become Bishop, "their own Bishop,' after a
                                  > >manner of speaking.
                                  > >
                                  > >Archimandrite Sergei Kelleher (sp?) said his name is "properly spelled
                                  > >"O'Ceileachair." My, why ever would any Irishman drop the "O'?" Surely not
                                  > >out any craven desire to "pass?" Most of the Irish I know, whether
                                  > >lace-curtain or shanty, would rather bow down to the "bloody quaain" than
                                  > >hide their Irishness. (By the way, I bet that "O'Ceileachair" is "a bit
                                  > >difficult", not only for "most of the people in the USA", but for many
                                  > >people in Ireland; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that
                                  > >"Kelleher" (sp?) is used in Ireland as much as "O'Ceileachair," and that
                                  > >the latter is more the result of research than of continued usage in the
                                  > >Kelleher (sp?) tribe.) A Fitzgerald would have much more reason to drop his
                                  > >"Fitz" than an O'Keleher (sp?) or MacMurray would have to drop their "O" or
                                  > >their "Mac", since the "Fitz" is a sign of definitely (and illegitimately)
                                  > >"tainted blood."
                                  > >
                                  > >> Archimandrite Boniface of Mount Tabor Monastery in California is
                                  > >>among those professors who have at various times attempted to educate me,
                                  > >>and I remain ever grateful to him for that effort. Being his student,
                                  > >>perhaps I may be allowed to remark that he and his monks probably do not
                                  > >>style themselves "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite".
                                  > >
                                  > >It's true, I didn't know (and I *still* don't know!) the way that
                                  > >Archimandrite Boniface and his monks style themselves. Not knowing, I did
                                  > >my best to provide an accurate and appropriate designation; since they are
                                  > >Roman Catholics, that is giving allegiance to the Pope of Rome, and since
                                  > >they, I understand, worship in, or rather, according to the Roman
                                  > >understanding of the word "rite", *belong to* one of the Eastern Rites of
                                  > >the Roman Catholic Church, to wit, the Ukrainian one, it seemed to me that
                                  > >using the appellation: "Roman Catholic Ukrainian Rite" would be inoffensive
                                  > >and accurate. If I have committed some kind of gaffe vis-a-vis Uniate
                                  > >protocol, I regret it.
                                  > >It would be rude not to express my appreciation for Archimandrite Sergei
                                  > >Keleher's (sp?) revelations on the topic of the use of the title
                                  > >Archimandrite some places in the Roman Catholic Church.
                                  > >
                                  > >+B.T.
                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                                • Peter Genis
                                  When I joined this list I did so to learn about the correct (according with the Typicon) practices of serving. Since I know very little about it I rely on
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 2 7:32 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    When I joined this list I did so to learn about the correct (according with the
                                    Typicon) practices of serving. Since I know very little about it I rely on
                                    what is posted here.

                                    Hence, if someone made a correction or comment I have assumed he/she is
                                    speaking based on the Typicon or Tradition. Needless to continue further and
                                    make fingerpointing, but I have no need at this moment to learn about the fine
                                    differences between Greek-Catholic/Ukranian-Catholic (or other more or less
                                    close to Orthodoxy churches) and Orthodox practices.

                                    I personally do not find Master Tikhon's comments out of tune in this list.

                                    I had no desire to offend anyone and if I did I humbly ask for their kind
                                    forgiveness.

                                    Peter Genis

                                    The Finnish Russian. The Russian Finn.

                                    --- "Carles, Trevor" <Trevor.Carles@...> wrote:
                                    > I'm sorry, but I have to say that all this seems to me to be way off
                                    > topic. It all sounds a little bit Indiana-listish to me, & that is a
                                    > great shame. Forgive me.
                                    >
                                    > Deacon
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