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Re: [ustav] Abbreviated kneeling vespers?

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  • monkvasyl
    As is losing the Great Prokeimeon. Sent from my BlackBerry® by Boost Mobile ... From: Fr David Straut Sender: ustav@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 21, 2013
      As is losing the Great Prokeimeon.
      Sent from my BlackBerry® by Boost Mobile

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Fr David Straut <FrDavidStraut@...>
      Sender: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:31:11
      To: Ustav Yahoo Group<ustav@yahoogroups.com>
      Reply-To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ustav] Abbreviated kneeling vespers?

      We do not abbreviate the Vespers at our parish. Our practice has been to
      begin Liturgy a half hour early (9:00 rather than 9:30), distribute the
      antidoran with the reading of the Prayers of Thanksgiving, then we begin
      Vespers around 11:00. After Vespers, we have trapeza (coffee hour.)

      I've heard of parishes (not ROCOR ones, however) appending just the
      kneeling prayers without the Vespers to the end of the Liturgy, but this
      would be a great impoverishment. Besides the Vespers Service itself, which
      is beautiful, the Great Litany would be lost, with its special petitions.


      Archpriest David Straut



      On 21 June 2013 11:12, Philip Silouan Thompson <himself@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > On several parish calendars I see references to an "abbreviated" service
      > of Vespers to follow the Divine Liturgy for Pentecost. On Sunday morning,
      > having just served Matins and the Divine Liturgy for the feast, we wouldn't
      > mind slightly shortening the Vespers service that follows - but we're not
      > about to start pulling things out of the service on our own. Is there a
      > commonly practiced abbreviation for this service? Or is this not done? I'm
      > especially interested in practices here in the Western American Diocese of
      > ROCOR. Thanks in advance!
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Deacon Silouan
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------


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    • Aidanus
      We do not abbreviate the Vespers with Kneeling Prayers, which we begin immediately after the last person has kissed the cross at Liturgy s end. We begin the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 22, 2013
        We do not abbreviate the Vespers with Kneeling Prayers, which we begin immediately after the last person has kissed the cross at Liturgy's end. We begin the Liturgy at the usual time on Trinity. We are a somewhat small ROCOR parish.

        Fr. Aidan+
        Holy Protection Russian Orthodox Church, Austin, Texas
        www.orthodoxaustin.org


        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Fr David Straut <FrDavidStraut@...> wrote:
        >
        > We do not abbreviate the Vespers at our parish. Our practice has been to
        > begin Liturgy a half hour early (9:00 rather than 9:30), distribute the
        > antidoran with the reading of the Prayers of Thanksgiving, then we begin
        > Vespers around 11:00. After Vespers, we have trapeza (coffee hour.)
        >
        > I've heard of parishes (not ROCOR ones, however) appending just the
        > kneeling prayers without the Vespers to the end of the Liturgy, but this
        > would be a great impoverishment. Besides the Vespers Service itself, which
        > is beautiful, the Great Litany would be lost, with its special petitions.
        >
        >
        > Archpriest David Straut
        >
        >
        >
        > On 21 June 2013 11:12, Philip Silouan Thompson <himself@...>wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > On several parish calendars I see references to an "abbreviated" service
        > > of Vespers to follow the Divine Liturgy for Pentecost. On Sunday morning,
        > > having just served Matins and the Divine Liturgy for the feast, we wouldn't
        > > mind slightly shortening the Vespers service that follows - but we're not
        > > about to start pulling things out of the service on our own. Is there a
        > > commonly practiced abbreviation for this service? Or is this not done? I'm
        > > especially interested in practices here in the Western American Diocese of
        > > ROCOR. Thanks in advance!
        > >
        > > In Christ,
        > > Deacon Silouan
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Bradley Anderson
        I have always wished that this service would simply be served at a normal Vespers time rather than immediately after Liturgy. That would solve all of the
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 22, 2013
          I have always wished that this service would simply be served at a normal
          Vespers time rather than immediately after Liturgy. That would solve all
          of the pressures to abbreviate the service, and those who attend would be
          fed, rested, and (just maybe) more able to be attentive to this service.
          I note that the Pentecostarion prescribes 9th Hour to be read immediately
          after Liturgy, presumably so Kneeling Vespers can be a stand-alone service
          in the evening.

          It has always struck me as odd to go into a service with protracted
          kneeling immediately after communing. But since I have never personally
          been in a church on Pentecost that did anything other than append some form
          of the Kneeling Prayers at the end of Liturgy, it would be a gross
          understatement to say that my opinion is a minority one.

          Rdr. Edward (Brad) Anderson


          On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 1:30 AM, Aidanus <hieromonachusaidanus@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > We do not abbreviate the Vespers with Kneeling Prayers, which we begin
          > immediately after the last person has kissed the cross at Liturgy's end. We
          > begin the Liturgy at the usual time on Trinity. We are a somewhat small
          > ROCOR parish.
          >
          > Fr. Aidan+
          > Holy Protection Russian Orthodox Church, Austin, Texas
          > www.orthodoxaustin.org
          >
          > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Fr David Straut <FrDavidStraut@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > We do not abbreviate the Vespers at our parish. Our practice has been to
          > > begin Liturgy a half hour early (9:00 rather than 9:30), distribute the
          > > antidoran with the reading of the Prayers of Thanksgiving, then we begin
          > > Vespers around 11:00. After Vespers, we have trapeza (coffee hour.)
          > >
          > > I've heard of parishes (not ROCOR ones, however) appending just the
          > > kneeling prayers without the Vespers to the end of the Liturgy, but this
          > > would be a great impoverishment. Besides the Vespers Service itself,
          > which
          > > is beautiful, the Great Litany would be lost, with its special petitions.
          > >
          > >
          > > Archpriest David Straut
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On 21 June 2013 11:12, Philip Silouan Thompson <himself@...>wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On several parish calendars I see references to an "abbreviated"
          > service
          > > > of Vespers to follow the Divine Liturgy for Pentecost. On Sunday
          > morning,
          > > > having just served Matins and the Divine Liturgy for the feast, we
          > wouldn't
          > > > mind slightly shortening the Vespers service that follows - but we're
          > not
          > > > about to start pulling things out of the service on our own. Is there a
          > > > commonly practiced abbreviation for this service? Or is this not done?
          > I'm
          > > > especially interested in practices here in the Western American
          > Diocese of
          > > > ROCOR. Thanks in advance!
          > > >
          > > > In Christ,
          > > > Deacon Silouan
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • RM Prince
          *cough*servevigil*cough* One of the best Vespers of the year, on par with Forgiveness Vespers. Go ROCOR. Go unabbreviated! Have a wonderful Feast! Sdn.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 22, 2013
            *cough*servevigil*cough*


            One of the best Vespers of the year, on par with Forgiveness Vespers. Go ROCOR. Go unabbreviated!

            Have a wonderful Feast!

            Sdn. Martinian
            Choir Director, St. Martin the Merciful
            Corvallis, OR

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • polychrony
            I had mentioned earlier that we do the entire Sunday vespers of Pentecost service, but as evidenced by this year, my recollection was faulty. We did the entire
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 23, 2013
              I had mentioned earlier that we do the entire Sunday vespers of Pentecost service, but as evidenced by this year, my recollection was faulty.

              We did the entire service, with the exception that we omitted the non-Pentecost stichera for the Forerunner at Lord I Have Cried and the Aposticha. So we did all the service for the feast of Pentecost itself, but not the non-Pentecost stichera.

              Polychronios



              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "RM Prince" <riparianprince@...> wrote:
              >
              > *cough*servevigil*cough*
              >
              >
              > One of the best Vespers of the year, on par with Forgiveness Vespers. Go ROCOR. Go unabbreviated!
              >
              > Have a wonderful Feast!
              >
              > Sdn. Martinian
              > Choir Director, St. Martin the Merciful
              > Corvallis, OR
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • silouanthompson
              Thanks to all for the many profitable responses. This was our first year serving Vespers at the end of the Divine Liturgy for Pascha and Pentecost. In past
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 24, 2013
                Thanks to all for the many profitable responses. This was our first year serving Vespers at the end of the Divine Liturgy for Pascha and Pentecost. In past years, after these Liturgies, we've gone away to celebrate Pascha and Pentecost with a feast. Unsurprisingly, very few of our exhausted, overfed feasters tended to show up for an evening service of Vespers; there's an unfortunate perception that these Vespers are an optional extra.

                The result of our serving Agape and Kneeling Vespers at the end of the Liturgy is that many of our parishioners experienced these services for the first time.

                I do appreciate that Vespers at the end of the festal Liturgy is easier if we haven't also stood through Matins the same morning. But the decision on when to serve Matins is not mine :-)

                Thanks again for the spectrum of responses!

                In Christ,
                Deacon Silouan
              • S. Miller
                Do I understand you correctly that you serve Paschal Vespers in the wee hrs. of the morning at the end of the Paschal Liturgy? Has anyone ever come across
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 24, 2013
                  Do I understand you correctly that you serve Paschal Vespers in the wee hrs. of the morning at the end of the Paschal Liturgy? Has anyone ever come across this anywhere?

                  dnSergius

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "silouanthompson" <himself@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks to all for the many profitable responses. This was our first year serving Vespers at the end of the Divine Liturgy for Pascha and Pentecost. In past years, after these Liturgies, we've gone away to celebrate Pascha and Pentecost with a feast. Unsurprisingly, very few of our exhausted, overfed feasters tended to show up for an evening service of Vespers; there's an unfortunate perception that these Vespers are an optional extra.
                  >
                  > The result of our serving Agape and Kneeling Vespers at the end of the Liturgy is that many of our parishioners experienced these services for the first time.
                  >
                  > I do appreciate that Vespers at the end of the festal Liturgy is easier if we haven't also stood through Matins the same morning. But the decision on when to serve Matins is not mine :-)
                  >
                  > Thanks again for the spectrum of responses!
                  >
                  > In Christ,
                  > Deacon Silouan
                  >
                • Philip Silouan Thompson
                  Our custom has been to start the Paschal midnight office at 4am. (I m not arguing for it as a practice; it s just what we do.) Deacon Silouan
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 24, 2013
                    Our custom has been to start the Paschal midnight office at 4am. (I'm not arguing for it as a practice; it's just what we do.)

                    Deacon Silouan


                    On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:48 PM, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                    > Do I understand you correctly that you serve Paschal Vespers in the wee hrs. of the morning at the end of the Paschal Liturgy? Has anyone ever come across this anywhere?
                    >
                    > dnSergius
                    >
                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "silouanthompson" <himself@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Thanks to all for the many profitable responses. This was our first year serving Vespers at the end of the Divine Liturgy for Pascha and Pentecost. In past years, after these Liturgies, we've gone away to celebrate Pascha and Pentecost with a feast. Unsurprisingly, very few of our exhausted, overfed feasters tended to show up for an evening service of Vespers; there's an unfortunate perception that these Vespers are an optional extra.
                    >>
                    >> The result of our serving Agape and Kneeling Vespers at the end of the Liturgy is that many of our parishioners experienced these services for the first time.
                    >>
                    >> I do appreciate that Vespers at the end of the festal Liturgy is easier if we haven't also stood through Matins the same morning. But the decision on when to serve Matins is not mine :-)
                    >>
                    >> Thanks again for the spectrum of responses!
                    >>
                    >> In Christ,
                    >> Deacon Silouan
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
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                  • Jopi Harri
                    You then have the Vespers around 8 o clock? It must be handy as one doesn t need to go home between the Liturgy and the Vespers. (Here that wouldn t catch,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 24, 2013
                      You then have the Vespers around 8 o'clock?

                      It must be handy as one doesn't need to go home between the
                      Liturgy and the Vespers. (Here that wouldn't catch, since people
                      are eager to eat right after the Liturgy.)

                      - Jopi Harri

                      On 24.6.2013 22:56, Philip Silouan Thompson wrote:
                      > Our custom has been to start the Paschal midnight office at
                      > 4am. (I'm not arguing for it as a practice; it's just what we
                      > do.)
                      >
                      > Deacon Silouan
                      >
                      >
                      > On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:48 PM, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >> Do I understand you correctly that you serve Paschal Vespers
                      >> in the wee hrs. of the morning at the end of the Paschal
                      >> Liturgy? Has anyone ever come across this anywhere?
                      >>
                      >> dnSergius
                      >>
                      >> --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "silouanthompson"
                      >> <himself@...> wrote:
                      >>> Thanks to all for the many profitable responses. This was
                      >>> our first year serving Vespers at the end of the Divine
                      >>> Liturgy for Pascha and Pentecost. In past years, after
                      >>> these Liturgies, we've gone away to celebrate Pascha and
                      >>> Pentecost with a feast. Unsurprisingly, very few of our
                      >>> exhausted, overfed feasters tended to show up for an
                      >>> evening service of Vespers; there's an unfortunate
                      >>> perception that these Vespers are an optional extra.
                      >>>
                      >>> The result of our serving Agape and Kneeling Vespers at
                      >>> the end of the Liturgy is that many of our parishioners
                      >>> experienced these services for the first time.
                      >>>
                      >>> I do appreciate that Vespers at the end of the festal
                      >>> Liturgy is easier if we haven't also stood through Matins
                      >>> the same morning. But the decision on when to serve Matins
                      >>> is not mine :-)
                      >>>
                      >>> Thanks again for the spectrum of responses!
                      >>>
                      >>> In Christ, Deacon Silouan
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
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                    • S. Miller
                      At one time, and possibly still, the Ukrainian Uniates began the services around that time on Pascha. dnS
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 24, 2013
                        At one time, and possibly still, the Ukrainian Uniates began the services around that time on Pascha.

                        dnS

                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Philip Silouan Thompson <himself@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Our custom has been to start the Paschal midnight office at 4am. (I'm not arguing for it as a practice; it's just what we do.)
                        >
                        > Deacon Silouan
                        >
                        >
                        > On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:48 PM, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Do I understand you correctly that you serve Paschal Vespers in the wee hrs. of the morning at the end of the Paschal Liturgy? Has anyone ever come across this anywhere?
                        > >
                        > > dnSergius
                        > >
                        > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "silouanthompson" <himself@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> Thanks to all for the many profitable responses. This was our first year serving Vespers at the end of the Divine Liturgy for Pascha and Pentecost. In past years, after these Liturgies, we've gone away to celebrate Pascha and Pentecost with a feast. Unsurprisingly, very few of our exhausted, overfed feasters tended to show up for an evening service of Vespers; there's an unfortunate perception that these Vespers are an optional extra.
                        > >>
                        > >> The result of our serving Agape and Kneeling Vespers at the end of the Liturgy is that many of our parishioners experienced these services for the first time.
                        > >>
                        > >> I do appreciate that Vespers at the end of the festal Liturgy is easier if we haven't also stood through Matins the same morning. But the decision on when to serve Matins is not mine :-)
                        > >>
                        > >> Thanks again for the spectrum of responses!
                        > >>
                        > >> In Christ,
                        > >> Deacon Silouan
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > >
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                        > >
                        >
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