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Re: [ustav] Lazarus (Moore) Odes

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  • Philip Sokolov
    ... Dear Macrina, Unless they do come from HTM or another known source (can we help you to verify that?), I urge you to include them in your publication just
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2013
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      Macrina Lewis wrote:

      > I do not know if he translated the Odes. In the manuscript prepared by
      > Rdr. Michael Smith, the odes are included but come from elsewhere - I
      > think perhaps HTM, or maybe an earlier version of Fr. Lazarus'
      > translation from the 1960's. At any rate, they are in archaic language
      > whereas the Psalter we are publishing, the latest version he worked on
      > before his death, is in modern language; thus, we will be omitting the
      > Odes when we publish it for the sake of consistency.

      Dear Macrina,

      Unless they do come from HTM or another known source (can we help you to
      verify that?), I urge you to include them in your publication just as
      they are included in the manuscript. I think this would be the most
      satisfactory solution for all parties. Most of us are probably well
      accustomed by now to adapting to and from archaic and modern language,
      so it would be better to have them than not to have them. Putting them
      in an "Appendix" with a note to explain the inconsistency in style would
      not seem at all unusual, in my opinion.

      Just a thought.

      In Christ,
      Philip
    • Macrina Lewis
      Thanks for your opinion, Philip. I called Dominica and asked specifically about a Fr. Lazarus translation of the Canticles. She said he lost strength before
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2013
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        Thanks for your opinion, Philip.
        I called Dominica and asked specifically about a Fr. Lazarus translation of the Canticles. She said he lost strength before he was able to translate them, so there are no translations she is aware of. I suppose it's possible that some day as they go through all the boxes of his writings they may run across something he did in his India days, but to their knowledge, there is no translation of his for the Odes.

        My question regarding the inclusion of the archaic odes from HTM with the modern Fr. L Psalter is, why would you not just use the blue HTM Psalter for the Odes if you need them? Is there really an advantage to including them in the Fr. Lazarus Psalter?

        I also know that a group in England is shortly going to press with Fr. Lazarus' India translation of the Psalms from the 1960's, I believe, that is in archaic language. My hope is that once we both have our printings done, we can swap boxes of stock so that both versions are available both in the UK and the States. Perhaps they can include the Odes with the archaic language version. I'll find out.

        In Christ,
        Macrina
        anaphorapress.com



        On Jan 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Philip Sokolov wrote:

        > Macrina Lewis wrote:
        >
        >> I do not know if he translated the Odes. In the manuscript prepared by
        >> Rdr. Michael Smith, the odes are included but come from elsewhere - I
        >> think perhaps HTM, or maybe an earlier version of Fr. Lazarus'
        >> translation from the 1960's. At any rate, they are in archaic language
        >> whereas the Psalter we are publishing, the latest version he worked on
        >> before his death, is in modern language; thus, we will be omitting the
        >> Odes when we publish it for the sake of consistency.
        >
        > Dear Macrina,
        >
        > Unless they do come from HTM or another known source (can we help you to
        > verify that?), I urge you to include them in your publication just as
        > they are included in the manuscript. I think this would be the most
        > satisfactory solution for all parties. Most of us are probably well
        > accustomed by now to adapting to and from archaic and modern language,
        > so it would be better to have them than not to have them. Putting them
        > in an "Appendix" with a note to explain the inconsistency in style would
        > not seem at all unusual, in my opinion.
        >
        > Just a thought.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Philip
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
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      • Macrina Lewis
        P.S., Yes the Odes that were attached to the manuscript we re working on were just HTM. Getting permission to re-publish their translations is not always
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2013
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          P.S., Yes the Odes that were attached to the manuscript we're working on were just HTM. Getting permission to re-publish their translations is not always easy.

          An interesting tidbit that perhaps everyone doesn't know, is that the blue HTM Psalter is basically Fr. Lazarus' translation, although they made some changes to it. It's astounding how many common things we have that were originally translated into English by him: the Jordanville Prayer Book, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, the St. Seraphim biography and meeting with Motovilov (actually written by him), On the Jesus Prayer by Brianchininov, and many Akathists and Canons, among many other things including decades of journals and old radio broadcasts from India, typed on onionskin paper. This year is the 20th anniversary of his repose.

          In Christ,
          Macrina
          anaphorapress.com



          On Jan 1, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Macrina Lewis wrote:

          > Thanks for your opinion, Philip.
          > I called Dominica and asked specifically about a Fr. Lazarus translation of the Canticles. She said he lost strength before he was able to translate them, so there are no translations she is aware of. I suppose it's possible that some day as they go through all the boxes of his writings they may run across something he did in his India days, but to their knowledge, there is no translation of his for the Odes.
          >
          > My question regarding the inclusion of the archaic odes from HTM with the modern Fr. L Psalter is, why would you not just use the blue HTM Psalter for the Odes if you need them? Is there really an advantage to including them in the Fr. Lazarus Psalter?
          >
          > I also know that a group in England is shortly going to press with Fr. Lazarus' India translation of the Psalms from the 1960's, I believe, that is in archaic language. My hope is that once we both have our printings done, we can swap boxes of stock so that both versions are available both in the UK and the States. Perhaps they can include the Odes with the archaic language version. I'll find out.
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Macrina
          > anaphorapress.com
          >
          >
          >
          > On Jan 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Philip Sokolov wrote:
          >
          >> Macrina Lewis wrote:
          >>
          >>> I do not know if he translated the Odes. In the manuscript prepared by
          >>> Rdr. Michael Smith, the odes are included but come from elsewhere - I
          >>> think perhaps HTM, or maybe an earlier version of Fr. Lazarus'
          >>> translation from the 1960's. At any rate, they are in archaic language
          >>> whereas the Psalter we are publishing, the latest version he worked on
          >>> before his death, is in modern language; thus, we will be omitting the
          >>> Odes when we publish it for the sake of consistency.
          >>
          >> Dear Macrina,
          >>
          >> Unless they do come from HTM or another known source (can we help you to
          >> verify that?), I urge you to include them in your publication just as
          >> they are included in the manuscript. I think this would be the most
          >> satisfactory solution for all parties. Most of us are probably well
          >> accustomed by now to adapting to and from archaic and modern language,
          >> so it would be better to have them than not to have them. Putting them
          >> in an "Appendix" with a note to explain the inconsistency in style would
          >> not seem at all unusual, in my opinion.
          >>
          >> Just a thought.
          >>
          >> In Christ,
          >> Philip
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >>
          >> Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >> URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
          >>
          >> More ustav information and service texts:
          >> http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
          >> http://www.orthodox.net/services
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
          > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
          >
          > More ustav information and service texts:
          > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
          > http://www.orthodox.net/services
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Silouan Philip THompson
          ... If I m going to buy a liturgical Psalter to use at the cliros, then it s got to have the Biblical Odes in it. During Lent you need the Odes in order to
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2013
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            On 1/1/13 2:58 PM, Macrina Lewis wrote:
            > My question regarding the inclusion of the archaic odes from HTM with the modern Fr. L Psalter is, why would you not just use the blue HTM Psalter for the Odes if you need them? Is there really an advantage to including them in the Fr. Lazarus Psalter?

            If I'm going to buy a liturgical Psalter to use at the cliros, then it's
            got to have the Biblical Odes in it. During Lent you need the Odes in
            order to serve daily Matins; if my Psalter were missing the Odes, then
            I'd have to have a second Psalter containing the Odes. I'd rather juggle
            as few books as possible at the cliros.

            Suggestion: If there's not a text by Fr Lazarus, then at a minimum you
            might ask some of your editing team to work over Brenton's translation,
            which is in the public domain. With some editing for accuracy and
            beauty, it's at least a starting place.

            In Christ,
            Deacon Silouan
          • Macrina Lewis
            Thanks for the tip. I may look into that. You guys are all such a great resource! I guess it surprises me quite a bit that there are readers from
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2013
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              Thanks for the tip. I may look into that. You guys are all such a great resource!
              I guess it surprises me quite a bit that there are readers from archaic-language parishes that would use a modern translation of the Psalter liturgically at all. I would not be comfortable "translating" from a modern version in church at all myself. So in our parish, even though I'm publishing this, we will continue to use HTM for everything. At any rate, we will discuss again including the Odes.

              Does anyone know of a modern translation by someone Orthodox of the Odes? I'd feel much better maintaining that kind of consistency in our publication.

              Certainly the best option would be if our UK compadres will include the odes in their archaic version and I can include a modern translation in ours. I'll post and let everyone know when I hear from them.

              In Christ,
              Macrina
              anaphorapress.com



              On Jan 1, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Silouan Philip THompson wrote:

              > On 1/1/13 2:58 PM, Macrina Lewis wrote:
              >> My question regarding the inclusion of the archaic odes from HTM with the modern Fr. L Psalter is, why would you not just use the blue HTM Psalter for the Odes if you need them? Is there really an advantage to including them in the Fr. Lazarus Psalter?
              >
              > If I'm going to buy a liturgical Psalter to use at the cliros, then it's
              > got to have the Biblical Odes in it. During Lent you need the Odes in
              > order to serve daily Matins; if my Psalter were missing the Odes, then
              > I'd have to have a second Psalter containing the Odes. I'd rather juggle
              > as few books as possible at the cliros.
              >
              > Suggestion: If there's not a text by Fr Lazarus, then at a minimum you
              > might ask some of your editing team to work over Brenton's translation,
              > which is in the public domain. With some editing for accuracy and
              > beauty, it's at least a starting place.
              >
              > In Christ,
              > Deacon Silouan
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              >
              > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
              > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
              >
              > More ustav information and service texts:
              > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
              > http://www.orthodox.net/services
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Dale Dickerson
              I hope you publish all his translation efforts.   I think it is because I used the Authorized Version with the 1662 Book of Common Prayer  Morning and
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2013
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                I hope you publish all his translation efforts.
                 
                I think it is because I used the Authorized Version with the 1662 Book of Common Prayer  Morning and Evening Prayer for years. (That was before I became Orthodox.) Personally, I am not comfortable hearing current English converted to Elizabethan English on the fly during liturgy. Most times the person  is adding a few thee and thine, etc. However wording and word meanings can be different. It hits my ears like a fingernail on a blackboard. Given a choice, I want hear Greek or Church Slavonic and not pseudo Elizabethan English done on the fly. I avoid worshiping at a few churches because the pseudo English used is unsettling to my ears. 
                 
                Dale Dickerson

                  
                --- On Tue, 1/1/13, Macrina Lewis <macrina440@...> wrote:


                From: Macrina Lewis <macrina440@...>
                Subject: Re: [ustav] Lazarus (Moore) Odes
                To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 8:39 PM



                 



                Thanks for the tip. I may look into that. You guys are all such a great resource!
                I guess it surprises me quite a bit that there are readers from archaic-language parishes that would use a modern translation of the Psalter liturgically at all. I would not be comfortable "translating" from a modern version in church at all myself. So in our parish, even though I'm publishing this, we will continue to use HTM for everything. At any rate, we will discuss again including the Odes.

                Does anyone know of a modern translation by someone Orthodox of the Odes? I'd feel much better maintaining that kind of consistency in our publication.

                Certainly the best option would be if our UK compadres will include the odes in their archaic version and I can include a modern translation in ours. I'll post and let everyone know when I hear from them.

                In Christ,
                Macrina
                anaphorapress.com

                On Jan 1, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Silouan Philip THompson wrote:

                > On 1/1/13 2:58 PM, Macrina Lewis wrote:
                >> My question regarding the inclusion of the archaic odes from HTM with the modern Fr. L Psalter is, why would you not just use the blue HTM Psalter for the Odes if you need them? Is there really an advantage to including them in the Fr. Lazarus Psalter?
                >
                > If I'm going to buy a liturgical Psalter to use at the cliros, then it's
                > got to have the Biblical Odes in it. During Lent you need the Odes in
                > order to serve daily Matins; if my Psalter were missing the Odes, then
                > I'd have to have a second Psalter containing the Odes. I'd rather juggle
                > as few books as possible at the cliros.
                >
                > Suggestion: If there's not a text by Fr Lazarus, then at a minimum you
                > might ask some of your editing team to work over Brenton's translation,
                > which is in the public domain. With some editing for accuracy and
                > beauty, it's at least a starting place.
                >
                > In Christ,
                > Deacon Silouan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                >
                > More ustav information and service texts:
                > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James
                FYI The Russian Orthodox Psalter translated by David James and published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville also has the biblical odes and other material
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2013
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                  FYI The Russian Orthodox Psalter translated by David James and published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville also has the biblical odes and other material (as well as the prayers after each kathisma) It is based on the Coverdale translation that survived in the English Book of Common Prayer.

                  Rdr. James Morgan

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Silouan Philip THompson wrote:
                  >
                  > On 1/1/13 2:58 PM, Macrina Lewis wrote:
                  > > My question regarding the inclusion of the archaic odes from HTM with the modern Fr. L Psalter is, why would you not just use the blue HTM Psalter for the Odes if you need them? Is there really an advantage to including them in the Fr. Lazarus Psalter?
                  >
                  > If I'm going to buy a liturgical Psalter to use at the cliros, then it's
                  > got to have the Biblical Odes in it. During Lent you need the Odes in
                  > order to serve daily Matins; if my Psalter were missing the Odes, then
                  > I'd have to have a second Psalter containing the Odes. I'd rather juggle
                  > as few books as possible at the cliros.
                  >
                  > Suggestion: If there's not a text by Fr Lazarus, then at a minimum you
                  > might ask some of your editing team to work over Brenton's translation,
                  > which is in the public domain. With some editing for accuracy and
                  > beauty, it's at least a starting place.
                  >
                  > In Christ,
                  > Deacon Silouan
                  >
                • subdeaconmichaelastley
                  Thank you, all, for your characteristically helpful responses. I m so grateful for this place. M
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 11, 2013
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                    Thank you, all, for your characteristically helpful responses.

                    I'm so grateful for this place.

                    M

                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" wrote:
                    >
                    > Or his printer may have omitted them; apparently the printer was not inclined even to correct errors in typesetting. I don't know who has Fr Lazarus's papers, but it would be useful to see what he really intended.
                    >
                    > Stephen
                    >
                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "starina77" wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I think that Archimandrite Lazarus was OK with using the existing KJV translation for these, or else he would have supplied a translation in his Psalter. (I also know that there were some financial constrains on the printing budget, and he might have chosen to omit them to keep the costs down.)
                    > >
                    > > Nikita
                    > >
                    > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "subdeaconmichaelastley" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear fathers, sisters, brothers,
                    > > >
                    > > > A blessed feast of St Finnian of Clonard, St Herman of Alaska, or St Spyridon the Wonderworker, depending on where you are.
                    > > >
                    > > > I know that one of the criticisms of the psalter of Archimandrite Lazarus was that he did not include the odes of the canon. Does anybody know a place online or have access to his translations of them, if such exist? If so, please would be so good as to direct me to them? I'm particularly looking for the Song of the Three Holy Youths.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you.
                    > > >
                    > > > In Christ,
                    > > > Michael
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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