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RE: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

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  • James Silver
    Yes. It s most important to this discussion for us to be clear about just what word/words are being rendered into English as very most reverend --
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 13, 2012
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      Yes. It's most important to this discussion for us to be clear about just
      what word/words are being rendered into English as 'very most reverend' --
      undoubtedly a problematic expression for native speakers of English.

      Then we must wonder: Is there an antecedent in Greek? In other words (no
      pun intended), we need to know if we're being asked to consider englishing a
      word/phrase which exists only in Church Slavonic, or a word/phrase which is
      originally in Greek.

      If it's originally in Greek, we must translate into English from THAT, not
      from an intermediate translation into Church Slavonic.

      Yet if it's originally in Church Slavonic, we can work with that, but we
      must still know how and where in the services this word/phrase occurs and
      attest its usage both in CS and in Greek, and make a prudent choice for
      English.

      I mean: Consider _v61sokopreosvyashchenneyshiy_, which is rather difficult
      to relate to anything in Greek, as is _sevasmiotatos_ in CS. We don't
      always find convergence, although it's a great relief to us translators when
      we do.

      Monk James

      From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      stnicholasfletcher
      Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:55 PM
      To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

       
      FWIW, I never assumed "Very" was being used as an intensifier in "Very
      Most", but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions,
      "truly", "real", etc., as in, "the very truth". What is the underlying
      Slavonic? _pre_? Modifying a superlative?

      In ICXC,

      James Latimer

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
      >
      > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an
      intensifier.
      >
      > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true
      or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage
      is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most
      Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan
      English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan
      English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the
      title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
      >  
      > Dale
      >  
      >  
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
      > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
      > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
      >
      > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
      > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant
      English language"?
      >
      > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from
      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
      >
      > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er,
      ver·i·est.
      > adverb
      > 1.
      > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
      > 2.
      > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or
      oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
      > adjective
      > 3.
      > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
      > 4.
      > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
      > 5.
      > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
      > 6.
      > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
      > 7.
      > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery
      heart of the matter.
      >
      >
      > Have a nice day
      > Michel in Copenhagen
      >
      >
      >
      > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
      > >
      > > Dn. Sergius
      > >
      > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
      > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
      > > >
      > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
      > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
      > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
      > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
      > > >
      > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
      > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
      > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
      > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
      > > >
      > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
      > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
      > > > English forced down our throats.
      > > >
      > > > Cheers,
      > > > Anna V.
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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