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Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

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  • S. Miller
    Well done, Father David. dnSergius
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
      Well done, Father David.

      dnSergius

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Fr David Straut <FrDavidStraut@...> wrote:
      >
      > The English language is very flexible. It has borrowed many words from
      > Greek (and French and Latin too) with very little alteration of the words.
      > This is particularly true in medicine, philosophy, and ecclesiastical
      > English. Priest is a contraction of the Greek word presbyter; and presbyter
      > is a word in English in its own right. Bishop comes from the greek word
      > episcopos. Mystery is an anglicization of mysterion. We could go on and on.
      > The word Theotokos in English is not a newly coined word. It exists in
      > Oxford English Dictionary. I can't locate the reference at the moment, but
      > I remember reading that the word Theotokos has been used for centuries,
      > even in a medieval prayer in English.
      >
      > With all respect to my friend dear Father Ilya, the word 'Godbirther' may
      > be good German, but it is not good English. The word 'Godbearer' is
      > only slightly better, but it is very imprecise because the word 'bear' in
      > English has different meanings. We all know that St Ignatius of Antioch is
      > known as the God-bearer in a very different sense than the Mother of God
      > was. The only way to translate the term Theotokos into English with
      > precision is "the one who gave birth to God." And this is too cumbersome.
      > The Greek and the Slavonic have a single word and that is what works best
      > in prayers and liturgical texts. In 26 years of being a priest, I have not
      > had one parishioner ask me what 'Theotokos' meant. Everyone knows. And for
      > those who do not, a 10 second explanation is all that is necessary.
      >
      > p. David Straut
      >
      >
      >
      > On 11 December 2012 11:25, Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > In my opinion, the use of the Greek Theotokos for Birthgiver of God is a
      > > copout as far as the English language is concerned. If "Birthgiver of God"
      > > is too clumsy, Godbirther, may be better, and quite accurate, I believe.
      > >
      > > p. Ilya Gorsky
      > >
      > > _____
      > >
      > > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S.
      > > Miller
      > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:04 AM
      > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
      > >
      > >
      > > Father,
      > >
      > > I find no. 7 neither logical nor accurate. "Mother of God" translates a
      > > different expression than "Theotokos." Accuracy would require the rather
      > > clumsy expression "Birthgiver of God." In America we long since decided
      > > that
      > > the original Greek is the better usage. It appears to be a usage common to
      > > all the jurisdictions. Let's leave it alone.
      > >
      > > in XC,
      > > DnSergius Miller
      > >
      > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> , "Aidanus"
      > >
      > > <hieromonachusaidanus@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Greetings with the fast.
      > > >
      > > > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are
      > > preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to
      > > contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth
      > > Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
      > > >
      > > > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the
      > > current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch,
      > > etc.
      > > >
      > > > As I have been proofing their work, I have run across these questions:
      > > >
      > > > 1. In the Canon for Holy Communion, Russian sources give the first two
      > > refrains ("Create in me a clean heart" and "Cast me not away") as in the
      > > English sources. Then, where the English sources give "Glory to the
      > > Father... ages of ages, amen," the Russian sources give "Most Holy
      > > Theotokos, save us." Which is correct?
      > > >
      > > > 2. At the end of those Odes, there no katavasia? Or, in practice, are the
      > > Irmosi repeated as they would be at Vigil?
      > > >
      > > > 3. Toward the end of the continuous prayers (one prayer after another, as
      > > usually done in the morning before Liturgy), there is "Be awe-stricken, O
      > > mortal," followed by two troparia. Now, is there a "Glory to the Father...
      > > ages of ages, amen," between these two troparia? Because that's usually
      > > what
      > > one does with two troparia in the services. (Next would then come "O
      > > Master,
      > > Lover of mankind, O Lord Jesus Christ," and the final "Of Thy mystical
      > > Supper").
      > > >
      > > > 4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the services
      > > by some Synod decree or other?
      > > >
      > > > 5. In the Liturgy, in Slavonic, the priest's lines are introduced with
      > > "Ierei" at first, then at some point the word "Svyashchennik:" is used. Is
      > > there any real difference or reason for the times when the one term is
      > > used,
      > > as opposed to the other term? Could one simply put "Ierei" throughout?
      > > >
      > > > 6. I know that we are used to saying, "For this holy temple," but I also
      > > know "For this holy house" is more accurate. Would this be too shocking a
      > > shift for ROCOR use?
      > > >
      > > > 7. I really prefer the British ROCOR and Australian ROCOR usage, which
      > > never has "Theotokos" when "Mother of God" can be done instead. Is this too
      > > shocking a shift for an American ROCOR parish?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for any comments, help, pointers, or outraged denunciations.
      > > >
      > > > in Christ,
      > > >
      > > > Fr. Aidan+
      > > > sinner
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Fr. John Whiteford
      Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?   Presbyter John Whiteford St. Jonah Orthodox Church Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/ ROCOR
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
        Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?


         
        Presbyter John Whiteford
        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jsbaglien <jbaglien@...>
        To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        Cc:
        Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:21 PM
        Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

        Father Aidan, Jordanville is about to publish an updated bilingual Liturgy that reflects our current ROCOR usage, in Slavonic (Russian orthography) and English.

        You might give them a call to see when it is coming out.

        Priest James




        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings with the fast.
        >
        > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
        >
        > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
        >



        ------------------------------------


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      • Anna Voellmecke
        ... Very Most Reverend is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity of expression was
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
          At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:

          >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
          >services by some Synod decree or other?

          "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
          to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
          of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
          expression into English, and it just didn't work.

          This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
          mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
          that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
          even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.

          Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
          texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
          English forced down our throats.

          Cheers,
          Anna V.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • S. Miller
          Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA. Dn. Sergius
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
            Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.

            Dn. Sergius

            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
            >
            > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
            > >services by some Synod decree or other?
            >
            > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
            > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
            > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
            > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
            >
            > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
            > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
            > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
            > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
            >
            > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
            > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
            > English forced down our throats.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Anna V.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Michel Englert
            Is then my very best friend *not* English? Is it a monstrosity used by those who have not mastered the elegant English language ? But for those who want
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
              Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
              Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?

              But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very

              ver�y [ver-ee] Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete )ver�i�er, ver�i�est.
              adverb
              1.
              in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
              2.
              (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
              adjective
              3.
              precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
              4.
              mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
              5.
              sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
              6.
              actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
              7.
              being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.


              Have a nice day
              Michel in Copenhagen



              On 12 d�c. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

              > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
              >
              > Dn. Sergius
              >
              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
              > >
              > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
              > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
              > >
              > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
              > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
              > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
              > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
              > >
              > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
              > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
              > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
              > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
              > >
              > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
              > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
              > > English forced down our throats.
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > > Anna V.
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dale Dickerson
              My very best friend  is English, but very best uses very as an intensifier. Very Most Reverend uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
                "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.

                "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true or genuine from Latin vērax true, from vērus true. Modern English usage is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                 
                Dale
                 
                 

                ________________________________
                From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

                Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?

                But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very

                ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er, ver·i·est.
                adverb
                1.
                in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                2.
                (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                adjective
                3.
                precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                4.
                mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                5.
                sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                6.
                actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                7.
                being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.


                Have a nice day
                Michel in Copenhagen



                On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                >
                > Dn. Sergius
                >
                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                > >
                > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                > >
                > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                > >
                > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                > >
                > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                > > English forced down our throats.
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > > Anna V.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • S. Miller
                It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language. Dn. Sergius
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
                  It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language.

                  Dn. Sergius

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.
                  >
                  > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                  >  
                  > Dale
                  >  
                  >  
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                  > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                  >
                  > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                  > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?
                  >
                  > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                  >
                  > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er, ver·i·est.
                  > adverb
                  > 1.
                  > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                  > 2.
                  > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                  > adjective
                  > 3.
                  > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                  > 4.
                  > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                  > 5.
                  > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                  > 6.
                  > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                  > 7.
                  > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.
                  >
                  >
                  > Have a nice day
                  > Michel in Copenhagen
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                  > >
                  > > Dn. Sergius
                  > >
                  > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                  > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                  > > >
                  > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                  > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                  > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                  > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                  > > >
                  > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                  > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                  > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                  > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                  > > >
                  > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                  > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                  > > > English forced down our throats.
                  > > >
                  > > > Cheers,
                  > > > Anna V.
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
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                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Michel Englert
                  ... ... of the veriest English language... :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
                    > It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language.
                    ... of the veriest English language... :-)

                    On 12 d�c. 2012, at 13:57, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                    > It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language.
                    >
                    > Dn. Sergius
                    >
                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > "My very best friend"� is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.
                    > >
                    > > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic� meaning� of real or true or� genuine from Latin v�"rax true, from v�"rus true.� Modern English usage is� Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend.� In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend"� is correct� English. So during an Elizabethan English language� liturgy,� it is proper. However in another context,� the title� can be� misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                    > > �
                    > > Dale
                    > > �
                    > > �
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                    > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                    > >
                    > > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                    > > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?
                    > >
                    > > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                    > >
                    > > ver��y� [ver-ee]� Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete� )ver��i��er, ver��i��est.
                    > > adverb
                    > > 1.
                    > > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                    > > 2.
                    > > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                    > > adjective
                    > > 3.
                    > > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                    > > 4.
                    > > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                    > > 5.
                    > > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                    > > 6.
                    > > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                    > > 7.
                    > > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Have a nice day
                    > > Michel in Copenhagen
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 12 d��c. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dn. Sergius
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                    > > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                    > > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                    > > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                    > > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                    > > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                    > > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                    > > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                    > > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                    > > > > English forced down our throats.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Cheers,
                    > > > > Anna V.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jsbaglien
                    ... A bit of both, I believe. The text that I saw had the priestly prayers included, but also the antiphons, etc.. My expectation is that it will be sized
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?


                      A bit of both, I believe. The text that I saw had the priestly prayers included, but also the antiphons, etc.. My expectation is that it will be sized similarly to the current blue Liturgy books in English published by Jordanville, but that is only a guess. Call the Monastery print shop for the straight dope . . .

                      Priest James



                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Presbyter John Whiteford
                      > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                      > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                      > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                      > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                      > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                      > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                      > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: jsbaglien <jbaglien@...>
                      > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                      > Cc:
                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:21 PM
                      > Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                      >
                      > Father Aidan, Jordanville is about to publish an updated bilingual Liturgy that reflects our current ROCOR usage, in Slavonic (Russian orthography) and English.
                      >
                      > You might give them a call to see when it is coming out.
                      >
                      > Priest James
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Greetings with the fast.
                      > >
                      > > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
                      > >
                      > > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
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                    • Meg Lark
                      Could whoever get this information please post what they find out to the List? It sounds like it would be a great choir resource. Thanks! In Christ, Margaret
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
                        Could whoever get this information please post what they find out to the
                        List? It sounds like it would be a great choir resource. Thanks!

                        In Christ,
                        Margaret Lark, who is hoping to get the Choir Cues out by tomorrow

                        On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 3:09 PM, jsbaglien <jbaglien@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?
                        >
                        > A bit of both, I believe. The text that I saw had the priestly prayers
                        > included, but also the antiphons, etc.. My expectation is that it will be
                        > sized similarly to the current blue Liturgy books in English published by
                        > Jordanville, but that is only a guess. Call the Monastery print shop for
                        > the straight dope . . .
                        >
                        > Priest James
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • T. R. Valentine
                        ... Since I have access to the OED, I checked. The earliest usage of Theotokos the OED has is in 1874 by E(dward) B(ouverie) Pusey (of the Oxford Movement) in
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
                          On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 12:09 -0500, Fr David Straut wrote:
                          > The English language is very flexible. It has borrowed many words from
                          > Greek (and French and Latin too) with very little alteration of the words.
                          > This is particularly true in medicine, philosophy, and ecclesiastical
                          > English. Priest is a contraction of the Greek word presbyter; and presbyter
                          > is a word in English in its own right. Bishop comes from the greek word
                          > episcopos. Mystery is an anglicization of mysterion. We could go on and on.
                          > The word Theotokos in English is not a newly coined word. It exists in
                          > Oxford English Dictionary. I can't locate the reference at the moment, but
                          > I remember reading that the word Theotokos has been used for centuries,
                          > even in a medieval prayer in English.

                          Since I have access to the OED, I checked. The earliest usage of
                          Theotokos the OED has is in 1874 by E(dward) B(ouverie) Pusey (of the
                          Oxford Movement) in /Lenten Serm./ 206: 'By this the lowly Virgin became
                          Theotokos, "the Mother of God".'

                          FWIW, I prefer 'Theotokos'.


                          Thomas
                        • stnicholasfletcher
                          FWIW, I never assumed Very was being used as an intensifier in Very Most , but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions, truly ,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 13, 2012
                            FWIW, I never assumed "Very" was being used as an intensifier in "Very Most", but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions, "truly", "real", etc., as in, "the very truth". What is the underlying Slavonic? _pre_? Modifying a superlative?

                            In ICXC,

                            James Latimer

                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.
                            >
                            > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                            >  
                            > Dale
                            >  
                            >  
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                            > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                            >
                            > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                            > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?
                            >
                            > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                            >
                            > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er, ver·i·est.
                            > adverb
                            > 1.
                            > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                            > 2.
                            > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                            > adjective
                            > 3.
                            > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                            > 4.
                            > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                            > 5.
                            > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                            > 6.
                            > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                            > 7.
                            > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.
                            >
                            >
                            > Have a nice day
                            > Michel in Copenhagen
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                            > >
                            > > Dn. Sergius
                            > >
                            > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                            > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                            > > >
                            > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                            > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                            > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                            > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                            > > >
                            > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                            > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                            > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                            > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                            > > >
                            > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                            > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                            > > > English forced down our throats.
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers,
                            > > > Anna V.
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                            >
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                            >
                            >
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                            >
                          • James Silver
                            Yes. It s most important to this discussion for us to be clear about just what word/words are being rendered into English as very most reverend --
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 13, 2012
                              Yes. It's most important to this discussion for us to be clear about just
                              what word/words are being rendered into English as 'very most reverend' --
                              undoubtedly a problematic expression for native speakers of English.

                              Then we must wonder: Is there an antecedent in Greek? In other words (no
                              pun intended), we need to know if we're being asked to consider englishing a
                              word/phrase which exists only in Church Slavonic, or a word/phrase which is
                              originally in Greek.

                              If it's originally in Greek, we must translate into English from THAT, not
                              from an intermediate translation into Church Slavonic.

                              Yet if it's originally in Church Slavonic, we can work with that, but we
                              must still know how and where in the services this word/phrase occurs and
                              attest its usage both in CS and in Greek, and make a prudent choice for
                              English.

                              I mean: Consider _v61sokopreosvyashchenneyshiy_, which is rather difficult
                              to relate to anything in Greek, as is _sevasmiotatos_ in CS. We don't
                              always find convergence, although it's a great relief to us translators when
                              we do.

                              Monk James

                              From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              stnicholasfletcher
                              Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:55 PM
                              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

                               
                              FWIW, I never assumed "Very" was being used as an intensifier in "Very
                              Most", but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions,
                              "truly", "real", etc., as in, "the very truth". What is the underlying
                              Slavonic? _pre_? Modifying a superlative?

                              In ICXC,

                              James Latimer

                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an
                              intensifier.
                              >
                              > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true
                              or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage
                              is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most
                              Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan
                              English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan
                              English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the
                              title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                              >  
                              > Dale
                              >  
                              >  
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                              > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                              >
                              > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                              > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant
                              English language"?
                              >
                              > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from
                              http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                              >
                              > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er,
                              ver·i·est.
                              > adverb
                              > 1.
                              > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                              > 2.
                              > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or
                              oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                              > adjective
                              > 3.
                              > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                              > 4.
                              > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                              > 5.
                              > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                              > 6.
                              > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                              > 7.
                              > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery
                              heart of the matter.
                              >
                              >
                              > Have a nice day
                              > Michel in Copenhagen
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                              > >
                              > > Dn. Sergius
                              > >
                              > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                              > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                              > > >
                              > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                              > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                              > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                              > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                              > > >
                              > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                              > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                              > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                              > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                              > > >
                              > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                              > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                              > > > English forced down our throats.
                              > > >
                              > > > Cheers,
                              > > > Anna V.
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
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