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Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

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  • S. Miller
    Father, The katavasiae on Sundays and all days of Gr. Doxology rank and higher are done at Matins after each Ode and governed text-wise by Chap. 19 of the
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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      Father,

      The katavasiae on Sundays and all days of Gr. Doxology rank and higher are done at Matins after each Ode and governed text-wise by Chap. 19 of the Typikon.

      At Matins on weekdays of lower rank there are katavasiae after the 3rd, 6th, 8th, & 9th Odes. These are irmosi of the final canon in these Odes.

      There are sometimes, e.g., Great Week, katavasiae in Compline. There are not usually katavasiae of this type for votive canons.

      During the weekdays of the Triodion at Matins and for a few of the Great Feasts there are more complicated katavasiae rules.

      In XC,
      DnSergius

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
      >
      > In the previous message, I mentioned repeating the Irmosi at the end of the Odes as katavasiae "as at Vigil." This may be a bit misleading, since at Vigil there are specially assigned katavasiae. But in the absence of such, one does repeat the Irmosi to serve as the katavasiae, right?
      >
      > I really don't like how many of the English sources and the Russian sources which are Slavonic-in-Russian-characters capitalize "Kingdom," "Name," and other nouns which are not, strictly speaking, descriptions of God's Being. Certainly this is not done in Slavonic or Latin. Anyone know of anyone reason not to de-capitalize such words? I know this is a question of taste, more than substance. Still, I wonder what folks' thoughts are.
      >
      > Fr. Aidan+
      > sinner
      >
    • S. Miller
      Father, I find no. 7 neither logical nor accurate. Mother of God translates a different expression than Theotokos. Accuracy would require the rather
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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        Father,

        I find no. 7 neither logical nor accurate. "Mother of God" translates a different expression than "Theotokos." Accuracy would require the rather clumsy expression "Birthgiver of God." In America we long since decided that the original Greek is the better usage. It appears to be a usage common to all the jurisdictions. Let's leave it alone.

        in XC,
        DnSergius Miller

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings with the fast.
        >
        > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
        >
        > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
        >
        > As I have been proofing their work, I have run across these questions:
        >
        > 1. In the Canon for Holy Communion, Russian sources give the first two refrains ("Create in me a clean heart" and "Cast me not away") as in the English sources. Then, where the English sources give "Glory to the Father... ages of ages, amen," the Russian sources give "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." Which is correct?
        >
        > 2. At the end of those Odes, there no katavasia? Or, in practice, are the Irmosi repeated as they would be at Vigil?
        >
        > 3. Toward the end of the continuous prayers (one prayer after another, as usually done in the morning before Liturgy), there is "Be awe-stricken, O mortal," followed by two troparia. Now, is there a "Glory to the Father... ages of ages, amen," between these two troparia? Because that's usually what one does with two troparia in the services. (Next would then come "O Master, Lover of mankind, O Lord Jesus Christ," and the final "Of Thy mystical Supper").
        >
        > 4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the services by some Synod decree or other?
        >
        > 5. In the Liturgy, in Slavonic, the priest's lines are introduced with "Ierei" at first, then at some point the word "Svyashchennik:" is used. Is there any real difference or reason for the times when the one term is used, as opposed to the other term? Could one simply put "Ierei" throughout?
        >
        > 6. I know that we are used to saying, "For this holy temple," but I also know "For this holy house" is more accurate. Would this be too shocking a shift for ROCOR use?
        >
        > 7. I really prefer the British ROCOR and Australian ROCOR usage, which never has "Theotokos" when "Mother of God" can be done instead. Is this too shocking a shift for an American ROCOR parish?
        >
        > Thanks for any comments, help, pointers, or outraged denunciations.
        >
        > in Christ,
        >
        > Fr. Aidan+
        > sinner
        >
      • Elias G. Gorsky
        In my opinion, the use of the Greek Theotokos for Birthgiver of God is a copout as far as the English language is concerned. If Birthgiver of God is too
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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          In my opinion, the use of the Greek Theotokos for Birthgiver of God is a
          copout as far as the English language is concerned. If "Birthgiver of God"
          is too clumsy, Godbirther, may be better, and quite accurate, I believe.

          p. Ilya Gorsky

          _____

          From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S.
          Miller
          Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:04 AM
          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource





          Father,

          I find no. 7 neither logical nor accurate. "Mother of God" translates a
          different expression than "Theotokos." Accuracy would require the rather
          clumsy expression "Birthgiver of God." In America we long since decided that
          the original Greek is the better usage. It appears to be a usage common to
          all the jurisdictions. Let's leave it alone.

          in XC,
          DnSergius Miller

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> , "Aidanus"
          <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Greetings with the fast.
          >
          > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are
          preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to
          contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth
          Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
          >
          > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the
          current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
          >
          > As I have been proofing their work, I have run across these questions:
          >
          > 1. In the Canon for Holy Communion, Russian sources give the first two
          refrains ("Create in me a clean heart" and "Cast me not away") as in the
          English sources. Then, where the English sources give "Glory to the
          Father... ages of ages, amen," the Russian sources give "Most Holy
          Theotokos, save us." Which is correct?
          >
          > 2. At the end of those Odes, there no katavasia? Or, in practice, are the
          Irmosi repeated as they would be at Vigil?
          >
          > 3. Toward the end of the continuous prayers (one prayer after another, as
          usually done in the morning before Liturgy), there is "Be awe-stricken, O
          mortal," followed by two troparia. Now, is there a "Glory to the Father...
          ages of ages, amen," between these two troparia? Because that's usually what
          one does with two troparia in the services. (Next would then come "O Master,
          Lover of mankind, O Lord Jesus Christ," and the final "Of Thy mystical
          Supper").
          >
          > 4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the services
          by some Synod decree or other?
          >
          > 5. In the Liturgy, in Slavonic, the priest's lines are introduced with
          "Ierei" at first, then at some point the word "Svyashchennik:" is used. Is
          there any real difference or reason for the times when the one term is used,
          as opposed to the other term? Could one simply put "Ierei" throughout?
          >
          > 6. I know that we are used to saying, "For this holy temple," but I also
          know "For this holy house" is more accurate. Would this be too shocking a
          shift for ROCOR use?
          >
          > 7. I really prefer the British ROCOR and Australian ROCOR usage, which
          never has "Theotokos" when "Mother of God" can be done instead. Is this too
          shocking a shift for an American ROCOR parish?
          >
          > Thanks for any comments, help, pointers, or outraged denunciations.
          >
          > in Christ,
          >
          > Fr. Aidan+
          > sinner
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr David Straut
          The English language is very flexible. It has borrowed many words from Greek (and French and Latin too) with very little alteration of the words. This is
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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            The English language is very flexible. It has borrowed many words from
            Greek (and French and Latin too) with very little alteration of the words.
            This is particularly true in medicine, philosophy, and ecclesiastical
            English. Priest is a contraction of the Greek word presbyter; and presbyter
            is a word in English in its own right. Bishop comes from the greek word
            episcopos. Mystery is an anglicization of mysterion. We could go on and on.
            The word Theotokos in English is not a newly coined word. It exists in
            Oxford English Dictionary. I can't locate the reference at the moment, but
            I remember reading that the word Theotokos has been used for centuries,
            even in a medieval prayer in English.

            With all respect to my friend dear Father Ilya, the word 'Godbirther' may
            be good German, but it is not good English. The word 'Godbearer' is
            only slightly better, but it is very imprecise because the word 'bear' in
            English has different meanings. We all know that St Ignatius of Antioch is
            known as the God-bearer in a very different sense than the Mother of God
            was. The only way to translate the term Theotokos into English with
            precision is "the one who gave birth to God." And this is too cumbersome.
            The Greek and the Slavonic have a single word and that is what works best
            in prayers and liturgical texts. In 26 years of being a priest, I have not
            had one parishioner ask me what 'Theotokos' meant. Everyone knows. And for
            those who do not, a 10 second explanation is all that is necessary.

            p. David Straut



            On 11 December 2012 11:25, Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > In my opinion, the use of the Greek Theotokos for Birthgiver of God is a
            > copout as far as the English language is concerned. If "Birthgiver of God"
            > is too clumsy, Godbirther, may be better, and quite accurate, I believe.
            >
            > p. Ilya Gorsky
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S.
            > Miller
            > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:04 AM
            > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
            >
            >
            > Father,
            >
            > I find no. 7 neither logical nor accurate. "Mother of God" translates a
            > different expression than "Theotokos." Accuracy would require the rather
            > clumsy expression "Birthgiver of God." In America we long since decided
            > that
            > the original Greek is the better usage. It appears to be a usage common to
            > all the jurisdictions. Let's leave it alone.
            >
            > in XC,
            > DnSergius Miller
            >
            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> , "Aidanus"
            >
            > <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Greetings with the fast.
            > >
            > > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are
            > preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to
            > contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth
            > Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
            > >
            > > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the
            > current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch,
            > etc.
            > >
            > > As I have been proofing their work, I have run across these questions:
            > >
            > > 1. In the Canon for Holy Communion, Russian sources give the first two
            > refrains ("Create in me a clean heart" and "Cast me not away") as in the
            > English sources. Then, where the English sources give "Glory to the
            > Father... ages of ages, amen," the Russian sources give "Most Holy
            > Theotokos, save us." Which is correct?
            > >
            > > 2. At the end of those Odes, there no katavasia? Or, in practice, are the
            > Irmosi repeated as they would be at Vigil?
            > >
            > > 3. Toward the end of the continuous prayers (one prayer after another, as
            > usually done in the morning before Liturgy), there is "Be awe-stricken, O
            > mortal," followed by two troparia. Now, is there a "Glory to the Father...
            > ages of ages, amen," between these two troparia? Because that's usually
            > what
            > one does with two troparia in the services. (Next would then come "O
            > Master,
            > Lover of mankind, O Lord Jesus Christ," and the final "Of Thy mystical
            > Supper").
            > >
            > > 4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the services
            > by some Synod decree or other?
            > >
            > > 5. In the Liturgy, in Slavonic, the priest's lines are introduced with
            > "Ierei" at first, then at some point the word "Svyashchennik:" is used. Is
            > there any real difference or reason for the times when the one term is
            > used,
            > as opposed to the other term? Could one simply put "Ierei" throughout?
            > >
            > > 6. I know that we are used to saying, "For this holy temple," but I also
            > know "For this holy house" is more accurate. Would this be too shocking a
            > shift for ROCOR use?
            > >
            > > 7. I really prefer the British ROCOR and Australian ROCOR usage, which
            > never has "Theotokos" when "Mother of God" can be done instead. Is this too
            > shocking a shift for an American ROCOR parish?
            > >
            > > Thanks for any comments, help, pointers, or outraged denunciations.
            > >
            > > in Christ,
            > >
            > > Fr. Aidan+
            > > sinner
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Silouan Philip Thompson
            ... Birthgiver or Godbirther do make sense after a fashion - but they re not actual English words. I m reluctant to consider making up a new English word when
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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              Elias G. Gorsky wrote:
              > If "Birthgiver of God" is too clumsy, Godbirther, may be better, and quite accurate, I believe.

              Birthgiver or Godbirther do make sense after a fashion - but they're not
              actual English words. I'm reluctant to consider making up a new English
              word when an easily-pronounceable loan word is already in wide use.

              The word Theotokos has additional value as a Henway. (From the old
              comedy dialog: "I just got a Henway." "What's a Henway?" "About ten
              pounds!") A Henway prompts someone to ask the question you *want* them
              to ask.

              In conversations with first-time visitors, this word always give us the
              welcome opportinunity to say "It means Mary, and it indicates that the
              One she gave birth to is God. We love to honor her as Theotokos, because
              doing so lets us emphasize constantly that Christ is man and God. In
              fact when we honor any of the saints, as you heard during the Liturgy,
              scripture says we are glorifying *God* in His saints."

              There's a whole catechism on the Incarnation and the Church bound up in
              that one word :-)

              In Christ,
              Deacon Silouan
            • jsbaglien
              Father Aidan, Jordanville is about to publish an updated bilingual Liturgy that reflects our current ROCOR usage, in Slavonic (Russian orthography) and
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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                Father Aidan, Jordanville is about to publish an updated bilingual Liturgy that reflects our current ROCOR usage, in Slavonic (Russian orthography) and English.

                You might give them a call to see when it is coming out.

                Priest James




                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings with the fast.
                >
                > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
                >
                > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
                >
              • S. Miller
                Well done, Father David. dnSergius
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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                  Well done, Father David.

                  dnSergius

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Fr David Straut <FrDavidStraut@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The English language is very flexible. It has borrowed many words from
                  > Greek (and French and Latin too) with very little alteration of the words.
                  > This is particularly true in medicine, philosophy, and ecclesiastical
                  > English. Priest is a contraction of the Greek word presbyter; and presbyter
                  > is a word in English in its own right. Bishop comes from the greek word
                  > episcopos. Mystery is an anglicization of mysterion. We could go on and on.
                  > The word Theotokos in English is not a newly coined word. It exists in
                  > Oxford English Dictionary. I can't locate the reference at the moment, but
                  > I remember reading that the word Theotokos has been used for centuries,
                  > even in a medieval prayer in English.
                  >
                  > With all respect to my friend dear Father Ilya, the word 'Godbirther' may
                  > be good German, but it is not good English. The word 'Godbearer' is
                  > only slightly better, but it is very imprecise because the word 'bear' in
                  > English has different meanings. We all know that St Ignatius of Antioch is
                  > known as the God-bearer in a very different sense than the Mother of God
                  > was. The only way to translate the term Theotokos into English with
                  > precision is "the one who gave birth to God." And this is too cumbersome.
                  > The Greek and the Slavonic have a single word and that is what works best
                  > in prayers and liturgical texts. In 26 years of being a priest, I have not
                  > had one parishioner ask me what 'Theotokos' meant. Everyone knows. And for
                  > those who do not, a 10 second explanation is all that is necessary.
                  >
                  > p. David Straut
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 11 December 2012 11:25, Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > In my opinion, the use of the Greek Theotokos for Birthgiver of God is a
                  > > copout as far as the English language is concerned. If "Birthgiver of God"
                  > > is too clumsy, Godbirther, may be better, and quite accurate, I believe.
                  > >
                  > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                  > >
                  > > _____
                  > >
                  > > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S.
                  > > Miller
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:04 AM
                  > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Father,
                  > >
                  > > I find no. 7 neither logical nor accurate. "Mother of God" translates a
                  > > different expression than "Theotokos." Accuracy would require the rather
                  > > clumsy expression "Birthgiver of God." In America we long since decided
                  > > that
                  > > the original Greek is the better usage. It appears to be a usage common to
                  > > all the jurisdictions. Let's leave it alone.
                  > >
                  > > in XC,
                  > > DnSergius Miller
                  > >
                  > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> , "Aidanus"
                  > >
                  > > <hieromonachusaidanus@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Greetings with the fast.
                  > > >
                  > > > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are
                  > > preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to
                  > > contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth
                  > > Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
                  > > >
                  > > > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the
                  > > current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch,
                  > > etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > As I have been proofing their work, I have run across these questions:
                  > > >
                  > > > 1. In the Canon for Holy Communion, Russian sources give the first two
                  > > refrains ("Create in me a clean heart" and "Cast me not away") as in the
                  > > English sources. Then, where the English sources give "Glory to the
                  > > Father... ages of ages, amen," the Russian sources give "Most Holy
                  > > Theotokos, save us." Which is correct?
                  > > >
                  > > > 2. At the end of those Odes, there no katavasia? Or, in practice, are the
                  > > Irmosi repeated as they would be at Vigil?
                  > > >
                  > > > 3. Toward the end of the continuous prayers (one prayer after another, as
                  > > usually done in the morning before Liturgy), there is "Be awe-stricken, O
                  > > mortal," followed by two troparia. Now, is there a "Glory to the Father...
                  > > ages of ages, amen," between these two troparia? Because that's usually
                  > > what
                  > > one does with two troparia in the services. (Next would then come "O
                  > > Master,
                  > > Lover of mankind, O Lord Jesus Christ," and the final "Of Thy mystical
                  > > Supper").
                  > > >
                  > > > 4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the services
                  > > by some Synod decree or other?
                  > > >
                  > > > 5. In the Liturgy, in Slavonic, the priest's lines are introduced with
                  > > "Ierei" at first, then at some point the word "Svyashchennik:" is used. Is
                  > > there any real difference or reason for the times when the one term is
                  > > used,
                  > > as opposed to the other term? Could one simply put "Ierei" throughout?
                  > > >
                  > > > 6. I know that we are used to saying, "For this holy temple," but I also
                  > > know "For this holy house" is more accurate. Would this be too shocking a
                  > > shift for ROCOR use?
                  > > >
                  > > > 7. I really prefer the British ROCOR and Australian ROCOR usage, which
                  > > never has "Theotokos" when "Mother of God" can be done instead. Is this too
                  > > shocking a shift for an American ROCOR parish?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for any comments, help, pointers, or outraged denunciations.
                  > > >
                  > > > in Christ,
                  > > >
                  > > > Fr. Aidan+
                  > > > sinner
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Fr. John Whiteford
                  Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?   Presbyter John Whiteford St. Jonah Orthodox Church Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/ ROCOR
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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                    Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?


                     
                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: jsbaglien <jbaglien@...>
                    To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc:
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:21 PM
                    Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

                    Father Aidan, Jordanville is about to publish an updated bilingual Liturgy that reflects our current ROCOR usage, in Slavonic (Russian orthography) and English.

                    You might give them a call to see when it is coming out.

                    Priest James




                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings with the fast.
                    >
                    > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
                    >
                    > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
                    >



                    ------------------------------------


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                  • Anna Voellmecke
                    ... Very Most Reverend is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity of expression was
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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                      At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:

                      >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                      >services by some Synod decree or other?

                      "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                      to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                      of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                      expression into English, and it just didn't work.

                      This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                      mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                      that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                      even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.

                      Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                      texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                      English forced down our throats.

                      Cheers,
                      Anna V.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • S. Miller
                      Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA. Dn. Sergius
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 11, 2012
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                        Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.

                        Dn. Sergius

                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                        >
                        > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                        > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                        >
                        > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                        > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                        > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                        > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                        >
                        > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                        > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                        > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                        > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                        >
                        > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                        > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                        > English forced down our throats.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Anna V.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Michel Englert
                        Is then my very best friend *not* English? Is it a monstrosity used by those who have not mastered the elegant English language ? But for those who want
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                          Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                          Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?

                          But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very

                          ver�y [ver-ee] Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete )ver�i�er, ver�i�est.
                          adverb
                          1.
                          in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                          2.
                          (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                          adjective
                          3.
                          precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                          4.
                          mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                          5.
                          sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                          6.
                          actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                          7.
                          being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.


                          Have a nice day
                          Michel in Copenhagen



                          On 12 d�c. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                          > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                          >
                          > Dn. Sergius
                          >
                          > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                          > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                          > >
                          > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                          > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                          > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                          > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                          > >
                          > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                          > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                          > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                          > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                          > >
                          > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                          > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                          > > English forced down our throats.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers,
                          > > Anna V.
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dale Dickerson
                          My very best friend  is English, but very best uses very as an intensifier. Very Most Reverend uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                            "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.

                            "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true or genuine from Latin vērax true, from vērus true. Modern English usage is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                             
                            Dale
                             
                             

                            ________________________________
                            From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

                            Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                            Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?

                            But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very

                            ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er, ver·i·est.
                            adverb
                            1.
                            in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                            2.
                            (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                            adjective
                            3.
                            precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                            4.
                            mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                            5.
                            sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                            6.
                            actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                            7.
                            being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.


                            Have a nice day
                            Michel in Copenhagen



                            On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                            > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                            >
                            > Dn. Sergius
                            >
                            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                            > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                            > >
                            > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                            > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                            > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                            > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                            > >
                            > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                            > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                            > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                            > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                            > >
                            > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                            > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                            > > English forced down our throats.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers,
                            > > Anna V.
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            ------------------------------------


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                          • S. Miller
                            It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language. Dn. Sergius
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                              It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language.

                              Dn. Sergius

                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.
                              >
                              > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                              >  
                              > Dale
                              >  
                              >  
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                              > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                              >
                              > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                              > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?
                              >
                              > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                              >
                              > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er, ver·i·est.
                              > adverb
                              > 1.
                              > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                              > 2.
                              > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                              > adjective
                              > 3.
                              > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                              > 4.
                              > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                              > 5.
                              > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                              > 6.
                              > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                              > 7.
                              > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.
                              >
                              >
                              > Have a nice day
                              > Michel in Copenhagen
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                              > >
                              > > Dn. Sergius
                              > >
                              > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                              > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                              > > >
                              > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                              > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                              > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                              > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                              > > >
                              > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                              > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                              > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                              > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                              > > >
                              > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                              > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                              > > > English forced down our throats.
                              > > >
                              > > > Cheers,
                              > > > Anna V.
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
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                              >
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                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Michel Englert
                              ... ... of the veriest English language... :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                                > It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language.
                                ... of the veriest English language... :-)

                                On 12 d�c. 2012, at 13:57, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                                > It certainly is the very most unfortunate use of the language.
                                >
                                > Dn. Sergius
                                >
                                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > "My very best friend"� is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.
                                > >
                                > > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic� meaning� of real or true or� genuine from Latin v�"rax true, from v�"rus true.� Modern English usage is� Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend.� In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend"� is correct� English. So during an Elizabethan English language� liturgy,� it is proper. However in another context,� the title� can be� misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                                > > �
                                > > Dale
                                > > �
                                > > �
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                                > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                                > >
                                > > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                                > > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?
                                > >
                                > > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                                > >
                                > > ver��y� [ver-ee]� Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete� )ver��i��er, ver��i��est.
                                > > adverb
                                > > 1.
                                > > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                                > > 2.
                                > > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                                > > adjective
                                > > 3.
                                > > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                                > > 4.
                                > > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                                > > 5.
                                > > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                                > > 6.
                                > > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                                > > 7.
                                > > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Have a nice day
                                > > Michel in Copenhagen
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On 12 d��c. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                                > > >
                                > > > Dn. Sergius
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                                > > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                                > > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                                > > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                                > > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                                > > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                                > > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                                > > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                                > > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                                > > > > English forced down our throats.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Cheers,
                                > > > > Anna V.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                                > >
                                > > More ustav information and service texts:
                                > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
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                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • jsbaglien
                                ... A bit of both, I believe. The text that I saw had the priestly prayers included, but also the antiphons, etc.. My expectation is that it will be sized
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?


                                  A bit of both, I believe. The text that I saw had the priestly prayers included, but also the antiphons, etc.. My expectation is that it will be sized similarly to the current blue Liturgy books in English published by Jordanville, but that is only a guess. Call the Monastery print shop for the straight dope . . .

                                  Priest James



                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                  > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                  > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                  > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                  > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                  > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                  > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                                  > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: jsbaglien <jbaglien@...>
                                  > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Cc:
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:21 PM
                                  > Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                                  >
                                  > Father Aidan, Jordanville is about to publish an updated bilingual Liturgy that reflects our current ROCOR usage, in Slavonic (Russian orthography) and English.
                                  >
                                  > You might give them a call to see when it is coming out.
                                  >
                                  > Priest James
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Aidanus" <hieromonachusaidanus@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Greetings with the fast.
                                  > >
                                  > > Some folks at our parish (Holy Protection, Austin, Texas, ROCOR) are preparing a bilingual resource for worshippers. It is probably going to contain the most essential prayers before Communion, the Third and Sixth Hours, the Liturgy, and prayers of thanksgiving after Communion.
                                  > >
                                  > > We really need something like this that's bilingual and that reflects the current ROCOR wording for Litanies and commemoration of the Patriarch, etc.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Meg Lark
                                  Could whoever get this information please post what they find out to the List? It sounds like it would be a great choir resource. Thanks! In Christ, Margaret
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                                    Could whoever get this information please post what they find out to the
                                    List? It sounds like it would be a great choir resource. Thanks!

                                    In Christ,
                                    Margaret Lark, who is hoping to get the Choir Cues out by tomorrow

                                    On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 3:09 PM, jsbaglien <jbaglien@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Is this a sluzhebnik, or a book for the laity?
                                    >
                                    > A bit of both, I believe. The text that I saw had the priestly prayers
                                    > included, but also the antiphons, etc.. My expectation is that it will be
                                    > sized similarly to the current blue Liturgy books in English published by
                                    > Jordanville, but that is only a guess. Call the Monastery print shop for
                                    > the straight dope . . .
                                    >
                                    > Priest James
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • T. R. Valentine
                                    ... Since I have access to the OED, I checked. The earliest usage of Theotokos the OED has is in 1874 by E(dward) B(ouverie) Pusey (of the Oxford Movement) in
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 12, 2012
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                                      On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 12:09 -0500, Fr David Straut wrote:
                                      > The English language is very flexible. It has borrowed many words from
                                      > Greek (and French and Latin too) with very little alteration of the words.
                                      > This is particularly true in medicine, philosophy, and ecclesiastical
                                      > English. Priest is a contraction of the Greek word presbyter; and presbyter
                                      > is a word in English in its own right. Bishop comes from the greek word
                                      > episcopos. Mystery is an anglicization of mysterion. We could go on and on.
                                      > The word Theotokos in English is not a newly coined word. It exists in
                                      > Oxford English Dictionary. I can't locate the reference at the moment, but
                                      > I remember reading that the word Theotokos has been used for centuries,
                                      > even in a medieval prayer in English.

                                      Since I have access to the OED, I checked. The earliest usage of
                                      Theotokos the OED has is in 1874 by E(dward) B(ouverie) Pusey (of the
                                      Oxford Movement) in /Lenten Serm./ 206: 'By this the lowly Virgin became
                                      Theotokos, "the Mother of God".'

                                      FWIW, I prefer 'Theotokos'.


                                      Thomas
                                    • stnicholasfletcher
                                      FWIW, I never assumed Very was being used as an intensifier in Very Most , but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions, truly ,
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 13, 2012
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                                        FWIW, I never assumed "Very" was being used as an intensifier in "Very Most", but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions, "truly", "real", etc., as in, "the very truth". What is the underlying Slavonic? _pre_? Modifying a superlative?

                                        In ICXC,

                                        James Latimer

                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an intensifier.
                                        >
                                        > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                                        >  
                                        > Dale
                                        >  
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                                        > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                                        >
                                        > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                                        > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant English language"?
                                        >
                                        > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                                        >
                                        > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er, ver·i·est.
                                        > adverb
                                        > 1.
                                        > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                                        > 2.
                                        > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                                        > adjective
                                        > 3.
                                        > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                                        > 4.
                                        > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                                        > 5.
                                        > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                                        > 6.
                                        > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                                        > 7.
                                        > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery heart of the matter.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Have a nice day
                                        > Michel in Copenhagen
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                                        > >
                                        > > Dn. Sergius
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                                        > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                                        > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                                        > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                                        > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                                        > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                                        > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                                        > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                                        > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                                        > > > English forced down our throats.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Cheers,
                                        > > > Anna V.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
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                                      • James Silver
                                        Yes. It s most important to this discussion for us to be clear about just what word/words are being rendered into English as very most reverend --
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 13, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Yes. It's most important to this discussion for us to be clear about just
                                          what word/words are being rendered into English as 'very most reverend' --
                                          undoubtedly a problematic expression for native speakers of English.

                                          Then we must wonder: Is there an antecedent in Greek? In other words (no
                                          pun intended), we need to know if we're being asked to consider englishing a
                                          word/phrase which exists only in Church Slavonic, or a word/phrase which is
                                          originally in Greek.

                                          If it's originally in Greek, we must translate into English from THAT, not
                                          from an intermediate translation into Church Slavonic.

                                          Yet if it's originally in Church Slavonic, we can work with that, but we
                                          must still know how and where in the services this word/phrase occurs and
                                          attest its usage both in CS and in Greek, and make a prudent choice for
                                          English.

                                          I mean: Consider _v61sokopreosvyashchenneyshiy_, which is rather difficult
                                          to relate to anything in Greek, as is _sevasmiotatos_ in CS. We don't
                                          always find convergence, although it's a great relief to us translators when
                                          we do.

                                          Monk James

                                          From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          stnicholasfletcher
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:55 PM
                                          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource

                                           
                                          FWIW, I never assumed "Very" was being used as an intensifier in "Very
                                          Most", but rather I always heard it in the sense Dale Dickerson mentions,
                                          "truly", "real", etc., as in, "the very truth". What is the underlying
                                          Slavonic? _pre_? Modifying a superlative?

                                          In ICXC,

                                          James Latimer

                                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Dale Dickerson <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > "My very best friend" is English, but "very best" uses very as an
                                          intensifier.
                                          >
                                          > "Very Most Reverend" uses very in the archaic meaning of real or true
                                          or genuine from Latin vÄ"rax true, from vÄ"rus true. Modern English usage
                                          is  Truly Most Reverend or Really Most Reverend or Genuinely Most
                                          Reverend. In the context of speaking early modern English (Elizabethan
                                          English) "Very Most Reverend" is correct English. So during an Elizabethan
                                          English language liturgy, it is proper. However in another context, the
                                          title can be misunderstood as this discourse shows.
                                          >  
                                          > Dale
                                          >  
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: Michel Englert <michel@...>
                                          > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:33 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Questions on Bilingual Resource
                                          >
                                          > Is then "my very best friend" *not* English?
                                          > Is it a "monstrosity" used by those who "have not mastered the elegant
                                          English language"?
                                          >
                                          > But for those who want to master the elegant English language: from
                                          http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/very
                                          >
                                          > ver·y  [ver-ee]  Show IPA adverb, adjective ( Obsolete  )ver·i·er,
                                          ver·i·est.
                                          > adverb
                                          > 1.
                                          > in a high degree; extremely; exceedingly: A giant is very tall.
                                          > 2.
                                          > (used as an intensive emphasizing superlatives or stressingidentity or
                                          oppositeness): the very best thing; in the very same placeas before.
                                          > adjective
                                          > 3.
                                          > precise; particular: That is the very item we want.
                                          > 4.
                                          > mere: The very thought of it is distressing.
                                          > 5.
                                          > sheer; utter: He wept from the very joy of knowing he was safe.
                                          > 6.
                                          > actual: He was caught in the very act of stealing.
                                          > 7.
                                          > being such in the true or fullest sense of the term; extreme: thevery
                                          heart of the matter.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Have a nice day
                                          > Michel in Copenhagen
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On 12 déc. 2012, at 06:35, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Amen!! Anne! The same goes for the OCA.
                                          > >
                                          > > Dn. Sergius
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > At 12:05 AM 12/11/2012, you wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > >4. Isn't Abp. Alypy commemorated as "Very Most Reverend" in the
                                          > > > >services by some Synod decree or other?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "Very Most Reverend" is *not* English. You cannot use an intensifier
                                          > > > to modify a superlative. The translator who started this monstrosity
                                          > > > of expression was trying to force a literal Church Slavonic
                                          > > > expression into English, and it just didn't work.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This expression just makes ROCOR people look like they have not
                                          > > > mastered the elegant English language. Just use "Most Reverend" --
                                          > > > that's what my parish uses. There is no reason to copy bad English,
                                          > > > even when one respects the efforts of earlier translation attempts.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Please understand there is no standard ROCOR translation for any
                                          > > > texts. There are many of us who are relieved by this, not wanting bad
                                          > > > English forced down our throats.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Cheers,
                                          > > > Anna V.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
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                                          >
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