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Re: [ustav] Does Herman = Germanus

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  • Mary Lanser
    This woke me up... M. ... -- From Irenikon @ 40 ° 54 21.5 N, 77 ° 52 23.3 W Tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt. ~John 1:5 Every scribe instructed in the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 10, 2012
      This woke me up...

      M.

      On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 9:04 PM, James Silver <frjsilver@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Dear Friends --
      >
      > How this all happened is a mystery beyond my ken, but I can tell you a few
      > things.
      >
      > The name 'Germanus' NEVER was pronounced 'Herman' except in a southwest
      > russian (ukrainian) pronunciation. Many of the orthodox in North America
      > came from that area, and so were likely to pronounce 'G' as 'H'.
      >
      > But St German, as we can see from his writing, didn't come from that region
      > of Russia. He would have pronounced his monastic name starting with a hard
      > 'G'.
      >
      > In the original documents adduced and published during the canonization of
      > St German of Alaska, his name was always represented as 'German',
      > pronounced with a hard G, as in 'get'.
      >
      > The german (no pun) name 'Herman' means 'warrior', and is NOT an english -
      > language equivalent of the latin _germanus_, which means 'fraternal',
      > rendered in Greek as 'Germanos', the name of several patriarchs and saints.
      >
      > Our St 'Herman' of Alaska should be properly acknowledged as 'Germanus', a
      > name he would understand.
      >
      > Peace and blessings to all.
      >
      > Monk James
      >
      > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      >
      > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > gnimijean
      > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:18 PM
      > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [ustav] Does Herman = Germanus
      >
      >
      > I was recently asked how and why Germanus, Germaine (fr.), became Herman???
      > I notice in his lectures Met. Kallistos refers to St German.
      >
      > Does anyone know how and why the change from Germanus to Herman took place?
      >
      > AGinM
      >
      >
      >



      --
      From Irenikon
      @ 40 ° 54' 21.5" N, 77 ° 52' 23.3" W

      Tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt. ~John 1:5

      Every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is
      a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and
      old.~Matthew 13:52

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • starina77
      Dear Fr. James, The hard G sound is characteristic of the secular Russian language, and by extension is used in the modern (post-Nikonian) pronunciation of
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 11, 2012
        Dear Fr. James,

        The hard "G" sound is characteristic of the secular Russian language, and by extension is used in the modern (post-Nikonian) pronunciation of Church Slavonic. The letter "glagol" (gamma) was pronounced with a "rough H" sound almost EVERYWHERE in Russia up until the end of the 17th century. To the present day, the Russian Old Believers living in all parts of the world, whether in western, eastern, northern, southern or central Russia, or in the diaspora, ALL pronounce it as a rough H (or soft G) sound.

        As you are doubtlessly aware, we tend to be extremely conservative in making alterations in the way things were done in the Russian Church since before the cultural and ecclesiastical disruptions of the mid-1600s. Thus, it is entirely inconcievable that millions of a conservative religious minority based on preservation of tradition and spread all over the world (and separated into several non-interactive factions since the schism) have uninanimously decided to alter their pronunciation of the Church Slavonic language during the course of the past 350+ years.

        Thus, from a historical view, German with a "hard G" is modern secular pronunciation, and Herman with an "H" or "rough breathing" sound is the older Slavonic/ecclesiastical pronunciation. so, which pronunciation is correct? They BOTH are, depending upon secular or sacred context. It is also noteworthy that the "rough H" or "soft G" sound is much closer to the contemporary Greek pronunciation of the letter "gamma".

        Nikita

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
        >
        > The name 'Germanus' NEVER was pronounced 'Herman' except in a southwest
        > russian (ukrainian) pronunciation. Many of the orthodox in North America
        > came from that area, and so were likely to pronounce 'G' as 'H'.
        >
        > But St German, as we can see from his writing, didn't come from that region
        > of Russia. He would have pronounced his monastic name starting with a hard
        > 'G'.
      • James Silver
        Everything Nikita Simmons writes here is true, apart from his description of modern greek _gamma_, which presents a fairly clean hard /g/ sound except in
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 11, 2012
          Everything Nikita Simmons writes here is true, apart from his description of
          modern greek _gamma_, which presents a fairly clean hard /g/ sound except in
          colloquial pronunciation, where before vowels and diphthongs pronounced as
          _Eta_ (itacisms), it sounds more like the 'y' in 'yellow'.

          Now, acknowledging the shifts in pronunciation which accompanied and ensued
          changes in practice mandated by Patriarch Nikon, it's helpful to remember
          that Pat. Nikon started his revisions in 1656, and that St German lived
          until 1837 -- more than enough time to have absorbed any of the mandated
          adjustments.

          I recently became aware that there's a good possibility that StG's secular
          name was 'Gerasim Zyryanov'. This surname isn't russian, but is derived
          from the Zyrian people of far northwestern Siberia.

          There are two aspects of this which are of interest to us here. The first
          is that the saint was probably not influenced by southern russian
          pronunciations, and the second -- while we have no way of knowing how strong
          his ties to the Zyrians might have been -- is the fascinating possibility
          that he might have been familiar enough with their language so as not to
          need an interpreter while living and working in Alaska.

          Monk James

          From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          starina77
          Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 3:32 AM
          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ustav] Re: Does Herman = Germanus

           
          Dear Fr. James,

          The hard "G" sound is characteristic of the secular Russian language, and by
          extension is used in the modern (post-Nikonian) pronunciation of Church
          Slavonic. The letter "glagol" (gamma) was pronounced with a "rough H" sound
          almost EVERYWHERE in Russia up until the end of the 17th century. To the
          present day, the Russian Old Believers living in all parts of the world,
          whether in western, eastern, northern, southern or central Russia, or in the
          diaspora, ALL pronounce it as a rough H (or soft G) sound.

          As you are doubtlessly aware, we tend to be extremely conservative in making
          alterations in the way things were done in the Russian Church since before
          the cultural and ecclesiastical disruptions of the mid-1600s. Thus, it is
          entirely inconcievable that millions of a conservative religious minority
          based on preservation of tradition and spread all over the world (and
          separated into several non-interactive factions since the schism) have
          uninanimously decided to alter their pronunciation of the Church Slavonic
          language during the course of the past 350+ years.

          Thus, from a historical view, German with a "hard G" is modern secular
          pronunciation, and Herman with an "H" or "rough breathing" sound is the
          older Slavonic/ecclesiastical pronunciation. so, which pronunciation is
          correct? They BOTH are, depending upon secular or sacred context. It is also
          noteworthy that the "rough H" or "soft G" sound is much closer to the
          contemporary Greek pronunciation of the letter "gamma".

          Nikita

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
          >
          > The name 'Germanus' NEVER was pronounced 'Herman' except in a southwest
          > russian (ukrainian) pronunciation. Many of the orthodox in North America
          > came from that area, and so were likely to pronounce 'G' as 'H'.
          >
          > But St German, as we can see from his writing, didn't come from that
          region
          > of Russia. He would have pronounced his monastic name starting with a hard
          > 'G'.
        • stephen_r1937
          I suppose it depends on what Greeks you talk with, but in my experience it is more like the y in yellow before front vowels and more like Arabic ghain or
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 12, 2012
            I suppose it depends on what Greeks you talk with, but in my experience it is more like the "y" in "yellow" before front vowels and more like Arabic ghain or even like the "w" in "willow" before back vowels. And look how Turkish yoğurt becomes γιαούρτι--the ğ vanishes.

            Stephen

            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "starina77" <starina77@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Fr. James,
            >
            > The hard "G" sound is characteristic of the secular Russian language, and by extension is used in the modern (post-Nikonian) pronunciation of Church Slavonic. The letter "glagol" (gamma) was pronounced with a "rough H" sound almost EVERYWHERE in Russia up until the end of the 17th century. To the present day, the Russian Old Believers living in all parts of the world, whether in western, eastern, northern, southern or central Russia, or in the diaspora, ALL pronounce it as a rough H (or soft G) sound.
            >
            > As you are doubtlessly aware, we tend to be extremely conservative in making alterations in the way things were done in the Russian Church since before the cultural and ecclesiastical disruptions of the mid-1600s. Thus, it is entirely inconcievable that millions of a conservative religious minority based on preservation of tradition and spread all over the world (and separated into several non-interactive factions since the schism) have uninanimously decided to alter their pronunciation of the Church Slavonic language during the course of the past 350+ years.
            >
            > Thus, from a historical view, German with a "hard G" is modern secular pronunciation, and Herman with an "H" or "rough breathing" sound is the older Slavonic/ecclesiastical pronunciation. so, which pronunciation is correct? They BOTH are, depending upon secular or sacred context. It is also noteworthy that the "rough H" or "soft G" sound is much closer to the contemporary Greek pronunciation of the letter "gamma".
            >
            > Nikita
            >
            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@> wrote:
            > >
            > > The name 'Germanus' NEVER was pronounced 'Herman' except in a southwest
            > > russian (ukrainian) pronunciation. Many of the orthodox in North America
            > > came from that area, and so were likely to pronounce 'G' as 'H'.
            > >
            > > But St German, as we can see from his writing, didn't come from that region
            > > of Russia. He would have pronounced his monastic name starting with a hard
            > > 'G'.
            >
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