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RE: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity

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  • James Silver
    FWIW, in all my long and pretty much russian-flavored liturgical life, I never heard All of Creation Rejoices in the DL of St Basil either for Nativity or
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 28, 2011
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      FWIW, in all my long and pretty much russian-flavored liturgical life, I
      never heard 'All of Creation Rejoices' in the DL of St Basil either for
      Nativity or Theophany. It's always been the first hymn of the ninth ode of
      the festal kanon there.

      This is also true of the other festal days when we serve the Dl of StB; we
      sing 'All of Creation Rejoices' only on the five Sundays of the Great Fast.

      BTW: I especially like a serbian setting of this, based on the byzantine
      melody for the kontakion of the Annunciation tEI hypermakhOI_.

      I'd be very grateful if someone could send me that music.

      Monk James



      From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr.
      John Whiteford
      Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:56 PM
      To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity

       
      Just because the Liturgy of St. Basil's is prescribed, doesn't mean that the
      zadostoinik of the feast is replaced by "All Creation rejoiceth".

       
      Presbyter John Whiteford
      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into
      battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
      Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
      To: Ustav List <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc:
      Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 2:35 PM
      Subject: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity

      Dear All,

      A question came up over on the Typikon list (most of you are probably
      familiar with it...sigh) concerning the proper Zadostoinik for the
      Feast of the Nativity.  I'm not sure why -- possibly because on the
      New Calendar, the Feast fell on a Sunday -- but a Liturgy of St. Basil
      was served, and most people (as well as one of my sources) agreed that
      because of this, the Zadostoinik should be "In thee rejoiceth" rather
      than the hymn appropriate to the Feast.  Could someone tell me how
      this would work on the ROCOR Typicon?  Thanks.

      In Christ,
      Margaret Lark

      ------------------------------------

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    • Nikifor Franklin
      The Zadostoinik that s appointed for the Nativity by the Russian Typicon is the _second_ irmos of the Ninth ode of the canon, which begins in English
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 28, 2011
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        The Zadostoinik that's appointed for the Nativity by the Russian Typicon is the _second_ irmos of the Ninth ode of the canon, which begins in English translation "Better it is to prefer silence out of fear...." I believe this differs from Greek (and maybe other Local Church) practice, which appoints the first irmos "A strange and marvelous mystery do I behold...."

        The Typicon is quite vague about which Irmos is appointed on Theophany; however the musical tradition seems to have followed the first irmos.

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
        >
        > FWIW, in all my long and pretty much russian-flavored liturgical life, I
        > never heard 'All of Creation Rejoices' in the DL of St Basil either for
        > Nativity or Theophany. It's always been the first hymn of the ninth ode of
        > the festal kanon there.
        >
        > This is also true of the other festal days when we serve the Dl of StB; we
        > sing 'All of Creation Rejoices' only on the five Sundays of the Great Fast.
        >
        > BTW: I especially like a serbian setting of this, based on the byzantine
        > melody for the kontakion of the Annunciation tEI hypermakhOI_.
        >
        > I'd be very grateful if someone could send me that music.
        >
        > Monk James
        >
        >
        >
        > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr.
        > John Whiteford
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:56 PM
        > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity
        >
        >  
        > Just because the Liturgy of St. Basil's is prescribed, doesn't mean that the
        > zadostoinik of the feast is replaced by "All Creation rejoiceth".
        >
        >  
        > Presbyter John Whiteford
        > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
        > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into
        > battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
        > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
        > To: Ustav List <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
        > Cc:
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 2:35 PM
        > Subject: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity
        >
        > Dear All,
        >
        > A question came up over on the Typikon list (most of you are probably
        > familiar with it...sigh) concerning the proper Zadostoinik for the
        > Feast of the Nativity.  I'm not sure why -- possibly because on the
        > New Calendar, the Feast fell on a Sunday -- but a Liturgy of St. Basil
        > was served, and most people (as well as one of my sources) agreed that
        > because of this, the Zadostoinik should be "In thee rejoiceth" rather
        > than the hymn appropriate to the Feast.  Could someone tell me how
        > this would work on the ROCOR Typicon?  Thanks.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Margaret Lark
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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        > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
        >
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        > http://www.orthodox.net/services
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Meg Lark
        Great, thanks, everybody. That s what I thought, too, but the GOA s Liturgical Guidebook listed All Creation rejoiceth, and I caught so much flak for
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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          Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the GOA's
          Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I caught so much
          flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
          correction. Interestingly, the Antiochian website, from which I take the
          English translations of hymns, listed the Irmos, too.

          Just so that I know what to do whenever the Feast of the Nativity falls on
          a Sunday in the Church Calendar.

          In Christ,
          Margaret Lark


          On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Fr. John Whiteford <
          frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Just because the Liturgy of St. Basil's is prescribed, doesn't mean that
          > the zadostoinik of the feast is replaced by "All Creation rejoiceth".
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
          > To: Ustav List <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
          > Cc:
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 2:35 PM
          > Subject: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity
          >
          > Dear All,
          >
          > A question came up over on the Typikon list (most of you are probably
          > familiar with it...sigh) concerning the proper Zadostoinik for the
          > Feast of the Nativity. I'm not sure why -- possibly because on the
          > New Calendar, the Feast fell on a Sunday -- but a Liturgy of St. Basil
          > was served, and most people (as well as one of my sources) agreed that
          > because of this, the Zadostoinik should be "In thee rejoiceth" rather
          > than the hymn appropriate to the Feast. Could someone tell me how
          > this would work on the ROCOR Typicon? Thanks.
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Margaret Lark
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • S. Miller
          Meg, The same is true according to the St. Sabbas Typicon whenever Theophany and Annunciation fall on Sunday. Dn. Sergius Miller
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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            Meg,

            The same is true according to the St. Sabbas Typicon whenever Theophany and Annunciation fall on Sunday.

            Dn. Sergius Miller

            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
            >
            > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the GOA's
            > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I caught so much
            > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
            > correction. Interestingly, the Antiochian website, from which I take the
            > English translations of hymns, listed the Irmos, too.
            >
            > Just so that I know what to do whenever the Feast of the Nativity falls on
            > a Sunday in the Church Calendar.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Margaret Lark
            >
            >
            > On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Fr. John Whiteford <
            > frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Just because the Liturgy of St. Basil's is prescribed, doesn't mean that
            > > the zadostoinik of the feast is replaced by "All Creation rejoiceth".
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
            > > To: Ustav List <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Cc:
            > > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 2:35 PM
            > > Subject: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity
            > >
            > > Dear All,
            > >
            > > A question came up over on the Typikon list (most of you are probably
            > > familiar with it...sigh) concerning the proper Zadostoinik for the
            > > Feast of the Nativity. I'm not sure why -- possibly because on the
            > > New Calendar, the Feast fell on a Sunday -- but a Liturgy of St. Basil
            > > was served, and most people (as well as one of my sources) agreed that
            > > because of this, the Zadostoinik should be "In thee rejoiceth" rather
            > > than the hymn appropriate to the Feast. Could someone tell me how
            > > this would work on the ROCOR Typicon? Thanks.
            > >
            > > In Christ,
            > > Margaret Lark
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • S. Miller
            This correct but usage goes w/ A Strange.... Please note that a rubric at the end of the prescriptions on the Liturgy for Sept. 8 says that when there are two
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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              This correct but usage goes w/"A Strange....

              Please note that a rubric at the end of the prescriptions on the Liturgy for Sept. 8 says that when there are two canons for a great feast the Zadostoinik consists of the Refrain of the 1st canon w/the irmos of the 2nd canon. This is frequesntly not observed.

              Dn. Sergius Miller

              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikifor Franklin" <nikifor.franklin@...> wrote:
              >
              > The Zadostoinik that's appointed for the Nativity by the Russian Typicon is the _second_ irmos of the Ninth ode of the canon, which begins in English translation "Better it is to prefer silence out of fear...." I believe this differs from Greek (and maybe other Local Church) practice, which appoints the first irmos "A strange and marvelous mystery do I behold...."
              >
              > The Typicon is quite vague about which Irmos is appointed on Theophany; however the musical tradition seems to have followed the first irmos.
              >
              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@> wrote:
              > >
              > > FWIW, in all my long and pretty much russian-flavored liturgical life, I
              > > never heard 'All of Creation Rejoices' in the DL of St Basil either for
              > > Nativity or Theophany. It's always been the first hymn of the ninth ode of
              > > the festal kanon there.
              > >
              > > This is also true of the other festal days when we serve the Dl of StB; we
              > > sing 'All of Creation Rejoices' only on the five Sundays of the Great Fast.
              > >
              > > BTW: I especially like a serbian setting of this, based on the byzantine
              > > melody for the kontakion of the Annunciation tEI hypermakhOI_.
              > >
              > > I'd be very grateful if someone could send me that music.
              > >
              > > Monk James
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr.
              > > John Whiteford
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:56 PM
              > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity
              > >
              > >  
              > > Just because the Liturgy of St. Basil's is prescribed, doesn't mean that the
              > > zadostoinik of the feast is replaced by "All Creation rejoiceth".
              > >
              > >  
              > > Presbyter John Whiteford
              > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
              > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
              > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
              > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
              > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
              > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
              > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into
              > > battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
              > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@>
              > > To: Ustav List <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Cc:
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 2:35 PM
              > > Subject: [ustav] Question re: Feast of the Nativity
              > >
              > > Dear All,
              > >
              > > A question came up over on the Typikon list (most of you are probably
              > > familiar with it...sigh) concerning the proper Zadostoinik for the
              > > Feast of the Nativity.  I'm not sure why -- possibly because on the
              > > New Calendar, the Feast fell on a Sunday -- but a Liturgy of St. Basil
              > > was served, and most people (as well as one of my sources) agreed that
              > > because of this, the Zadostoinik should be "In thee rejoiceth" rather
              > > than the hymn appropriate to the Feast.  Could someone tell me how
              > > this would work on the ROCOR Typicon?  Thanks.
              > >
              > > In Christ,
              > > Margaret Lark
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
              > >
              > > More ustav information and service texts:
              > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
              > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
            • Jopi Harri
              ... Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis to dismiss the heirmos? -
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                On 29.12.2011 10:26, Meg Lark wrote:
                > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the GOA's
                > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I caught so much
                > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
                > correction.

                Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever
                has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis
                to dismiss the heirmos?

                - Jopi Harri
              • Meg Lark
                ... That s why I was asking. Originally I assumed it was a mistake in the Guidebook, but when I put the Choir Cues together with the Irmos as the Megalynarion
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                  On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  > On 29.12.2011 10:26, Meg Lark wrote:
                  > > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the GOA's
                  > > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I caught so
                  > much
                  > > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
                  > > correction.
                  >
                  > Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever
                  > has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis
                  > to dismiss the heirmos?
                  >

                  That's why I was asking. Originally I assumed it was a mistake in the
                  Guidebook, but when I put the Choir Cues together with the Irmos as the
                  Megalynarion (Zadostoinik), several people on the Typikon list jumped on me
                  for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses "In thee
                  rejoiceth." So I wasn't sure what the Sabbaite Typikon called for, and
                  thought I'd better check it out.

                  My thanks to Father Deacon Sergius for the elaboration regarding the first
                  Canon and second Canon. I'd better print that out and put it with my Order
                  of Divine Services, so I don't forget. Old age comes with a price...

                  Thanks again, everybody.

                  In Christ,
                  Meg


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • S. Miller
                  Meg, The usage of the 2nd. irmos is frequently disregarded in practice. DnS
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                    Meg,

                    The usage of the 2nd. irmos is frequently disregarded in practice.

                    DnS

                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > > On 29.12.2011 10:26, Meg Lark wrote:
                    > > > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the GOA's
                    > > > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I caught so
                    > > much
                    > > > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
                    > > > correction.
                    > >
                    > > Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever
                    > > has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis
                    > > to dismiss the heirmos?
                    > >
                    >
                    > That's why I was asking. Originally I assumed it was a mistake in the
                    > Guidebook, but when I put the Choir Cues together with the Irmos as the
                    > Megalynarion (Zadostoinik), several people on the Typikon list jumped on me
                    > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses "In thee
                    > rejoiceth." So I wasn't sure what the Sabbaite Typikon called for, and
                    > thought I'd better check it out.
                    >
                    > My thanks to Father Deacon Sergius for the elaboration regarding the first
                    > Canon and second Canon. I'd better print that out and put it with my Order
                    > of Divine Services, so I don't forget. Old age comes with a price...
                    >
                    > Thanks again, everybody.
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    > Meg
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Jopi Harri
                    ... Inclusive of Holy Thursday and Saturday??? - Jopi Harri
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                      On 29.12.2011 17:27, Meg Lark wrote:

                      > several people on the Typikon list jumped on me
                      > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses "In thee
                      > rejoiceth."

                      Inclusive of Holy Thursday and Saturday???

                      - Jopi Harri
                    • Meg Lark
                      ... That s what s in the Guidebook, for Holy Saturday, anyway. Seems to me that in my GOA days, I also chanted In thee rejoiceth on Holy Thursday (in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                        On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > On 29.12.2011 17:27, Meg Lark wrote:
                        >
                        > > several people on the Typikon list jumped on me
                        > > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses "In thee
                        > > rejoiceth."
                        >
                        > Inclusive of Holy Thursday and Saturday???
                        >

                        That's what's in the Guidebook, for Holy Saturday, anyway. Seems to me
                        that in my GOA days, I also chanted "In thee rejoiceth" on Holy Thursday
                        (in You-Who English, of course).

                        Meg


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • S. Miller
                        The Sabbatic Typikon the 9th irmos of the day on both these days. DnS
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                          The Sabbatic Typikon the 9th irmos of the day on both these days.

                          DnS

                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On 29.12.2011 17:27, Meg Lark wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > several people on the Typikon list jumped on me
                          > > > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses "In thee
                          > > > rejoiceth."
                          > >
                          > > Inclusive of Holy Thursday and Saturday???
                          > >
                          >
                          > That's what's in the Guidebook, for Holy Saturday, anyway. Seems to me
                          > that in my GOA days, I also chanted "In thee rejoiceth" on Holy Thursday
                          > (in You-Who English, of course).
                          >
                          > Meg
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Meg Lark
                          ... These are two days I usually do spend in GOA parishes, since they are so much closer to me than my ROCOR parish -- 6 or 10 miles, as opposed to 50 -- so I
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                            On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:07 AM, S. Miller <srbmillerr@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > The Sabbatic Typikon the 9th irmos of the day on both these days.
                            >
                            > DnS
                            >

                            These are two days I usually do spend in GOA parishes, since they are so
                            much closer to me than my ROCOR parish -- 6 or 10 miles, as opposed to 50
                            -- so I had no idea. Good to know.

                            Meg


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Nikifor Franklin
                            While chanting the 1st Irmos instead of the appointed 2nd may be a common practice, it is not universal. We chant the 2nd Irmos at our church. Furthermore, the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                              While chanting the 1st Irmos instead of the appointed 2nd may be a common practice, it is not universal. We chant the 2nd Irmos at our church.

                              Furthermore, the chant tradition of the Russian Church reflects the use of the 2nd Irmos. Kastalsky, Turchaninov, Trubachev, etc., all composed music for the Zadostoinik- the 1st Pripev and 2nd Irmos of the Canon.

                              Personally, in addition to the reason that it is prescribed by the Typicon, I prefer the 2nd Irmos for another reason: it is clearly addressed to the Theotokos, rather than the 1st, which appears to be addressed to Christ ("Him do we hymn and magnify.)" The Virgin is only mentioned in passing, along with the other elements of the "mystery." The 2nd Irmos is a very touching and heartfelt prayer to the Theotokos by the supreme hymnographer, St. John of Damascus.

                              dcn Nikifor


                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "S. Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Meg,
                              >
                              > The usage of the 2nd. irmos is frequently disregarded in practice.
                              >
                              > DnS
                              >
                              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > **
                              > > >
                              > > > On 29.12.2011 10:26, Meg Lark wrote:
                              > > > > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the GOA's
                              > > > > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I caught so
                              > > > much
                              > > > > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
                              > > > > correction.
                              > > >
                              > > > Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever
                              > > > has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis
                              > > > to dismiss the heirmos?
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > That's why I was asking. Originally I assumed it was a mistake in the
                              > > Guidebook, but when I put the Choir Cues together with the Irmos as the
                              > > Megalynarion (Zadostoinik), several people on the Typikon list jumped on me
                              > > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses "In thee
                              > > rejoiceth." So I wasn't sure what the Sabbaite Typikon called for, and
                              > > thought I'd better check it out.
                              > >
                              > > My thanks to Father Deacon Sergius for the elaboration regarding the first
                              > > Canon and second Canon. I'd better print that out and put it with my Order
                              > > of Divine Services, so I don't forget. Old age comes with a price...
                              > >
                              > > Thanks again, everybody.
                              > >
                              > > In Christ,
                              > > Meg
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                            • Molly Grabowski
                              It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would be better for them to keep silent. Molly ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                be better for them to keep silent.
                                Molly

                                On 12/29/2011 8:57 AM, Nikifor Franklin wrote:
                                >
                                > While chanting the 1st Irmos instead of the appointed 2nd may be a
                                > common practice, it is not universal. We chant the 2nd Irmos at our
                                > church.
                                >
                                > Furthermore, the chant tradition of the Russian Church reflects the
                                > use of the 2nd Irmos. Kastalsky, Turchaninov, Trubachev, etc., all
                                > composed music for the Zadostoinik- the 1st Pripev and 2nd Irmos of
                                > the Canon.
                                >
                                > Personally, in addition to the reason that it is prescribed by the
                                > Typicon, I prefer the 2nd Irmos for another reason: it is clearly
                                > addressed to the Theotokos, rather than the 1st, which appears to be
                                > addressed to Christ ("Him do we hymn and magnify.)" The Virgin is only
                                > mentioned in passing, along with the other elements of the "mystery."
                                > The 2nd Irmos is a very touching and heartfelt prayer to the Theotokos
                                > by the supreme hymnographer, St. John of Damascus.
                                >
                                > dcn Nikifor
                                >
                                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "S.
                                > Miller" <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Meg,
                                > >
                                > > The usage of the 2nd. irmos is frequently disregarded in practice.
                                > >
                                > > DnS
                                > >
                                > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Meg
                                > Lark <woolfolk3@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > **
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On 29.12.2011 10:26, Meg Lark wrote:
                                > > > > > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the
                                > GOA's
                                > > > > > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I
                                > caught so
                                > > > > much
                                > > > > > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
                                > > > > > correction.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever
                                > > > > has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis
                                > > > > to dismiss the heirmos?
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > That's why I was asking. Originally I assumed it was a mistake in the
                                > > > Guidebook, but when I put the Choir Cues together with the Irmos
                                > as the
                                > > > Megalynarion (Zadostoinik), several people on the Typikon list
                                > jumped on me
                                > > > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses
                                > "In thee
                                > > > rejoiceth." So I wasn't sure what the Sabbaite Typikon called for, and
                                > > > thought I'd better check it out.
                                > > >
                                > > > My thanks to Father Deacon Sergius for the elaboration regarding
                                > the first
                                > > > Canon and second Canon. I'd better print that out and put it with
                                > my Order
                                > > > of Divine Services, so I don't forget. Old age comes with a price...
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks again, everybody.
                                > > >
                                > > > In Christ,
                                > > > Meg
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • S. Miller
                                We ought all be so self aware. teehee! dns
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                  We ought all be so self aware. teehee!

                                  dns

                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                  > be better for them to keep silent.
                                  > Molly
                                  >
                                  > On 12/29/2011 8:57 AM, Nikifor Franklin wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > While chanting the 1st Irmos instead of the appointed 2nd may be a
                                  > > common practice, it is not universal. We chant the 2nd Irmos at our
                                  > > church.
                                  > >
                                  > > Furthermore, the chant tradition of the Russian Church reflects the
                                  > > use of the 2nd Irmos. Kastalsky, Turchaninov, Trubachev, etc., all
                                  > > composed music for the Zadostoinik- the 1st Pripev and 2nd Irmos of
                                  > > the Canon.
                                  > >
                                  > > Personally, in addition to the reason that it is prescribed by the
                                  > > Typicon, I prefer the 2nd Irmos for another reason: it is clearly
                                  > > addressed to the Theotokos, rather than the 1st, which appears to be
                                  > > addressed to Christ ("Him do we hymn and magnify.)" The Virgin is only
                                  > > mentioned in passing, along with the other elements of the "mystery."
                                  > > The 2nd Irmos is a very touching and heartfelt prayer to the Theotokos
                                  > > by the supreme hymnographer, St. John of Damascus.
                                  > >
                                  > > dcn Nikifor
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "S.
                                  > > Miller" <srbmillerr@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Meg,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The usage of the 2nd. irmos is frequently disregarded in practice.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > DnS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Meg
                                  > > Lark <woolfolk3@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > **
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > On 29.12.2011 10:26, Meg Lark wrote:
                                  > > > > > > Great, thanks, everybody. That's what I thought, too, but the
                                  > > GOA's
                                  > > > > > > Liturgical Guidebook listed "All Creation rejoiceth," and I
                                  > > caught so
                                  > > > > > much
                                  > > > > > > flak for replacing it with the Irmos that I ended up sending out a
                                  > > > > > > correction.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Is this a mistake in the Guidebook, or a misreading by whoever
                                  > > > > > has compiled it, or is there some explicit directive in Violakis
                                  > > > > > to dismiss the heirmos?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > That's why I was asking. Originally I assumed it was a mistake in the
                                  > > > > Guidebook, but when I put the Choir Cues together with the Irmos
                                  > > as the
                                  > > > > Megalynarion (Zadostoinik), several people on the Typikon list
                                  > > jumped on me
                                  > > > > for doing that, saying that a Liturgy of St. Basil "always" uses
                                  > > "In thee
                                  > > > > rejoiceth." So I wasn't sure what the Sabbaite Typikon called for, and
                                  > > > > thought I'd better check it out.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > My thanks to Father Deacon Sergius for the elaboration regarding
                                  > > the first
                                  > > > > Canon and second Canon. I'd better print that out and put it with
                                  > > my Order
                                  > > > > of Divine Services, so I don't forget. Old age comes with a price...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Thanks again, everybody.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In Christ,
                                  > > > > Meg
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Meg Lark
                                  ... Oh, LOLOL!!! Meg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                    On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...>wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                    > be better for them to keep silent.
                                    >

                                    Oh, LOLOL!!!

                                    Meg


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • James Silver
                                    For a long time, in OCA churches, I ve heard the heirmos of the second kanon ( I behold a strange, most glorious mystery ) sung for the _zadostoynik_ of the DL
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                      For a long time, in OCA churches, I've heard the heirmos of the second kanon
                                      ('I behold a strange, most glorious mystery') sung for the _zadostoynik_ of
                                      the DL of the Lord's Nativity in a romanian melody, which I like very much
                                      -- even though the translation needs to be corrected.

                                      Monk James

                                      From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Meg
                                      Lark
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:18 PM
                                      To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Question re: Feast of the Nativity

                                       
                                      On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski
                                      <mookitty@...>wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                      > be better for them to keep silent.
                                      >

                                      Oh, LOLOL!!!

                                      Meg

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • S. Miller
                                      That s the irmos of the first canon, Fr. James. dns
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                        That's the irmos of the first canon, Fr. James.

                                        dns

                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > For a long time, in OCA churches, I've heard the heirmos of the second kanon
                                        > ('I behold a strange, most glorious mystery') sung for the _zadostoynik_ of
                                        > the DL of the Lord's Nativity in a romanian melody, which I like very much
                                        > -- even though the translation needs to be corrected.
                                        >
                                        > Monk James
                                        >
                                        > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Meg
                                        > Lark
                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:18 PM
                                        > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Question re: Feast of the Nativity
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski
                                        > <mookitty@...>wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                        > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                        >
                                        > Meg
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • James Silver
                                        Thanks. It s all becoming a big blur just now.... From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S. Miller Sent: Thursday, December
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                          Thanks. It's all becoming a big blur just now....

                                          From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S.
                                          Miller
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:27 PM
                                          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [ustav] Re: Question re: Feast of the Nativity

                                           
                                          That's the irmos of the first canon, Fr. James.

                                          dns

                                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > For a long time, in OCA churches, I've heard the heirmos of the second
                                          kanon
                                          > ('I behold a strange, most glorious mystery') sung for the _zadostoynik_
                                          of
                                          > the DL of the Lord's Nativity in a romanian melody, which I like very much
                                          > -- even though the translation needs to be corrected.
                                          >
                                          > Monk James
                                          >
                                          > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          Meg
                                          > Lark
                                          > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:18 PM
                                          > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Question re: Feast of the Nativity
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski
                                          > <mookitty@...>wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                          > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                          >
                                          > Meg
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • James
                                          I think there is something in the hymnography about fishes being silent... Rdr. James
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                            I think there is something in the hymnography about fishes being silent...

                                            Rdr. James

                                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...>wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > **
                                            > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                            > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                            > >
                                            > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                            >
                                            > Meg
                                          • James
                                            Regardless of which canon (about which we all seem to be a bit confused), what would you correct? Rdr. james Now I m getting confused! Almost wrote Monk James
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                              Regardless of which canon (about which we all seem to be a bit confused), what would you correct?

                                              Rdr. james
                                              Now I'm getting confused! Almost wrote Monk James but I'm sure not him!

                                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > For a long time, in OCA churches, I've heard the heirmos of the second kanon
                                              > ('I behold a strange, most glorious mystery') sung for the _zadostoynik_ of
                                              > the DL of the Lord's Nativity in a romanian melody, which I like very much
                                              > -- even though the translation needs to be corrected.
                                              >
                                              > Monk James
                                              >
                                              > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Meg
                                              > Lark
                                              > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:18 PM
                                              > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Question re: Feast of the Nativity
                                              >
                                              > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski
                                              > <mookitty@...>wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                              > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                              >
                                              > Meg
                                            • Molly Grabowski
                                              That would be mute or dumb . ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                                That would be "mute" or "dumb".

                                                On 12/29/2011 6:55 PM, James wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I think there is something in the hymnography about fishes being silent...
                                                >
                                                > Rdr. James
                                                >
                                                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Meg
                                                > Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...>wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > **
                                                > > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                                > > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                                > > >
                                                > > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                                > >
                                                > > Meg
                                                >
                                                >



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • S. Miller
                                                The Akathist of the Theotokos. I think it s the philosophers become as mute as fish. dns
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                                  The Akathist of the Theotokos. I think it's the philosophers become as mute as fish.

                                                  dns

                                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I think there is something in the hymnography about fishes being silent...
                                                  >
                                                  > Rdr. James
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@>wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > **
                                                  > > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                                  > > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Meg
                                                  >
                                                • S. Miller
                                                  Refrain of the 1st canon, irmos of the second. dns
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 29, 2011
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                                                    Refrain of the 1st canon, irmos of the second.

                                                    dns

                                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Regardless of which canon (about which we all seem to be a bit confused), what would you correct?
                                                    >
                                                    > Rdr. james
                                                    > Now I'm getting confused! Almost wrote Monk James but I'm sure not him!
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Silver" <frjsilver@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > For a long time, in OCA churches, I've heard the heirmos of the second kanon
                                                    > > ('I behold a strange, most glorious mystery') sung for the _zadostoynik_ of
                                                    > > the DL of the Lord's Nativity in a romanian melody, which I like very much
                                                    > > -- even though the translation needs to be corrected.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Monk James
                                                    > >
                                                    > > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Meg
                                                    > > Lark
                                                    > > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:18 PM
                                                    > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Question re: Feast of the Nativity
                                                    > >
                                                    > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Molly Grabowski
                                                    > > <mookitty@>wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > It always made me uncomfortable to have the choir sing that it would
                                                    > > > be better for them to keep silent.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Oh, LOLOL!!!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Meg
                                                    >
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