Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Ustav Notes - a Proposal to all members

Expand Messages
  • mildert
    ... I sympathise with both points of view, being the father of a very active 2 year old. He likes to be in the Church but some people find him disruptive and
    Message 1 of 35 , Sep 3, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...> wrote:
      >
      > She knows her child better than you do whether she knows the canons or
      > not. I don't think it's fair or reasonable to use her an example of
      > someone who needs to know better - it seems there's plenty of that going
      > around.
      >
      > Offer to help her with her son and see if she comes earlier before you
      > judge that she just doesn't know how to behave.
      >
      > Philip Silouan Thompson wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Molly Grabowski wrote:
      > > > Depending on how old the kid is that you are bringing for
      > > > Communion and how many people are helping you - you may
      > > > need to come late so as not to disrupt the entire service.
      > >
      > > In this case, it's a seven-year-old boy; back in the Old Country his
      > > mother wasn't in the habit of receiving Communion herself, so she just
      > > brought her son at the end of the Liturgy every week so he could
      > > receive. I don't think she was consciously avoiding attending the
      > > Liturgy -- it just hadn't ever occurred to her to come for the whole
      > > thing.
      > >
      > > I wasn't posting to blame her - my point is that if we don't catechize,
      > > we can't expect folks to know what to do, and that includes Orthodox
      > > folks.
      > >
      > > - Silouan
      > >

      I sympathise with both points of view, being the father of a very active 2 year old. He likes to be in the Church but some people find him disruptive and ask Matushka to take him out (especially when we are visiting other Churches), this usually ends up with him being even noisier, and Matushka becoming more stressed... Catechesis is good but people also have to be ready for it, and ready to change themselves. We all have much to learn in terms of love and patience.

      In XC,

      Dn Philip
    • Meg Lark
      Thanks to both Reader Daniel and Matushka Anna for their responses, as well as to people who e-mailed me offlist. Reader Daniel s response addresses *exactly*
      Message 35 of 35 , Sep 9, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks to both Reader Daniel and Matushka Anna for their responses, as
        well as to people who e-mailed me offlist. Reader Daniel's response
        addresses *exactly* what my concern is, namely -- how much attention
        do you want to draw to yourself, anyway?! On the other hand, I don't
        want to go into a house of worship and not at least say hello to the
        residents.

        This question actually comes up for me more often in the context of
        going to confession prior to receiving Communion: Because of the
        distance from my ROCOR parish, Vigil is out of the question, so going
        to confession is pretty much limited to the reading of the Hours in
        the morning. I'm not the only one in this bind, though, so by the
        time confessions are over, there's barely time to skedaddle up to the
        choir loft for the beginning of Liturgy. At least now I have a sense
        of what's appropriate when.

        (BTW, just to ramp up the brain-dead quotient: Do you venerate ALL
        the icons, or only the main ones? We have icons all over the church,
        and even at Jordanville, I'm torn between "saying hello to everybody"
        and just getting out of the way.)

        TIA,
        Meg

        On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Daniel Olson <danielolson@...> wrote:

        > While movement around the church during services in order to venerate
        > icons, put up candles, etc. is a something commonly observed, it
        > should not be encouraged since it is contrary to good liturgical
        > order. Such movement has a two-fold negative effect. First, it
        > distracts the person who is moving about and performing his own
        > personal acts of piety from giving full attention to the Church's
        > communal prayers, hymns and readings that are taking place at that
        > time. Second, the person moving about the church is also distracting
        > others from paying attention to the service.
        >
        > The idea that some parts of the service are not important enough to
        > warrant our full attention or that it is permissible to distract
        > others during such times can only be considered an aberration.
        >
        > In considering this and other similar questions, it is useful to
        > determine first the Church's normative practice. In this case, the
        > normative practice is to arrive at church prior to the beginning of
        > the service. That way, one may perform any desired acts of personal
        > piety without distracting oneself or one's neighbor during the service.
        >
        > The second task is to provide guidance to those who for some good
        > reason are unable to follow the normative practice. In this case, the
        > best guidance is for such persons to go directly to their place as
        > quickly and unobtrusively as possible after entering the church.
        > Personal acts of piety may be performed as desired after the service
        > is over. This guidance not only benefits the individual himself and
        > others in the church, but it also contributes to the overall decorum
        > of the divine service.
        >
        > Daniel Olson
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.