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Re: [ustav] "Noble Joseph"

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  • Monk Vasyl Janick
    We only used the special melody during Great Lent.  On the Myrrhbearers Sunday, we used the regular Tone 2. The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl Roslindale, MA
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 1, 2009
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      We only used the "special melody" during Great Lent.  On the Myrrhbearers Sunday, we used the regular Tone 2.






      The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
      Roslindale, MA

      --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:


      From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
      Subject: [ustav] "Noble Joseph"
      To: "Ustav List" <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:19 PM






      A question concerning the Cherubic Hymn that uses this melody -- when
      may it actually be sung? At one point I was in a parish that used it
      almost every Sunday, and then was told in another parish that it was
      only appropriate to be sung during Great Lent. Is it appropriate for
      singing on Myrrhbearers Sunday, too? Or ever at all? Just wondering.

      In Christ,
      Meg Lark


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nikita Simmons
      The special melody Noble Joseph may be used whenever it is appointed in the service books. It is purely modern popular mythology which dictates that the
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 1, 2009
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        The special melody "Noble Joseph" may be used whenever it is appointed in the service books. It is purely modern popular mythology which dictates that the special melody may only be used during Holy Week. The sentimentality attached to the melody, all in the name of safeguarding the sacredness of the tune, is unfounded.

        The special melody "Noble Joseph" is an Automelon (Greek) or Samopodoben (Slavonic); in other words, it is a designated Model Melody which is supposed to be used for numerous other texts (Prosomoia/Podobny) throughout the year. If the use of the appointed melody is restricted to only one occurrence, then in effect it has been artificially made into a Unique Melody ("Idiomelon" in the Greek). "Noble Joseph" most certainly was not intended as an Idiomelon, but as an Automelon, according to the fathers and mothers of the Church who composed our hymns. A priest or choir director can choose to follow this unfounded restriction, but it is not called for in our service books.

        Nikita Simmons
        Woodburn, Oregon

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
        >
        > A question concerning the Cherubic Hymn that uses this melody -- when
        > may it actually be sung? At one point I was in a parish that used it
        > almost every Sunday, and then was told in another parish that it was
        > only appropriate to be sung during Great Lent. Is it appropriate for
        > singing on Myrrhbearers Sunday, too? Or ever at all? Just wondering.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Meg Lark
        >
      • Meg Lark
        ... [ml] Thanks, Nikita! Someone else told me it could only be sung during Lamentations, in which case, why have a Cheruvimskaya to that melody at all?! It
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 2, 2009
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          On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:18 PM, Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

          > The special melody "Noble Joseph" may be used whenever it is appointed in
          > the service books. It is purely modern popular mythology which dictates that
          > the special melody may only be used during Holy Week. The sentimentality
          > attached to the melody, all in the name of safeguarding the sacredness of
          > the tune, is unfounded.
          >
          > The special melody "Noble Joseph" is an Automelon (Greek) or Samopodoben
          > (Slavonic); in other words, it is a designated Model Melody which is
          > supposed to be used for numerous other texts (Prosomoia/Podobny) throughout
          > the year. If the use of the appointed melody is restricted to only one
          > occurrence, then in effect it has been artificially made into a Unique
          > Melody ("Idiomelon" in the Greek). "Noble Joseph" most certainly was not
          > intended as an Idiomelon, but as an Automelon, according to the fathers and
          > mothers of the Church who composed our hymns. A priest or choir director can
          > choose to follow this unfounded restriction, but it is not called for in our
          > service books.

          [ml] Thanks, Nikita! Someone else told me it could only be sung
          during Lamentations, in which case, why have a Cheruvimskaya to that
          melody at all?! It seems to me that it should be possible to use it,
          at the very least, during Great Lent.

          In Christ,
          Meg
        • stephen_r1937
          In the Irmologia of SW Rus , this melody occurs in the Octoechos, so it is certainly not limited to Holy Week. On the other hand, be prepared for static if you
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 2, 2009
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            In the Irmologia of SW Rus', this melody occurs in the Octoechos, so it is certainly not limited to Holy Week. On the other hand, be prepared for static if you use it outside of Holy Week. When it was borrowed by the Muscovite church from SW Rus', it was put into use as a seasonal tune and pretty much restricted to Holy Saturday. This is firmly ingrained in the minds of many pious Russians, who will react with horror if it is sung at any other time of year.

            Similarly, "Today the Virgin" is a much-used automelon in SW usage, but in Great-Russian practice is restricted to the Nativity season, and many will think it improper at any other time.

            Both melodies belong to the Bulgarian chant, and were unknown in Muscovy before the great expansion under Aleksei Mikhailovich.

            Stephen

            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:18 PM, Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:
            >
            > > The special melody "Noble Joseph" may be used whenever it is appointed in
            > > the service books. It is purely modern popular mythology which dictates that
            > > the special melody may only be used during Holy Week. The sentimentality
            > > attached to the melody, all in the name of safeguarding the sacredness of
            > > the tune, is unfounded.
            > >
            > > The special melody "Noble Joseph" is an Automelon (Greek) or Samopodoben
            > > (Slavonic); in other words, it is a designated Model Melody which is
            > > supposed to be used for numerous other texts (Prosomoia/Podobny) throughout
            > > the year. If the use of the appointed melody is restricted to only one
            > > occurrence, then in effect it has been artificially made into a Unique
            > > Melody ("Idiomelon" in the Greek). "Noble Joseph" most certainly was not
            > > intended as an Idiomelon, but as an Automelon, according to the fathers and
            > > mothers of the Church who composed our hymns. A priest or choir director can
            > > choose to follow this unfounded restriction, but it is not called for in our
            > > service books.
            >
            > [ml] Thanks, Nikita! Someone else told me it could only be sung
            > during Lamentations, in which case, why have a Cheruvimskaya to that
            > melody at all?! It seems to me that it should be possible to use it,
            > at the very least, during Great Lent.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Meg
            >
          • Meg Lark
            ... [ml] Always nice (and useful) to have these bits and pieces of history. I know that the Byzantine melody for Today the Virgin is used outside of
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 2, 2009
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              On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 9:35 AM, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:

              > In the Irmologia of SW Rus', this melody occurs in the Octoechos, so it is
              > certainly not limited to Holy Week. On the other hand, be prepared for
              > static if you use it outside of Holy Week. When it was borrowed by the
              > Muscovite church from SW Rus', it was put into use as a seasonal tune and
              > pretty much restricted to Holy Saturday. This is firmly ingrained in the
              > minds of many pious Russians, who will react with horror if it is sung at
              > any other time of year.
              >
              > Similarly, "Today the Virgin" is a much-used automelon in SW usage, but in
              > Great-Russian practice is restricted to the Nativity season, and many will
              > think it improper at any other time.
              >
              > Both melodies belong to the Bulgarian chant, and were unknown in Muscovy
              > before the great expansion under Aleksei Mikhailovich.

              [ml] Always nice (and useful) to have these bits and pieces of
              history. I know that the Byzantine melody for "Today the Virgin" is
              used outside of Nativity in the Greek practice, but mostly in the
              weeks leading up to the Triodion.

              Thanks,. Stephen, and thanks to all who have responded to this topic,
              both on and off list.

              Now, on the subject of Native Russian Polyphony....

              Seriously, I go around and around on this topic with various Greek
              priests, all of whom are convinced that polyphony only crept into the
              Russian use through the influence of the Uniates -- I'm not talking
              about fugal polyphony, but any kind of harmony at all, which they are
              all convinced is anathema, and I KNOW there's an earlier tradition of
              harmony in Russian usage, if anyone can help me track down sources to
              prove my point. My apologies to Nikita Simmons, who's probably
              breaking out in hives right about now... ;-)

              In Christ,
              Meg
            • Nikita Simmons
              ... Dear Meg, No, I m not breaking out in hives at all. The subject has interested me for years, although my interest has been in the native Russian polyphony
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 2, 2009
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                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
                >
                > Now, on the subject of Native Russian Polyphony....
                >
                > Seriously, I go around and around on this topic with various Greek
                > priests, all of whom are convinced that polyphony only crept into the
                > Russian use through the influence of the Uniates -- I'm not talking
                > about fugal polyphony, but any kind of harmony at all, which they are
                > all convinced is anathema, and I KNOW there's an earlier tradition of
                > harmony in Russian usage, if anyone can help me track down sources to
                > prove my point. My apologies to Nikita Simmons, who's probably
                > breaking out in hives right about now... ;-)
                >
                > In Christ,
                > Meg

                Dear Meg,

                No, I'm not breaking out in hives at all. The subject has interested me for years, although my interest has been in the native Russian polyphony as opposed to the imported western polyphony which almost completely eclipsed the native form. I'm not going to be able to point out resources for further study, but I can give you a brief introduction to the subject (just pulling this out of my head).

                The first manuscripts containing polyphonic chants in Russia appeared in the late 1500s, so anything prior to that is purely conjecture.There doesn't seem to be anything written on the subject of "mnogoglasie" (polyphony) before this time, and while we can't rule it out for the oral tradition of folk singing, we can find no evidence that polyphony had any place in church use before that time. ("Mnogo-golosie", which was the abusive practice of reading or singing different portions of the services simultaneously to shorten the length of the services, was debated at the Stoglav Council in Moscow in 1555, and has no connection with polyphony.)

                Certainly we know very well what the official position of the Church was in this matter, for there is an introductory chapter to the second volume of the pre-Nikonian Octoechos (Tones 5-8) full of instructional quotations from the Church Fathers (especially St. John Chrysostom) on the importance of singing in unity and unison singing as a means of achieving a communal unity of faith.

                Even with the existence of the very small number of polyphonic chant manuscripts, we cannot draw a firm conclusion that these were ever used (or permitted to be use) in public worship. It is entirely possible that these were intended solely as artistic creations similar to (for example) orchestrating a symphony based on a set of well-known themes, and intended as entertainment. There is no written evidence that these were ever used in public worship, or it would have touched off a considerable amount of outrage and debate (based on the teachings found in the Rudder and the previously-mentioned quotes from St. John Chrysostom), and since we have no such volumes of anti-polyphonic rhetoric, that in itself speaks rather loudly.

                Examining these manuscripts, we usually do not find a systematic attempt at arranging the entire repertoire of hymns, but only favorite selections. Furthermore, the "melodic line" (the original melody), which is being harmonized in the other parts, is typically not from the repertoire of standard Znamenny Chant, but from the lesser-known repertoires (raspevy) of the "Great Chant" (an expanded version of standard Znamenny Chant), Put' Chant, and Demestvenny Chant. Another repertoire called "Strochnoe penie" (line-singing or part-singing) seems to be not based on established melodies, but was a short-lived attempt at a new form of composition based on native Russian music theory.

                It is also interesting to note that there is very little attempt to harmonize the melodies using a musical theory that we are even remotely familiar with. The native Russian polyphony found in these chants is based on a folk music theory which is full of dissonance, unexpected parallel seconds and other grating intervals (including the final notes of cadences), and lengthy sections of unison where one would expect the use of harmony. Musical theorists have long been frustrated the elusive nature of this polyphony, and even the leading theorists are aware that they have not been able to come up with anything solid to work with, but are making a modern analytical guess. Many of the transcriptions into modern notation leave us puzzled and wondering if we "got it right". It's certainly an enigma, and there is very little in the way of written material to give us any clue that we are on the right path.

                The time period of these native Russian polyphonic manuscripts was from the late 1500s through the late 1700s. Western polyphony was brought into Russia following the annexation of Ukraine in the mid-1600s and subsequently introduced into Moscow by Tsar Aleksei and Patriarch Nikon establishing a Ukrainian presence in the imperial court and in the churches of the kremlin. This western (Polish Renaissance) polyphony was attractive to the nobility and wealthy patrons of Moscow's churches, and soon began to displace the traditional Byzantine-Russian Znamenny Chant. This new popular way of singing spread quickly from the leading churches of the kremlin to the rest of the city of Moscow, and then to the leading cities of Russian, and eventually into the countryside, with the remote monasteries (such as Valaam and Solovki) holding out the longest. The result of this influx of western polyphony was the almost complete disappearance of the native Russian polyphony (with its more dissonant intervals) in favor of the more pleasing sounds of the new music. These few odd manuscripts of native polyphony were deposited for safekeeping in Russia's state libraries and university collections, and were mostly forgotten until recent times.

                Speaking from a personal preference, I find the few readily accessible examples of this type of polyphony to be very challenging to my modern ears, even as a musicologist and a specialist in Znamenny Chant. The music is fascinating, but it doesn't provide much of a spiritual "uplifting", nor is it even easy to listen to for entertainment purposes. If one is going to focus on early polyphony in the Orthodox Church, I strongly encourage the study of traditional Georgian Chant, which possibly dates back to the 10th century, and is a field of study virtually begging for more scholars to unlock its secrets and share its mystique.

                Nikita
              • Jopi Harri
                ... Just a few remarks. There are mentions of performing chant in some sort of polyphony in the chinovnik of Novgorod St. Sophia from the 1540s. ... The
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 2, 2009
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                  On 2.4.2009 20:43, Nikita Simmons wrote:
                  > The first manuscripts containing polyphonic chants in Russia
                  > appeared in the late 1500s, so anything prior to that is
                  > purely conjecture.

                  Just a few remarks.

                  There are mentions of performing chant in some sort of polyphony
                  in the chinovnik of Novgorod St. Sophia from the 1540s.

                  > Certainly we know very well what the official position of the
                  > Church was in this matter, for there is an introductory
                  > chapter to the second volume of the pre-Nikonian Octoechos
                  > (Tones 5-8) full of instructional quotations from the Church
                  > Fathers (especially St. John Chrysostom) on the importance of
                  > singing in unity and unison singing as a means of achieving a
                  > communal unity of faith.

                  The introduction can be interpreted as well, or more likely, to
                  condemn the simultaneous conduct of divine services and other
                  kinds of disorderly manners, than be concerned about a sort or
                  another of polyphonic singing.

                  > Even with the existence of the very small number of polyphonic
                  > chant manuscripts, we cannot draw a firm conclusion that
                  > these were ever used (or permitted to be use) in public
                  > worship. It is entirely possible that these were intended
                  > solely as artistic creations similar to (for example)
                  > orchestrating a symphony based on a set of well-known themes,
                  > and intended as entertainment.

                  How could that be the case, given that in Russia, the singing
                  Orthodox liturgical music in concerts was illegal until the end
                  of the 19th century? (Whereas western church music was permitted
                  in concerts.)

                  > It is also interesting to note that there is very little
                  > attempt to harmonize the melodies using a musical theory that
                  > we are even remotely familiar with. The native Russian
                  > polyphony found in these chants is based on a folk music
                  > theory which is full of dissonance, unexpected parallel
                  > seconds and other grating intervals (including the final notes
                  > of cadences), and lengthy sections of unison where one would
                  > expect the use of harmony. Musical theorists have long been
                  > frustrated the elusive nature of this polyphony, and even the
                  > leading theorists are aware that they have not been able to
                  > come up with anything solid to work with, but are making a
                  > modern analytical guess. Many of the transcriptions into
                  > modern notation leave us puzzled and wondering if we "got it
                  > right". It's certainly an enigma, and there is very little in
                  > the way of written material to give us any clue that we are on
                  > the right path.

                  Even Bortnyansky was concerned with the polyphonic neumatic
                  scores, which "even the best Old Believer church musicians" of
                  the time could not decipher. As no major breakthrough has been
                  made since those times, the reality is that no-one really knows
                  for sure how the music that was written into these documents
                  sounded. As the transcriptions made are little more than
                  speculation, the same is the case with all contemplations on the
                  existence and nature of a "music theory" for that music, even if
                  there are various publications on the matter.

                  > The time period of these native Russian polyphonic manuscripts
                  > was from the late 1500s through the late 1700s. Western
                  > polyphony was brought into Russia following the annexation of
                  > Ukraine in the mid-1600s and subsequently introduced into
                  > Moscow by Tsar Aleksei and Patriarch Nikon establishing a
                  > Ukrainian presence in the imperial court and in the churches
                  > of the kremlin. This western (Polish Renaissance) polyphony
                  > was attractive to the nobility and wealthy patrons of Moscow's
                  > churches, and soon began to displace the traditional
                  > Byzantine-Russian Znamenny Chant. This new popular way of
                  > singing spread quickly from the leading churches of the
                  > kremlin to the rest of the city of Moscow, and then to the
                  > leading cities of Russian, and eventually into the
                  > countryside, with the remote monasteries (such as Valaam and
                  > Solovki) holding out the longest.

                  It is quite far-fetched to equate the partesny style, an
                  offspring of the Polish Renaissance music, with the subsequent
                  practices of singing chant in harmony from monophonic sources.

                  I would also be cautious in making assumptions on the nature of
                  church singing in Valaam and Solovki. The pre-Revolutionary
                  Valaam was revived from ruins by the initiative of Peter the
                  Great in 1715 after a hundred years of desolation, and thus, it
                  didn't have a living connection to monophonic singing traditions
                  any more than the Petrine society in general. Furthermore it is
                  well-documented that in the mid-19th century, church singing in
                  Valaam was principally polyphonic.

                  > The result of this influx of western polyphony was the almost
                  > complete disappearance of the native Russian polyphony (with
                  > its more dissonant int

                  As you say earlier, the prevalence (if not even the existence) of
                  a "native Russian polyphony" (btw, I think that during Stalin's
                  time they had a proverb: "Russia, the homeland of elephants",
                  ridiculing the official propaganda about the wholesale
                  superiority of the Soviet state which everyone was bored of) is
                  uncertain; thus, there may not have been too much to disappear in
                  the first place, and whatever it was, we know not.

                  > Speaking from a personal preference, I find the few readily
                  > accessible examples of this type of polyphony to be very
                  > challenging to my modern ears, even as a musicologist and a
                  > specialist in Znamenny Chant. The music is fascinating, but it
                  > doesn't provide much of a spiritual "uplifting", nor is it even
                  > easy to listen to for entertainment purposes.

                  You are right: this is because the music in question is entirely
                  synthetic. On some discs they sing it very meticulously indeed,
                  carefully including even any misprints that there are in the
                  transcriptions published by Uspensky. However, anyone furnished
                  with anything like a little of common sense can conclude that if
                  the music has been used in divine services around the time when
                  the scores were written, it is extremely unlikely that it could
                  have sounded that way.

                  > If one is going to focus on early polyphony in the Orthodox
                  > Church, I strongly encourage the study of traditional Georgian
                  > Chant, which possibly dates back to the 10th century, and is a
                  > field of study virtually begging for more scholars to unlock
                  > its secrets and share its mystique.

                  That is correct, especially for the reason that the Georgian
                  polyphony is an unbroken living tradition.

                  - Jopi Harri
                • Nikita Simmons
                  ... I have long wondered about this, and I am of the opinion (just an opinion, mind you) that this might have been tolerated in a part of Russia which had
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 2, 2009
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                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 2.4.2009 20:43, Nikita Simmons wrote:
                    > > The first manuscripts containing polyphonic chants in Russia
                    > > appeared in the late 1500s, so anything prior to that is
                    > > purely conjecture.
                    >
                    > Just a few remarks.
                    >
                    > There are mentions of performing chant in some sort of polyphony
                    > in the chinovnik of Novgorod St. Sophia from the 1540s.

                    I have long wondered about this, and I am of the opinion (just an opinion, mind you) that this might have been tolerated in a part of Russia which had traditionally had more ties with the West (the former principalities of Novgorod and Pskov). We know from history that Novgorod had long been a member of the Hanseatic League (a trading guild), and that some rather progressive musical influence developed in this region (such as the melodic singing of the Lord's Prayer and the Creed, as opposed to the communal recitation known almost everywhere else in Orthodoxy). Any thoughts on this, Jopi?

                    > > Certainly we know very well what the official position of the
                    > > Church was in this matter, for there is an introductory
                    > > chapter to the second volume of the pre-Nikonian Octoechos
                    > > (Tones 5-8) full of instructional quotations from the Church
                    > > Fathers (especially St. John Chrysostom) on the importance of
                    > > singing in unity and unison singing as a means of achieving a
                    > > communal unity of faith.
                    >
                    > The introduction can be interpreted as well, or more likely, to
                    > condemn the simultaneous conduct of divine services and other
                    > kinds of disorderly manners, than be concerned about a sort or
                    > another of polyphonic singing.

                    I can understand what you are saying, as these technical terms are etymologically the same, but nevertheless it still remains to be explained why "mnogoglasie" is mentioned in the church books, and "mnogogolosie" is used in the contemporary Church Slavonic text of the proceedings of the Stoglav Council. Perhaps there is a good explanation, but I'm waiting to be convinced. Moreover, the quotes from the early Church fathers in the introductory portion of the Octoechos hardly seem to be discussing or documenting a liturgical abuse of simultaneous singing of liturgical texts originating in the early Christian centuries. Perhaps they were more concerned with "unity" in a more abstract sense, but there had to have been a specific intention or purpose for mentioning "mnogoglasie" in these writings. I'm not certain we shall ever have a definitive answer to these questions, but I do know that the official position of the Old Ritualists (and one which I tend to be in agreement with) is the ban on polyphonic singing in public worship -- a position which was also maintained by the Greek Church until modern times. (And Old Believers are not prone to "making things up", nor are they even very good at it, to be candid. The Old Belief is most noted for continuing the old Russian policies and mentalities, and we have never been very good at "original thinking" - a distinctive character trait of our culture.)

                    > > Even with the existence of the very small number of polyphonic
                    > > chant manuscripts, we cannot draw a firm conclusion that
                    > > these were ever used (or permitted to be use) in public
                    > > worship. It is entirely possible that these were intended
                    > > solely as artistic creations similar to (for example)
                    > > orchestrating a symphony based on a set of well-known themes,
                    > > and intended as entertainment.
                    >
                    > How could that be the case, given that in Russia, the singing
                    > Orthodox liturgical music in concerts was illegal until the end
                    > of the 19th century? (Whereas western church music was permitted
                    > in concerts.)

                    Well, you do have a good point, and I don't know how to respond to this. Do you have any information on whether these unusual polyphonic settings were actually used or not (apart from the example mentioned in a chinovnik)?

                    > > It is also interesting to note that there is very little
                    > > attempt to harmonize the melodies using a musical theory that
                    > > we are even remotely familiar with. The native Russian
                    > > polyphony found in these chants is based on a folk music
                    > > theory which is full of dissonance, unexpected parallel
                    > > seconds and other grating intervals (including the final notes
                    > > of cadences), and lengthy sections of unison where one would
                    > > expect the use of harmony. Musical theorists have long been
                    > > frustrated the elusive nature of this polyphony, and even the
                    > > leading theorists are aware that they have not been able to
                    > > come up with anything solid to work with, but are making a
                    > > modern analytical guess. Many of the transcriptions into
                    > > modern notation leave us puzzled and wondering if we "got it
                    > > right". It's certainly an enigma, and there is very little in
                    > > the way of written material to give us any clue that we are on
                    > > the right path.
                    >
                    > Even Bortnyansky was concerned with the polyphonic neumatic
                    > scores, which "even the best Old Believer church musicians" of
                    > the time could not decipher. As no major breakthrough has been
                    > made since those times, the reality is that no-one really knows
                    > for sure how the music that was written into these documents
                    > sounded. As the transcriptions made are little more than
                    > speculation, the same is the case with all contemplations on the
                    > existence and nature of a "music theory" for that music, even if
                    > there are various publications on the matter.

                    Another point that I should have made earlier is that the somewhat bizarre polyphony found in these chant manuscripts seems to have been mainly used for settings of church hymns, while the common folk music of Russia and Southwestern Rus seems to have had a musical theory that was much simpler and certainly more palatable to our ears. Hundreds of collectors of folk songs from the most distant and secluded parts of Russia, possibly starting as early as the late 1700s, have rarely documented folk songs which had a music theory approaching the complexity of these polyphonic chant compositions.

                    Thus, we now have to consider whether or not the "native Russian polyphony" of the few chant manuscripts provides evidence of a genuine native musical tradition. As far as I can surmise, the genuine native musical tradition was the type of folk polyphony which provides the foundation for the traditional harmonization of the Kievan Chant and "Greek Chant" repertoire, and subsequently the harmonization of the Kiev Caves chants and the Court chants, etc. (These later chants may have had some western influence, but certainly their fundamental music theory has many elements unique to the eastern Slavic cultures and not to western musical culture.) -- Jopi, I believe that you have done a considerable amount of research on this subject, so I will defer to you for a confirmation of this matter.

                    > > The time period of these native Russian polyphonic manuscripts
                    > > was from the late 1500s through the late 1700s. Western
                    > > polyphony was brought into Russia following the annexation of
                    > > Ukraine in the mid-1600s and subsequently introduced into
                    > > Moscow by Tsar Aleksei and Patriarch Nikon establishing a
                    > > Ukrainian presence in the imperial court and in the churches
                    > > of the kremlin. This western (Polish Renaissance) polyphony
                    > > was attractive to the nobility and wealthy patrons of Moscow's
                    > > churches, and soon began to displace the traditional
                    > > Byzantine-Russian Znamenny Chant. This new popular way of
                    > > singing spread quickly from the leading churches of the
                    > > kremlin to the rest of the city of Moscow, and then to the
                    > > leading cities of Russian, and eventually into the
                    > > countryside, with the remote monasteries (such as Valaam and
                    > > Solovki) holding out the longest.
                    >
                    > It is quite far-fetched to equate the partesny style, an
                    > offspring of the Polish Renaissance music, with the subsequent
                    > practices of singing chant in harmony from monophonic sources.
                    >
                    > I would also be cautious in making assumptions on the nature of
                    > church singing in Valaam and Solovki. The pre-Revolutionary
                    > Valaam was revived from ruins by the initiative of Peter the
                    > Great in 1715 after a hundred years of desolation, and thus, it
                    > didn't have a living connection to monophonic singing traditions
                    > any more than the Petrine society in general. Furthermore it is
                    > well-documented that in the mid-19th century, church singing in
                    > Valaam was principally polyphonic.

                    I agree with you in this matter. We know that the Solovestky Monastery was the main holdout for stubborn Old Ritualists in the far north of Russia, and that the government laid siege to the monastery until it had to be abandoned (with the loss of many lives). The monastery's influence in the spiritual sphere of the nation eventually was recovered to some degree, but the whole debacle caused Tsar Peter I to subjugate the authority of the Church and to close down all the rural sketes and monasteries. The monastic life in Russia was firmly contained within a few supervised monasteries to prevent the free-thinking elements of the Church from exerting any socio-political influence over the government and the Church alike. This also had a disastrous effect on the preservation of regional styles of monophonic chant, and we are poorer today for lacking such cultural diversity.

                    > > The result of this influx of western polyphony was the almost
                    > > complete disappearance of the native Russian polyphony (with
                    > > its more dissonant int
                    >
                    > As you say earlier, the prevalence (if not even the existence) of
                    > a "native Russian polyphony" (btw, I think that during Stalin's
                    > time they had a proverb: "Russia, the homeland of elephants",
                    > ridiculing the official propaganda about the wholesale
                    > superiority of the Soviet state which everyone was bored of) is
                    > uncertain; thus, there may not have been too much to disappear in
                    > the first place, and whatever it was, we know not.

                    I am inclined to agree with you here, although I am tempted to view this "native Russian polyphony" as akin to the Great Woolly Mammoth -- it got too complex for its own good, and a more flexible and aesthetically pleasing type of polyphony sent the "native" type into extinction. Perhaps this is an example of "natural selection" being exhibited in the musical realm.

                    Nikita
                  • Jopi Harri
                    ... Yes, until proven otherwise, I suppose that it is logical to presume that 1) in Russian church singing, the idea of polyphony (but not necessarily its
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 3, 2009
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                      On 3.4.2009 5:04, Nikita Simmons wrote:
                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >> There are mentions of performing chant in some sort of
                      >> polyphony in the chinovnik of Novgorod St. Sophia from the
                      >> 1540s.

                      > I have long wondered about this, and I am of the opinion (just
                      > an opinion, mind you) that this might have been tolerated in
                      > a part of Russia which had traditionally had more ties with
                      > the West (the former principalities of Novgorod and Pskov). We
                      > know from history that Novgorod had long been a member of the
                      > Hanseatic League (a trading guild), and that some rather
                      > progressive musical influence developed in this region (such
                      > as the melodic singing of the Lord's Prayer and the Creed, as
                      > opposed to the communal recitation known almost everywhere
                      > else in Orthodoxy). Any thoughts on this, Jopi?

                      Yes, until proven otherwise, I suppose that it is logical to
                      presume that 1) in Russian church singing, the idea of polyphony
                      (but not necessarily its realization) was imported from
                      somewhere, more likely from the West than from Georgia; 2) the
                      introduction of polyphony may very well have taken place first in
                      Novgorod, perhaps even during the time when the Mongol Yoke was
                      in effect in other parts of Russia. However, because of the
                      lack of documents, we can't know for sure the exact time when
                      this started, nor the prevalence of polyphonic church singing in
                      Russia in the 16th century. The fact that Old Believers reject
                      polyphony suggests that no form of it had become a standard
                      practice by mid-1600s, at least in Moscow.

                      >> The introduction can be interpreted as well, or more likely,
                      >> to condemn the simultaneous conduct of divine services and
                      >> other kinds of disorderly manners, than be concerned about a
                      >> sort or another of polyphonic singing.

                      > I can understand what you are saying, as these technical terms
                      > are etymologically the same, but nevertheless it still
                      > remains to be explained why "mnogoglasie" is mentioned in the
                      > church books, and "mnogogolosie" is used in the contemporary
                      > Church Slavonic text of the proceedings of the Stoglav
                      > Council.

                      Is this really the case? However, as you say, the terms are
                      etymologically equal, but singing in polyphony and chanting
                      different portions of services simultaneously can hardly be
                      equated, at least their effects are very different. Thus, I
                      consider it unlikely that mnogoglasie/mnogogolosie would have
                      been used in reference to both of these practices; if the subject
                      is polyphonic singing, why didn't the authors of these texts use
                      a clearer terminology, such as "strochnoe penie", "penie s
                      verhom", "mnogosostavnoe penie", "partesnoe penie" (some of which
                      must have been known in the 17th century), or the like?

                      > Moreover, the quotes from the early Church fathers in the
                      > introductory portion of the Octoechos hardly seem to be
                      > discussing or documenting a liturgical abuse of simultaneous
                      > singing of liturgical texts originating in the early Christian
                      > centuries. Perhaps they were more concerned with "unity" in a
                      > more abstract sense, but there had to have been a specific
                      > intention or purpose for mentioning "mnogoglasie" in these
                      > writings. I'm not certain we shall ever have a definitive
                      > answer to these questions, but I do know that the official
                      > position of the Old Ritualists (and one which I tend to be in
                      > agreement with) is the ban

                      [It seems that your messages get stripped, probably because of
                      some lack of <CR>/<LF> characters.]

                      I am familiar with the writings of Church fathers being used as
                      arguments against polyphonic singing - and don't deny the
                      validity of this reasoning when the question is about defending
                      something that is already considered part of the doctrine - but
                      the reality is that as St. John Chrysostom, for instance, just
                      couldn't have been familiar with polyphonic singing in the modern
                      sense, as it was yet to be invented, his writings are not aimed
                      against polyphonic singing but against something else. Even if
                      this target of criticism may have been related to the reason why
                      polyphonic singing emerged, they are not the same thing.

                      Personally I read those writings to call for general discipline
                      and order in church, i.e. 1) all singing the same piece; 2) all
                      singing the same piece all at once, and the like.

                      >>> Even with the existence of the very small number of
                      >>> polyphonic chant manuscripts, we cannot draw a firm
                      >>> conclusion that these were ever used (or permitted to be
                      >>> use) in public worship. It is entirely possible that these
                      >>> were intended solely as artistic creations similar to (for
                      >>> example) orchestrating a symphony based on a set of
                      >>> well-known themes, and intended as entertainment.

                      >> How could that be the case, given that in Russia, the
                      >> singing Orthodox liturgical music in concerts was illegal
                      >> until the end of the 19th century? (Whereas western church
                      >> music was permitted in concerts.)

                      > Well, you do have a good point, and I don't know how to
                      > respond to this. Do you have any information on whether these
                      > unusual polyphonic settings were actually used or not (apart
                      > from the example mentioned in a chinovnik)?

                      Well, (cf. Occam's Razor) if some polyphonic settings of church
                      music were written down around the 17th century, I find it
                      extraordinary that this would have taken place for some other
                      reason than liturgical use, real or intended. The somewhat
                      controversial concept of liturgical concert music didn't exist -
                      even in the West - prior to the 19th century.

                      I admit that I have practically taken for granted that this
                      music was sung in divine services even elsewhere than in
                      Novgorod, and thus haven't investigated other published
                      chinovniki that are available from the 17th century (I don't know
                      if any others than St. Sophia exist from the 1500s).

                      > Another point that I should have made earlier is that the
                      > somewhat bizarre polyphony found in these chant manuscripts
                      > seems to have been mainly used for settings of church hymns,
                      > while the common folk music of Russia and Southwestern Rus
                      > seems to have had a musical theory that was much simpler and
                      > certainly more palatable to our ears. Hundreds of collectors
                      > of folk songs from the most distant and secluded parts of
                      > Russia, possibly starting as early as the late 1700s, have
                      > rarely documented folk songs which had a music theory
                      > approaching the complexity of these polyphonic chant
                      > compositions.

                      About two years ago I made some investigations regarding the
                      status of research on traditional Russian/Ukrainian secular folk
                      music and its performance practices in pre-modern times, in the
                      hope that I could establish some sort of connection with this
                      music and polyphonic chant.

                      A major part of published repertories and research is reachable
                      in Helsinki. However, the early transcriptions have typically
                      been adapted to the musical preconceptions of the collectors, and
                      if they are provided in harmony, the harmonizations are almost
                      always made by the collector. The significant exception is the
                      work by Evgenia Lineva, rendered in polyphonic transcriptions
                      made by her from phonograms recorded on the field (some of it is
                      available on my website). Incidentally there are no other than
                      collected sources of polyphonic or monodic folk music, comparable
                      to those of chant polyphony - because folk music is not performed
                      from sheet but is what is in the heads of the performers.

                      The outcome, as far as I can tell, is that nothing sort of a
                      reliable connection with any form of chant polyphony can be
                      established (cf. writings by Alfred Swan, who advocates a
                      connection but after all, fails to demonstrate any). And to the
                      extent the genuine folk music is reachable, no systematic music
                      theory behind it is obvious.

                      > Thus, we now have to consider whether or not the "native
                      > Russian polyphony" of the few chant manuscripts provides
                      > evidence of a genuine native musical tradition.

                      Actually I don't believe that there would be evidence for that.
                      This is because of the following: to the extent that the sources
                      can be deciphered, they turn out not to represent a single
                      coherent style but are quite diverse. My impression is that some
                      of them - those representing what is customarily referred to as
                      Demestvenny polyphony - are not necessarily polyphonic at all, or
                      if they are, represent a sort of polyphony that remains totally
                      enigmatic (the speculations by Beljaev and others are artificial,
                      how hard they ever try to prove the existence of a distinct
                      native polyphony), while others contain principally music which
                      represents neumatic renditions of chant harmonizations of the
                      Kant style, or something that tries to imitate it, which
                      sometimes fails more and sometimes less.

                      Because the neumatic system is incapable of indicating chromatic
                      alterations, there is no method to include them in the script,
                      and now some presume that the genuine Russian polyphony consists
                      of singing chant in a "modal" harmony (like playing on the piano
                      a piece written in D major but disregarding the key signature).
                      If the harmony is corrected, the stylistic difference to familiar
                      chant harmonizations tends to become quite minuscule, especially
                      if scribal errors (like clearly wrong pitch marks and selections
                      of neumes) are not accounted.

                      > As far as I can surmise, the genuine native musical tradition
                      > was the type of folk polyphony which provides the foundation
                      > for the traditional harmonization of the Kievan Chant and
                      > "Greek Chant" repertoire, and subsequently the harmonization
                      > of the Kiev Caves chants and the Court chants, etc.

                      On the grounds of my investigation on folk music, I became to
                      think that if there was influence, it was rather from church
                      music to folk music than vice versa. Thus, the common harmonic
                      idiom for chant polyphony apparently didn't come from folk music.
                      Where did it come from, is a difficult question. Clearly it was
                      influenced by western music in a form or another, but as a
                      similar idiom doesn't exist in western music (as far as I know),
                      it must have been a domestic innovation.

                      > I agree with you in this matter. We know that the Solovestky
                      > Monastery was the main holdout for stubborn Old Ritualists in
                      > the far north of Russia, and that the government laid siege to
                      > the monastery until it had to be abandoned (with the loss of
                      > many lives). The monastery's influence in the spiritual sphere
                      > of the nation eventually was recovered to some degree, but the
                      > whole debacle caused Tsar Peter I to subjugate the authority
                      > of the Church and to close down all the rural sketes and
                      > monasteries. The monastic life in Russia was firmly contained
                      > within a few supervised monasteries to prevent the
                      > free-thinking elements of the Church from exerting any
                      > socio-political influence over the government and the Church
                      > alike. This also had a disastrous effect on the preservation
                      > of regional styles of monophonic chant, and we are poorer
                      > today for lacking such cultural diversity.

                      What I have learnt from investigating the Valaam singing
                      tradition is that in practice there was no radical juxtaposition
                      of monophony and polyphony in monasteries. Whenever full
                      polyphony couldn't be accomplished, it was quite natural and
                      spontaneous to sing in less parts or in monophony.

                      - Jopi Harri
                    • Molly Grabowski
                      Yes, until proven otherwise, I suppose that it is logical to presume that 1) in Russian church singing, the idea of polyphony(but not necessarily its
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 3, 2009
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                        Yes, until proven otherwise, I suppose that it is logical to presume
                        that 1) in Russian church singing, the idea of polyphony(but not
                        necessarily its realization) was imported from somewhere, more likely
                        from the West than from Georgia.

                        **I don't know very much about music history, but this presumption that
                        an indigenous population must have gotten a more highly developed and
                        intellectually difficult concept from somewhere else is continually
                        disproved in archaeological studies in other fields.

                        Take pyramid building for example - the idea that the Mayans and the
                        civilization at Angkor somehow "borrowed" the concept from the Egyptians
                        used to be accepted as fact. But at the end of the day, you give
                        somebody enough stones (even a child) and tell them to build something
                        as high as they can and you will end up with a pyramid shape because
                        that's the only way to build something really tall with the material
                        provided. Hey - there aren't ANY documents that show how the concept
                        of pyramid building developed in ANY of these civilizations, and
                        therefore, modern scholars and even those guys on the history channel
                        now believe that the idea sprang up independently in those 3 regions . .
                        . as well as mound building in North America and among the Scythic tribes.

                        The concept being that you want your dead in a structure that rises to
                        heaven - or you want your rituals taking place as close to heaven as you
                        can get. Rising to the occasion (pun intended) in service of the divine
                        is a commonly shared human urge. Why should it be any different with
                        music . . . music that sounds beautiful . . . or more beautiful.

                        Why on earth are we giving in to the assumption that the medieval
                        Russians weren't capable of coming up with harmony on their own when we
                        are equally willing to assume that the Georgians did? What about the
                        Welsh? You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                        than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                        with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were developed
                        independently.

                        Theodora
                      • Jopi Harri
                        ... O Russia, the homeland of elephants! Were Russians capable of coming up with harmony on their own or not is outside of the topic, because were they capable
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 3, 2009
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                          On 3.4.2009 19:10, Molly Grabowski wrote:
                          > Why on earth are we giving in to the assumption that the medieval
                          > Russians weren't capable of coming up with harmony on their own when we
                          > are equally willing to assume that the Georgians did?

                          O Russia, the homeland of elephants!

                          Were Russians capable of coming up with harmony on their own or
                          not is outside of the topic, because were they capable or
                          incapable, they just didn't come up with harmony on their own. It
                          is a solid fact that polyphonic church singing did not emerge in
                          Russia until the Russians already knew about polyphonic singing
                          in western styles.

                          And what comes to Georgians, I presume the same: unless proven
                          otherwise, it is very likely that they had been predisposed to
                          some sort of external influence before they embarked upon
                          introducing polyphonic church singing.

                          Consider that the ancients didn't invent polyphony (even if they
                          invented quite everything else, including musical instruments
                          that were capable of playing in polyphony). And for West
                          Europeans it didn't take less than a millennium.

                          > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                          > than one group of people who have no contact with each other.

                          Compared to polyphony, pasta is a piece of cake. And even are the
                          pyramids. Had the Mayas built a replica of the Eiffel Tower, that
                          would have been something to boast about.

                          - Jopi Harri
                        • Nikita Simmons
                          ... Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of Russian fast food cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are the best form
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 3, 2009
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                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...> wrote:
                            > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                            > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                            > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were developed
                            > independently.
                            >
                            > Theodora

                            Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a bit different.

                            Nikita
                          • Molly Grabowski
                            You are making you hungry.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 3, 2009
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                              You are making you hungry.


                              Nikita Simmons wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly
                              > Grabowski <mookitty@...> wrote:
                              > > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                              > > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                              > > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were
                              > developed
                              > > independently.
                              > >
                              > > Theodora
                              >
                              > Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of
                              > Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are
                              > the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even
                              > during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed
                              > potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too
                              > much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a
                              > bit different.
                              >
                              > Nikita
                              >
                              >
                            • Nikita Simmons
                              ... Lent has a way of doing that. I wonder why that is..... Personally, I just can t seem to get by on the St. Mary of Egypt Diet. :-)
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 3, 2009
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                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You are making you hungry.

                                Lent has a way of doing that. I wonder why that is..... Personally, I just can't seem to get by on the St. Mary of Egypt Diet. :-)


                                > Nikita Simmons wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly
                                > > Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                > > > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                                > > > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                                > > > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were
                                > > developed
                                > > > independently.
                                > > >
                                > > > Theodora
                                > >
                                > > Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of
                                > > Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are
                                > > the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even
                                > > during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed
                                > > potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too
                                > > much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a
                                > > bit different.
                                > >
                                > > Nikita
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Meg Lark
                                ... [ml] That s not what I learned from Professor Olga Ackerly, and the only reason I even opened this topic was to refresh, also to expand, my memory on the
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 4, 2009
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                                  On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On 3.4.2009 19:10, Molly Grabowski wrote:
                                  > > Why on earth are we giving in to the assumption that the medieval
                                  > > Russians weren't capable of coming up with harmony on their own when we
                                  > > are equally willing to assume that the Georgians did?
                                  >
                                  > O Russia, the homeland of elephants!
                                  >
                                  > Were Russians capable of coming up with harmony on their own or
                                  > not is outside of the topic, because were they capable or
                                  > incapable, they just didn't come up with harmony on their own. It
                                  > is a solid fact that polyphonic church singing did not emerge in
                                  > Russia until the Russians already knew about polyphonic singing
                                  > in western styles.

                                  [ml] That's not what I learned from Professor Olga Ackerly, and the
                                  only reason I even opened this topic was to refresh, also to expand,
                                  my memory on the subject of native Russian polyphony -- according to
                                  Dr. Ackerly, "Russians have always harmonized." So I'd be interested
                                  to see your source that establishes Russians' inability to harmonize
                                  as "solid fact."

                                  In Christ,
                                  Meg
                                • Jopi Harri
                                  ... This is not a matter of ability. There just is no known evidence on Russians singing church music in any sort of harmony during the Mongol Yoke (c.
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 4, 2009
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                                    On 4.4.2009 14:39, Meg Lark wrote:
                                    > On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                                    >> Were Russians capable of coming up with harmony on their own or
                                    >> not is outside of the topic, because were they capable or
                                    >> incapable, they just didn't come up with harmony on their own. It
                                    >> is a solid fact that polyphonic church singing did not emerge in
                                    >> Russia until the Russians already knew about polyphonic singing
                                    >> in western styles.
                                    >
                                    > [ml] That's not what I learned from Professor Olga Ackerly, and the
                                    > only reason I even opened this topic was to refresh, also to expand,
                                    > my memory on the subject of native Russian polyphony -- according to
                                    > Dr. Ackerly, "Russians have always harmonized." So I'd be interested
                                    > to see your source that establishes Russians' inability to harmonize
                                    > as "solid fact."

                                    This is not a matter of ability. There just is no known evidence
                                    on Russians singing church music in any sort of harmony during
                                    the Mongol Yoke (c. 1240-1480) or before it. If Dr. Ackerly has
                                    found such evidence, it would be nice from her side to not keep
                                    it to herself.

                                    - Jopi Harri
                                  • Nikita Simmons
                                    ... I m going to have to agree with Jopi here. Until the very first mention of polyphonic singing being used in Russian church services (I m assuming it was in
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 4, 2009
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                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > On 4.4.2009 14:39, Meg Lark wrote:
                                      > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                                      > >> Were Russians capable of coming up with harmony on their own or
                                      > >> not is outside of the topic, because were they capable or
                                      > >> incapable, they just didn't come up with harmony on their own. It
                                      > >> is a solid fact that polyphonic church singing did not emerge in
                                      > >> Russia until the Russians already knew about polyphonic singing
                                      > >> in western styles.
                                      > >
                                      > > [ml] That's not what I learned from Professor Olga Ackerly, and the
                                      > > only reason I even opened this topic was to refresh, also to expand,
                                      > > my memory on the subject of native Russian polyphony -- according to
                                      > > Dr. Ackerly, "Russians have always harmonized." So I'd be interested
                                      > > to see your source that establishes Russians' inability to harmonize
                                      > > as "solid fact."
                                      >
                                      > This is not a matter of ability. There just is no known evidence
                                      > on Russians singing church music in any sort of harmony during
                                      > the Mongol Yoke (c. 1240-1480) or before it. If Dr. Ackerly has
                                      > found such evidence, it would be nice from her side to not keep
                                      > it to herself.
                                      >
                                      > - Jopi Harri

                                      I'm going to have to agree with Jopi here. Until the very first mention of polyphonic singing being used in Russian church services (I'm assuming it was in the 16th cent. Chinovnik which Jopi mentioned in a previous post), there is simply no evidence of polyphony in Russia at all. Of course this is not the kind of fact where you can draw any substantial conclusions, because the complete lack of a written record cannot prove or refute a point.

                                      However, we have well over a thousand surviving unison neumatic chant manuscripts dating from the earliest centuries of Christianity in Russia up to the time of the schism (mid-17th cent.), which firmly establishes the practice of unison singing as the norm up to the time of the schism. Perhaps there were exceptions from time to time, or from place to place, but if this were the case, don't you think that it would only be natural for the chant manuscripts to give some hint to the existence of polyphony in Church singing sometime before its quasi-official introduction into public worship under Patriarch Nikon? There should at least be a few attempts at producing scores (I'm not talking about the later attempts at 3-part Demestvenny and Put' Chants, which are anomalous and not a part of the long-established Znamenny "Stolp" melodic tradition). There should also be some mention of polyphony in the *numerous* medieval Azbuki (lists of neumes, primitive musical treatises, and primers). But no, there is not even a vague hint of the practice. We still can't prove that polyphony wasn't used, but we certainly cannot even begin to make a point that it *WAS* used. Not even travelers from other countries (especially merchants who have left a number of cultural eye-witness travelogues) can shed any light on the matter.

                                      But turning to the subject of polyphonic singing in *FOLK* (non-ecclesiastical) singing, I think that we can certainly make a point that it did exist in the common culture of Russia. It's almost inconceivable that two or three people sitting around a fire with a tankard of homebrew would not have eventually discovered that they could sing the same song together in different ways and end up with a primitive harmony. I am not aware of any culture on earth that has not experienced the harmonization of voices as an expression of folk music.

                                      Furthermore, even the earliest collectors of folk singing in the remote villages of Russia document a very well-established oral tradition that has similarities with most other cultures in eastern Europe and the Balkans (including the use of a song leader singing antiphonally with the rest of the singers). The Russians even share a common scale modality (although not developed into a full octave scale) and somewhat modern pitch intervals with the rest of Europe.

                                      Even more revealing is the fact that these earliest folk song collections document the use of the raised leading tone (a practice likewise encountered in the oral traditions of the Old Believers, even in our church singing). Based on this fact, I have been tempted for many years to propose a theory that Russian folk singing possess a link with almost all other European musical cultures, and I believe that this link goes back to *VERY* early centuries, perhaps as far back as "proto-European" or "Indo-european" times (certainly earlier than "proto-Slavic" culture).

                                      I feel that we need to be careful to draw a firm line of distinction between ecclesiastical and folk music cultures. Of course we can argue that there is some natural element of cross-influence, but if we look at look at numerous other cultures for a working model (such as traditional Byzantine Chant versus Greek folk songs), it seems that these cultures all prefer to keep a great distance between their sacred (worship) and secular (entertainment) styles of singing.

                                      Nikita
                                    • frjsilver
                                      Christ is risen! Truly risen! Dear Friends -- Dr Olga Ackerly (she and her mother are old friends of mine) might be on to something here. Is it possible that
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 4, 2009
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                                        Christ is risen! Truly risen!

                                        Dear Friends --

                                        Dr Olga Ackerly (she and her mother are old friends of mine) might be on to something here.

                                        Is it possible that the ancient russian neumatic manuscripts describe *only* the _melos_, to which might have been added at least harmonic thirds/fifths/(diminished)sevenths or even some sort of unwritten _isokratEma_?

                                        This hunch of mine comes from an awareness of russian -- especially east russian/siberian -- folk music, whose harmonized melodies often start and resolve in unison.

                                        I have a hard time believing that ancient liturgical singing, of whatever culture, departed very far from its own cultural matrix. Even synagogue singing breaks into unwritten harmony, and the Jews, traditionally, have no 'hymnals' -- just texts. Medieval european secular music, e.g., often shows modal characteristics of gregorian chant at the same time as it makes use of hollow and haunting open fifths. Might they have been sung so in church, at least by the laity?

                                        Peace and blessings to all as we continue this holy fast.

                                        Monk James



                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Nikita Simmons
                                        To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:15 PM
                                        Subject: [ustav] Re: Native Russian Polyphony


                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 4.4.2009 14:39, Meg Lark wrote:
                                        > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:
                                        > >> Were Russians capable of coming up with harmony on their own or
                                        > >> not is outside of the topic, because were they capable or
                                        > >> incapable, they just didn't come up with harmony on their own. It
                                        > >> is a solid fact that polyphonic church singing did not emerge in
                                        > >> Russia until the Russians already knew about polyphonic singing
                                        > >> in western styles.
                                        > >
                                        > > [ml] That's not what I learned from Professor Olga Ackerly, and the
                                        > > only reason I even opened this topic was to refresh, also to expand,
                                        > > my memory on the subject of native Russian polyphony -- according to
                                        > > Dr. Ackerly, "Russians have always harmonized." So I'd be interested
                                        > > to see your source that establishes Russians' inability to harmonize
                                        > > as "solid fact."
                                        >
                                        > This is not a matter of ability. There just is no known evidence
                                        > on Russians singing church music in any sort of harmony during
                                        > the Mongol Yoke (c. 1240-1480) or before it. If Dr. Ackerly has
                                        > found such evidence, it would be nice from her side to not keep
                                        > it to herself.
                                        >
                                        > - Jopi Harri

                                        I'm going to have to agree with Jopi here. Until the very first mention of polyphonic singing being used in Russian church services (I'm assuming it was in the 16th cent. Chinovnik which Jopi mentioned in a previous post), there is simply no evidence of polyphony in Russia at all. Of course this is not the kind of fact where you can draw any substantial conclusions, because the complete lack of a written record cannot prove or refute a point.

                                        However, we have well over a thousand surviving unison neumatic chant manuscripts dating from the earliest centuries of Christianity in Russia up to the time of the schism (mid-17th cent.), which firmly establishes the practice of unison singing as the norm up to the time of the schism. Perhaps there were exceptions from time to time, or from place to place, but if this were the case, don't you think that it would only be natural for the chant manuscripts to give some hint to the existence of polyphony in Church singing sometime before its quasi-official introduction into public worship under Patriarch Nikon? There should at least be a few attempts at producing scores (I'm not talking about the later attempts at 3-part Demestvenny and Put' Chants, which are anomalous and not a part of the long-established Znamenny "Stolp" melodic tradition). There should also be some mention of polyphony in the *numerous* medieval Azbuki (lists of neumes, primitive musical treatises, and primers). But no, there is not even a vague hint of the practice. We still can't prove that polyphony wasn't used, but we certainly cannot even begin to make a point that it *WAS* used. Not even travelers from other countries (especially merchants who have left a number of cultural eye-witness travelogues) can shed any light on the matter.

                                        But turning to the subject of polyphonic singing in *FOLK* (non-ecclesiastical) singing, I think that we can certainly make a point that it did exist in the common culture of Russia. It's almost inconceivable that two or three people sitting around a fire with a tankard of homebrew would not have eventually discovered that they could sing the same song together in different ways and end up with a primitive harmony. I am not aware of any culture on earth that has not experienced the harmonization of voices as an expression of folk music.

                                        Furthermore, even the earliest collectors of folk singing in the remote villages of Russia document a very well-established oral tradition that has similarities with most other cultures in eastern Europe and the Balkans (including the use of a song leader singing antiphonally with the rest of the singers). The Russians even share a common scale modality (although not developed into a full octave scale) and somewhat modern pitch intervals with the rest of Europe.

                                        Even more revealing is the fact that these earliest folk song collections document the use of the raised leading tone (a practice likewise encountered in the oral traditions of the Old Believers, even in our church singing). Based on this fact, I have been tempted for many years to propose a theory that Russian folk singing possess a link with almost all other European musical cultures, and I believe that this link goes back to *VERY* early centuries, perhaps as far back as "proto-European" or "Indo-european" times (certainly earlier than "proto-Slavic" culture).

                                        I feel that we need to be careful to draw a firm line of distinction between ecclesiastical and folk music cultures. Of course we can argue that there is some natural element of cross-influence, but if we look at look at numerous other cultures for a working model (such as traditional Byzantine Chant versus Greek folk songs), it seems that these cultures all prefer to keep a great distance between their sacred (worship) and secular (entertainment) styles of singing.

                                        Nikita




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Jopi Harri
                                        ... Certainly. If we see something written in monophony, we can well state that there is only the melos in what we see, whereas other parts, were there any or
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 7, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On 5.4.2009 2:54, frjsilver wrote:
                                          > Is it possible that the ancient russian neumatic manuscripts
                                          > describe *only* the _melos_,

                                          Certainly. If we see something written in monophony, we can well
                                          state that there is only the melos in what we see, whereas other
                                          parts, were there any or not for that music, are lacking.

                                          > to which might have been added at
                                          > least harmonic thirds/fifths/(diminished)sevenths

                                          Yes, it is possible. However, no evidence has been found to
                                          support an early emergence of this sort of performance practice.

                                          > or even some sort of unwritten _isokratEma_?

                                          The use of isokratema in Russian chant is even more unlikely than
                                          the application of a parallel harmony. If isokratema was used
                                          some time, why did it end, as it is unknown in any unbroken
                                          living tradition.

                                          > This hunch of mine comes from an awareness of russian --
                                          > especially east russian/siberian -- folk music, whose harmonized
                                          > melodies often start and resolve in unison.

                                          But no sources earlier than late 19th century exist for Russian
                                          polyphonic folk music.

                                          > Medieval european secular music, e.g., often shows modal
                                          > characteristics of gregorian chant at the same time as it makes
                                          > use of hollow and haunting open fifths. Might they have been sung
                                          > so in church, at least by the laity?

                                          Because of evidence, it is a known fact that this was the case in
                                          the West. But no such evidence has been discovered for Russia
                                          (any more than for the ancients).

                                          - Jopi Harri
                                        • stephen_r1937
                                          Pelmenny in Siberia, vareniki elsewhere in Russia & in eastern Ukraine, pyrohy in western Ukraine & Carpathian Rus , pierogi in Poland--a gift from heaven for
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 7, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Pelmenny in Siberia, vareniki elsewhere in Russia & in eastern Ukraine, pyrohy in western Ukraine & Carpathian Rus', pierogi in Poland--a gift from heaven for fasters. They are available commercially in the Mrs T brand (the wife, I suppose, of the A Team's Mr T), but alas Mrs T cannot be Orthodox--hers have potatoes and *cheese*. Pyrohy financed many a church in the Orthodox heartland of the lower 48, back before it became the Rust Belt of today; baby and their granddaughters made them every week, vast numbers were sold every Saturday, fasts were facilitated and parishes were supported financially. They are so user friendly that when you boil them (that's why they are called varenyky), they stay at the bottom of the pot until they are done and ready to be taken out; then they float to the top to be scooped out. I think this is an unrecognized miracle.

                                            They can be stuffed, as Nikita says, with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut, onions, and/or mushrooms; also with stewed prunes (dessert pyrohy), and outside of fasts with cottage cheese. They can be sauteed after they are boiled. A service of thanksgiving for them would be appropriate, if only we could agree on what to call them.

                                            Russian pirozhki and Latvian pîrâgi are similar in shape but made with leavened bread and baked, and usually stuffed with meat, so they are not part of the Lenten menu.

                                            Stephen


                                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > You are making you hungry.
                                            >
                                            > Lent has a way of doing that. I wonder why that is..... Personally, I just can't seem to get by on the St. Mary of Egypt Diet. :-)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Nikita Simmons wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly
                                            > > > Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                            > > > > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                                            > > > > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                                            > > > > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were
                                            > > > developed
                                            > > > > independently.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Theodora
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of
                                            > > > Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are
                                            > > > the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even
                                            > > > during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed
                                            > > > potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too
                                            > > > much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a
                                            > > > bit different.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Nikita
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Billo, John
                                            Dear Stephen and All, Don t give up on commercial pyrohy. There is a brand out there with potatoes that are fast-worthy except for oil. Alas, the name
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Apr 7, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear Stephen and All,

                                              Don't give up on commercial pyrohy. There is a brand out there with potatoes that are fast-worthy except for oil. Alas, the name escapes me, but they come in a box of 12 and are separated like in a box of candy.

                                              Rdr. John

                                              ________________________________
                                              From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stephen_r1937
                                              Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:11 AM
                                              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [ustav] Re: Native Russian Polyphony


                                              Pelmenny in Siberia, vareniki elsewhere in Russia & in eastern Ukraine, pyrohy in western Ukraine & Carpathian Rus', pierogi in Poland--a gift from heaven for fasters. They are available commercially in the Mrs T brand (the wife, I suppose, of the A Team's Mr T), but alas Mrs T cannot be Orthodox--hers have potatoes and *cheese*. Pyrohy financed many a church in the Orthodox heartland of the lower 48, back before it became the Rust Belt of today; baby and their granddaughters made them every week, vast numbers were sold every Saturday, fasts were facilitated and parishes were supported financially. They are so user friendly that when you boil them (that's why they are called varenyky), they stay at the bottom of the pot until they are done and ready to be taken out; then they float to the top to be scooped out. I think this is an unrecognized miracle.

                                              They can be stuffed, as Nikita says, with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut, onions, and/or mushrooms; also with stewed prunes (dessert pyrohy), and outside of fasts with cottage cheese. They can be sauteed after they are boiled. A service of thanksgiving for them would be appropriate, if only we could agree on what to call them.

                                              Russian pirozhki and Latvian pîrâgi are similar in shape but made with leavened bread and baked, and usually stuffed with meat, so they are not part of the Lenten menu.

                                              Stephen

                                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > You are making you hungry.
                                              >
                                              > Lent has a way of doing that. I wonder why that is..... Personally, I just can't seem to get by on the St. Mary of Egypt Diet. :-)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Nikita Simmons wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly
                                              > > > Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                              > > > > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                                              > > > > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                                              > > > > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were
                                              > > > developed
                                              > > > > independently.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Theodora
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of
                                              > > > Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are
                                              > > > the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even
                                              > > > during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed
                                              > > > potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too
                                              > > > much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a
                                              > > > bit different.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Nikita
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >




                                              ________________________________
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • stephen_r1937
                                              Thanks, John; that s encouraging. But out here in the great Northwest, I haven t found these. If you recover the name, please post it here and at least we will
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Apr 20, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thanks, John; that's encouraging. But out here in the great Northwest, I haven't found these. If you recover the name, please post it here and at least we will know what to ask or look for.

                                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Billo, John" <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Dear Stephen and All,
                                                >
                                                > Don't give up on commercial pyrohy. There is a brand out there with potatoes that are fast-worthy except for oil. Alas, the name escapes me, but they come in a box of 12 and are separated like in a box of candy.
                                                >
                                                > Rdr. John
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stephen_r1937
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:11 AM
                                                > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [ustav] Re: Native Russian Polyphony
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Pelmenny in Siberia, vareniki elsewhere in Russia & in eastern Ukraine, pyrohy in western Ukraine & Carpathian Rus', pierogi in Poland--a gift from heaven for fasters. They are available commercially in the Mrs T brand (the wife, I suppose, of the A Team's Mr T), but alas Mrs T cannot be Orthodox--hers have potatoes and *cheese*. Pyrohy financed many a church in the Orthodox heartland of the lower 48, back before it became the Rust Belt of today; baby and their granddaughters made them every week, vast numbers were sold every Saturday, fasts were facilitated and parishes were supported financially. They are so user friendly that when you boil them (that's why they are called varenyky), they stay at the bottom of the pot until they are done and ready to be taken out; then they float to the top to be scooped out. I think this is an unrecognized miracle.
                                                >
                                                > They can be stuffed, as Nikita says, with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut, onions, and/or mushrooms; also with stewed prunes (dessert pyrohy), and outside of fasts with cottage cheese. They can be sauteed after they are boiled. A service of thanksgiving for them would be appropriate, if only we could agree on what to call them.
                                                >
                                                > Russian pirozhki and Latvian pîrâgi are similar in shape but made with leavened bread and baked, and usually stuffed with meat, so they are not part of the Lenten menu.
                                                >
                                                > Stephen
                                                >
                                                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > You are making you hungry.
                                                > >
                                                > > Lent has a way of doing that. I wonder why that is..... Personally, I just can't seem to get by on the St. Mary of Egypt Diet. :-)
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > Nikita Simmons wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly
                                                > > > > Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                                > > > > > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                                                > > > > > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                                                > > > > > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were
                                                > > > > developed
                                                > > > > > independently.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Theodora
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of
                                                > > > > Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are
                                                > > > > the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even
                                                > > > > during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed
                                                > > > > potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too
                                                > > > > much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a
                                                > > > > bit different.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Nikita
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > NES now offers free online billing! Save time, money and paper too!
                                                > Register today for NES E-bill at www.nespower.com.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • stephen_r1937
                                                Thanks, John; that s encouraging. But out here in the great Northwest, I haven t found these. If you recover the name, please post it here and at least we will
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Thanks, John; that's encouraging. But out here in the great Northwest, I haven't found these. If you recover the name, please post it here and at least we will know what to ask or look for.

                                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Billo, John" <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Stephen and All,
                                                  >
                                                  > Don't give up on commercial pyrohy. There is a brand out there with potatoes that are fast-worthy except for oil. Alas, the name escapes me, but they come in a box of 12 and are separated like in a box of candy.
                                                  >
                                                  > Rdr. John
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stephen_r1937
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:11 AM
                                                  > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [ustav] Re: Native Russian Polyphony
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Pelmenny in Siberia, vareniki elsewhere in Russia & in eastern Ukraine, pyrohy in western Ukraine & Carpathian Rus', pierogi in Poland--a gift from heaven for fasters. They are available commercially in the Mrs T brand (the wife, I suppose, of the A Team's Mr T), but alas Mrs T cannot be Orthodox--hers have potatoes and *cheese*. Pyrohy financed many a church in the Orthodox heartland of the lower 48, back before it became the Rust Belt of today; baby and their granddaughters made them every week, vast numbers were sold every Saturday, fasts were facilitated and parishes were supported financially. They are so user friendly that when you boil them (that's why they are called varenyky), they stay at the bottom of the pot until they are done and ready to be taken out; then they float to the top to be scooped out. I think this is an unrecognized miracle.
                                                  >
                                                  > They can be stuffed, as Nikita says, with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut, onions, and/or mushrooms; also with stewed prunes (dessert pyrohy), and outside of fasts with cottage cheese. They can be sauteed after they are boiled. A service of thanksgiving for them would be appropriate, if only we could agree on what to call them.
                                                  >
                                                  > Russian pirozhki and Latvian pîrâgi are similar in shape but made with leavened bread and baked, and usually stuffed with meat, so they are not part of the Lenten menu.
                                                  >
                                                  > Stephen
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > You are making you hungry.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Lent has a way of doing that. I wonder why that is..... Personally, I just can't seem to get by on the St. Mary of Egypt Diet. :-)
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Nikita Simmons wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, Molly
                                                  > > > > Grabowski <mookitty@> wrote:
                                                  > > > > > You know, sometimes, good ideas - like pasta- occur to more
                                                  > > > > > than one group of people who have no contact with each other. And like
                                                  > > > > > with pasta - maybe some recipes got shared, but the ideas were
                                                  > > > > developed
                                                  > > > > > independently.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Theodora
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Well, to prove your point, traditional Siberian Pelmeny (a staple of
                                                  > > > > Russian "fast food" cuisine, and very popular among Old Believers) are
                                                  > > > > the best form of pasta I've ever had. I never tire of them, even
                                                  > > > > during Lent when they are made without egg and stuffed with mashed
                                                  > > > > potato, mushrooms, onions or cabbage. Pelmeny are actually not too
                                                  > > > > much different from Polish pirogi, although the way they are made is a
                                                  > > > > bit different.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Nikita
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > NES now offers free online billing! Save time, money and paper too!
                                                  > Register today for NES E-bill at www.nespower.com.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
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