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Re: [ustav] Choir Cues: 20th Sunday after Pentecost, 20 October/2 November 2008

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  • Theophan Dort
    ... I was in a ROCOR parish for a number of years, and visited only a few other ROCOR parishes in the Southern part of the East Coast, and it was my impression
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2008
      > ... I am mostly interested in ROCOR, because that would be what
      > effects
      > what we sing on our kliros - Is one translation generally more
      > accepted
      > than another - I have heard the troparia in English in only one other
      > parish - in Hollywood. They used what we use - which is why I am
      > wondering if this is a geographic trend.
      >

      I was in a ROCOR parish for a number of years, and visited only a few
      other ROCOR parishes in the Southern part of the East Coast, and it
      was my impression that everybody used the Isaac Lambertsen
      translations from the St. John of Kronstadt Press Menaion. I was not
      aware of hearing anything else anywhere I went, and I assumed, perhaps
      incorrectly based on my limited experience, that this was the
      "official" English translation used in the ROCOR. If there are ROCOR
      parishes using OCA texts, I'm honestly astonished. Maybe it's less
      homogeneous than I had supposed.

      Maybe your priest would know whether your bishop has a preference, or
      would be willing to ask?

      Theophan
    • Fr. Basil Grisel
      The irony of the situation in the OCA was, and probably still remains, is that for all the posturing about bieng THE Orthodox Church in America we had little
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 1, 2008
        The irony of the situation in the OCA was, and probably still remains, is that for all the posturing about bieng "THE" Orthodox Church in America we had little to call upon for service texts aside from the Sunday materials. There were no published Matins texts, there were no menaion texts, no Pentecostarion -- we did have the Lenten Triodion but that was only due to the publishing in England. Is was a sad state of affairs that you had to scramble to find what you needed from someone who had done a translation, or borrow it.

        After a short time I began to build a liturgical library from Brother Isaac's published materials, so in my OCA parish we used Synod material. On one occasion I had a diocesan event taking place in my parish. We were using the Liberty materials, and after Vespers when I went to gather things up they all had disappeared. I recall many conversations with John Erickson, at the time in charge of SVS publishing of music, and he never was able to share anything for Matins. More than likely because matins was falling further and further from their liturgical cycle.

        I thank God for Isaac and his years of service to the English-speaking Church at large !

        Father Basil



        To: ustav@yahoogroups.comFrom: theophan@...: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 07:57:37 -0400Subject: Re: [ustav] Choir Cues: 20th Sunday after Pentecost, 20 October/2 November 2008




        > ... I am mostly interested in ROCOR, because that would be what > effects> what we sing on our kliros - Is one translation generally more > accepted> than another - I have heard the troparia in English in only one other> parish - in Hollywood. They used what we use - which is why I am> wondering if this is a geographic trend.>I was in a ROCOR parish for a number of years, and visited only a few other ROCOR parishes in the Southern part of the East Coast, and it was my impression that everybody used the Isaac Lambertsen translations from the St. John of Kronstadt Press Menaion. I was not aware of hearing anything else anywhere I went, and I assumed, perhaps incorrectly based on my limited experience, that this was the "official" English translation used in the ROCOR. If there are ROCOR parishes using OCA texts, I'm honestly astonished. Maybe it's less homogeneous than I had supposed.Maybe your priest would know whether your bishop has a preference, or would be willing to ask?Theophan






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • frjsilver
        Dear Friends -- While realizing that this is cold comfort, I d like to point out that neither of the two translations cited here is completely accurate. We
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 1, 2008
          Dear Friends --

          While realizing that this is cold comfort, I'd like to point out that neither of the two translations cited here is completely accurate. We need to establish some sort of cross-jurisdictional body of talented and trained people -- an ongoing conference or pool of translators, poets, editors and musicians -- to work out the logistics of producing maximally acceptable renderings of our scriptural and liturgical texts.

          It's not always the bad guy who wears the black hath. [[;-D33

          Peace and blessings to all.

          Monk James

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Molly Grabowski
          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:22 AM
          Subject: Re: [ustav] Choir Cues: 20th Sunday after Pentecost, 20 October/2 November 2008


          Meg -

          I was not referring to Thee/You, but instead to the actual translation
          of the troparia

          Here is the one from Fr. John's site:

          *Tone 3: *Let the heavens be glad; let earthly things rejoice; /
          for the Lord hath wrought might with His arm. /
          He hath trampled down death by death; /
          the first-born of the dead hath He become. /
          From the belly of Hades hath He delivered us //and Hath granted to the
          world great mercy.
          *
          Incidentally, this is how the troparion is translated on the Riggs
          "Angelfire" site.

          But this is what we sing - from the Soroka book:

          Let the heavens rejoice; let the earth be glad/
          for the Lord hath shown strength with his arm/
          He hath trampled down death by death/
          He hath become the first born of the dead/
          He hath delivered us from the depths of Hell/
          And hath granted the world great mercy.

          I understand that the OCA has official translations (the troparia and
          kondakia aren't posted for downloading) - but the Diocese of the South
          does things a bit differently

          http://dosoca.org/files/liturgical%20music/T3ResurTropariongrk.pdf

          But I am mostly interested in ROCOR, because that would be what effects
          what we sing on our kliros - Is one translation generally more accepted
          than another - I have heard the troparia in English in only one other
          parish - in Hollywood. They used what we use - which is why I am
          wondering if this is a geographic trend.

          Molly


          *





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • stephen_r1937
          ... that neither of the two translations cited here is completely accurate. We need to establish some sort of cross-jurisdictional body of talented and
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 1, 2008
            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "frjsilver" <frjsilver@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Friends --
            >
            > While realizing that this is cold comfort, I'd like to point out
            that neither of the two translations cited here is completely
            accurate. We need to establish some sort of cross-jurisdictional body
            of talented and trained people -- an ongoing conference or pool of
            translators, poets, editors and musicians -- to work out the
            logistics of producing maximally acceptable renderings of our
            scriptural and liturgical texts.
            >
            > It's not always the bad guy who wears the black hath. [[;-D33
            >
            > Peace and blessings to all.
            >
            > Monk James
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Molly Grabowski
            > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:22 AM
            > Subject: Re: [ustav] Choir Cues: 20th Sunday after Pentecost, 20
            October/2 November 2008
            >
            >
            > Meg -
            >
            > I was not referring to Thee/You, but instead to the actual
            translation
            > of the troparia
            >
            > Here is the one from Fr. John's site:
            >
            > *Tone 3: *Let the heavens be glad; let earthly things rejoice; /
            > for the Lord hath wrought might with His arm. /
            > He hath trampled down death by death; /
            > the first-born of the dead hath He become. /
            > From the belly of Hades hath He delivered us //and Hath granted to
            the
            > world great mercy.
            > *
            > Incidentally, this is how the troparion is translated on the Riggs
            > "Angelfire" site.

            Molly, this is the version that appears in the (revised) Jordanville
            Prayer Book. As the prayer book has the blessing of the ROCOR bishops,
            I expect it would be acceptable in any ROCOR parish.





            >
            > But this is what we sing - from the Soroka book:
            >
            > Let the heavens rejoice; let the earth be glad/
            > for the Lord hath shown strength with his arm/
            > He hath trampled down death by death/
            > He hath become the first born of the dead/
            > He hath delivered us from the depths of Hell/
            > And hath granted the world great mercy.

            This is the OCA version, which has been modernized slightly on their
            web site by changing "hath" to "has."

            Often enough, books for the choir are chosen for the music, and
            whatever translation is underlaid to it is what the choir sings.

            Stephen

            >
            > I understand that the OCA has official translations (the troparia and
            > kondakia aren't posted for downloading) - but the Diocese of the
            South
            > does things a bit differently
            >
            > http://dosoca.org/files/liturgical%20music/T3ResurTropariongrk.pdf
            >
            > But I am mostly interested in ROCOR, because that would be what
            effects
            > what we sing on our kliros - Is one translation generally more
            accepted
            > than another - I have heard the troparia in English in only one other
            > parish - in Hollywood. They used what we use - which is why I am
            > wondering if this is a geographic trend.
            >
            > Molly
            >
            >
            > *
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • misha.1947
            Dear Friends, After a break of a couple of years, I d like to add my $.02 to this thread: Use the ROCOR translations wherever possible. Those from the OCA are
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 17, 2008
              Dear Friends,

              After a break of a couple of years, I'd like to add my $.02 to this
              thread:

              Use the ROCOR translations wherever possible. Those from the OCA are
              usually too "modern" and those from Nassar (Antiochian) are just
              plain awful for singing. At least brother Isaac at the ROCOR Synod
              has a very good sense of poetry and prose clearly evident in his
              standard translations.

              I've heard the argument that brother Isaac's translations are
              translations from Church Slavonic rather than the "original" Greek
              but I don't buy into it. The Church Slavonic versions follow Russian
              practice and for Russian practice parishes there ought to be no other
              choice.

              Who can clearly define the OCA anyway? Is it Russian? Is it something
              else? I think the OCA is a mixture of several influences and for me
              this makes a confusing standard.

              Lastly I think "THE" OCA is an exclusionary term and not very kind to
              other jurisdictions.

              Off soap box now.

              Reader Michael Malloy
              Columbus OH

              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "frjsilver" <frjsilver@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Friends --
              > >
              > > While realizing that this is cold comfort, I'd like to point out
              > that neither of the two translations cited here is completely
              > accurate. We need to establish some sort of cross-jurisdictional
              body
              > of talented and trained people -- an ongoing conference or pool of
              > translators, poets, editors and musicians -- to work out the
              > logistics of producing maximally acceptable renderings of our
              > scriptural and liturgical texts.
              > >
              > > It's not always the bad guy who wears the black hath. [[;-D33
              > >
              > > Peace and blessings to all.
              > >
              > > Monk James
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Molly Grabowski
              > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:22 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [ustav] Choir Cues: 20th Sunday after Pentecost, 20
              > October/2 November 2008
              > >
              > >
              > > Meg -
              > >
              > > I was not referring to Thee/You, but instead to the actual
              > translation
              > > of the troparia
              > >
              > > Here is the one from Fr. John's site:
              > >
              > > *Tone 3: *Let the heavens be glad; let earthly things rejoice; /
              > > for the Lord hath wrought might with His arm. /
              > > He hath trampled down death by death; /
              > > the first-born of the dead hath He become. /
              > > From the belly of Hades hath He delivered us //and Hath granted
              to
              > the
              > > world great mercy.
              > > *
              > > Incidentally, this is how the troparion is translated on the
              Riggs
              > > "Angelfire" site.
              >
              > Molly, this is the version that appears in the (revised) Jordanville
              > Prayer Book. As the prayer book has the blessing of the ROCOR
              bishops,
              > I expect it would be acceptable in any ROCOR parish.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > > But this is what we sing - from the Soroka book:
              > >
              > > Let the heavens rejoice; let the earth be glad/
              > > for the Lord hath shown strength with his arm/
              > > He hath trampled down death by death/
              > > He hath become the first born of the dead/
              > > He hath delivered us from the depths of Hell/
              > > And hath granted the world great mercy.
              >
              > This is the OCA version, which has been modernized slightly on their
              > web site by changing "hath" to "has."
              >
              > Often enough, books for the choir are chosen for the music, and
              > whatever translation is underlaid to it is what the choir sings.
              >
              > Stephen
              >
              > >
              > > I understand that the OCA has official translations (the
              troparia and
              > > kondakia aren't posted for downloading) - but the Diocese of the
              > South
              > > does things a bit differently
              > >
              > > http://dosoca.org/files/liturgical%
              20music/T3ResurTropariongrk.pdf
              > >
              > > But I am mostly interested in ROCOR, because that would be what
              > effects
              > > what we sing on our kliros - Is one translation generally more
              > accepted
              > > than another - I have heard the troparia in English in only one
              other
              > > parish - in Hollywood. They used what we use - which is why I
              am
              > > wondering if this is a geographic trend.
              > >
              > > Molly
              > >
              > >
              > > *
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
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