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Znamenny Podobny, etc.

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  • Gabriel Sanchez
    Dear List, Nikita may be the one to provide an answer, but I suspect some others have a bit of knowledge in this area as well. As I have understood it from
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 3, 2008
      Dear List,

      Nikita may be the one to provide an answer, but I suspect some others have a
      bit of knowledge in this area as well. As I have understood it from various
      sources, the Russian Church developed a similar "system" to the Greek in
      that it borrowed special festal melodies to be used in serves for lesser
      feasts and Saint commemorations (i.e., Podobny). Though the translations
      into English sometimes differ a bit, the names of these melodies are, by and
      large, the same in both the Greek and the Slavic service books. What I am
      wondering is if anyone has studied what the relation is between the
      Byzantine and the Russian (Znamenny) melodies. E.g., "O House of
      Ephrata"--at least some of the Western sheet music I have read for it--seems
      to differ considerably between the "original" Byzantine melody and
      contemporary Slavic use. Was this morphing intentional or did it just
      "develop" that way over time? Again, if there are articles or books on this
      topic, I would be happy to do my own intellectual footwork. What I am
      looking for is a bit of pointing in the right direction.

      Also, as I understand it from reading some of Nikita's articles and a few
      other sources, there is no "generic" system of 8 Tones for troparia/kontakia
      in the pre-Nikonian Church as there is in the New Rite. But for sticheria,
      there does exist a "generic" system in the Old Rite (Small Znamenny). Is
      this in any sense related to the contemporary "generic" pattern still used
      in the Russian Church? Given the sometimes very complex harmonizations used
      today, it seems that the resemblance has been strained a bit. But then that
      leads back to the lingering question of where the "generic" 8 Tone melodies
      for troparia/kontakia came from, especially if they had no antecedent in the
      Old Rite. As I understood it, troparia/kontakia which were not a part of a
      feast day or special commemoration were oftentimes intoned, with only the
      last line being chanted by the choir. (I seem to recall Nikita saying
      somewhere that this format was circumvented by some, who opted instead to
      transfer the Small Znammeny melodies from the sticheria to the
      troparia/kontakia.)

      In XC,

      Gabriel


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matthew Nelson
      Gabriel, Comparing the Byzantine prosomoia and Slavic Podobny is really a matter of apples and oranges at this point. You mentioned the existance of a more
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 3, 2008
        Gabriel,

        Comparing the Byzantine prosomoia and Slavic Podobny is really a matter
        of apples and oranges at this point. You mentioned the existance of a
        more properly modal system before Nikon. This is true in terms of
        melodic behavior. However, it is not true for speaking of "modes"
        properly because it is all diatonic tuning.

        Byzantine music has four modes, different tunings really, that also
        associate with "stock" phrases. Modes five through eight are simply the
        plagal relationship (i.e. a fourth below). The tonic notes have changed
        over the centuries. Alexander Lingas of Capella Romana would be the
        person to ask about how they have morphed.

        Regarding the tunes (not tones) we sing today in the Russian church, a
        lot of it is regional melodies that become more popular in one place
        than another. That is why their is a distinction between Kievan and
        Court chants. The only melodies I've noticed that are similar in any way
        to the Greek standards (which have variants as well) are typically in
        third mode or plagal fourth (triphonos). This is probably because they
        are very diatonic/major tonalities.

        The big breakdown in modern practice between Byzantine and Slavic chant
        systems is whether the melody requires parsing of the text. The
        Byzantine and Znameny systems apply phrasing musically as phrasing
        occurs metrically using appropriate melodic motifs from the given tone.
        I can't speak for Znameny, but modulations within a song are very common
        in Byzantine chant, even prosomoia.

        Essentially, the Russian kliros chanting of today--obikhod--is simply
        recitative style singing utterly independent from the meter of the text.

        I would be curious to know when, if ever, did the Slavic practice drop
        special melodies for troparia and kontakia. "Joseph was Amazed," "Awed
        by the Beauty," and "The Soldiers Standing Guard" are some of my
        favorites. I have heard a few "Deva Dnec'" (Today the Virgin) pieces
        however.

        The way Christians pray in song is ultimately a living thing that grows
        and changes with time.

        In Christ,
        Chts. Matthew
        HVC, San Fran. CA
      • Jopi Harri
        ... Probably the earliest surviving Slavic source for O House of Ephrata is Tipografskij ustav, a ms. dated around 1100, the melody in which has been
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 3, 2008
          On 3.9.2008 18:06, Gabriel Sanchez wrote:

          > E.g., "O House of
          > Ephrata"--at least some of the Western sheet music I have read for it--seems
          > to differ considerably between the "original" Byzantine melody and
          > contemporary Slavic use. Was this morphing intentional or did it just
          > "develop" that way over time?

          Probably the earliest surviving Slavic source for "O House of
          Ephrata" is Tipografskij ustav, a ms. dated around 1100, the
          melody in which has been transcribed in Pozhidaeva 2007,
          Pevcheskie tradicii Drevnej Rusi. The melody is surprisingly
          similar to subsequent renditions, including the Valaam version,
          published in the Valaam Obikhod (1902 and 1909). However, some
          other Slavic sources read differently, which is no surprise
          because of the prevalence of oral transmission for common chants.

          What comes to an "original" Byzantine melody, where might that be
          found?

          > But for sticheria,
          > there does exist a "generic" system in the Old Rite (Small Znamenny). Is
          > this in any sense related to the contemporary "generic" pattern still used
          > in the Russian Church?

          Yes, there is clear relation between various versions of "small
          chant stichera". Even if there are melodic differences of varying
          calibre, the structures of the melodic schemata are similar in
          quite every source of these chants that I have inspected (and
          there are some thirty of them, including a wealth of publications
          and manuscripts of regional chants, in addition to the
          "referential" Synodal chantbooks). However, one must note that
          the standard versions of Znamenny Chant, codified in Old Rite
          sources, tend to be more florid than what is commonly sung even
          among Old Believers, whereas New Rite Russian chantbooks of some
          regional traditions, presumably collected from oral performance
          practice, can be even simpler than what we have for the Court Chant.

          One might try to approximate the complexity relations for common
          stichera melodies like this:

          complex: Znamenny (pre-Nikonian); Galician heirmologia
          | Synodal (Znamenny, Kievan)
          | Old Rite napevki; Moscow Chant; Valaam Chant
          | Court Chant; Kiev-Pechersk Lavra Chant (harmonized!)
          simple: certain regional chants (Russian & Little Russian)

          (The chart is a coarse generalization and isn't intended to
          represent the absolute truth.)

          By the way, no ms. sources for the generic variety of stichera
          melodies seem to exist in Russia prior to 1600 (I don't know the
          situation for South-Western Rus). While this doesn't imply that
          the phrasal melodies would have been invented only in 1600, it is
          difficult to prove or find out whether they have been around
          since the origins of Slavic chant or did they form later. If they
          formed later, it remains to be answered how stichera were sung
          from books without notation prior to 1600.

          It may even be that the Znamenny stichera in pre-1550 sources are
          written-out renditions of some kind of a generic pattern,
          possibly not a regular one (they are simpler than what is now
          known as Znamenny Chant), but investigating this is difficult and
          laborious for many reasons, one being that the notation lacks
          means to express melodic movement with precision. Thus,
          transcriptions would always be more or less speculative, as also
          the analytical conclusions.

          > Given the sometimes very complex harmonizations used
          > today, it seems that the resemblance has been strained a bit.

          Ordinary harmonizations of chant aren't complex but follow
          specific logical and schematic guidelines. The situation is
          different for such harmonizations that have been made with high
          (Western) artistic standards in mind (like what can be found in
          the Vigils of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff).

          > But then that
          > leads back to the lingering question of where the "generic" 8 Tone melodies
          > for troparia/kontakia came from, especially if they had no antecedent in the
          > Old Rite.

          In Russia, some of them represent the Greek Chant (or
          generalized/abbreviated forms of it), which was imported to
          Moscow from Constantinople in 1650s. Some others are simply sung
          to versions of sticheron chants (Kievan or Znamenny). In
          South-Western Rus these were to be sung mostly to Bulgarian Chant
          (the origins of which remain unclear), which was applied to a
          lesser extent in Russia also: the Tone 6 troparion melody of
          Bakhmetev represents Bulgarian Chant (by way of SW influence in
          Court Chapel). Some other varieties seem to be unidentifiable
          regional chants.

          - Jopi Harri
        • Jopi Harri
          ... It seems likely that either the drop took place in a quite distant past, or that these melodies were never properly established. The few kondakarian mss.
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 3, 2008
            On 3.9.2008 20:31, Matthew Nelson wrote:

            > I would be curious to know when, if ever, did the Slavic practice drop
            > special melodies for troparia and kontakia. "Joseph was Amazed," "Awed
            > by the Beauty," and "The Soldiers Standing Guard" are some of my
            > favorites. I have heard a few "Deva Dnec'" (Today the Virgin) pieces
            > however.

            It seems likely that either the drop took place in a quite
            distant past, or that these melodies were never properly
            established. The few kondakarian mss. have music for some
            kontakia-prosomoia/automela, but my impression is that the
            Znamenny repertory has never had them.

            - Jopi Harri
          • Gabriel Sanchez
            Thank you to everyone who replied. Sticking to the subject of the Small Znamenny melodies for stichera and its relationship to the current generic melodies
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 3, 2008
              Thank you to everyone who replied.

              Sticking to the subject of the Small Znamenny melodies for stichera and its
              relationship to the current "generic" melodies used still in the Russian
              Church, have the Small Znamenny melodies been transcribed into Western
              notation with English text anywhere? I only have them in Slavonic, but I
              have noticed some differences between them. I'm curious to compare.

              As for the tropar/kontaks, anyone who has looked at the back of the
              Horologion translated by Church of the Nativity will notice that well over
              half (maybe even two-thirds) are podobny. I had hoped that Church of the
              Nativity would eventually publish the music they use for these melodies
              (similar to the appendix to the Sunday Octoechos). A man can dream...

              In XC,

              Gabriel

              On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:

              > On 3.9.2008 20:31, Matthew Nelson wrote:
              >
              > > I would be curious to know when, if ever, did the Slavic practice drop
              > > special melodies for troparia and kontakia. "Joseph was Amazed," "Awed
              > > by the Beauty," and "The Soldiers Standing Guard" are some of my
              > > favorites. I have heard a few "Deva Dnec'" (Today the Virgin) pieces
              > > however.
              >
              > It seems likely that either the drop took place in a quite
              > distant past, or that these melodies were never properly
              > established. The few kondakarian mss. have music for some
              > kontakia-prosomoia/automela, but my impression is that the
              > Znamenny repertory has never had them.
              >
              > - Jopi Harri
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • stephen_r1937
              The book by Grigor ev, published in Riga, is the best thing on both the Lesser Znamenny samoglasen melodies for stichera and the Znamenny podobny for stichera.
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 4, 2008
                The book by Grigor'ev, published in Riga, is the best thing on both
                the Lesser Znamenny samoglasen melodies for stichera and the Znamenny
                podobny for stichera. It is in Russian with the liturgical texts in
                Slavonic, and the musical notation is exclusively neumatic, but it is
                the best exposition around.

                The Resurrectional Troparia and some festal troparia have melodies in
                the Znamenny chant, little used even among Old Believers, let alone
                in the Russian New Rite or anywhere else. I don't think there are any
                podobny per se, although some of the texts provided with these
                melodies are samopodobny (automela). Otherwise, as Jopi says, the
                Znamenny tradition does not provide for troparia, although the Old-
                Rite books scrupulously retain the rubrics, which cannot be said of
                most English-language publications these days.

                We are still in need of systematic comparison of Znamenny melodies
                wiht their Byzantine counterparts. Among the heirmœ we can find
                similarities that can hardly be accidental; how extensive these are,
                and in which parts of the repertory they are to be found, is a
                research project awaiting investigators. This will be a large
                project, requiring a study of both modern printed collections and old
                manuscripts in both Greek and Slavonic.

                The practice of reading (in the liturgical recitative) the texts of
                troparia and kontakia until the last phrase of the text is reached,
                and singing that phrase to the prokeimenon melody of the appropriate
                mode, is an old usage, found not only among Old Believers but also in
                Khoma's Prostopinije of 1930.

                The chant tradition of SW Rus' has melodies for a number of troparia
                prosomœa in the Lesser Bulgarian Chant. The Russian Greek Chant also
                has such melodies, but either they have fallen out of use or perhaps
                were never extensively employed, and AFAIK are found only in rare
                mss.

                In respect of podobny among the stichera, sampling the standard
                repertory suggests that there are three identifiable families: a
                Znamenny family, a Kievan family, and a Central Russian or Optina
                family. I hope to have more to report on this in the future.

                Stephen

                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel Sanchez"
                <gabriel.s.sanchez@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear List,
                >
                > Nikita may be the one to provide an answer, but I suspect some
                others have a
                > bit of knowledge in this area as well. As I have understood it
                from various
                > sources, the Russian Church developed a similar "system" to the
                Greek in
                > that it borrowed special festal melodies to be used in serves for
                lesser
                > feasts and Saint commemorations (i.e., Podobny). Though the
                translations
                > into English sometimes differ a bit, the names of these melodies
                are, by and
                > large, the same in both the Greek and the Slavic service books.
                What I am
                > wondering is if anyone has studied what the relation is between the
                > Byzantine and the Russian (Znamenny) melodies. E.g., "O House of
                > Ephrata"--at least some of the Western sheet music I have read for
                it--seems
                > to differ considerably between the "original" Byzantine melody and
                > contemporary Slavic use. Was this morphing intentional or did it
                just
                > "develop" that way over time? Again, if there are articles or
                books on this
                > topic, I would be happy to do my own intellectual footwork. What I
                am
                > looking for is a bit of pointing in the right direction.
                >
                > Also, as I understand it from reading some of Nikita's articles and
                a few
                > other sources, there is no "generic" system of 8 Tones for
                troparia/kontakia
                > in the pre-Nikonian Church as there is in the New Rite. But for
                sticheria,
                > there does exist a "generic" system in the Old Rite (Small
                Znamenny). Is
                > this in any sense related to the contemporary "generic" pattern
                still used
                > in the Russian Church? Given the sometimes very complex
                harmonizations used
                > today, it seems that the resemblance has been strained a bit. But
                then that
                > leads back to the lingering question of where the "generic" 8 Tone
                melodies
                > for troparia/kontakia came from, especially if they had no
                antecedent in the
                > Old Rite. As I understood it, troparia/kontakia which were not a
                part of a
                > feast day or special commemoration were oftentimes intoned, with
                only the
                > last line being chanted by the choir. (I seem to recall Nikita
                saying
                > somewhere that this format was circumvented by some, who opted
                instead to
                > transfer the Small Znammeny melodies from the sticheria to the
                > troparia/kontakia.)
                >
                > In XC,
                >
                > Gabriel
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • stephen_r1937
                When will we ever stop writing Slavic when what we mean is Great- Russian ? It depends on which Slavs you mean. To find such things in the chant systems of
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 4, 2008
                  When will we ever stop writing "Slavic" when what we mean is "Great-
                  Russian"?

                  It depends on which Slavs you mean. To find such things in the chant
                  systems of historic Muscovy, you would probably have to go back to the
                  half-dozen or so surviving Kondakaria; the Kondakarian chant vanished
                  centuries ago, unless parts of it are preserved (as some have
                  suggested) in the Demestvenny or Put Chant. But you may also find some
                  troparia prosomœa in mss of the Russian Greek Chant (not in the
                  standard printed collections).

                  On the other hand, you will find a number of them, including all that
                  you have mentioned, in the chant books of SW Rus'; these belong to the
                  Lesser "Bulgarian" Chant, which was used extensively in SW Rus' and
                  from which a handful of melodies entered Great-Russian practice,
                  including the well-known "Deva dnes'" & "Blahoobraznyi Iosif." In
                  Russian usage, however, these function not really as automela but as
                  seasonal pieces for Nativity and Holy Saturday respectively. The sung
                  octoechos of contemporary Russian practice is a meager thing indeed
                  compared to the traditions of the South-West.

                  And in addition we have the South Slavic world. I have not seen a
                  podobnik of the Serbian Pojanje but would very much like to; the
                  Bulgarians of course have the (post-)Byzantine repertory.

                  In America, we can safely say of those Eastern Slavs who form the
                  demographic backbone of all the historically Russian jurisdictions that
                  they dropped special melodies for troparia and kontakia when the chant
                  systems they brought with them from Europe were supplanted by the
                  practice of St Petersburg, which their ancestors had never heard or
                  heard of. The way Christians pray in song surely changes with time, and
                  sometimes grows, but also sometimes diminishes.

                  Stephen

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Nelson <matthew@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  > I would be curious to know when, if ever, did the Slavic practice
                  drop
                  > special melodies for troparia and kontakia. "Joseph was
                  Amazed," "Awed
                  > by the Beauty," and "The Soldiers Standing Guard" are some of my
                  > favorites. I have heard a few "Deva Dnec'" (Today the Virgin) pieces
                  > however.
                  >
                  > The way Christians pray in song is ultimately a living thing that
                  grows
                  > and changes with time.
                • frjsilver
                  Dear Friends -- While I m completely unqualified to respond to Gabriel Sanchez s concerns, I d add one of my own. A few days ago, a priest asked me about a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 7, 2008
                    Dear Friends --

                    While I'm completely unqualified to respond to Gabriel Sanchez's concerns, I'd add one of my own.

                    A few days ago, a priest asked me about a Russian musical setting for _sv&te tikhiy_ which referenced a _podobn61y_ or _samoglasn61y_ melody titled _den' prosh...' -- something about the 'next day', AFAIK.

                    My guess was that somehow a rubric had been confused with a musical direction, since -- as far as I know -- this hymn (if sung at all) is sung in Tone/Mode 2 or Tone 5/Plagal Mode 2.

                    Is this hymn ever assigned to a 'special melody' format?

                    I'd be very grateful for your insights.

                    Peace and blessings to all.

                    Monk James

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Gabriel Sanchez
                    To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:06 AM
                    Subject: [ustav] Znamenny Podobny, etc.


                    Dear List,

                    Nikita may be the one to provide an answer, but I suspect some others have a
                    bit of knowledge in this area as well. As I have understood it from various
                    sources, the Russian Church developed a similar "system" to the Greek in
                    that it borrowed special festal melodies to be used in serves for lesser
                    feasts and Saint commemorations (i.e., Podobny). Though the translations
                    into English sometimes differ a bit, the names of these melodies are, by and
                    large, the same in both the Greek and the Slavic service books. What I am
                    wondering is if anyone has studied what the relation is between the
                    Byzantine and the Russian (Znamenny) melodies. E.g., "O House of
                    Ephrata"--at least some of the Western sheet music I have read for it--seems
                    to differ considerably between the "original" Byzantine melody and
                    contemporary Slavic use. Was this morphing intentional or did it just
                    "develop" that way over time? Again, if there are articles or books on this
                    topic, I would be happy to do my own intellectual footwork. What I am
                    looking for is a bit of pointing in the right direction.

                    Also, as I understand it from reading some of Nikita's articles and a few
                    other sources, there is no "generic" system of 8 Tones for troparia/kontakia
                    in the pre-Nikonian Church as there is in the New Rite. But for sticheria,
                    there does exist a "generic" system in the Old Rite (Small Znamenny). Is
                    this in any sense related to the contemporary "generic" pattern still used
                    in the Russian Church? Given the sometimes very complex harmonizations used
                    today, it seems that the resemblance has been strained a bit. But then that
                    leads back to the lingering question of where the "generic" 8 Tone melodies
                    for troparia/kontakia came from, especially if they had no antecedent in the
                    Old Rite. As I understood it, troparia/kontakia which were not a part of a
                    feast day or special commemoration were oftentimes intoned, with only the
                    last line being chanted by the choir. (I seem to recall Nikita saying
                    somewhere that this format was circumvented by some, who opted instead to
                    transfer the Small Znammeny melodies from the sticheria to the
                    troparia/kontakia.)

                    In XC,

                    Gabriel

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Carol Surgant
                    ... A few days ago, a priest asked me about a Russian musical setting for _sv&te tikhiy_ which referenced a _podobn61y_ or _samoglasn61y_ melody titled _den
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 7, 2008
                      --- On Sun, 9/7/08, frjsilver <frjsilver@...> wrote:
                      A few days ago, a priest asked me about a Russian musical setting for _sv&te tikhiy_ which referenced a _podobn61y_ or _samoglasn61y_ melody titled _den' prosh...' -- something about the 'next day', AFAIK.


                      This is the melody "The day being past..." from compline, not a typical podoben melody.  Yes, you would not expect a podoben/prosomion for this hymn, but this arrangement has been around for a while --It has been published in Fr. Dimitry Bolgarsky's All-night Vigil book ( in Church Slavonic. -- I believe it was attributed to Prophet Elijah Skete on Mt. Athos.Carol Surgant


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • stephen_r1937
                      Carol and all, I take it that this is the troparion _Den prished_. It illustrates a phenomenon that has yet to be investigated in any systematic. What we have
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 8, 2008
                        Carol and all,

                        I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_. It illustrates a
                        phenomenon that has yet to be investigated in any systematic. What we
                        have here is a set of three troparia, metrical and literary
                        contrafacts (I arbitrarily take the first of the series as the
                        original, the prototype, and the following two as contrafacts, just
                        for convenience) that are clearly intended to be sung to the same
                        melody. This is the same set of relations that defines a samopodoben
                        (automelon) and its podobny (prosomoea); yet they are never included
                        in any list of podobny. This is not at all a unique case; browsing
                        through the liturgical books (best done in Greek, but the obvious
                        cases will be obvious in Slavonic or, unless the translator has
                        arbitrarily disguised them, in English) will reveal various other
                        cases of such "undocumented podobny." Since Svite tikhii is not
                        assigned to any tone, it is fair game for setting to various
                        melodies, so why not this one? Greek churches nowadays, most of them,
                        sing a melody composed by Sakellarides in the 20th century, even on
                        Mt Athos and at the Patriarchate of Constantinople, so melodic
                        innovation with this ancient hymn is widespread.

                        The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                        for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                        that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case here,
                        or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as to
                        why the expected rubric is missing?

                        Some editions of the private prayers before retiring have these three
                        troparia where others have the "Have mercy on us" set (which does not
                        appear to be an instance of contrafaction).

                        Stephen


                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Carol Surgant <casurgant@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Sun, 9/7/08, frjsilver <frjsilver@...> wrote:
                        > A few days ago, a priest asked me about a Russian musical setting
                        for _sv&te tikhiy_ which referenced a _podobn61y_ or _samoglasn61y_
                        melody titled _den' prosh...' -- something about the 'next day',
                        AFAIK.
                        >
                        >
                        > This is the melody "The day being past..." from compline, not a
                        typical podoben melody.  Yes, you would not expect a
                        podoben/prosomion for this hymn, but this arrangement has been around
                        for a while --It has been published in Fr. Dimitry Bolgarsky's All-
                        night Vigil book ( in Church Slavonic. -- I believe it was attributed
                        to Prophet Elijah Skete on Mt. Athos.Carol Surgant
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Carol Surgant
                        ... Carol and all, I take it that this is the troparion _Den prished_.  cas:  Yes, exactly. The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 8, 2008
                          --- On Mon, 9/8/08, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:






                          Carol and all,

                          I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_.  <snip>
                          cas:  Yes, exactly.

                          The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                          for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                          that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case here,
                          or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as to
                          why the expected rubric is missing?
                           
                          cas:  I have no clue as to your question about the rubric, however, in the English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at Jordanville, the designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned to this section of hymns: "The day being past... (Dyen prished...) so one can assume that these are sung, though no tone is designated. To me absence of a tone designation means one of 2 things, either it is a commonly known melody (often Samopodoben) or else it is read or chanted in a plain style.  I have heard these troparia sung to a plain chant (similar to the cantillation of a solo reader), the same style is also used for "The bodiless nature of the Cherubim..." which follows in the compline service.
                          "The day being past..." in the plain chant:
                          http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompl_TheDay_Plain_011808.pdf
                           
                          "The day being past..." in the Prophet Elijah Skete melody:
                          http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompline_TheDay_011206.pdf


                           

                           
                           
                          .














                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • frjsilver
                          My thanks to Carol and Stephen for their helpful insights. Monk James (who s never heard The Day Is Past sung anyplace ever -- and maybe should get out
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                            My thanks to Carol and Stephen for their helpful insights.

                            Monk James (who's never heard 'The Day Is Past' sung anyplace ever -- and maybe should get out more)


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Carol Surgant
                            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:03 PM
                            Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Znamenny Podobny, etc.




                            --- On Mon, 9/8/08, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:

                            Carol and all,

                            I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_. <snip>
                            cas: Yes, exactly.

                            The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                            for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                            that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case here,
                            or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as to
                            why the expected rubric is missing?

                            cas: I have no clue as to your question about the rubric, however, in the English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at Jordanville, the designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned to this section of hymns: "The day being past... (Dyen prished...) so one can assume that these are sung, though no tone is designated. To me absence of a tone designation means one of 2 things, either it is a commonly known melody (often Samopodoben) or else it is read or chanted in a plain style. I have heard these troparia sung to a plain chant (similar to the cantillation of a solo reader), the same style is also used for "The bodiless nature of the Cherubim..." which follows in the compline service.
                            "The day being past..." in the plain chant:
                            http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompl_TheDay_Plain_011808.pdf

                            "The day being past..." in the Prophet Elijah Skete melody:
                            http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompline_TheDay_011206.pdf





                            .


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dn. Sergius Miller
                            ... in the English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at Jordanville, the designations 1st Choir , 2nd Choir are assigned to this section of hymns: The
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Carol Surgant <casurgant@...> wrote:
                              >  
                              > cas:  I have no clue as to your question about the rubric, however,
                              in the English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at Jordanville,
                              the designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned to this
                              section of hymns: "The day being past... (Dyen prished...) so one can
                              assume that these are sung, though no tone is designated. To me
                              absence of a tone designation means one of 2 things, either it is a
                              commonly known melody (often Samopodoben) or else it is read or
                              chanted in a plain style.  I have heard these troparia sung to a
                              plain chant (similar to the cantillation of a solo reader), the same
                              style is also used for "The bodiless nature of the Cherubim..." which
                              follows in the compline service.


                              Dear Carol,

                              I've also heard the prayers of the "Usual ending,", viz., "Holy God"
                              through the Lord's Prayer sung to this sort of melody by the choir et
                              al. during Great Vespers.

                              Dn. Sergius
                            • psomalis@hol.gr
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                                Quoting frjsilver <frjsilver@...>:

                                > My thanks to Carol and Stephen for their helpful insights.
                                >
                                > Monk James (who's never heard 'The Day Is Past' sung anyplace ever
                                > -- and maybe should get out more)
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Carol Surgant
                                > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:03 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Znamenny Podobny, etc.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- On Mon, 9/8/08, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Carol and all,
                                >
                                > I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_. <snip>
                                > cas: Yes, exactly.
                                >
                                > The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                                > for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                                > that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case here,
                                > or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as to
                                > why the expected rubric is missing?
                                >
                                > cas: I have no clue as to your question about the rubric,
                                > however, in the English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at
                                > Jordanville, the designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned
                                > to this section of hymns: "The day being past... (Dyen prished...)
                                > so one can assume that these are sung, though no tone is designated.
                                > To me absence of a tone designation means one of 2 things, either
                                > it is a commonly known melody (often Samopodoben) or else it is
                                > read or chanted in a plain style. I have heard these troparia sung
                                > to a plain chant (similar to the cantillation of a solo reader),
                                > the same style is also used for "The bodiless nature of the
                                > Cherubim..." which follows in the compline service.
                                > "The day being past..." in the plain chant:
                                >
                                > http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompl_TheDay_Plain_011808.pdf
                                >
                                > "The day being past..." in the Prophet Elijah Skete melody:
                                >
                                > http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompline_TheDay_011206.pdf
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > .
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                              • psomalis@hol.gr
                                The Greek Horologion gives modes for these troparia The Day Is Past (mode II). But I never heard them chanted. Panagiotis
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                                  The Greek Horologion gives modes for these troparia 'The Day Is
                                  Past'(mode II). But I never heard them chanted.
                                  Panagiotis


                                  Quoting frjsilver <frjsilver@...>:

                                  > My thanks to Carol and Stephen for their helpful insights.
                                  >
                                  > Monk James (who's never heard 'The Day Is Past' sung anyplace ever
                                  > -- and maybe should get out more)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Carol Surgant
                                  > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:03 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Znamenny Podobny, etc.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 9/8/08, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Carol and all,
                                  >
                                  > I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_. <snip>
                                  > cas: Yes, exactly.
                                  >
                                  > The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                                  > for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                                  > that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case here,
                                  > or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as to
                                  > why the expected rubric is missing?
                                  >
                                  > cas: I have no clue as to your question about the rubric,
                                  > however, in the English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at
                                  > Jordanville, the designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned
                                  > to this section of hymns: "The day being past... (Dyen prished...)
                                  > so one can assume that these are sung, though no tone is designated.
                                  > To me absence of a tone designation means one of 2 things, either
                                  > it is a commonly known melody (often Samopodoben) or else it is
                                  > read or chanted in a plain style. I have heard these troparia sung
                                  > to a plain chant (similar to the cantillation of a solo reader),
                                  > the same style is also used for "The bodiless nature of the
                                  > Cherubim..." which follows in the compline service.
                                  > "The day being past..." in the plain chant:
                                  >
                                  > http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompl_TheDay_Plain_011808.pdf
                                  >
                                  > "The day being past..." in the Prophet Elijah Skete melody:
                                  >
                                  > http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompline_TheDay_011206.pdf
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Kyril Jenner
                                  I have a setting of the Troparia at Great Compline to what is described as a Solovetski melody in the source (Slavonic) from which I took them. I think it
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                                    I have a setting of the Troparia at Great Compline to what is described as a
                                    "Solovetski melody" in the source (Slavonic) from which I took them. I
                                    think it was this source which also provided a setting of the verse that
                                    follows these Troparia ("With songs unceasing") which cycles through all 8
                                    Tones. We have only used these melodies for feast days (Christmas Vigil,
                                    etc.), using simple chant for the weekdays in the Great Fast.

                                    If anyone wants copies please let me know and I will send you a PDF.

                                    Archimandrite Kyril Jenner

                                    http://www.mynachdy-sant-elias.org.uk


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Carol Surgant" <casurgant@...>
                                    To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 4:03 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Znamenny Podobny, etc.




                                    --- On Mon, 9/8/08, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:






                                    Carol and all,

                                    I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_. <snip>
                                    cas: Yes, exactly.

                                    The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                                    for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                                    that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case here,
                                    or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as to
                                    why the expected rubric is missing?

                                    cas: I have no clue as to your question about the rubric, however, in the
                                    English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at Jordanville, the
                                    designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned to this section of hymns:
                                    "The day being past... (Dyen prished...) so one can assume that these are
                                    sung, though no tone is designated. To me absence of a tone designation
                                    means one of 2 things, either it is a commonly known melody (often
                                    Samopodoben) or else it is read or chanted in a plain style. I have heard
                                    these troparia sung to a plain chant (similar to the cantillation of a solo
                                    reader), the same style is also used for "The bodiless nature of the
                                    Cherubim..." which follows in the compline service.
                                    "The day being past..." in the plain chant:
                                    http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompl_TheDay_Plain_011808.pdf

                                    "The day being past..." in the Prophet Elijah Skete melody:
                                    http://music.russianorthodox-stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompline_TheDay_011206.pdf






                                    .














                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                    ------------------------------------


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                                  • James Morgan
                                    Please send. I ll add them to the library here. Rdr.James olympia WA USA ... I have a setting of the Troparia at Great Compline to what is described as a
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                                      Please send.
                                      I'll add them to the library here.

                                      Rdr.James
                                      olympia WA USA

                                      ---"Kyril Jenner" wrote:

                                      I have a setting of the Troparia at Great Compline to what is
                                      described as a > "Solovetski melody" in the source (Slavonic) from
                                      which I took them. I think it was this source which also provided a
                                      setting of the verse that follows these Troparia ("With songs
                                      unceasing") which cycles through all 8 Tones. We have only used these
                                      melodies for feast days (Christmas Vigil, etc.), using simple chant
                                      for the weekdays in the Great Fast.

                                      If anyone wants copies please let me know and I will send you a PDF.

                                      Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                                    • stephen_r1937
                                      Father Kyrill, Please send the PDF. Thank you. Stephen ... described as a ... them. I ... that ... through all 8 ... Vigil, ... here, ... to ... in the ...
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Sep 9, 2008
                                        Father Kyrill,

                                        Please send the PDF. Thank you.

                                        Stephen

                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kyril Jenner" <kyril@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I have a setting of the Troparia at Great Compline to what is
                                        described as a
                                        > "Solovetski melody" in the source (Slavonic) from which I took
                                        them. I
                                        > think it was this source which also provided a setting of the verse
                                        that
                                        > follows these Troparia ("With songs unceasing") which cycles
                                        through all 8
                                        > Tones. We have only used these melodies for feast days (Christmas
                                        Vigil,
                                        > etc.), using simple chant for the weekdays in the Great Fast.
                                        >
                                        > If anyone wants copies please let me know and I will send you a PDF.
                                        >
                                        > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mynachdy-sant-elias.org.uk
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Carol Surgant" <casurgant@...>
                                        > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 4:03 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Znamenny Podobny, etc.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- On Mon, 9/8/08, stephen_r1937 <stephen_r1937@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Carol and all,
                                        >
                                        > I take it that this is the troparion _Den' prished_. <snip>
                                        > cas: Yes, exactly.
                                        >
                                        > The Slavonic Horologion I am now looking at does not specify a tone
                                        > for these troparia. While absence of such a rubric sometimes means
                                        > that the text is read rather than sung, that cannot be the case
                                        here,
                                        > or there would be no melody to adapt to Svite tikhii; any ideas as
                                        to
                                        > why the expected rubric is missing?
                                        >
                                        > cas: I have no clue as to your question about the rubric, however,
                                        in the
                                        > English Horologion published by Monk Laurence at Jordanville, the
                                        > designations "1st Choir", "2nd Choir" are assigned to this section
                                        of hymns:
                                        > "The day being past... (Dyen prished...) so one can assume that
                                        these are
                                        > sung, though no tone is designated. To me absence of a tone
                                        designation
                                        > means one of 2 things, either it is a commonly known melody (often
                                        > Samopodoben) or else it is read or chanted in a plain style. I have
                                        heard
                                        > these troparia sung to a plain chant (similar to the cantillation
                                        of a solo
                                        > reader), the same style is also used for "The bodiless nature of
                                        the
                                        > Cherubim..." which follows in the compline service.
                                        > "The day being past..." in the plain chant:
                                        > http://music.russianorthodox-
                                        stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompl_TheDay_Plain_011808.pdf
                                        >
                                        > "The day being past..." in the Prophet Elijah Skete melody:
                                        > http://music.russianorthodox-
                                        stl.org/music/GrCompline/GrCompline_TheDay_011206.pdf
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > .
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
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