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RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of devotion)

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  • James Morgan
    I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not said? Memory is
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 4 10:36 AM
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      I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
      lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not said?
      Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is part
      of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they are
      ever used outside Great Lent.
      I think Peter or Daniel or Dn. Sergius would know.
      I am probably all mixed up on this. Anyway, Lent is over for this year.
      Maybe next time I'll get it right....ha!
      Rdr. James

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      stephen_r1937
      Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:25 AM
      To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of devotion)

      Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
      Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
      why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
      pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.

      Stephen

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
      >
      > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
      > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
      > Rdr. James
      > Olympia, WA
    • Deacon Sergius Miller
      ... wrote: Dear Stephen, In the fast of the Theotokos, the Prayer of St. Ephraim can be done on August 3 & 4, if the Alleluia (fasting service without Liturgy)
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 4 10:48 AM
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        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
        wrote:

        Dear Stephen,

        In the fast of the Theotokos, the Prayer of St. Ephraim can be done
        on August 3 & 4, if the Alleluia (fasting service without Liturgy) is
        observed on those days.

        In the Nativity & Apostles fasts the days on which the Alleluia
        services can be done are indicated in the Typikon and in the Holy
        Transfiguration Horologion; I'll look them up when I have a chance &
        send you the list.

        In XC,
        Dn. Sergius



        >
        > Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
        > Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
        > why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
        > pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.
        >
        > Stephen
        >
        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13,
        Vespers on
        > > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
        > > Rdr. James
        > > Olympia, WA
        > >
        > > From: stephen_r1937
        > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
        > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion
        > >
        > > A very useful survey!
        > >
        > > Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the
        books
        > > expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also
        known
        > > as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
        > > find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
        > > Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily
        prayers
        > > considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
        > > first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
        > > Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy
        on
        > > Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough
        discussion:
        > > does anyone know where to find such a thing?
        > >
        > > Stephen
        > >
        >
      • Anna Bennett
        ... referring ... They are somewhat dissimilar, oweing to their backgrounds one would assume. The arrangement of prayer is the Old Believer s prayer book (for
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 4 10:50 AM
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          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:

          > I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
          referring
          > to, but then I got confused.

          They are somewhat dissimilar, oweing to their backgrounds one would
          assume. The arrangement of prayer is the Old Believer's prayer book (for
          Morning prayers) is:

          The Entrance Bows:

          The Prayer of the Publican

          It is Truly Meet…

          Glory…

          Lord have mercy…

          Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, through the prayers…

          Morning Prayers I

          Through the prayers…

          Glory. (x3)

          The Prayer of St. Marcarius the Great (same as Prayer I,
          Jordanville)

          The Prayer to the Holy Spirit

          The Trisagion

          The Lord's Prayer

          Lord have mercy (x12)

          Having arisen from sleep…(roughly corresponds to
          Troparia to the Holy Trinity, Jordanville)

          Come let us worship…

          Psalm 50

          Confession

          Angelic Salutation

          Kontakion from the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos (x3)

          Most Holy Lady…

          Invincible and divine power of the precious and life-giving cross…

          Prayers for Intercession by Heavenly powers, Guardian angel, and Holy
          ones

          O Lord I have sinned…

          Jesus Prayer

          Most Holy Trinity…

          Prayers for Intercession by the chief Apostles, prophets, forerunner,
          St. Nicholas, and all saints.

          Intercessions for all the needs



          The Prayer of St. Ephraim



          Morning Prayers II

          St. Isaac the Syrian

          St. Stephen of the Thebaid

          St. John Chrysostom

          The Fourth Prayer (unattributed)

          The blessing with your baptism cross

          Reading of Canon or Akathist, if desired

          Glory

          Lord have mercy (x3)

          Dismissal

          Prayer for Forgiveness

          O Lord Who lovest mankind…

          Remembrances

          The Departure Bows (same as the Entrance Bows)

          All my hope I place in thee…

          God be merciful…



          Now, the Jordanville arrangement:



          Prayer of the Publican

          The Beginning Prayer

          Troparia to the Holy Trinity

          Prayer of St. Basil the Great to the Holy Trinity

          O come let us worship…

          Psalm 50

          Creed

          Prayer I of St. Marcarius the Great

          Prayer II of the same saint

          Prayer III of the same saint

          Prayer IV of the same saint

          Prayer V of St. Basil

          Prayer VI likewise of St Basil

          Prayer VII to the Theotokos (I sing of Thy grace…)

          Prayer VIII to our Lord Jesus Christ

          Prayer XIX to the Holy Guardian Angel

          Prayer X to the Theotokos (O my most holy Lady…)

          Prayer for the salvation of Russia

          Prayer for the Invocation of the Saint whose Name we bear

          Song to the Theotokos (corresponds to the Angelic Salutation)

          Troparion to the Cross

          Commemoration for the Living

          Commemoration for the Departed

          Final Prayer

          It is truly meet…

          Glory.

          Lord have mercy. (x3)

          O Lord, bless

          Dismissal





          While both prayer books cover all the general bases during morning
          prayers, the Jordanville includes the Prayer of St. Ephraim on page 171
          as a part of their selections from the Lenten Triodion, whereas the Old
          Believer's puts it within the body of the Morning Prayers, shortly
          before the dismissal—hence my thought to add it in to my use of the
          Jordanville before the Song of the Theotokos (pg 27), and, as John Billo
          points out, it is the placement used in the Great Compline, but you
          might put it after—I can see the argument for that.



          I have a copy of the Old Jordanville Prayer Book, as newly reprinted by
          the St. George Orthodox Information Service. The bulk of the prayers are
          retained the new edition, however the old edition was obviously slanted
          toward monasticism, that being the part left out of the new. It also
          places the Prayer of St. Ephraim in the Lenten supplement.



          Personally, I find the close relationship of the Old Believer's
          prayer book to the services of the Church to be one of it's most
          positive points. To my mind it fosters a sense of unity with the Church
          even in my personal prayers, keeping my long-ago Protestant urges in
          check.



          BTW: When it comes to St. Ephraim the Syrian, I highly recommend the
          small volume A Spiritual Psalter: Or, Reflections on God excerpted by
          Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and published by St. John of Kronstadt
          Press.



          My humble apologies for length.



          Anna in Oklahoma





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Billo, John
          ________________________________ From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Morgan Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 4 11:31 AM
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            ________________________________

            From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            James Morgan
            Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was:
            Re: Private books of devotion)



            I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
            lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not
            said?
            Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is
            part
            of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they
            are
            ever used outside Great Lent.

            I've wondered this also. In the Holy Transfiguration prayer book, the
            rubrics with the prayer say that it is read on weekdays during Great
            Lent. That infers that it is not read any other season. I have
            difficulty in thinking that we should only pray for those virtues for
            40+ days.


            Reader John Billo

            .

            <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1120159/grpspId=1705023525/m
            sgId=20917/stime=1175710964/nc1=4438964/nc2=4299918/nc3=3848538>



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BAUMGARTH@FORDHAM.EDU
            Actually, we do not serve the interhours in Great Lent, but in the lesser ( Nativity, Apostles, Dormition) fasts. The reading from The Ladder, some
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 4 11:43 AM
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              Actually, we do not serve the interhours in Great Lent, but in the lesser (
              Nativity, Apostles, Dormition) fasts. The reading from The Ladder, some
              commentators say, substitutes for the Interhours in the Great Fast. There
              are times when the Menaion explicitly prohibits the interhours, such as the
              period between the Nativity and the Theophany. So, it seems, their use is
              not confined to the fasts at all.
              Blessed Passion Week to all,
              Dn. Patrick



              "Billo, John"
              <johnbillo@comcas
              t.net> To
              Sent by: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
              ustav@yahoogroups cc
              .com
              Subject
              RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim
              04/04/2007 02:31 (was: Re: Private books of
              PM devotion)


              Please respond to
              ustav@yahoogroups
              .com








              ________________________________

              From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              James Morgan
              Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was:
              Re: Private books of devotion)



              I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
              lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not
              said?
              Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is
              part
              of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they
              are
              ever used outside Great Lent.

              I've wondered this also. In the Holy Transfiguration prayer book, the
              rubrics with the prayer say that it is read on weekdays during Great
              Lent. That infers that it is not read any other season. I have
              difficulty in thinking that we should only pray for those virtues for
              40+ days.


              Reader John Billo

              .

              <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1120159/grpspId=1705023525/m
              sgId=20917/stime=1175710964/nc1=4438964/nc2=4299918/nc3=3848538>



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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            • Deacon Sergius Miller
              ... Dear Reader James, On weekdays during the lesser fasts the Typikon & the Horologion indicate that on a number of lesser saints commemorations that there
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 4 1:06 PM
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                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:

                Dear Reader James,

                On weekdays during the lesser fasts the Typikon & the Horologion
                indicate that on a number of lesser saints' commemorations that there
                is the option of either the Alleluia or the usual "God is the Lord."
                If one opts for the Alleluia then beginning w/Vespers and through
                Matins to the office of the Typica the order of service is for a
                weekday in a fast. The Ephraim Prayer is done. The penitential
                metania & great bows are done. The Divine Liturgy is NOT served on
                such a day. This also includes the Wed. & Fri. of Cheesefare Week.
                Note that just as during the Great Fast, these services are NOT done
                on a Saturday or a Sunday.

                In XC,
                Dn. Sergius





                > I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during
                the
                > lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or
                not said?
                > Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also
                is part
                > of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if
                they are
                > ever used outside Great Lent.
                > I think Peter or Daniel or Dn. Sergius would know.
                > I am probably all mixed up on this. Anyway, Lent is over for this
                year.
                > Maybe next time I'll get it right....ha!
                > Rdr. James
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of
                > stephen_r1937
                > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:25 AM
                > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of
                devotion)
                >
                > Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                > Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                > why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                > pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.
                >
                > Stephen
                >
                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13,
                Vespers on
                > > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                > > Rdr. James
                > > Olympia, WA
                >
              • Kenneth Doll
                Dear Nikita, I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer. When you mention special
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                  Dear Nikita,
                  I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                  that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                  When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                  (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                  think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                  dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                  Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                  influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                  that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                  have similar themes?
                  If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                  the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                  (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                  Kenneth Doll

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear James and Theophan,
                  >
                  < snip >
                  >
                  > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                  for
                  > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                  the
                  > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                  the
                  > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                  > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                  > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                  > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                  > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                  traditional
                  > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                  > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                  > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                  > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                  monasticism).
                  >
                  < snip >
                  >
                  > Nikita
                • Gabriel Sanchez
                  I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this shift apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek prayer books also
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                    I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this "shift"
                    apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek prayer
                    books also recognize the "Votive Offices." What, then, were their true
                    origin? I could certainly understand an argument that these offices came in
                    through the Greeks and were incorporated into Slavic books during or after
                    the seventeenth century. However, since the Old Believers seem to recognize
                    these offices, that would place their date even earlier--correct? Is the
                    argument that there was a mutual "penetration" of these offices? Also, if
                    that is true, I am also curious about Thursday, which is usually used to
                    commemorate St. Nicholas. Compared to his veneration in the East, his place
                    is distinctly reduced in the West. How is it that he is signaled out for
                    his own day over and against other Saints?

                    Just curious.


                    On 7/20/07, Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Nikita,
                    > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                    > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                    > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                    > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                    > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                    > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                    > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                    > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                    > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                    > have similar themes?
                    > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                    > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                    > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                    > Kenneth Doll
                    >
                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita Simmons"
                    > <starina77@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear James and Theophan,
                    > >
                    > < snip >
                    > >
                    > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                    > for
                    > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                    > the
                    > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                    > the
                    > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                    > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                    > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                    > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                    > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                    > traditional
                    > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                    > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                    > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                    > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                    > monasticism).
                    > >
                    > < snip >
                    > >
                    > > Nikita
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dn. Sergius Miller
                    Dear Kenneth, Nikita appears to be talking about the Horologion (Chasoslov) which has votove offices for each day including Sunday so that someone in his cell
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                      Dear Kenneth,

                      Nikita appears to be talking about the Horologion (Chasoslov) which
                      has votove offices for each day including Sunday so that someone in
                      his cell without the full compliment of liturgical books can serve
                      the services privately. Look at the Slavonic Great Chasoslov
                      published by Jordanville (not the English one) and at the votive
                      services for each day including the tone 6 Resurrection services for
                      Sunday.

                      In XC,
                      Dn. Sergius Miller




                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Nikita,
                      > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                      > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                      > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                      > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.),
                      I
                      > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                      > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                      > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through
                      the
                      > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days
                      or
                      > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                      > have similar themes?
                      > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays?
                      Only
                      > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                      > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                      > Kenneth Doll
                      >
                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear James and Theophan,
                      > >
                      > < snip >
                      > >
                      > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                      > for
                      > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                      > the
                      > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                      > the
                      > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book
                      of
                      > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                      > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter,
                      Canons
                      > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                      > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                      > traditional
                      > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the
                      integrity
                      > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall
                      decline
                      > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                      > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                      > monasticism).
                      > >
                      > < snip >
                      > >
                      > > Nikita
                      >
                    • Nikita Simmons
                      ... Dear Kenneth, Sorry I was not more clear. Of course, the Octoechos is structured on the daily these that were mentioned (Monday for the Angels, etc.).
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Nikita,
                        > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                        > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                        > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                        > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                        > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                        > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                        > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                        > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                        > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                        > have similar themes?

                        Dear Kenneth,

                        Sorry I was not more clear. Of course, the Octoechos is structured on
                        the daily these that were mentioned (Monday for the Angels, etc.).
                        Indeed, the Octoechos has separate services in each of the 8 Tones for
                        these weekday commemorations.

                        However, the "Votive Offices" which I referred to are rather late (and
                        very likely to be Uniate) inventions which came out of the
                        southwestern Russian lands sometime in the 1600s, and first appear in
                        the printed monastic prayer books printed in Kiev, Pochaev, and a few
                        other places. If you look in the Slavonic "Byzantine Rite" prayer
                        books currently being printed (or at least in the 20th century) coming
                        from Rome (particularly from the Grotta Ferrata monastery), you will
                        see what I'm referring to. (A few of the more modern Muscovite books
                        include these same or similar service schemes.) There are special
                        offices for each day of the week, which enable a monk to pray nearly a
                        full cycles of services in his cell. Similar to the Octoechos
                        services, these services are however not taken from the Octoechos, but
                        are "generic" services with stichera, troparia and kontakia, canons,
                        etc. selected from a variety of sources -- mostly from different
                        feasts found in the Menaion. They are "mongrel" or "hybrid" services,
                        with elements taken from any number of feast days.

                        The reason for these mongrel services is so that one can pray a full
                        cycle of services in one's cell without having to have access to a
                        copy of the Octoechos or Menaion. All you would need is a Horologion,
                        Psalter and the special Prayer Book with these "Votive Offices"
                        printed therein. -- Very handy, but this form of cell rule with such a
                        dependence on literary sources is probably not what the ancient desert
                        monastic fathers had in mind; gone are the simple recitation of the
                        Psalter and the Jesus Prayer, and instead there are highly intricate
                        solo services that require a far greater degree of literacy and
                        liturgical education than monks typically had access to in previous
                        centuries.

                        In XC,
                        Nikita

                        > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                        > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                        > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                        > Kenneth Doll
                        >
                        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear James and Theophan,
                        > >
                        > < snip >
                        > >
                        > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                        > for
                        > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                        > the
                        > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                        > the
                        > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                        > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                        > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                        > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                        > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                        > traditional
                        > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                        > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                        > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                        > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                        > monasticism).
                        > >
                        > < snip >
                        > >
                        > > Nikita
                        >
                      • Nikita Simmons
                        ... shift ... prayer ... OK, now we have to be careful and begin to make some distinctions. The themes of Monday for the Angels , etc. are a very basic
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel Sanchez"
                          <gabriel.s.sanchez@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this
                          "shift"
                          > apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek
                          prayer
                          > books also recognize the "Votive Offices."

                          OK, now we have to be careful and begin to make some distinctions. The
                          themes of "Monday for the Angels", etc. are a very basic element of
                          the Palestinian weekday Octoechos system, which we all (Greeks, Slavs,
                          etc.) use in the daily Octoechos services.

                          When I use the term "Votive Offices", I am indicating the artificial
                          "hybrid" generic services which contain selections from throughout the
                          Church year, in order to conveniently celebrate full services in one's
                          cell. In these new monastic prayer books there is a full selection of
                          stichera and other hymns for the Angels which can be used on Mondays
                          when praying in the cells; etc., etc.

                          > What, then, were their true
                          > origin? I could certainly understand an argument that these offices
                          came in
                          > through the Greeks and were incorporated into Slavic books during or
                          after
                          > the seventeenth century.

                          Sorry, but the evidence seems to point to Slavic Uniate-influenced
                          sources. I've yet to see these "solo services" as I have described in
                          any Greek prayer books. I could be wrong, but until someone provides
                          conclusive proof of Greek origins, I remain quite skeptical. In
                          addition, I feel that Greek monasticism has stayed a bit closer to its
                          traditional roots than Russian monasticism, which had a major
                          disruption of its traditions from the time of Tsar Peter I to the
                          revival of St. Paisii Velichkovskii -- and one can argue that it never
                          fully emerged from its troubles until the fall of communism.

                          > However, since the Old Believers seem to recognize
                          > these offices, that would place their date even earlier--correct?

                          Sorry, this is not true. The Old Believers have never accepted
                          anything like these hybrid votive offices which I have discussed. Even
                          the Muscovite Church in the post-schism years was reluctant to import
                          Kievan prayer books and service books until well after the beginning
                          of the 18th century, as it was felt that there was too much influence
                          from the Unia and the westernizing influence of Petr Mogila, etc.

                          In XC,
                          Nikita

                          > Is the
                          > argument that there was a mutual "penetration" of these offices?
                          Also, if
                          > that is true, I am also curious about Thursday, which is usually used to
                          > commemorate St. Nicholas. Compared to his veneration in the East,
                          his place
                          > is distinctly reduced in the West. How is it that he is signaled
                          out for
                          > his own day over and against other Saints?
                          >
                          > Just curious.
                          >
                          >
                          > On 7/20/07, Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Nikita,
                          > > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                          > > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                          > > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                          > > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                          > > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                          > > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                          > > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                          > > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                          > > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                          > > have similar themes?
                          > > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                          > > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                          > > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                          > > Kenneth Doll
                          > >
                          > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita
                          Simmons"
                          > > <starina77@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Dear James and Theophan,
                          > > >
                          > > < snip >
                          > > >
                          > > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                          > > for
                          > > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                          > > the
                          > > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                          > > the
                          > > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                          > > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                          > > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                          > > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                          > > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                          > > traditional
                          > > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                          > > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                          > > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                          > > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                          > > monasticism).
                          > > >
                          > > < snip >
                          > > >
                          > > > Nikita
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Kenneth Doll
                          Dear Nikita, Deacon Sergius, Thank you for your explanations. It is much clearer now. Kenneth Doll
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 22, 2007
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                            Dear Nikita, Deacon Sergius,
                            Thank you for your explanations. It is much clearer now.
                            Kenneth Doll
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