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Re: Private books of devotion

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  • Nikita Simmons
    Dear James and Theophan, This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging under the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity.
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 1, 2007
      Dear James and Theophan,

      This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging under
      the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity. Until
      early modern times (I would guess the mid- to late 1600s), the notion
      that monastics and laity were two separate types of Christians was not
      in the general mind-frame of the *Eastern* Orthodox Church (it was
      certainly a Western concept, however); for everyone - monastics and
      laity alike - the morning prayers were the Midnight Office, and the
      evening prayers were Compline. Yes, even lay people prayed these at
      home, as is still the case in the non-Slavic varieties of Orthodoxy
      (traditional Greek, Syrian, etc., etc.) as well as most of the Russian
      Old Believers.

      These Morning and Evening Prayers that are found in the Jordanville
      Prayer Book are an abbreviated form of the two services, with a few
      extra prayers thrown in from various sources (including the monastic
      Memorial Prayers which follow the Cell Rule), and they made their
      appearance in Russia sometime well after Patriarch Nikon's reforms,
      probably not until sometime in the 1700s. The first editions of these
      prayers for laity come from Kiev (the Kiev Caves Lavra) and Pochaev,
      both heavily under the influence of the Unia and various Western
      ideologies at the time (including the ongoing influence of Petr
      Moghila's educational program). From there they made their way to
      Moscow and central Russia, where they caught on in popularity, and
      continue to be popular thanks to contemporary publishing efforts.

      The disadvantages of these prayer rules for laity are almost nil,
      although to be candid, they are a slight departure from the
      traditional form of prayers used for numerous centuries by the
      Orthodox Church; certainly they perpetuate the division of monastics
      and laity as two separate creatures. The advantages, however, surely
      are great, because they allow people in today's very busy world to
      pray a rule of prayer that is more in keeping with the harsh demands
      of time constraints. Even the Old Believers finally got around to
      developing their own counterpart to these prayers in the early 20th
      century (see the Erie Prayer Book), but the majority of Old Believers
      still do not accept these as proper, but continue to pray Compline and
      the Midnight Office.

      But to go back to the origins of these services, we need to look at
      the original Pachomian Rule, and also to consider that the daily
      prayers of the Syrian desert fathers was the memorization and
      recitation of the Psalter. The "Order of the 12 Psalms" became the
      rule of prayer for those who were hermits/solitaries or who were
      unable to attend communal prayer services. The general structure of
      this "order" eventually evolved into different services: Compline, the
      Midnight Office, the Hours, and the Monastic Cell Rule (which then
      provided structure for the Paraklesis/Moleben and Parastasis/Panykhida).

      In pre-Nikonian Russia, the Cell Rule was a fixed, established format,
      and was used by both monastics and pious laity. After Nikon's reforms
      and the introduction of Kievan monastic books, this establish format
      was lost and was replaced by numerous regional forms, where the Cell
      Rule was performed both in the cells and communally (such as the Rule
      of 500 and several other types). There still is no one official format
      to this day in the modern Russian church.

      Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices" for
      each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the
      Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from the
      Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
      the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
      services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
      and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
      privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the traditional
      mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
      of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
      of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
      succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially monasticism).

      So, while the Jordanville form of prayers is an abbreviation of
      offices from the Book of Hours, in most other cases the prayers
      actually got longer and more convoluted over time. I have copies of
      prayer books from the Kiev Caves Monastery in the 1800s that are so
      complex that it takes hours of study to figure out just what they
      expect people to do. (We can joke that it seems only natural that the
      Eastern Church makes things more lengthy and complex, while the
      Western Church keeps making it easier and shorter.)

      Nikita

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
      >
      > Reader James Morgan asked about English prayer books, especially about
      > "...earlier times, say 1500 up to 1850."
      >
      > I also am very interested in this topic and am eager to learn more
      > especially about the development of whatever the Russian Prayer Book
      from
      > which the Jordanville Prayer Book (in English) derives. St.
      Theophan the
      > Recluse writes of "your prayer book" as if there were such a book he was
      > able to consider a standard, expectable part of any Russians' home.
      I was
      > very sad when, as a catechumen, I discovered that this wonderful
      Jordanville
      > Prayer Book has no counterpart in many other Orthodox Churches,
      because I
      > love it! My morning and evening prayers from it, and the wonderful
      > Supplicatory Canons, etc., are a precious part of my life, and I
      feel sad
      > for those whose tradition doesn't include it. I'm really curious
      about when
      > it developed, and how it came to be in Russia but not other Orthodox
      lands.
      >
      > Many thanks!
      >
      > In Christ,
      >
      > Theophan Dort
      >
    • Theophan
      Many thanks, Nikita, for the fascinating information about the development of these prayer books! I m curious about the extra prayer; didn t I read somewhere
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 1, 2007
        Many thanks, Nikita, for the fascinating information about the development
        of these prayer books!

        I'm curious about the "extra" prayer; didn't I read somewhere that there are
        no Greek originals for many of the prayers of St. John Chrysostom, etc.?
        Does anyone know where these came from?

        Thanks again!

        Theophan
      • Nikita Simmons
        ... development ... there are ... Dear Theophan, I m not certain where, but somewhere I read that about half of these extra prayers for the morning and
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 1, 2007
          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
          >
          > Many thanks, Nikita, for the fascinating information about the
          development
          > of these prayer books!
          >
          > I'm curious about the "extra" prayer; didn't I read somewhere that
          there are
          > no Greek originals for many of the prayers of St. John Chrysostom, etc.?
          > Does anyone know where these came from?
          >
          > Thanks again!
          >
          > Theophan
          >

          Dear Theophan,

          I'm not certain where, but somewhere I read that about half of these
          "extra" prayers for the morning and evening are genuine, and the other
          half are pious compositions falsely attributed to st. John Chrysostom,
          etc. I'm sure that someone has done a scholarly study of these
          prayers, but locating this might be a challenge in itself. It
          certainly would be interesting to know more about the genuine origins
          of all these prayers, and how they got collected and added to the
          prayer books that have come down to us.

          The other major innovation that is included in modern Orthodox prayer
          books for home devotion is the inclusion of a variety of Akathist
          Hymns. In the pre-Nikonian Russian tradition, there is only one
          Akathist Hymn: the original one to the Theotokos. Apart from the
          Saturday of the Akathist, the only appointed liturgical use is for the
          monastic cell rule, where it is read every day (if one is given the
          rule of praying Canons).

          A few other Akathist Hymns did appear before the mid-1600s, but they
          did not find their way into Russia until well after the schism of the
          Old Believers (mid-1600s); these first Akathists, dating from the
          1400s or 1500s (and originating in Greece and the Balkans), were in
          honor of "Sweet Jesus", St. Demetrius, Ss. Peter and Paul, St.
          Nicholas, and perhaps a few others. When this compositional form was
          embraced by the Unia in Southwestern and Western Russia, a wide
          variety of new Akathist Hymns, many of poor quality and
          overly-sentimental devotion, began to appear in their prayer books.
          New Akathists for various icons of the Theotokos and a multitude of
          saints, as well as for "Votive Needs" (praying to St. --- for a
          toothache or for a safe journey, etc.), became very popular by the
          1700s and 1800s, despite there being no official liturgical setting
          for performing these hymns.

          While many of these Akathist Hymns have some merit, some are a bit
          questionable (and excessive) in their "spiritual style" and encourage
          a more maudlin form of prayer. (There is also a tendency among
          converts and people who enjoy "liturgical novelties" to collect as
          many of these Akathists as they can, often causing such people to
          spend less time praying the more traditional prayers and developing a
          stable rule of prayer. While the praying of Akathists in moderation
          can be beneficial, the constant pursuit of new Akathists can be a
          temptation and a spiritual distraction.)

          Nikita
        • stephen_r1937
          A very useful survey! Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
            A very useful survey!

            Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books
            expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
            as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
            find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
            Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily prayers
            considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
            first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
            Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy on
            Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough discussion:
            does anyone know where to find such a thing?

            Stephen



            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear James and Theophan,
            >
            > This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging under
            > the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity. Until
            > early modern times (I would guess the mid- to late 1600s), the notion
            > that monastics and laity were two separate types of Christians was not
            > in the general mind-frame of the *Eastern* Orthodox Church (it was
            > certainly a Western concept, however); for everyone - monastics and
            > laity alike - the morning prayers were the Midnight Office, and the
            > evening prayers were Compline. Yes, even lay people prayed these at
            > home, as is still the case in the non-Slavic varieties of Orthodoxy
            > (traditional Greek, Syrian, etc., etc.) as well as most of the Russian
            > Old Believers.
            >
            > These Morning and Evening Prayers that are found in the Jordanville
            > Prayer Book are an abbreviated form of the two services, with a few
            > extra prayers thrown in from various sources (including the monastic
            > Memorial Prayers which follow the Cell Rule), and they made their
            > appearance in Russia sometime well after Patriarch Nikon's reforms,
            > probably not until sometime in the 1700s. The first editions of these
            > prayers for laity come from Kiev (the Kiev Caves Lavra) and Pochaev,
            > both heavily under the influence of the Unia and various Western
            > ideologies at the time (including the ongoing influence of Petr
            > Moghila's educational program). From there they made their way to
            > Moscow and central Russia, where they caught on in popularity, and
            > continue to be popular thanks to contemporary publishing efforts.
            >
            > The disadvantages of these prayer rules for laity are almost nil,
            > although to be candid, they are a slight departure from the
            > traditional form of prayers used for numerous centuries by the
            > Orthodox Church; certainly they perpetuate the division of monastics
            > and laity as two separate creatures. The advantages, however, surely
            > are great, because they allow people in today's very busy world to
            > pray a rule of prayer that is more in keeping with the harsh demands
            > of time constraints. Even the Old Believers finally got around to
            > developing their own counterpart to these prayers in the early 20th
            > century (see the Erie Prayer Book), but the majority of Old Believers
            > still do not accept these as proper, but continue to pray Compline and
            > the Midnight Office.
            >
            > But to go back to the origins of these services, we need to look at
            > the original Pachomian Rule, and also to consider that the daily
            > prayers of the Syrian desert fathers was the memorization and
            > recitation of the Psalter. The "Order of the 12 Psalms" became the
            > rule of prayer for those who were hermits/solitaries or who were
            > unable to attend communal prayer services. The general structure of
            > this "order" eventually evolved into different services: Compline, the
            > Midnight Office, the Hours, and the Monastic Cell Rule (which then
            > provided structure for the Paraklesis/Moleben and Parastasis/Panykhida).
            >
            > In pre-Nikonian Russia, the Cell Rule was a fixed, established format,
            > and was used by both monastics and pious laity. After Nikon's reforms
            > and the introduction of Kievan monastic books, this establish format
            > was lost and was replaced by numerous regional forms, where the Cell
            > Rule was performed both in the cells and communally (such as the Rule
            > of 500 and several other types). There still is no one official format
            > to this day in the modern Russian church.
            >
            > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices" for
            > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the
            > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from the
            > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
            > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
            > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
            > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
            > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the traditional
            > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
            > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
            > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
            > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially monasticism).
            >
            > So, while the Jordanville form of prayers is an abbreviation of
            > offices from the Book of Hours, in most other cases the prayers
            > actually got longer and more convoluted over time. I have copies of
            > prayer books from the Kiev Caves Monastery in the 1800s that are so
            > complex that it takes hours of study to figure out just what they
            > expect people to do. (We can joke that it seems only natural that the
            > Eastern Church makes things more lengthy and complex, while the
            > Western Church keeps making it easier and shorter.)
            >
            > Nikita
            >
            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Reader James Morgan asked about English prayer books, especially about
            > > "...earlier times, say 1500 up to 1850."
            > >
            > > I also am very interested in this topic and am eager to learn more
            > > especially about the development of whatever the Russian Prayer Book
            > from
            > > which the Jordanville Prayer Book (in English) derives. St.
            > Theophan the
            > > Recluse writes of "your prayer book" as if there were such a book
            he was
            > > able to consider a standard, expectable part of any Russians' home.
            > I was
            > > very sad when, as a catechumen, I discovered that this wonderful
            > Jordanville
            > > Prayer Book has no counterpart in many other Orthodox Churches,
            > because I
            > > love it! My morning and evening prayers from it, and the wonderful
            > > Supplicatory Canons, etc., are a precious part of my life, and I
            > feel sad
            > > for those whose tradition doesn't include it. I'm really curious
            > about when
            > > it developed, and how it came to be in Russia but not other Orthodox
            > lands.
            > >
            > > Many thanks!
            > >
            > > In Christ,
            > >
            > > Theophan Dort
            > >
            >
          • Theophan
            Stephen wrote, in part, ... just try to find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the Prayer of St Ephraim... He was referring to when
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
              Stephen wrote, in part,

              ... just try to find an exact and unambiguous statement
              of just when to pray the Prayer of St Ephraim...

              He was referring to when during the season of Lent and Holy Week. But I
              have been curious about when within the "service" is the best or right time
              to insert this prayer into the regular morning and evening prayers in the
              Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I'm asking, when might one insert the
              daily troparion and/or Kontakion if these are appropriate?

              Thanks!

              Theophan
            • James Morgan
              Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time. Rdr. James Olympia, WA From:
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
                Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
                Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                Rdr. James
                Olympia, WA

                From: stephen_r1937
                Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
                To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion

                A very useful survey!

                Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books
                expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
                as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
                find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
                Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily prayers
                considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
                first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
                Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy on
                Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough discussion:
                does anyone know where to find such a thing?

                Stephen
              • Anna Bennett
                ... right time to insert this prayer into the regular morning and evening prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I m asking, when might one insert
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
                  > I have been curious about when within the "service" is the best or
                  right time to insert this prayer into the regular morning and evening
                  prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I'm asking, when
                  might one insert the daily troparion and/or Kontakion if these are
                  appropriate?


                  The lack of provision for these is one reason I always go back to my
                  Old Believer's prayer book. That being said, using it as a guide, the
                  most likely place might be page 27, before the Song to the Most Holy
                  Theotokos...and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that point as well
                  (As they have appointed the Troparion to the Cross there, anyway).

                  The setup between the two is disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard
                  to know--unless someone just happens to know what the accepted practice
                  is, and I don't--I hope someone gives you an authoritative answer!

                  Anna in Oklahoma
                • stephanlh
                  Dear Anna, When you refer to the Old Believers Prayerbook, do you mean the one from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I had thougth
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
                    Dear Anna,

                    When you refer to the Old Believers' Prayerbook, do you mean the one
                    from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I
                    had thougth of becoming an old believer at one time and faced with
                    the present mess in ROCOR, I might just do that...Thanks...Stephan


                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Anna Bennett" <annabennett@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@> wrote:
                    > > I have been curious about when within the "service" is the best
                    or
                    > right time to insert this prayer into the regular morning and
                    evening
                    > prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I'm asking, when
                    > might one insert the daily troparion and/or Kontakion if these are
                    > appropriate?
                    >
                    >
                    > The lack of provision for these is one reason I always go back to
                    my
                    > Old Believer's prayer book. That being said, using it as a guide,
                    the
                    > most likely place might be page 27, before the Song to the Most
                    Holy
                    > Theotokos...and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that point as
                    well
                    > (As they have appointed the Troparion to the Cross there, anyway).
                    >
                    > The setup between the two is disimilar after the Creed, and it's
                    hard
                    > to know--unless someone just happens to know what the accepted
                    practice
                    > is, and I don't--I hope someone gives you an authoritative answer!
                    >
                    > Anna in Oklahoma
                    >
                  • Theophan
                    Anna wrote, in part, The lack of provision for these is one reason I always go back to my Old Believer s prayer book. ... the most likely place might be page
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
                      Anna wrote, in part,

                      The lack of provision for these is one reason I
                      always go back to my Old Believer's prayer book.
                      ... the most likely place might be page 27,
                      before the Song to the Most Holy Theotokos...
                      and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that
                      point as well ... The setup between the two is
                      disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard to know

                      First, MANY thanks for your research and generous and helpful efforts!

                      Second, I'd forgotten about the Old Believer's Prayer Book as a potentially
                      helpful resource -- somehow I just haven't looked at it in a very long time.
                      I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were referring
                      to, but then I got confused. In the edition I have, anyway, the _Old
                      Orthodox Prayer Book_, 1986 edition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim isn't before
                      that prayer to the Theotokos, but long after it (and also after the
                      petitions to the saint whose name we bear and others, which in the
                      Jordanville Prayer Book also come after that prayer to the Theotokos). So
                      this ignorant beginner would have supposed that the Prayer of St. Ephraim
                      should come well after that prayer and all of those other petitions and
                      prayers. I have tried different things. Just based on what seemed like a
                      similarity between the Prayer of St. Ephraim and the three bows and Prayer
                      of the Publican practically at the beginning of the Morning Prayers, I used
                      to do it then. But then when it seemed to me that in services in church
                      that prayer seemed to come practically at the end of the service, I started
                      praying it just before the "Final Prayers," just before "It is truly
                      meet..."

                      I looked at the Midnight Office service both in the Jordanville
                      _Unabbreviated Horologion_ and Father John Whiteford's Reader Service
                      version, and I don't know how to correlate the structure of that service to
                      the Morning Prayers to see how the place they put the Prayer of St. Ephraim
                      there might correspond to the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville Prayer
                      Book.

                      At this point, I guess I agree with you that all of these books are quite
                      different from each other and it's hard to know, or at least it is for me.

                      Many thanks again!

                      Theophan
                    • Billo, John
                      In the Greek tradition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim is read at the end of morning prayers and closed with, Through the prayers of our holy fathers... The
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
                        In the Greek tradition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim is read at the end of
                        morning prayers and closed with, "Through the prayers of our holy
                        fathers..."
                        The Prayer of St. Ephraim is not called out in the Small Compline
                        service, but appears in the Great Compline right before the Song to the
                        Theotokos. Of course, in Great Compline there is still a way to go
                        after that point.

                        John Billo

                        ________________________________

                        From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Theophan
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:33 AM
                        To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion



                        Anna wrote, in part,

                        The lack of provision for these is one reason I
                        always go back to my Old Believer's prayer book.
                        ... the most likely place might be page 27,
                        before the Song to the Most Holy Theotokos...
                        and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that
                        point as well ... The setup between the two is
                        disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard to know

                        First, MANY thanks for your research and generous and helpful efforts!

                        Second, I'd forgotten about the Old Believer's Prayer Book as a
                        potentially
                        helpful resource -- somehow I just haven't looked at it in a very long
                        time.
                        I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
                        referring
                        to, but then I got confused. In the edition I have, anyway, the _Old
                        Orthodox Prayer Book_, 1986 edition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim isn't
                        before
                        that prayer to the Theotokos, but long after it (and also after the
                        petitions to the saint whose name we bear and others, which in the
                        Jordanville Prayer Book also come after that prayer to the Theotokos).
                        So
                        this ignorant beginner would have supposed that the Prayer of St.
                        Ephraim
                        should come well after that prayer and all of those other petitions and
                        prayers. I have tried different things. Just based on what seemed like a
                        similarity between the Prayer of St. Ephraim and the three bows and
                        Prayer
                        of the Publican practically at the beginning of the Morning Prayers, I
                        used
                        to do it then. But then when it seemed to me that in services in church
                        that prayer seemed to come practically at the end of the service, I
                        started
                        praying it just before the "Final Prayers," just before "It is truly
                        meet..."

                        I looked at the Midnight Office service both in the Jordanville
                        _Unabbreviated Horologion_ and Father John Whiteford's Reader Service
                        version, and I don't know how to correlate the structure of that service
                        to
                        the Morning Prayers to see how the place they put the Prayer of St.
                        Ephraim
                        there might correspond to the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville Prayer
                        Book.

                        At this point, I guess I agree with you that all of these books are
                        quite
                        different from each other and it's hard to know, or at least it is for
                        me.

                        Many thanks again!

                        Theophan






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kenneth Doll
                        Dear Nikita, You indicate below that the usual morning and evening prayers for Old Believers are Compline and Midnight Office respectively. Your explanation
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
                          Dear Nikita,
                          You indicate below that the usual morning and evening prayers for
                          Old Believers are Compline and Midnight Office respectively. Your
                          explanation is convincing and certainly the practice seems
                          appropriate.
                          I am curious however as to how the praying of these two offices at
                          home combines with your previous comments about these offices being
                          prayed at Old Believer parishes in the normal order of things.
                          Do Old Believers then sometimes pray these office twice a day (once
                          in church and once at home) if they attend church, or is there some
                          other prayers said if one has been at church so as not to repeat?
                          Yours in XC,
                          Kenneth Doll

                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging
                          under
                          > the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity.
                          Until
                          > early modern times (I would guess the mid- to late 1600s), the
                          notion
                          > that monastics and laity were two separate types of Christians was
                          not
                          > in the general mind-frame of the *Eastern* Orthodox Church (it was
                          > certainly a Western concept, however); for everyone - monastics and
                          > laity alike - the morning prayers were the Midnight Office, and the
                          > evening prayers were Compline. Yes, even lay people prayed these at
                          > home, as is still the case in the non-Slavic varieties of Orthodoxy
                          > (traditional Greek, Syrian, etc., etc.) as well as most of the
                          Russian
                          > Old Believers.

                          <snip>

                          > of time constraints. Even the Old Believers finally got around to
                          > developing their own counterpart to these prayers in the early 20th
                          > century (see the Erie Prayer Book), but the majority of Old
                          Believers
                          > still do not accept these as proper, but continue to pray Compline
                          and
                          > the Midnight Office.
                        • stephanlh
                          Dear Theopan, I waid into this discussion with some hesistation in that I do not know much about the subject. One thing I do know is that sometimes it pays to
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
                            Dear Theopan,

                            I waid into this discussion with some hesistation in that I do not
                            know much about the subject. One thing I do know is that sometimes it
                            pays to check out other prayerbooks such as the one from Holy
                            Transfiguration Monastery in Boston. It is based on an older Greek
                            prayerbook with some borrowing from Russian sources, but you will be
                            able to see there that the morning prayers do resemble the Midnight
                            Office (somewhat shortened for people like I who seem to be always
                            running late for work, church, etc.) and the evening prayers are in
                            fact compline.

                            I hope this helps...Stephan in Ottawa


                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Anna wrote, in part,
                            >
                            > The lack of provision for these is one reason I
                            > always go back to my Old Believer's prayer book.
                            > ... the most likely place might be page 27,
                            > before the Song to the Most Holy Theotokos...
                            > and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that
                            > point as well ... The setup between the two is
                            > disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard to know
                            >
                            > First, MANY thanks for your research and generous and helpful
                            efforts!
                            >
                            > Second, I'd forgotten about the Old Believer's Prayer Book as a
                            potentially
                            > helpful resource -- somehow I just haven't looked at it in a very
                            long time.
                            > I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
                            referring
                            > to, but then I got confused. In the edition I have, anyway, the
                            _Old
                            > Orthodox Prayer Book_, 1986 edition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim
                            isn't before
                            > that prayer to the Theotokos, but long after it (and also after the
                            > petitions to the saint whose name we bear and others, which in the
                            > Jordanville Prayer Book also come after that prayer to the
                            Theotokos). So
                            > this ignorant beginner would have supposed that the Prayer of St.
                            Ephraim
                            > should come well after that prayer and all of those other petitions
                            and
                            > prayers. I have tried different things. Just based on what seemed
                            like a
                            > similarity between the Prayer of St. Ephraim and the three bows and
                            Prayer
                            > of the Publican practically at the beginning of the Morning
                            Prayers, I used
                            > to do it then. But then when it seemed to me that in services in
                            church
                            > that prayer seemed to come practically at the end of the service, I
                            started
                            > praying it just before the "Final Prayers," just before "It is truly
                            > meet..."
                            >
                            > I looked at the Midnight Office service both in the Jordanville
                            > _Unabbreviated Horologion_ and Father John Whiteford's Reader
                            Service
                            > version, and I don't know how to correlate the structure of that
                            service to
                            > the Morning Prayers to see how the place they put the Prayer of St.
                            Ephraim
                            > there might correspond to the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville
                            Prayer
                            > Book.
                            >
                            > At this point, I guess I agree with you that all of these books are
                            quite
                            > different from each other and it's hard to know, or at least it is
                            for me.
                            >
                            > Many thanks again!
                            >
                            > Theophan
                            >
                          • Nikita Simmons
                            ... Dear Kenneth, If we prayer Compline and Midnight Office in Church, there really isn t any point in repeating these prayers at home. Since we generally
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Nikita,
                              > You indicate below that the usual morning and evening prayers for
                              > Old Believers are Compline and Midnight Office respectively. Your
                              > explanation is convincing and certainly the practice seems
                              > appropriate.
                              > I am curious however as to how the praying of these two offices at
                              > home combines with your previous comments about these offices being
                              > prayed at Old Believer parishes in the normal order of things.
                              > Do Old Believers then sometimes pray these office twice a day (once
                              > in church and once at home) if they attend church, or is there some
                              > other prayers said if one has been at church so as not to repeat?
                              > Yours in XC,
                              > Kenneth Doll

                              Dear Kenneth,

                              If we prayer Compline and Midnight Office in Church, there really
                              isn't any point in repeating these prayers at home. Since we generally
                              perform the full Typicon of services in Old Rite communities on
                              Saturday through Sunday evenings, there simply isn't much time or
                              energy left for home prayers on those days.

                              Nikita
                            • stephen_r1937
                              Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is why I have been looking
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.

                                Stephen

                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
                                > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                > Rdr. James
                                > Olympia, WA
                                >
                                > From: stephen_r1937
                                > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
                                > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion
                                >
                                > A very useful survey!
                                >
                                > Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books
                                > expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
                                > as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
                                > find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
                                > Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily prayers
                                > considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
                                > first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
                                > Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy on
                                > Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough discussion:
                                > does anyone know where to find such a thing?
                                >
                                > Stephen
                                >
                              • Anna Bennett
                                ... No, I m not an Old Believer, although I ve come to cherish the prayer book, and I can t explain why...I guess it just seems more complete than the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephanlh" <stephanlh@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Anna,
                                  >
                                  > When you refer to the Old Believers' Prayerbook, do you mean the one
                                  > from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I
                                  > had thougth of becoming an old believer at one time and faced with
                                  > the present mess in ROCOR, I might just do that...Thanks...Stephan


                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com> ,
                                  "stephanlh" <stephanlh@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Anna,
                                  >
                                  > When you refer to the Old Believers' Prayerbook, do you mean the one
                                  > from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I
                                  > had thougth of becoming an old believer at one time and faced with
                                  > the present mess in ROCOR, I might just do that...Thanks...Stephan
                                  >


                                  No, I'm not an Old Believer, although I've come to cherish the prayer
                                  book, and I can't explain why...I guess it just seems more complete than
                                  the Jordanville, even the Old Jordanville edition.

                                  Anna in Oklahoma
                                  (Who is in ROCOR)

                                  Blog: http://annainok.wordpress.com <http://annainok.wordpress.com>





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • James Morgan
                                  I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not said? Memory is
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                    I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
                                    lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not said?
                                    Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is part
                                    of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they are
                                    ever used outside Great Lent.
                                    I think Peter or Daniel or Dn. Sergius would know.
                                    I am probably all mixed up on this. Anyway, Lent is over for this year.
                                    Maybe next time I'll get it right....ha!
                                    Rdr. James

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    stephen_r1937
                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:25 AM
                                    To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of devotion)

                                    Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                    Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                    why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                    pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.

                                    Stephen

                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
                                    > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                    > Rdr. James
                                    > Olympia, WA
                                  • Deacon Sergius Miller
                                    ... wrote: Dear Stephen, In the fast of the Theotokos, the Prayer of St. Ephraim can be done on August 3 & 4, if the Alleluia (fasting service without Liturgy)
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
                                      wrote:

                                      Dear Stephen,

                                      In the fast of the Theotokos, the Prayer of St. Ephraim can be done
                                      on August 3 & 4, if the Alleluia (fasting service without Liturgy) is
                                      observed on those days.

                                      In the Nativity & Apostles fasts the days on which the Alleluia
                                      services can be done are indicated in the Typikon and in the Holy
                                      Transfiguration Horologion; I'll look them up when I have a chance &
                                      send you the list.

                                      In XC,
                                      Dn. Sergius



                                      >
                                      > Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                      > Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                      > why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                      > pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.
                                      >
                                      > Stephen
                                      >
                                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13,
                                      Vespers on
                                      > > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                      > > Rdr. James
                                      > > Olympia, WA
                                      > >
                                      > > From: stephen_r1937
                                      > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
                                      > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion
                                      > >
                                      > > A very useful survey!
                                      > >
                                      > > Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the
                                      books
                                      > > expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also
                                      known
                                      > > as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
                                      > > find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
                                      > > Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily
                                      prayers
                                      > > considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
                                      > > first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
                                      > > Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy
                                      on
                                      > > Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough
                                      discussion:
                                      > > does anyone know where to find such a thing?
                                      > >
                                      > > Stephen
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Anna Bennett
                                      ... referring ... They are somewhat dissimilar, oweing to their backgrounds one would assume. The arrangement of prayer is the Old Believer s prayer book (for
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:

                                        > I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
                                        referring
                                        > to, but then I got confused.

                                        They are somewhat dissimilar, oweing to their backgrounds one would
                                        assume. The arrangement of prayer is the Old Believer's prayer book (for
                                        Morning prayers) is:

                                        The Entrance Bows:

                                        The Prayer of the Publican

                                        It is Truly Meet…

                                        Glory…

                                        Lord have mercy…

                                        Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, through the prayers…

                                        Morning Prayers I

                                        Through the prayers…

                                        Glory. (x3)

                                        The Prayer of St. Marcarius the Great (same as Prayer I,
                                        Jordanville)

                                        The Prayer to the Holy Spirit

                                        The Trisagion

                                        The Lord's Prayer

                                        Lord have mercy (x12)

                                        Having arisen from sleep…(roughly corresponds to
                                        Troparia to the Holy Trinity, Jordanville)

                                        Come let us worship…

                                        Psalm 50

                                        Confession

                                        Angelic Salutation

                                        Kontakion from the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos (x3)

                                        Most Holy Lady…

                                        Invincible and divine power of the precious and life-giving cross…

                                        Prayers for Intercession by Heavenly powers, Guardian angel, and Holy
                                        ones

                                        O Lord I have sinned…

                                        Jesus Prayer

                                        Most Holy Trinity…

                                        Prayers for Intercession by the chief Apostles, prophets, forerunner,
                                        St. Nicholas, and all saints.

                                        Intercessions for all the needs



                                        The Prayer of St. Ephraim



                                        Morning Prayers II

                                        St. Isaac the Syrian

                                        St. Stephen of the Thebaid

                                        St. John Chrysostom

                                        The Fourth Prayer (unattributed)

                                        The blessing with your baptism cross

                                        Reading of Canon or Akathist, if desired

                                        Glory

                                        Lord have mercy (x3)

                                        Dismissal

                                        Prayer for Forgiveness

                                        O Lord Who lovest mankind…

                                        Remembrances

                                        The Departure Bows (same as the Entrance Bows)

                                        All my hope I place in thee…

                                        God be merciful…



                                        Now, the Jordanville arrangement:



                                        Prayer of the Publican

                                        The Beginning Prayer

                                        Troparia to the Holy Trinity

                                        Prayer of St. Basil the Great to the Holy Trinity

                                        O come let us worship…

                                        Psalm 50

                                        Creed

                                        Prayer I of St. Marcarius the Great

                                        Prayer II of the same saint

                                        Prayer III of the same saint

                                        Prayer IV of the same saint

                                        Prayer V of St. Basil

                                        Prayer VI likewise of St Basil

                                        Prayer VII to the Theotokos (I sing of Thy grace…)

                                        Prayer VIII to our Lord Jesus Christ

                                        Prayer XIX to the Holy Guardian Angel

                                        Prayer X to the Theotokos (O my most holy Lady…)

                                        Prayer for the salvation of Russia

                                        Prayer for the Invocation of the Saint whose Name we bear

                                        Song to the Theotokos (corresponds to the Angelic Salutation)

                                        Troparion to the Cross

                                        Commemoration for the Living

                                        Commemoration for the Departed

                                        Final Prayer

                                        It is truly meet…

                                        Glory.

                                        Lord have mercy. (x3)

                                        O Lord, bless

                                        Dismissal





                                        While both prayer books cover all the general bases during morning
                                        prayers, the Jordanville includes the Prayer of St. Ephraim on page 171
                                        as a part of their selections from the Lenten Triodion, whereas the Old
                                        Believer's puts it within the body of the Morning Prayers, shortly
                                        before the dismissal—hence my thought to add it in to my use of the
                                        Jordanville before the Song of the Theotokos (pg 27), and, as John Billo
                                        points out, it is the placement used in the Great Compline, but you
                                        might put it after—I can see the argument for that.



                                        I have a copy of the Old Jordanville Prayer Book, as newly reprinted by
                                        the St. George Orthodox Information Service. The bulk of the prayers are
                                        retained the new edition, however the old edition was obviously slanted
                                        toward monasticism, that being the part left out of the new. It also
                                        places the Prayer of St. Ephraim in the Lenten supplement.



                                        Personally, I find the close relationship of the Old Believer's
                                        prayer book to the services of the Church to be one of it's most
                                        positive points. To my mind it fosters a sense of unity with the Church
                                        even in my personal prayers, keeping my long-ago Protestant urges in
                                        check.



                                        BTW: When it comes to St. Ephraim the Syrian, I highly recommend the
                                        small volume A Spiritual Psalter: Or, Reflections on God excerpted by
                                        Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and published by St. John of Kronstadt
                                        Press.



                                        My humble apologies for length.



                                        Anna in Oklahoma





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Billo, John
                                        ________________________________ From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Morgan Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                          ________________________________

                                          From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          James Morgan
                                          Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
                                          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was:
                                          Re: Private books of devotion)



                                          I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
                                          lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not
                                          said?
                                          Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is
                                          part
                                          of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they
                                          are
                                          ever used outside Great Lent.

                                          I've wondered this also. In the Holy Transfiguration prayer book, the
                                          rubrics with the prayer say that it is read on weekdays during Great
                                          Lent. That infers that it is not read any other season. I have
                                          difficulty in thinking that we should only pray for those virtues for
                                          40+ days.


                                          Reader John Billo

                                          .

                                          <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1120159/grpspId=1705023525/m
                                          sgId=20917/stime=1175710964/nc1=4438964/nc2=4299918/nc3=3848538>



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • BAUMGARTH@FORDHAM.EDU
                                          Actually, we do not serve the interhours in Great Lent, but in the lesser ( Nativity, Apostles, Dormition) fasts. The reading from The Ladder, some
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                            Actually, we do not serve the interhours in Great Lent, but in the lesser (
                                            Nativity, Apostles, Dormition) fasts. The reading from The Ladder, some
                                            commentators say, substitutes for the Interhours in the Great Fast. There
                                            are times when the Menaion explicitly prohibits the interhours, such as the
                                            period between the Nativity and the Theophany. So, it seems, their use is
                                            not confined to the fasts at all.
                                            Blessed Passion Week to all,
                                            Dn. Patrick



                                            "Billo, John"
                                            <johnbillo@comcas
                                            t.net> To
                                            Sent by: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                            ustav@yahoogroups cc
                                            .com
                                            Subject
                                            RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim
                                            04/04/2007 02:31 (was: Re: Private books of
                                            PM devotion)


                                            Please respond to
                                            ustav@yahoogroups
                                            .com








                                            ________________________________

                                            From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                            James Morgan
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
                                            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was:
                                            Re: Private books of devotion)



                                            I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
                                            lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not
                                            said?
                                            Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is
                                            part
                                            of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they
                                            are
                                            ever used outside Great Lent.

                                            I've wondered this also. In the Holy Transfiguration prayer book, the
                                            rubrics with the prayer say that it is read on weekdays during Great
                                            Lent. That infers that it is not read any other season. I have
                                            difficulty in thinking that we should only pray for those virtues for
                                            40+ days.


                                            Reader John Billo

                                            .

                                            <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1120159/grpspId=1705023525/m
                                            sgId=20917/stime=1175710964/nc1=4438964/nc2=4299918/nc3=3848538>



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                          • Deacon Sergius Miller
                                            ... Dear Reader James, On weekdays during the lesser fasts the Typikon & the Horologion indicate that on a number of lesser saints commemorations that there
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
                                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:

                                              Dear Reader James,

                                              On weekdays during the lesser fasts the Typikon & the Horologion
                                              indicate that on a number of lesser saints' commemorations that there
                                              is the option of either the Alleluia or the usual "God is the Lord."
                                              If one opts for the Alleluia then beginning w/Vespers and through
                                              Matins to the office of the Typica the order of service is for a
                                              weekday in a fast. The Ephraim Prayer is done. The penitential
                                              metania & great bows are done. The Divine Liturgy is NOT served on
                                              such a day. This also includes the Wed. & Fri. of Cheesefare Week.
                                              Note that just as during the Great Fast, these services are NOT done
                                              on a Saturday or a Sunday.

                                              In XC,
                                              Dn. Sergius





                                              > I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during
                                              the
                                              > lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or
                                              not said?
                                              > Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also
                                              is part
                                              > of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if
                                              they are
                                              > ever used outside Great Lent.
                                              > I think Peter or Daniel or Dn. Sergius would know.
                                              > I am probably all mixed up on this. Anyway, Lent is over for this
                                              year.
                                              > Maybe next time I'll get it right....ha!
                                              > Rdr. James
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              Behalf Of
                                              > stephen_r1937
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:25 AM
                                              > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of
                                              devotion)
                                              >
                                              > Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                              > Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                              > why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                              > pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.
                                              >
                                              > Stephen
                                              >
                                              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13,
                                              Vespers on
                                              > > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                              > > Rdr. James
                                              > > Olympia, WA
                                              >
                                            • Kenneth Doll
                                              Dear Nikita, I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer. When you mention special
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
                                                Dear Nikita,
                                                I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                have similar themes?
                                                If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                Kenneth Doll

                                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                >
                                                < snip >
                                                >
                                                > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                for
                                                > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                the
                                                > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                the
                                                > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                traditional
                                                > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                monasticism).
                                                >
                                                < snip >
                                                >
                                                > Nikita
                                              • Gabriel Sanchez
                                                I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this shift apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek prayer books also
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
                                                  I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this "shift"
                                                  apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek prayer
                                                  books also recognize the "Votive Offices." What, then, were their true
                                                  origin? I could certainly understand an argument that these offices came in
                                                  through the Greeks and were incorporated into Slavic books during or after
                                                  the seventeenth century. However, since the Old Believers seem to recognize
                                                  these offices, that would place their date even earlier--correct? Is the
                                                  argument that there was a mutual "penetration" of these offices? Also, if
                                                  that is true, I am also curious about Thursday, which is usually used to
                                                  commemorate St. Nicholas. Compared to his veneration in the East, his place
                                                  is distinctly reduced in the West. How is it that he is signaled out for
                                                  his own day over and against other Saints?

                                                  Just curious.


                                                  On 7/20/07, Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Nikita,
                                                  > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                  > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                  > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                  > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                  > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                  > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                  > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                  > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                  > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                  > have similar themes?
                                                  > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                  > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                  > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                  > Kenneth Doll
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita Simmons"
                                                  > <starina77@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                  > >
                                                  > < snip >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                  > for
                                                  > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                  > the
                                                  > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                  > the
                                                  > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                  > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                  > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                  > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                  > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                  > traditional
                                                  > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                  > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                  > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                  > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                  > monasticism).
                                                  > >
                                                  > < snip >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Nikita
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Dn. Sergius Miller
                                                  Dear Kenneth, Nikita appears to be talking about the Horologion (Chasoslov) which has votove offices for each day including Sunday so that someone in his cell
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
                                                    Dear Kenneth,

                                                    Nikita appears to be talking about the Horologion (Chasoslov) which
                                                    has votove offices for each day including Sunday so that someone in
                                                    his cell without the full compliment of liturgical books can serve
                                                    the services privately. Look at the Slavonic Great Chasoslov
                                                    published by Jordanville (not the English one) and at the votive
                                                    services for each day including the tone 6 Resurrection services for
                                                    Sunday.

                                                    In XC,
                                                    Dn. Sergius Miller




                                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Nikita,
                                                    > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                    > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                    > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                    > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.),
                                                    I
                                                    > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                    > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                    > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through
                                                    the
                                                    > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days
                                                    or
                                                    > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                    > have similar themes?
                                                    > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays?
                                                    Only
                                                    > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                    > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                    > Kenneth Doll
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                    > >
                                                    > < snip >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                    > for
                                                    > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book
                                                    of
                                                    > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                    > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter,
                                                    Canons
                                                    > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                    > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                    > traditional
                                                    > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the
                                                    integrity
                                                    > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall
                                                    decline
                                                    > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                    > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                    > monasticism).
                                                    > >
                                                    > < snip >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Nikita
                                                    >
                                                  • Nikita Simmons
                                                    ... Dear Kenneth, Sorry I was not more clear. Of course, the Octoechos is structured on the daily these that were mentioned (Monday for the Angels, etc.).
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
                                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Nikita,
                                                      > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                      > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                      > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                      > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                      > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                      > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                      > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                      > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                      > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                      > have similar themes?

                                                      Dear Kenneth,

                                                      Sorry I was not more clear. Of course, the Octoechos is structured on
                                                      the daily these that were mentioned (Monday for the Angels, etc.).
                                                      Indeed, the Octoechos has separate services in each of the 8 Tones for
                                                      these weekday commemorations.

                                                      However, the "Votive Offices" which I referred to are rather late (and
                                                      very likely to be Uniate) inventions which came out of the
                                                      southwestern Russian lands sometime in the 1600s, and first appear in
                                                      the printed monastic prayer books printed in Kiev, Pochaev, and a few
                                                      other places. If you look in the Slavonic "Byzantine Rite" prayer
                                                      books currently being printed (or at least in the 20th century) coming
                                                      from Rome (particularly from the Grotta Ferrata monastery), you will
                                                      see what I'm referring to. (A few of the more modern Muscovite books
                                                      include these same or similar service schemes.) There are special
                                                      offices for each day of the week, which enable a monk to pray nearly a
                                                      full cycles of services in his cell. Similar to the Octoechos
                                                      services, these services are however not taken from the Octoechos, but
                                                      are "generic" services with stichera, troparia and kontakia, canons,
                                                      etc. selected from a variety of sources -- mostly from different
                                                      feasts found in the Menaion. They are "mongrel" or "hybrid" services,
                                                      with elements taken from any number of feast days.

                                                      The reason for these mongrel services is so that one can pray a full
                                                      cycle of services in one's cell without having to have access to a
                                                      copy of the Octoechos or Menaion. All you would need is a Horologion,
                                                      Psalter and the special Prayer Book with these "Votive Offices"
                                                      printed therein. -- Very handy, but this form of cell rule with such a
                                                      dependence on literary sources is probably not what the ancient desert
                                                      monastic fathers had in mind; gone are the simple recitation of the
                                                      Psalter and the Jesus Prayer, and instead there are highly intricate
                                                      solo services that require a far greater degree of literacy and
                                                      liturgical education than monks typically had access to in previous
                                                      centuries.

                                                      In XC,
                                                      Nikita

                                                      > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                      > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                      > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                      > Kenneth Doll
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                      > >
                                                      > < snip >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                      > for
                                                      > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                      > the
                                                      > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                      > the
                                                      > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                      > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                      > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                      > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                      > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                      > traditional
                                                      > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                      > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                      > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                      > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                      > monasticism).
                                                      > >
                                                      > < snip >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Nikita
                                                      >
                                                    • Nikita Simmons
                                                      ... shift ... prayer ... OK, now we have to be careful and begin to make some distinctions. The themes of Monday for the Angels , etc. are a very basic
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
                                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel Sanchez"
                                                        <gabriel.s.sanchez@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this
                                                        "shift"
                                                        > apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek
                                                        prayer
                                                        > books also recognize the "Votive Offices."

                                                        OK, now we have to be careful and begin to make some distinctions. The
                                                        themes of "Monday for the Angels", etc. are a very basic element of
                                                        the Palestinian weekday Octoechos system, which we all (Greeks, Slavs,
                                                        etc.) use in the daily Octoechos services.

                                                        When I use the term "Votive Offices", I am indicating the artificial
                                                        "hybrid" generic services which contain selections from throughout the
                                                        Church year, in order to conveniently celebrate full services in one's
                                                        cell. In these new monastic prayer books there is a full selection of
                                                        stichera and other hymns for the Angels which can be used on Mondays
                                                        when praying in the cells; etc., etc.

                                                        > What, then, were their true
                                                        > origin? I could certainly understand an argument that these offices
                                                        came in
                                                        > through the Greeks and were incorporated into Slavic books during or
                                                        after
                                                        > the seventeenth century.

                                                        Sorry, but the evidence seems to point to Slavic Uniate-influenced
                                                        sources. I've yet to see these "solo services" as I have described in
                                                        any Greek prayer books. I could be wrong, but until someone provides
                                                        conclusive proof of Greek origins, I remain quite skeptical. In
                                                        addition, I feel that Greek monasticism has stayed a bit closer to its
                                                        traditional roots than Russian monasticism, which had a major
                                                        disruption of its traditions from the time of Tsar Peter I to the
                                                        revival of St. Paisii Velichkovskii -- and one can argue that it never
                                                        fully emerged from its troubles until the fall of communism.

                                                        > However, since the Old Believers seem to recognize
                                                        > these offices, that would place their date even earlier--correct?

                                                        Sorry, this is not true. The Old Believers have never accepted
                                                        anything like these hybrid votive offices which I have discussed. Even
                                                        the Muscovite Church in the post-schism years was reluctant to import
                                                        Kievan prayer books and service books until well after the beginning
                                                        of the 18th century, as it was felt that there was too much influence
                                                        from the Unia and the westernizing influence of Petr Mogila, etc.

                                                        In XC,
                                                        Nikita

                                                        > Is the
                                                        > argument that there was a mutual "penetration" of these offices?
                                                        Also, if
                                                        > that is true, I am also curious about Thursday, which is usually used to
                                                        > commemorate St. Nicholas. Compared to his veneration in the East,
                                                        his place
                                                        > is distinctly reduced in the West. How is it that he is signaled
                                                        out for
                                                        > his own day over and against other Saints?
                                                        >
                                                        > Just curious.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > On 7/20/07, Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Dear Nikita,
                                                        > > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                        > > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                        > > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                        > > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                        > > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                        > > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                        > > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                        > > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                        > > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                        > > have similar themes?
                                                        > > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                        > > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                        > > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                        > > Kenneth Doll
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita
                                                        Simmons"
                                                        > > <starina77@> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > < snip >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                        > > for
                                                        > > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                        > > the
                                                        > > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                        > > the
                                                        > > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                        > > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                        > > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                        > > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                        > > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                        > > traditional
                                                        > > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                        > > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                        > > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                        > > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                        > > monasticism).
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > < snip >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Nikita
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                      • Kenneth Doll
                                                        Dear Nikita, Deacon Sergius, Thank you for your explanations. It is much clearer now. Kenneth Doll
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 22, 2007
                                                          Dear Nikita, Deacon Sergius,
                                                          Thank you for your explanations. It is much clearer now.
                                                          Kenneth Doll
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