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RE: [ustav] Private books of devotion

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  • Theophan
    Reader James Morgan asked about English prayer books, especially about ...earlier times, say 1500 up to 1850. I also am very interested in this topic and am
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 31 7:14 PM
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      Reader James Morgan asked about English prayer books, especially about
      "...earlier times, say 1500 up to 1850."

      I also am very interested in this topic and am eager to learn more
      especially about the development of whatever the Russian Prayer Book from
      which the Jordanville Prayer Book (in English) derives. St. Theophan the
      Recluse writes of "your prayer book" as if there were such a book he was
      able to consider a standard, expectable part of any Russians' home. I was
      very sad when, as a catechumen, I discovered that this wonderful Jordanville
      Prayer Book has no counterpart in many other Orthodox Churches, because I
      love it! My morning and evening prayers from it, and the wonderful
      Supplicatory Canons, etc., are a precious part of my life, and I feel sad
      for those whose tradition doesn't include it. I'm really curious about when
      it developed, and how it came to be in Russia but not other Orthodox lands.

      Many thanks!

      In Christ,

      Theophan Dort
    • Nikita Simmons
      Dear James and Theophan, This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging under the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity.
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 1, 2007
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        Dear James and Theophan,

        This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging under
        the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity. Until
        early modern times (I would guess the mid- to late 1600s), the notion
        that monastics and laity were two separate types of Christians was not
        in the general mind-frame of the *Eastern* Orthodox Church (it was
        certainly a Western concept, however); for everyone - monastics and
        laity alike - the morning prayers were the Midnight Office, and the
        evening prayers were Compline. Yes, even lay people prayed these at
        home, as is still the case in the non-Slavic varieties of Orthodoxy
        (traditional Greek, Syrian, etc., etc.) as well as most of the Russian
        Old Believers.

        These Morning and Evening Prayers that are found in the Jordanville
        Prayer Book are an abbreviated form of the two services, with a few
        extra prayers thrown in from various sources (including the monastic
        Memorial Prayers which follow the Cell Rule), and they made their
        appearance in Russia sometime well after Patriarch Nikon's reforms,
        probably not until sometime in the 1700s. The first editions of these
        prayers for laity come from Kiev (the Kiev Caves Lavra) and Pochaev,
        both heavily under the influence of the Unia and various Western
        ideologies at the time (including the ongoing influence of Petr
        Moghila's educational program). From there they made their way to
        Moscow and central Russia, where they caught on in popularity, and
        continue to be popular thanks to contemporary publishing efforts.

        The disadvantages of these prayer rules for laity are almost nil,
        although to be candid, they are a slight departure from the
        traditional form of prayers used for numerous centuries by the
        Orthodox Church; certainly they perpetuate the division of monastics
        and laity as two separate creatures. The advantages, however, surely
        are great, because they allow people in today's very busy world to
        pray a rule of prayer that is more in keeping with the harsh demands
        of time constraints. Even the Old Believers finally got around to
        developing their own counterpart to these prayers in the early 20th
        century (see the Erie Prayer Book), but the majority of Old Believers
        still do not accept these as proper, but continue to pray Compline and
        the Midnight Office.

        But to go back to the origins of these services, we need to look at
        the original Pachomian Rule, and also to consider that the daily
        prayers of the Syrian desert fathers was the memorization and
        recitation of the Psalter. The "Order of the 12 Psalms" became the
        rule of prayer for those who were hermits/solitaries or who were
        unable to attend communal prayer services. The general structure of
        this "order" eventually evolved into different services: Compline, the
        Midnight Office, the Hours, and the Monastic Cell Rule (which then
        provided structure for the Paraklesis/Moleben and Parastasis/Panykhida).

        In pre-Nikonian Russia, the Cell Rule was a fixed, established format,
        and was used by both monastics and pious laity. After Nikon's reforms
        and the introduction of Kievan monastic books, this establish format
        was lost and was replaced by numerous regional forms, where the Cell
        Rule was performed both in the cells and communally (such as the Rule
        of 500 and several other types). There still is no one official format
        to this day in the modern Russian church.

        Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices" for
        each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the
        Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from the
        Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
        the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
        services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
        and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
        privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the traditional
        mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
        of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
        of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
        succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially monasticism).

        So, while the Jordanville form of prayers is an abbreviation of
        offices from the Book of Hours, in most other cases the prayers
        actually got longer and more convoluted over time. I have copies of
        prayer books from the Kiev Caves Monastery in the 1800s that are so
        complex that it takes hours of study to figure out just what they
        expect people to do. (We can joke that it seems only natural that the
        Eastern Church makes things more lengthy and complex, while the
        Western Church keeps making it easier and shorter.)

        Nikita

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
        >
        > Reader James Morgan asked about English prayer books, especially about
        > "...earlier times, say 1500 up to 1850."
        >
        > I also am very interested in this topic and am eager to learn more
        > especially about the development of whatever the Russian Prayer Book
        from
        > which the Jordanville Prayer Book (in English) derives. St.
        Theophan the
        > Recluse writes of "your prayer book" as if there were such a book he was
        > able to consider a standard, expectable part of any Russians' home.
        I was
        > very sad when, as a catechumen, I discovered that this wonderful
        Jordanville
        > Prayer Book has no counterpart in many other Orthodox Churches,
        because I
        > love it! My morning and evening prayers from it, and the wonderful
        > Supplicatory Canons, etc., are a precious part of my life, and I
        feel sad
        > for those whose tradition doesn't include it. I'm really curious
        about when
        > it developed, and how it came to be in Russia but not other Orthodox
        lands.
        >
        > Many thanks!
        >
        > In Christ,
        >
        > Theophan Dort
        >
      • Theophan
        Many thanks, Nikita, for the fascinating information about the development of these prayer books! I m curious about the extra prayer; didn t I read somewhere
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 1, 2007
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          Many thanks, Nikita, for the fascinating information about the development
          of these prayer books!

          I'm curious about the "extra" prayer; didn't I read somewhere that there are
          no Greek originals for many of the prayers of St. John Chrysostom, etc.?
          Does anyone know where these came from?

          Thanks again!

          Theophan
        • Nikita Simmons
          ... development ... there are ... Dear Theophan, I m not certain where, but somewhere I read that about half of these extra prayers for the morning and
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 1, 2007
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            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
            >
            > Many thanks, Nikita, for the fascinating information about the
            development
            > of these prayer books!
            >
            > I'm curious about the "extra" prayer; didn't I read somewhere that
            there are
            > no Greek originals for many of the prayers of St. John Chrysostom, etc.?
            > Does anyone know where these came from?
            >
            > Thanks again!
            >
            > Theophan
            >

            Dear Theophan,

            I'm not certain where, but somewhere I read that about half of these
            "extra" prayers for the morning and evening are genuine, and the other
            half are pious compositions falsely attributed to st. John Chrysostom,
            etc. I'm sure that someone has done a scholarly study of these
            prayers, but locating this might be a challenge in itself. It
            certainly would be interesting to know more about the genuine origins
            of all these prayers, and how they got collected and added to the
            prayer books that have come down to us.

            The other major innovation that is included in modern Orthodox prayer
            books for home devotion is the inclusion of a variety of Akathist
            Hymns. In the pre-Nikonian Russian tradition, there is only one
            Akathist Hymn: the original one to the Theotokos. Apart from the
            Saturday of the Akathist, the only appointed liturgical use is for the
            monastic cell rule, where it is read every day (if one is given the
            rule of praying Canons).

            A few other Akathist Hymns did appear before the mid-1600s, but they
            did not find their way into Russia until well after the schism of the
            Old Believers (mid-1600s); these first Akathists, dating from the
            1400s or 1500s (and originating in Greece and the Balkans), were in
            honor of "Sweet Jesus", St. Demetrius, Ss. Peter and Paul, St.
            Nicholas, and perhaps a few others. When this compositional form was
            embraced by the Unia in Southwestern and Western Russia, a wide
            variety of new Akathist Hymns, many of poor quality and
            overly-sentimental devotion, began to appear in their prayer books.
            New Akathists for various icons of the Theotokos and a multitude of
            saints, as well as for "Votive Needs" (praying to St. --- for a
            toothache or for a safe journey, etc.), became very popular by the
            1700s and 1800s, despite there being no official liturgical setting
            for performing these hymns.

            While many of these Akathist Hymns have some merit, some are a bit
            questionable (and excessive) in their "spiritual style" and encourage
            a more maudlin form of prayer. (There is also a tendency among
            converts and people who enjoy "liturgical novelties" to collect as
            many of these Akathists as they can, often causing such people to
            spend less time praying the more traditional prayers and developing a
            stable rule of prayer. While the praying of Akathists in moderation
            can be beneficial, the constant pursuit of new Akathists can be a
            temptation and a spiritual distraction.)

            Nikita
          • stephen_r1937
            A very useful survey! Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
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              A very useful survey!

              Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books
              expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
              as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
              find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
              Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily prayers
              considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
              first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
              Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy on
              Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough discussion:
              does anyone know where to find such a thing?

              Stephen



              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear James and Theophan,
              >
              > This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging under
              > the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity. Until
              > early modern times (I would guess the mid- to late 1600s), the notion
              > that monastics and laity were two separate types of Christians was not
              > in the general mind-frame of the *Eastern* Orthodox Church (it was
              > certainly a Western concept, however); for everyone - monastics and
              > laity alike - the morning prayers were the Midnight Office, and the
              > evening prayers were Compline. Yes, even lay people prayed these at
              > home, as is still the case in the non-Slavic varieties of Orthodoxy
              > (traditional Greek, Syrian, etc., etc.) as well as most of the Russian
              > Old Believers.
              >
              > These Morning and Evening Prayers that are found in the Jordanville
              > Prayer Book are an abbreviated form of the two services, with a few
              > extra prayers thrown in from various sources (including the monastic
              > Memorial Prayers which follow the Cell Rule), and they made their
              > appearance in Russia sometime well after Patriarch Nikon's reforms,
              > probably not until sometime in the 1700s. The first editions of these
              > prayers for laity come from Kiev (the Kiev Caves Lavra) and Pochaev,
              > both heavily under the influence of the Unia and various Western
              > ideologies at the time (including the ongoing influence of Petr
              > Moghila's educational program). From there they made their way to
              > Moscow and central Russia, where they caught on in popularity, and
              > continue to be popular thanks to contemporary publishing efforts.
              >
              > The disadvantages of these prayer rules for laity are almost nil,
              > although to be candid, they are a slight departure from the
              > traditional form of prayers used for numerous centuries by the
              > Orthodox Church; certainly they perpetuate the division of monastics
              > and laity as two separate creatures. The advantages, however, surely
              > are great, because they allow people in today's very busy world to
              > pray a rule of prayer that is more in keeping with the harsh demands
              > of time constraints. Even the Old Believers finally got around to
              > developing their own counterpart to these prayers in the early 20th
              > century (see the Erie Prayer Book), but the majority of Old Believers
              > still do not accept these as proper, but continue to pray Compline and
              > the Midnight Office.
              >
              > But to go back to the origins of these services, we need to look at
              > the original Pachomian Rule, and also to consider that the daily
              > prayers of the Syrian desert fathers was the memorization and
              > recitation of the Psalter. The "Order of the 12 Psalms" became the
              > rule of prayer for those who were hermits/solitaries or who were
              > unable to attend communal prayer services. The general structure of
              > this "order" eventually evolved into different services: Compline, the
              > Midnight Office, the Hours, and the Monastic Cell Rule (which then
              > provided structure for the Paraklesis/Moleben and Parastasis/Panykhida).
              >
              > In pre-Nikonian Russia, the Cell Rule was a fixed, established format,
              > and was used by both monastics and pious laity. After Nikon's reforms
              > and the introduction of Kievan monastic books, this establish format
              > was lost and was replaced by numerous regional forms, where the Cell
              > Rule was performed both in the cells and communally (such as the Rule
              > of 500 and several other types). There still is no one official format
              > to this day in the modern Russian church.
              >
              > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices" for
              > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the
              > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from the
              > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
              > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
              > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
              > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
              > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the traditional
              > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
              > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
              > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
              > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially monasticism).
              >
              > So, while the Jordanville form of prayers is an abbreviation of
              > offices from the Book of Hours, in most other cases the prayers
              > actually got longer and more convoluted over time. I have copies of
              > prayer books from the Kiev Caves Monastery in the 1800s that are so
              > complex that it takes hours of study to figure out just what they
              > expect people to do. (We can joke that it seems only natural that the
              > Eastern Church makes things more lengthy and complex, while the
              > Western Church keeps making it easier and shorter.)
              >
              > Nikita
              >
              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Reader James Morgan asked about English prayer books, especially about
              > > "...earlier times, say 1500 up to 1850."
              > >
              > > I also am very interested in this topic and am eager to learn more
              > > especially about the development of whatever the Russian Prayer Book
              > from
              > > which the Jordanville Prayer Book (in English) derives. St.
              > Theophan the
              > > Recluse writes of "your prayer book" as if there were such a book
              he was
              > > able to consider a standard, expectable part of any Russians' home.
              > I was
              > > very sad when, as a catechumen, I discovered that this wonderful
              > Jordanville
              > > Prayer Book has no counterpart in many other Orthodox Churches,
              > because I
              > > love it! My morning and evening prayers from it, and the wonderful
              > > Supplicatory Canons, etc., are a precious part of my life, and I
              > feel sad
              > > for those whose tradition doesn't include it. I'm really curious
              > about when
              > > it developed, and how it came to be in Russia but not other Orthodox
              > lands.
              > >
              > > Many thanks!
              > >
              > > In Christ,
              > >
              > > Theophan Dort
              > >
              >
            • Theophan
              Stephen wrote, in part, ... just try to find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the Prayer of St Ephraim... He was referring to when
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
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                Stephen wrote, in part,

                ... just try to find an exact and unambiguous statement
                of just when to pray the Prayer of St Ephraim...

                He was referring to when during the season of Lent and Holy Week. But I
                have been curious about when within the "service" is the best or right time
                to insert this prayer into the regular morning and evening prayers in the
                Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I'm asking, when might one insert the
                daily troparion and/or Kontakion if these are appropriate?

                Thanks!

                Theophan
              • James Morgan
                Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time. Rdr. James Olympia, WA From:
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
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                  Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
                  Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                  Rdr. James
                  Olympia, WA

                  From: stephen_r1937
                  Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
                  To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion

                  A very useful survey!

                  Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books
                  expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
                  as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
                  find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
                  Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily prayers
                  considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
                  first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
                  Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy on
                  Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough discussion:
                  does anyone know where to find such a thing?

                  Stephen
                • Anna Bennett
                  ... right time to insert this prayer into the regular morning and evening prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I m asking, when might one insert
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 2, 2007
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                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
                    > I have been curious about when within the "service" is the best or
                    right time to insert this prayer into the regular morning and evening
                    prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I'm asking, when
                    might one insert the daily troparion and/or Kontakion if these are
                    appropriate?


                    The lack of provision for these is one reason I always go back to my
                    Old Believer's prayer book. That being said, using it as a guide, the
                    most likely place might be page 27, before the Song to the Most Holy
                    Theotokos...and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that point as well
                    (As they have appointed the Troparion to the Cross there, anyway).

                    The setup between the two is disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard
                    to know--unless someone just happens to know what the accepted practice
                    is, and I don't--I hope someone gives you an authoritative answer!

                    Anna in Oklahoma
                  • stephanlh
                    Dear Anna, When you refer to the Old Believers Prayerbook, do you mean the one from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I had thougth
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
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                      Dear Anna,

                      When you refer to the Old Believers' Prayerbook, do you mean the one
                      from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I
                      had thougth of becoming an old believer at one time and faced with
                      the present mess in ROCOR, I might just do that...Thanks...Stephan


                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Anna Bennett" <annabennett@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@> wrote:
                      > > I have been curious about when within the "service" is the best
                      or
                      > right time to insert this prayer into the regular morning and
                      evening
                      > prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Book, and while I'm asking, when
                      > might one insert the daily troparion and/or Kontakion if these are
                      > appropriate?
                      >
                      >
                      > The lack of provision for these is one reason I always go back to
                      my
                      > Old Believer's prayer book. That being said, using it as a guide,
                      the
                      > most likely place might be page 27, before the Song to the Most
                      Holy
                      > Theotokos...and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that point as
                      well
                      > (As they have appointed the Troparion to the Cross there, anyway).
                      >
                      > The setup between the two is disimilar after the Creed, and it's
                      hard
                      > to know--unless someone just happens to know what the accepted
                      practice
                      > is, and I don't--I hope someone gives you an authoritative answer!
                      >
                      > Anna in Oklahoma
                      >
                    • Theophan
                      Anna wrote, in part, The lack of provision for these is one reason I always go back to my Old Believer s prayer book. ... the most likely place might be page
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
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                        Anna wrote, in part,

                        The lack of provision for these is one reason I
                        always go back to my Old Believer's prayer book.
                        ... the most likely place might be page 27,
                        before the Song to the Most Holy Theotokos...
                        and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that
                        point as well ... The setup between the two is
                        disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard to know

                        First, MANY thanks for your research and generous and helpful efforts!

                        Second, I'd forgotten about the Old Believer's Prayer Book as a potentially
                        helpful resource -- somehow I just haven't looked at it in a very long time.
                        I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were referring
                        to, but then I got confused. In the edition I have, anyway, the _Old
                        Orthodox Prayer Book_, 1986 edition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim isn't before
                        that prayer to the Theotokos, but long after it (and also after the
                        petitions to the saint whose name we bear and others, which in the
                        Jordanville Prayer Book also come after that prayer to the Theotokos). So
                        this ignorant beginner would have supposed that the Prayer of St. Ephraim
                        should come well after that prayer and all of those other petitions and
                        prayers. I have tried different things. Just based on what seemed like a
                        similarity between the Prayer of St. Ephraim and the three bows and Prayer
                        of the Publican practically at the beginning of the Morning Prayers, I used
                        to do it then. But then when it seemed to me that in services in church
                        that prayer seemed to come practically at the end of the service, I started
                        praying it just before the "Final Prayers," just before "It is truly
                        meet..."

                        I looked at the Midnight Office service both in the Jordanville
                        _Unabbreviated Horologion_ and Father John Whiteford's Reader Service
                        version, and I don't know how to correlate the structure of that service to
                        the Morning Prayers to see how the place they put the Prayer of St. Ephraim
                        there might correspond to the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville Prayer
                        Book.

                        At this point, I guess I agree with you that all of these books are quite
                        different from each other and it's hard to know, or at least it is for me.

                        Many thanks again!

                        Theophan
                      • Billo, John
                        In the Greek tradition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim is read at the end of morning prayers and closed with, Through the prayers of our holy fathers... The
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
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                          In the Greek tradition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim is read at the end of
                          morning prayers and closed with, "Through the prayers of our holy
                          fathers..."
                          The Prayer of St. Ephraim is not called out in the Small Compline
                          service, but appears in the Great Compline right before the Song to the
                          Theotokos. Of course, in Great Compline there is still a way to go
                          after that point.

                          John Billo

                          ________________________________

                          From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Theophan
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:33 AM
                          To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion



                          Anna wrote, in part,

                          The lack of provision for these is one reason I
                          always go back to my Old Believer's prayer book.
                          ... the most likely place might be page 27,
                          before the Song to the Most Holy Theotokos...
                          and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that
                          point as well ... The setup between the two is
                          disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard to know

                          First, MANY thanks for your research and generous and helpful efforts!

                          Second, I'd forgotten about the Old Believer's Prayer Book as a
                          potentially
                          helpful resource -- somehow I just haven't looked at it in a very long
                          time.
                          I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
                          referring
                          to, but then I got confused. In the edition I have, anyway, the _Old
                          Orthodox Prayer Book_, 1986 edition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim isn't
                          before
                          that prayer to the Theotokos, but long after it (and also after the
                          petitions to the saint whose name we bear and others, which in the
                          Jordanville Prayer Book also come after that prayer to the Theotokos).
                          So
                          this ignorant beginner would have supposed that the Prayer of St.
                          Ephraim
                          should come well after that prayer and all of those other petitions and
                          prayers. I have tried different things. Just based on what seemed like a
                          similarity between the Prayer of St. Ephraim and the three bows and
                          Prayer
                          of the Publican practically at the beginning of the Morning Prayers, I
                          used
                          to do it then. But then when it seemed to me that in services in church
                          that prayer seemed to come practically at the end of the service, I
                          started
                          praying it just before the "Final Prayers," just before "It is truly
                          meet..."

                          I looked at the Midnight Office service both in the Jordanville
                          _Unabbreviated Horologion_ and Father John Whiteford's Reader Service
                          version, and I don't know how to correlate the structure of that service
                          to
                          the Morning Prayers to see how the place they put the Prayer of St.
                          Ephraim
                          there might correspond to the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville Prayer
                          Book.

                          At this point, I guess I agree with you that all of these books are
                          quite
                          different from each other and it's hard to know, or at least it is for
                          me.

                          Many thanks again!

                          Theophan






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Kenneth Doll
                          Dear Nikita, You indicate below that the usual morning and evening prayers for Old Believers are Compline and Midnight Office respectively. Your explanation
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
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                            Dear Nikita,
                            You indicate below that the usual morning and evening prayers for
                            Old Believers are Compline and Midnight Office respectively. Your
                            explanation is convincing and certainly the practice seems
                            appropriate.
                            I am curious however as to how the praying of these two offices at
                            home combines with your previous comments about these offices being
                            prayed at Old Believer parishes in the normal order of things.
                            Do Old Believers then sometimes pray these office twice a day (once
                            in church and once at home) if they attend church, or is there some
                            other prayers said if one has been at church so as not to repeat?
                            Yours in XC,
                            Kenneth Doll

                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > This is certainly an interesting subject, if one starts digging
                            under
                            > the surface of our modern practice of daily prayers for laity.
                            Until
                            > early modern times (I would guess the mid- to late 1600s), the
                            notion
                            > that monastics and laity were two separate types of Christians was
                            not
                            > in the general mind-frame of the *Eastern* Orthodox Church (it was
                            > certainly a Western concept, however); for everyone - monastics and
                            > laity alike - the morning prayers were the Midnight Office, and the
                            > evening prayers were Compline. Yes, even lay people prayed these at
                            > home, as is still the case in the non-Slavic varieties of Orthodoxy
                            > (traditional Greek, Syrian, etc., etc.) as well as most of the
                            Russian
                            > Old Believers.

                            <snip>

                            > of time constraints. Even the Old Believers finally got around to
                            > developing their own counterpart to these prayers in the early 20th
                            > century (see the Erie Prayer Book), but the majority of Old
                            Believers
                            > still do not accept these as proper, but continue to pray Compline
                            and
                            > the Midnight Office.
                          • stephanlh
                            Dear Theopan, I waid into this discussion with some hesistation in that I do not know much about the subject. One thing I do know is that sometimes it pays to
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
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                              Dear Theopan,

                              I waid into this discussion with some hesistation in that I do not
                              know much about the subject. One thing I do know is that sometimes it
                              pays to check out other prayerbooks such as the one from Holy
                              Transfiguration Monastery in Boston. It is based on an older Greek
                              prayerbook with some borrowing from Russian sources, but you will be
                              able to see there that the morning prayers do resemble the Midnight
                              Office (somewhat shortened for people like I who seem to be always
                              running late for work, church, etc.) and the evening prayers are in
                              fact compline.

                              I hope this helps...Stephan in Ottawa


                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Anna wrote, in part,
                              >
                              > The lack of provision for these is one reason I
                              > always go back to my Old Believer's prayer book.
                              > ... the most likely place might be page 27,
                              > before the Song to the Most Holy Theotokos...
                              > and the Troparion/Kontakion inserted at that
                              > point as well ... The setup between the two is
                              > disimilar after the Creed, and it's hard to know
                              >
                              > First, MANY thanks for your research and generous and helpful
                              efforts!
                              >
                              > Second, I'd forgotten about the Old Believer's Prayer Book as a
                              potentially
                              > helpful resource -- somehow I just haven't looked at it in a very
                              long time.
                              > I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
                              referring
                              > to, but then I got confused. In the edition I have, anyway, the
                              _Old
                              > Orthodox Prayer Book_, 1986 edition, the Prayer of St. Ephraim
                              isn't before
                              > that prayer to the Theotokos, but long after it (and also after the
                              > petitions to the saint whose name we bear and others, which in the
                              > Jordanville Prayer Book also come after that prayer to the
                              Theotokos). So
                              > this ignorant beginner would have supposed that the Prayer of St.
                              Ephraim
                              > should come well after that prayer and all of those other petitions
                              and
                              > prayers. I have tried different things. Just based on what seemed
                              like a
                              > similarity between the Prayer of St. Ephraim and the three bows and
                              Prayer
                              > of the Publican practically at the beginning of the Morning
                              Prayers, I used
                              > to do it then. But then when it seemed to me that in services in
                              church
                              > that prayer seemed to come practically at the end of the service, I
                              started
                              > praying it just before the "Final Prayers," just before "It is truly
                              > meet..."
                              >
                              > I looked at the Midnight Office service both in the Jordanville
                              > _Unabbreviated Horologion_ and Father John Whiteford's Reader
                              Service
                              > version, and I don't know how to correlate the structure of that
                              service to
                              > the Morning Prayers to see how the place they put the Prayer of St.
                              Ephraim
                              > there might correspond to the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville
                              Prayer
                              > Book.
                              >
                              > At this point, I guess I agree with you that all of these books are
                              quite
                              > different from each other and it's hard to know, or at least it is
                              for me.
                              >
                              > Many thanks again!
                              >
                              > Theophan
                              >
                            • Nikita Simmons
                              ... Dear Kenneth, If we prayer Compline and Midnight Office in Church, there really isn t any point in repeating these prayers at home. Since we generally
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 3, 2007
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                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Nikita,
                                > You indicate below that the usual morning and evening prayers for
                                > Old Believers are Compline and Midnight Office respectively. Your
                                > explanation is convincing and certainly the practice seems
                                > appropriate.
                                > I am curious however as to how the praying of these two offices at
                                > home combines with your previous comments about these offices being
                                > prayed at Old Believer parishes in the normal order of things.
                                > Do Old Believers then sometimes pray these office twice a day (once
                                > in church and once at home) if they attend church, or is there some
                                > other prayers said if one has been at church so as not to repeat?
                                > Yours in XC,
                                > Kenneth Doll

                                Dear Kenneth,

                                If we prayer Compline and Midnight Office in Church, there really
                                isn't any point in repeating these prayers at home. Since we generally
                                perform the full Typicon of services in Old Rite communities on
                                Saturday through Sunday evenings, there simply isn't much time or
                                energy left for home prayers on those days.

                                Nikita
                              • stephen_r1937
                                Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is why I have been looking
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                  Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                  Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                  why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                  pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.

                                  Stephen

                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
                                  > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                  > Rdr. James
                                  > Olympia, WA
                                  >
                                  > From: stephen_r1937
                                  > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
                                  > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion
                                  >
                                  > A very useful survey!
                                  >
                                  > Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the books
                                  > expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also known
                                  > as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
                                  > find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
                                  > Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily prayers
                                  > considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
                                  > first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
                                  > Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy on
                                  > Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough discussion:
                                  > does anyone know where to find such a thing?
                                  >
                                  > Stephen
                                  >
                                • Anna Bennett
                                  ... No, I m not an Old Believer, although I ve come to cherish the prayer book, and I can t explain why...I guess it just seems more complete than the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephanlh" <stephanlh@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Anna,
                                    >
                                    > When you refer to the Old Believers' Prayerbook, do you mean the one
                                    > from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I
                                    > had thougth of becoming an old believer at one time and faced with
                                    > the present mess in ROCOR, I might just do that...Thanks...Stephan


                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com> ,
                                    "stephanlh" <stephanlh@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Anna,
                                    >
                                    > When you refer to the Old Believers' Prayerbook, do you mean the one
                                    > from Erie, Penn or anotherone? Are you an old believer yourself? I
                                    > had thougth of becoming an old believer at one time and faced with
                                    > the present mess in ROCOR, I might just do that...Thanks...Stephan
                                    >


                                    No, I'm not an Old Believer, although I've come to cherish the prayer
                                    book, and I can't explain why...I guess it just seems more complete than
                                    the Jordanville, even the Old Jordanville edition.

                                    Anna in Oklahoma
                                    (Who is in ROCOR)

                                    Blog: http://annainok.wordpress.com <http://annainok.wordpress.com>





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • James Morgan
                                    I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not said? Memory is
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                      I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
                                      lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not said?
                                      Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is part
                                      of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they are
                                      ever used outside Great Lent.
                                      I think Peter or Daniel or Dn. Sergius would know.
                                      I am probably all mixed up on this. Anyway, Lent is over for this year.
                                      Maybe next time I'll get it right....ha!
                                      Rdr. James

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      stephen_r1937
                                      Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:25 AM
                                      To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of devotion)

                                      Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                      Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                      why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                      pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.

                                      Stephen

                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13, Vespers on
                                      > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                      > Rdr. James
                                      > Olympia, WA
                                    • Deacon Sergius Miller
                                      ... wrote: Dear Stephen, In the fast of the Theotokos, the Prayer of St. Ephraim can be done on August 3 & 4, if the Alleluia (fasting service without Liturgy)
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        Dear Stephen,

                                        In the fast of the Theotokos, the Prayer of St. Ephraim can be done
                                        on August 3 & 4, if the Alleluia (fasting service without Liturgy) is
                                        observed on those days.

                                        In the Nativity & Apostles fasts the days on which the Alleluia
                                        services can be done are indicated in the Typikon and in the Holy
                                        Transfiguration Horologion; I'll look them up when I have a chance &
                                        send you the list.

                                        In XC,
                                        Dn. Sergius



                                        >
                                        > Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                        > Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                        > why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                        > pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.
                                        >
                                        > Stephen
                                        >
                                        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13,
                                        Vespers on
                                        > > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                        > > Rdr. James
                                        > > Olympia, WA
                                        > >
                                        > > From: stephen_r1937
                                        > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:55 AM
                                        > > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Private books of devotion
                                        > >
                                        > > A very useful survey!
                                        > >
                                        > > Now, speaking of hours of study trying to figure out what the
                                        books
                                        > > expect people to do, if anyone wants hours of frustration (also
                                        known
                                        > > as an opportunity to exercise the virtue of patience), just try to
                                        > > find an exact and unambiguous statement of just when to pray the
                                        > > Prayer of St Ephraim a) in church services and b)in the daily
                                        prayers
                                        > > considered in this thread, from Cheese-Fare Week to Holy Week. The
                                        > > first occasion, as far as I know, is Vespers on the evening of
                                        > > Cheesefare Sunday (Forgiveness Vespers), and the last at Liturgy
                                        on
                                        > > Wednesday of Holy Week; but I would like to see a thorough
                                        discussion:
                                        > > does anyone know where to find such a thing?
                                        > >
                                        > > Stephen
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Anna Bennett
                                        ... referring ... They are somewhat dissimilar, oweing to their backgrounds one would assume. The arrangement of prayer is the Old Believer s prayer book (for
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:

                                          > I have the older edition, and I looked it up to see what you were
                                          referring
                                          > to, but then I got confused.

                                          They are somewhat dissimilar, oweing to their backgrounds one would
                                          assume. The arrangement of prayer is the Old Believer's prayer book (for
                                          Morning prayers) is:

                                          The Entrance Bows:

                                          The Prayer of the Publican

                                          It is Truly Meet…

                                          Glory…

                                          Lord have mercy…

                                          Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, through the prayers…

                                          Morning Prayers I

                                          Through the prayers…

                                          Glory. (x3)

                                          The Prayer of St. Marcarius the Great (same as Prayer I,
                                          Jordanville)

                                          The Prayer to the Holy Spirit

                                          The Trisagion

                                          The Lord's Prayer

                                          Lord have mercy (x12)

                                          Having arisen from sleep…(roughly corresponds to
                                          Troparia to the Holy Trinity, Jordanville)

                                          Come let us worship…

                                          Psalm 50

                                          Confession

                                          Angelic Salutation

                                          Kontakion from the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos (x3)

                                          Most Holy Lady…

                                          Invincible and divine power of the precious and life-giving cross…

                                          Prayers for Intercession by Heavenly powers, Guardian angel, and Holy
                                          ones

                                          O Lord I have sinned…

                                          Jesus Prayer

                                          Most Holy Trinity…

                                          Prayers for Intercession by the chief Apostles, prophets, forerunner,
                                          St. Nicholas, and all saints.

                                          Intercessions for all the needs



                                          The Prayer of St. Ephraim



                                          Morning Prayers II

                                          St. Isaac the Syrian

                                          St. Stephen of the Thebaid

                                          St. John Chrysostom

                                          The Fourth Prayer (unattributed)

                                          The blessing with your baptism cross

                                          Reading of Canon or Akathist, if desired

                                          Glory

                                          Lord have mercy (x3)

                                          Dismissal

                                          Prayer for Forgiveness

                                          O Lord Who lovest mankind…

                                          Remembrances

                                          The Departure Bows (same as the Entrance Bows)

                                          All my hope I place in thee…

                                          God be merciful…



                                          Now, the Jordanville arrangement:



                                          Prayer of the Publican

                                          The Beginning Prayer

                                          Troparia to the Holy Trinity

                                          Prayer of St. Basil the Great to the Holy Trinity

                                          O come let us worship…

                                          Psalm 50

                                          Creed

                                          Prayer I of St. Marcarius the Great

                                          Prayer II of the same saint

                                          Prayer III of the same saint

                                          Prayer IV of the same saint

                                          Prayer V of St. Basil

                                          Prayer VI likewise of St Basil

                                          Prayer VII to the Theotokos (I sing of Thy grace…)

                                          Prayer VIII to our Lord Jesus Christ

                                          Prayer XIX to the Holy Guardian Angel

                                          Prayer X to the Theotokos (O my most holy Lady…)

                                          Prayer for the salvation of Russia

                                          Prayer for the Invocation of the Saint whose Name we bear

                                          Song to the Theotokos (corresponds to the Angelic Salutation)

                                          Troparion to the Cross

                                          Commemoration for the Living

                                          Commemoration for the Departed

                                          Final Prayer

                                          It is truly meet…

                                          Glory.

                                          Lord have mercy. (x3)

                                          O Lord, bless

                                          Dismissal





                                          While both prayer books cover all the general bases during morning
                                          prayers, the Jordanville includes the Prayer of St. Ephraim on page 171
                                          as a part of their selections from the Lenten Triodion, whereas the Old
                                          Believer's puts it within the body of the Morning Prayers, shortly
                                          before the dismissal—hence my thought to add it in to my use of the
                                          Jordanville before the Song of the Theotokos (pg 27), and, as John Billo
                                          points out, it is the placement used in the Great Compline, but you
                                          might put it after—I can see the argument for that.



                                          I have a copy of the Old Jordanville Prayer Book, as newly reprinted by
                                          the St. George Orthodox Information Service. The bulk of the prayers are
                                          retained the new edition, however the old edition was obviously slanted
                                          toward monasticism, that being the part left out of the new. It also
                                          places the Prayer of St. Ephraim in the Lenten supplement.



                                          Personally, I find the close relationship of the Old Believer's
                                          prayer book to the services of the Church to be one of it's most
                                          positive points. To my mind it fosters a sense of unity with the Church
                                          even in my personal prayers, keeping my long-ago Protestant urges in
                                          check.



                                          BTW: When it comes to St. Ephraim the Syrian, I highly recommend the
                                          small volume A Spiritual Psalter: Or, Reflections on God excerpted by
                                          Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and published by St. John of Kronstadt
                                          Press.



                                          My humble apologies for length.



                                          Anna in Oklahoma





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Billo, John
                                          ________________________________ From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Morgan Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                            ________________________________

                                            From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                            James Morgan
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
                                            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was:
                                            Re: Private books of devotion)



                                            I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
                                            lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not
                                            said?
                                            Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is
                                            part
                                            of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they
                                            are
                                            ever used outside Great Lent.

                                            I've wondered this also. In the Holy Transfiguration prayer book, the
                                            rubrics with the prayer say that it is read on weekdays during Great
                                            Lent. That infers that it is not read any other season. I have
                                            difficulty in thinking that we should only pray for those virtues for
                                            40+ days.


                                            Reader John Billo

                                            .

                                            <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1120159/grpspId=1705023525/m
                                            sgId=20917/stime=1175710964/nc1=4438964/nc2=4299918/nc3=3848538>



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • BAUMGARTH@FORDHAM.EDU
                                            Actually, we do not serve the interhours in Great Lent, but in the lesser ( Nativity, Apostles, Dormition) fasts. The reading from The Ladder, some
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                              Actually, we do not serve the interhours in Great Lent, but in the lesser (
                                              Nativity, Apostles, Dormition) fasts. The reading from The Ladder, some
                                              commentators say, substitutes for the Interhours in the Great Fast. There
                                              are times when the Menaion explicitly prohibits the interhours, such as the
                                              period between the Nativity and the Theophany. So, it seems, their use is
                                              not confined to the fasts at all.
                                              Blessed Passion Week to all,
                                              Dn. Patrick



                                              "Billo, John"
                                              <johnbillo@comcas
                                              t.net> To
                                              Sent by: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                                              ustav@yahoogroups cc
                                              .com
                                              Subject
                                              RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim
                                              04/04/2007 02:31 (was: Re: Private books of
                                              PM devotion)


                                              Please respond to
                                              ustav@yahoogroups
                                              .com








                                              ________________________________

                                              From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                              James Morgan
                                              Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:37 PM
                                              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: X-IMail-SPAM-Premium RE: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was:
                                              Re: Private books of devotion)



                                              I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during the
                                              lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or not
                                              said?
                                              Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also is
                                              part
                                              of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if they
                                              are
                                              ever used outside Great Lent.

                                              I've wondered this also. In the Holy Transfiguration prayer book, the
                                              rubrics with the prayer say that it is read on weekdays during Great
                                              Lent. That infers that it is not read any other season. I have
                                              difficulty in thinking that we should only pray for those virtues for
                                              40+ days.


                                              Reader John Billo

                                              .

                                              <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1120159/grpspId=1705023525/m
                                              sgId=20917/stime=1175710964/nc1=4438964/nc2=4299918/nc3=3848538>



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                            • Deacon Sergius Miller
                                              ... Dear Reader James, On weekdays during the lesser fasts the Typikon & the Horologion indicate that on a number of lesser saints commemorations that there
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@...> wrote:

                                                Dear Reader James,

                                                On weekdays during the lesser fasts the Typikon & the Horologion
                                                indicate that on a number of lesser saints' commemorations that there
                                                is the option of either the Alleluia or the usual "God is the Lord."
                                                If one opts for the Alleluia then beginning w/Vespers and through
                                                Matins to the office of the Typica the order of service is for a
                                                weekday in a fast. The Ephraim Prayer is done. The penitential
                                                metania & great bows are done. The Divine Liturgy is NOT served on
                                                such a day. This also includes the Wed. & Fri. of Cheesefare Week.
                                                Note that just as during the Great Fast, these services are NOT done
                                                on a Saturday or a Sunday.

                                                In XC,
                                                Dn. Sergius





                                                > I remember reading, either on this list or on Typicon, that during
                                                the
                                                > lesser fasting seasons on days when Alleluia is said at Matins(or
                                                not said?
                                                > Memory is failing) that the prayer of St. Ephrem is used. It also
                                                is part
                                                > of the 'interhours' that are in the Horologion but I don't know if
                                                they are
                                                > ever used outside Great Lent.
                                                > I think Peter or Daniel or Dn. Sergius would know.
                                                > I am probably all mixed up on this. Anyway, Lent is over for this
                                                year.
                                                > Maybe next time I'll get it right....ha!
                                                > Rdr. James
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: ustav@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ustav@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                Behalf Of
                                                > stephen_r1937
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:25 AM
                                                > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [ustav] Prayer of St. Ephraim (was: Re: Private books of
                                                devotion)
                                                >
                                                > Right you are, James! I had forgotten that the prayer appears on
                                                > Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week. Well, this sort of thing is
                                                > why I have been looking for a *useful* prescription of just when to
                                                > pray it, not just "during Lent"--and so far without success.
                                                >
                                                > Stephen
                                                >
                                                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Stephen, according to the Supplement to the Triodion, p 13,
                                                Vespers on
                                                > > Tuesday evening in Cheese week is the first time.
                                                > > Rdr. James
                                                > > Olympia, WA
                                                >
                                              • Kenneth Doll
                                                Dear Nikita, I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer. When you mention special
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                                  Dear Nikita,
                                                  I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                  that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                  When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                  (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                  think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                  dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                  Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                  influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                  that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                  have similar themes?
                                                  If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                  the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                  (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                  Kenneth Doll

                                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                  >
                                                  < snip >
                                                  >
                                                  > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                  for
                                                  > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                  the
                                                  > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                  the
                                                  > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                  > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                  > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                  > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                  > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                  traditional
                                                  > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                  > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                  > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                  > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                  monasticism).
                                                  >
                                                  < snip >
                                                  >
                                                  > Nikita
                                                • Gabriel Sanchez
                                                  I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this shift apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek prayer books also
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                                    I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this "shift"
                                                    apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek prayer
                                                    books also recognize the "Votive Offices." What, then, were their true
                                                    origin? I could certainly understand an argument that these offices came in
                                                    through the Greeks and were incorporated into Slavic books during or after
                                                    the seventeenth century. However, since the Old Believers seem to recognize
                                                    these offices, that would place their date even earlier--correct? Is the
                                                    argument that there was a mutual "penetration" of these offices? Also, if
                                                    that is true, I am also curious about Thursday, which is usually used to
                                                    commemorate St. Nicholas. Compared to his veneration in the East, his place
                                                    is distinctly reduced in the West. How is it that he is signaled out for
                                                    his own day over and against other Saints?

                                                    Just curious.


                                                    On 7/20/07, Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Nikita,
                                                    > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                    > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                    > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                    > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                    > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                    > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                    > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                    > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                    > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                    > have similar themes?
                                                    > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                    > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                    > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                    > Kenneth Doll
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita Simmons"
                                                    > <starina77@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                    > >
                                                    > < snip >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                    > for
                                                    > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                    > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                    > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                    > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                    > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                    > traditional
                                                    > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                    > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                    > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                    > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                    > monasticism).
                                                    > >
                                                    > < snip >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Nikita
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Dn. Sergius Miller
                                                    Dear Kenneth, Nikita appears to be talking about the Horologion (Chasoslov) which has votove offices for each day including Sunday so that someone in his cell
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                                      Dear Kenneth,

                                                      Nikita appears to be talking about the Horologion (Chasoslov) which
                                                      has votove offices for each day including Sunday so that someone in
                                                      his cell without the full compliment of liturgical books can serve
                                                      the services privately. Look at the Slavonic Great Chasoslov
                                                      published by Jordanville (not the English one) and at the votive
                                                      services for each day including the tone 6 Resurrection services for
                                                      Sunday.

                                                      In XC,
                                                      Dn. Sergius Miller




                                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Nikita,
                                                      > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                      > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                      > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                      > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.),
                                                      I
                                                      > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                      > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                      > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through
                                                      the
                                                      > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days
                                                      or
                                                      > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                      > have similar themes?
                                                      > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays?
                                                      Only
                                                      > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                      > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                      > Kenneth Doll
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                      > >
                                                      > < snip >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                      > for
                                                      > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                      > the
                                                      > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                      > the
                                                      > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book
                                                      of
                                                      > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                      > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter,
                                                      Canons
                                                      > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                      > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                      > traditional
                                                      > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the
                                                      integrity
                                                      > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall
                                                      decline
                                                      > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                      > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                      > monasticism).
                                                      > >
                                                      > < snip >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Nikita
                                                      >
                                                    • Nikita Simmons
                                                      ... Dear Kenneth, Sorry I was not more clear. Of course, the Octoechos is structured on the daily these that were mentioned (Monday for the Angels, etc.).
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Dear Nikita,
                                                        > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                        > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                        > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                        > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                        > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                        > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                        > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                        > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                        > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                        > have similar themes?

                                                        Dear Kenneth,

                                                        Sorry I was not more clear. Of course, the Octoechos is structured on
                                                        the daily these that were mentioned (Monday for the Angels, etc.).
                                                        Indeed, the Octoechos has separate services in each of the 8 Tones for
                                                        these weekday commemorations.

                                                        However, the "Votive Offices" which I referred to are rather late (and
                                                        very likely to be Uniate) inventions which came out of the
                                                        southwestern Russian lands sometime in the 1600s, and first appear in
                                                        the printed monastic prayer books printed in Kiev, Pochaev, and a few
                                                        other places. If you look in the Slavonic "Byzantine Rite" prayer
                                                        books currently being printed (or at least in the 20th century) coming
                                                        from Rome (particularly from the Grotta Ferrata monastery), you will
                                                        see what I'm referring to. (A few of the more modern Muscovite books
                                                        include these same or similar service schemes.) There are special
                                                        offices for each day of the week, which enable a monk to pray nearly a
                                                        full cycles of services in his cell. Similar to the Octoechos
                                                        services, these services are however not taken from the Octoechos, but
                                                        are "generic" services with stichera, troparia and kontakia, canons,
                                                        etc. selected from a variety of sources -- mostly from different
                                                        feasts found in the Menaion. They are "mongrel" or "hybrid" services,
                                                        with elements taken from any number of feast days.

                                                        The reason for these mongrel services is so that one can pray a full
                                                        cycle of services in one's cell without having to have access to a
                                                        copy of the Octoechos or Menaion. All you would need is a Horologion,
                                                        Psalter and the special Prayer Book with these "Votive Offices"
                                                        printed therein. -- Very handy, but this form of cell rule with such a
                                                        dependence on literary sources is probably not what the ancient desert
                                                        monastic fathers had in mind; gone are the simple recitation of the
                                                        Psalter and the Jesus Prayer, and instead there are highly intricate
                                                        solo services that require a far greater degree of literacy and
                                                        liturgical education than monks typically had access to in previous
                                                        centuries.

                                                        In XC,
                                                        Nikita

                                                        > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                        > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                        > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                        > Kenneth Doll
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                        > >
                                                        > < snip >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                        > for
                                                        > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                        > the
                                                        > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                        > the
                                                        > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                        > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                        > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                        > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                        > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                        > traditional
                                                        > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                        > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                        > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                        > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                        > monasticism).
                                                        > >
                                                        > < snip >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Nikita
                                                        >
                                                      • Nikita Simmons
                                                        ... shift ... prayer ... OK, now we have to be careful and begin to make some distinctions. The themes of Monday for the Angels , etc. are a very basic
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel Sanchez"
                                                          <gabriel.s.sanchez@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > I am also curious about this because, if I recall correctly, this
                                                          "shift"
                                                          > apparently occured in the Slavic lands. However, distinctly Greek
                                                          prayer
                                                          > books also recognize the "Votive Offices."

                                                          OK, now we have to be careful and begin to make some distinctions. The
                                                          themes of "Monday for the Angels", etc. are a very basic element of
                                                          the Palestinian weekday Octoechos system, which we all (Greeks, Slavs,
                                                          etc.) use in the daily Octoechos services.

                                                          When I use the term "Votive Offices", I am indicating the artificial
                                                          "hybrid" generic services which contain selections from throughout the
                                                          Church year, in order to conveniently celebrate full services in one's
                                                          cell. In these new monastic prayer books there is a full selection of
                                                          stichera and other hymns for the Angels which can be used on Mondays
                                                          when praying in the cells; etc., etc.

                                                          > What, then, were their true
                                                          > origin? I could certainly understand an argument that these offices
                                                          came in
                                                          > through the Greeks and were incorporated into Slavic books during or
                                                          after
                                                          > the seventeenth century.

                                                          Sorry, but the evidence seems to point to Slavic Uniate-influenced
                                                          sources. I've yet to see these "solo services" as I have described in
                                                          any Greek prayer books. I could be wrong, but until someone provides
                                                          conclusive proof of Greek origins, I remain quite skeptical. In
                                                          addition, I feel that Greek monasticism has stayed a bit closer to its
                                                          traditional roots than Russian monasticism, which had a major
                                                          disruption of its traditions from the time of Tsar Peter I to the
                                                          revival of St. Paisii Velichkovskii -- and one can argue that it never
                                                          fully emerged from its troubles until the fall of communism.

                                                          > However, since the Old Believers seem to recognize
                                                          > these offices, that would place their date even earlier--correct?

                                                          Sorry, this is not true. The Old Believers have never accepted
                                                          anything like these hybrid votive offices which I have discussed. Even
                                                          the Muscovite Church in the post-schism years was reluctant to import
                                                          Kievan prayer books and service books until well after the beginning
                                                          of the 18th century, as it was felt that there was too much influence
                                                          from the Unia and the westernizing influence of Petr Mogila, etc.

                                                          In XC,
                                                          Nikita

                                                          > Is the
                                                          > argument that there was a mutual "penetration" of these offices?
                                                          Also, if
                                                          > that is true, I am also curious about Thursday, which is usually used to
                                                          > commemorate St. Nicholas. Compared to his veneration in the East,
                                                          his place
                                                          > is distinctly reduced in the West. How is it that he is signaled
                                                          out for
                                                          > his own day over and against other Saints?
                                                          >
                                                          > Just curious.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > On 7/20/07, Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Dear Nikita,
                                                          > > I was re-reading your e-mail below and was reminded of a question
                                                          > > that I had when I first read it and forgot to answer.
                                                          > > When you mention special "Votive Offices" for each day of the week
                                                          > > (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John the Forerunner, etc.), I
                                                          > > think of the structure of the Octoechos and that these are the
                                                          > > dedications for the days of the week in that book.
                                                          > > Are you indicating that the Octoechos itself was modified through the
                                                          > > influence of the Unia to include these themes on the various days or
                                                          > > that there are other "Votive Offices" of which I am not aware that
                                                          > > have similar themes?
                                                          > > If the former, what did the Octoechos include for non-Sundays? Only
                                                          > > the stichera and canons of repentence (Mon., Tue.) and Crucifixion
                                                          > > (Wed., Fri.)? What about Thu. and Sat.?
                                                          > > Kenneth Doll
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com <ustav%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nikita
                                                          Simmons"
                                                          > > <starina77@> wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Dear James and Theophan,
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > < snip >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Also, through the influence of the Unia, special "Votive Offices"
                                                          > > for
                                                          > > > each day of the week (Monday for the Angels, Tuesday for st. John
                                                          > > the
                                                          > > > Forerunner, etc.) were pieced together from various services from
                                                          > > the
                                                          > > > Menaion and published together with monastic versions of the Book of
                                                          > > > the Hours. While previously monks did not pray a full cycle of
                                                          > > > services in their cells, but spent time reciting the Psalter, Canons
                                                          > > > and Jesus Prayers, now they started praying the communal services
                                                          > > > privately. I feel that this unfortunate departure from the
                                                          > > traditional
                                                          > > > mind-frame of monasticism has had a negative effect on the integrity
                                                          > > > of monastic ideals in Russia, and contributed to the overall decline
                                                          > > > of monasticism in Russia following Patriarch Nikon's reforms (and
                                                          > > > succession of Romanov attacks on the Church and especially
                                                          > > monasticism).
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > < snip >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Nikita
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                        • Kenneth Doll
                                                          Dear Nikita, Deacon Sergius, Thank you for your explanations. It is much clearer now. Kenneth Doll
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 22, 2007
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                                                            Dear Nikita, Deacon Sergius,
                                                            Thank you for your explanations. It is much clearer now.
                                                            Kenneth Doll
                                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.