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Re: [ustav] On the Renunciation of Errors in the Reception of Converts

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  • Ierei Kirill
    Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I m lost in here....could you explain where is that
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2006
      Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
      Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
      explain where is that comes from?

      Ierei Kirill

      --- Fr David Straut <frdavidstraut@...> wrote:

      > I've always done the appropriate Service of Renunciation with
      > converts - usually the night before their Baptism when I hear
      > their Life Confession. The only problem with these Services is
      > that there is no special renunciations for
      > Anglicans/Episcopalians. St Tikhon's Great Book of Needs also has
      > the Services in a pretty usuable form.
      >
      > Priest David Straut
      >
      >
      >
      > Philosoph <philosoph@...> wrote:
      > I was recently reading a number of items on the
      > topic of the reception of converts and the various issue relevant
      > to this. Because of this I also read the Hapgood where 2 offices
      > are given for the reception of converts on page 454 and page 467.
      > The former for Catholics and Lutherans by renunciation and
      > chrismation and the later for Jews, Mahometans and Heathens by
      > renunciation followed by full baptism. No, I am not trying to
      > start a provocative discussion on the validity or invalidity of
      > the former, or any sort of jurisdictional warfare.
      > What I am interested in knowing relative to this is whether the
      > renunciation of the former errors is actually something that is
      > still done. In general I have seen people having a full baptismal
      > service and some preliminary catechismal instruction, while I have
      > Never seen these renunciations. I am not seeking to condemn anyone
      > for omitting this or anything of the like, but I am wanting to
      > know whether this is commonly or uncommonly practiced?
      > Also, of course I am aware that the Hapgood's service book is
      > according to Russian tradition, so is this a common set of
      > renunciations or do the Greeks have a different one or are there
      > no formalized set for them? I suppose that the renunciation of
      > Satan & his all his pomp could be considered to cover all this. I
      > found these renunciations to be quite interesting as there is so
      > strong a denunciation of the errors of the various heterodox that
      > any sort of lukewarm dabbling in being Baptised would be much less
      > possible if these proceeded it. Also, is there an approximate date
      > when these particular renunciations would have been current from?
      >
      > I appreciate any comments relevant to this that might further
      > enlighten me on this topic.
      >
      > Reader Philosoph
      > St. Sophia
      > Victoria, BC Canada
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new
      > Yahoo! Mail.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


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    • Anna Voellmecke
      ... Yes. If a priest doesn t do it, he is remiss in his duties. AnnaV.
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
        At 11:15 PM 6/30/2006, you wrote:
        >
        > What I am interested in knowing relative to this is whether the
        > renunciation of the former errors is actually something that is still done.

        Yes. If a priest doesn't do it, he is remiss in his duties.

        AnnaV.
      • Christopher Orr
        ... When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you state: I was
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
          >
          > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
          > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
          > explain where is that comes from?
          >
          > Ierei Kirill
          >


          When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave
          a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you
          state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.

          Christopher
        • John Van Der Hoek
          Dear Christopher, Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox Church? Regards, John [a fellow ex-Lutheran] ... -- Dr John van der Hoek
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
            Dear Christopher,

            Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox Church?

            Regards,

            John

            [a fellow ex-Lutheran]




            Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:

            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
            > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
            > > explain where is that comes from?
            > >
            > > Ierei Kirill
            > >
            >
            >
            > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave
            > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you
            > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.
            >
            > Christopher
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Dr John van der Hoek
            Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
            University of Adelaide
            Adelaide, South Australia 5005
            AUSTRALIA

            Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
            Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
          • Ierei Kirill
            I m interested of where from this life confession cometh from, I couldn t find it in my trebnik and the whole idea of confessing that something is going to be
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
              I'm interested of where from this life confession cometh from, I
              couldn't find it in my trebnik and the whole idea of confessing that
              something is going to be washed away soon doesn't make much sence and
              actually IMHO, can not be considered as confession at all. What
              jurisdiction you have been Baptised in?

              Ierei Kirill

              --- Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
              > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could
              > you
              > > explain where is that comes from?
              > >
              > > Ierei Kirill
              > >
              >
              >
              > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I
              > gave
              > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason
              > you
              > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.
              >
              > Christopher
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • Ierei Kirill
              Perhaps term rebaptised is not correct, as Orthodox Church does not recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically it was his first
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
                Perhaps term "rebaptised" is not correct, as Orthodox Church does not
                recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically it
                was his first Baptism.

                Ierei Kirill


                --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:

                > Dear Christopher,
                >
                > Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox
                > Church?
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > John
                >
                > [a fellow ex-Lutheran]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                >
                > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of
                > the
                > > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could
                > you
                > > > explain where is that comes from?
                > > >
                > > > Ierei Kirill
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I
                > gave
                > > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the
                > reason you
                > > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the
                > absolution.
                > >
                > > Christopher
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Dr John van der Hoek
                > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                > University of Adelaide
                > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                > AUSTRALIA
                >
                > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                >


                Parish web site:
                http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox

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              • John Van Der Hoek
                Dear Ierei Kirill, Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From some other parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
                  Dear Ierei Kirill,

                  Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From some other
                  parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only. I understand
                  that most Orthodox Churches would not rebaptise Roman Catholics, Lutherans,
                  Anglicans [at least]. I understand that the Orthodox Church of the Patriarch
                  of Constantinople holds this position and I suppose that Orthodox Churches in
                  communion with this church would hold a similar position. I understand that if
                  an Orthodox Church does not recognise the baptism of another section of
                  Christendom, then ''rebaptism'' is not the appropriate term. I surmise from
                  your reply that you would not recognise the validity of Lutheran baptisms.
                  I do not think this is consistent with the understanding of Isabel Hapgood's
                  translation about these things, but I stand to be corrected.

                  In Christ, John



                  Quoting Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...>:

                  > Perhaps term "rebaptised" is not correct, as Orthodox Church does not
                  > recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically it
                  > was his first Baptism.
                  >
                  > Ierei Kirill
                  >
                  >
                  > --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dear Christopher,
                  > >
                  > > Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox
                  > > Church?
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > John
                  > >
                  > > [a fellow ex-Lutheran]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                  > >
                  > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of
                  > > the
                  > > > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could
                  > > you
                  > > > > explain where is that comes from?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ierei Kirill
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I
                  > > gave
                  > > > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the
                  > > reason you
                  > > > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the
                  > > absolution.
                  > > >
                  > > > Christopher
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Dr John van der Hoek
                  > > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                  > > University of Adelaide
                  > > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                  > > AUSTRALIA
                  > >
                  > > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                  > > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > Parish web site:
                  > http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >


                  --
                  Dr John van der Hoek
                  Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                  University of Adelaide
                  Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                  AUSTRALIA

                  Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                  Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                • Ierei Kirill
                  Dear John, The Church has different methods of the reception from outside, but even if one is recieved by Chrismation it doesn t mean that his/her prior
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
                    Dear John,

                    The Church has different methods of the reception from outside, but
                    even if one is recieved by Chrismation it doesn't mean that his/her
                    prior non-Orthodox baptism has been recognised as The Baptism. Just
                    an external form of itcan be recognized (if proper words are used),
                    that can be fulfilled at the Chrismation.
                    Unfortunatelly an iconomia of reception by Chrismation has been
                    rather abused, as it is never a norm, but exeption. The norm is Holy
                    Baptism, and it is based on simple doctrine that there is no
                    ecclesiastical Grace outside of the boundaries of the Church, thus if
                    baptism of heretics is not recognized as valid.
                    I heard about some documents signed by EP recently where they
                    affrim validity of the baptism by Lutherans and if you would have a
                    link to those documents online, I would be much appreciated.

                    Ierei Kirill
                    --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:

                    > Dear Ierei Kirill,
                    >
                    > Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From
                    > some other
                    > parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only. I
                    > understand
                    > that most Orthodox Churches would not rebaptise Roman Catholics,
                    > Lutherans,
                    > Anglicans [at least]. I understand that the Orthodox Church of the
                    > Patriarch
                    > of Constantinople holds this position and I suppose that Orthodox
                    > Churches in
                    > communion with this church would hold a similar position. I
                    > understand that if
                    > an Orthodox Church does not recognise the baptism of another
                    > section of
                    > Christendom, then ''rebaptism'' is not the appropriate term. I
                    > surmise from
                    > your reply that you would not recognise the validity of Lutheran
                    > baptisms.
                    > I do not think this is consistent with the understanding of Isabel
                    > Hapgood's
                    > translation about these things, but I stand to be corrected.
                    >
                    > In Christ, John
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Quoting Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...>:
                    >
                    > > Perhaps term "rebaptised" is not correct, as Orthodox Church does
                    > not
                    > > recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically
                    > it
                    > > was his first Baptism.
                    > >
                    > > Ierei Kirill
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Dear Christopher,
                    > > >
                    > > > Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox
                    > > > Church?
                    > > >
                    > > > Regards,
                    > > >
                    > > > John
                    > > >
                    > > > [a fellow ex-Lutheran]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                    > > >
                    > > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery
                    > of
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in
                    > here....could
                    > > > you
                    > > > > > explain where is that comes from?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Ierei Kirill
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from
                    > Lutheranism, I
                    > > > gave
                    > > > > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the
                    > > > reason you
                    > > > > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the
                    > > > absolution.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Christopher
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --
                    > > > Dr John van der Hoek
                    > > > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                    > > > University of Adelaide
                    > > > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                    > > > AUSTRALIA
                    > > >
                    > > > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                    > > > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Parish web site:
                    > > http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Dr John van der Hoek
                    > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                    > University of Adelaide
                    > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                    > AUSTRALIA
                    >
                    > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                    > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                    >


                    Parish web site:
                    http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox

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                  • emrys@globe.net.nz
                    If you read the pre-revolutionary Russian trebniki (priest s Book of Services) you will find that the lifetime confession of sins is done prior to the actual
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
                      If you read the pre-revolutionary Russian trebniki (priest's Book of
                      Services) you will find that the lifetime confession of sins is done prior
                      to the actual Service of Reception for Roman Catholics, Lutherans and
                      Armenians. The confession is extra-liturgical; it is not a "Service" and
                      it is not completed with the Absolution.

                      The Service of Reception which can be the next day or the same day consists
                      of the Renunciations, the Creed, one or two prayers and then, before
                      Chrismation, the Absolution (which completes the confession.) I suppose
                      some would still argue that the sacramental Absolution is given prior to
                      Chrismation and is taking place over a non-Orthodox? Perhaps we should not
                      be so scrupulous in our thinking and not be overly concerned about
                      dissecting a Service which combines several things.

                      For an example of this Russian practice in English, please see Hapgood's
                      Service Book (which carries the blessing of Patriarch Saint Tikhon.) My own
                      ROCA diocese of Australia and New Zealand usually, but not always, follows
                      the various Services of Reception as given by Hapgood and blessed by the
                      Martyr-Patriarch.

                      Fr Ambrose
                      _________
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Christopher Orr" <xcjorr@...>
                      To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:55 AM
                      Subject: [ustav] Re: On the Renunciation of Errors in the Reception of
                      Converts


                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
                      > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
                      > > explain where is that comes from?
                      > >
                      > > Ierei Kirill
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave
                      > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you
                      > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.
                      >
                      > Christopher
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Michel Englert
                      ... The confession is a mandatory part of the procedure when baptising adults (I suppose from the age of 7). As before the Baptism, the person is not part of
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 2, 2006
                        > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
                        > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
                        > explain where is that comes from?

                        The confession is a mandatory part of the procedure when baptising
                        adults (I suppose from the age of 7).

                        As before the Baptism, the person is not part of the Church yet, the
                        confession is done in a different way than it is done with baptised
                        orthodox people.

                        When a baptised orthodox confesses his sins, he also gets the
                        absolution (?) (ostavlenie grehov) afterwards which is given by the
                        priest in by the power given by the Lord to the Apostles. From the
                        orthodox point of view, the absolution is the moment when the Mystery
                        of the remission takes place.

                        When a person makes his "Live Confession" before the Baptism, the
                        absolution is skipped. This is done for two reason: first, because the
                        person is not yet member of the Church, and second, because he/she
                        doesn't need to get the absolution because he/she is going to be
                        baptised soon. The Baptism is the first Mystery that is given in
                        remission of the sins.

                        So there is in fact no Mystery of the Church given to non-Orthodox
                        (non-baptised people) other than the Baptism itself, of course.

                        Some more liberal priests may skip the confession before the Baptism,
                        as they may also give the absolution without hearing any confession. In
                        both cases this doesn't of course make the remission "automatically"
                        invalid, but makes it questionable, at first, because the person skips
                        the "act of repentance" that is the confession, witch lets his
                        repentance to his own responsibility, and second, because the priest
                        gives the remission in an "blind" way, without having been witness of
                        the act of repentance.

                        Have a nice day,
                        Michel.
                      • Anna Voellmecke
                        ... The word rebaptize , as you mention later in your post, is incorrect. What you probably meant to say is that the void and ineffective heterodox rite, can
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 2, 2006
                          At 08:06 PM 7/1/2006, you wrote:


                          >Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From some other
                          >parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only. I understand
                          >that most Orthodox Churches would not rebaptise Roman Catholics, Lutherans,
                          >Anglicans [at least].

                          The word "rebaptize", as you mention later in your post, is
                          incorrect. What you probably meant to say is that the void and
                          ineffective heterodox rite, can be filled with that grace it lacked
                          by whatever means economia is used in those cases. In such cases an
                          Orthodox baptism is not performed. That is a universal Orthodox
                          position. Unfortunately in the last few decades, that important
                          distinction is often glossed over and not explained, leaving the
                          impression that "accepting" a non-Orthodox baptism means it was a
                          *real* baptism. I once alarmed a Greek Orthodox presbytera by
                          explaining that to her. I recall being a little freaked that a
                          priest's wife would not have learned that basic bit of Orthodox
                          theology, but I later learned that the same ignorance poor Presbytera
                          had is very wide spread in certain circles -- especially where
                          economia is exercised as a matter of course and a full baptism is not
                          presented as an option.

                          Anna V.
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