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Re: [ustav] On the Renunciation of Errors in the Reception of Converts

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  • Ierei Kirill
    Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I m lost in here....could you explain where is that
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2006
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      Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
      Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
      explain where is that comes from?

      Ierei Kirill

      --- Fr David Straut <frdavidstraut@...> wrote:

      > I've always done the appropriate Service of Renunciation with
      > converts - usually the night before their Baptism when I hear
      > their Life Confession. The only problem with these Services is
      > that there is no special renunciations for
      > Anglicans/Episcopalians. St Tikhon's Great Book of Needs also has
      > the Services in a pretty usuable form.
      >
      > Priest David Straut
      >
      >
      >
      > Philosoph <philosoph@...> wrote:
      > I was recently reading a number of items on the
      > topic of the reception of converts and the various issue relevant
      > to this. Because of this I also read the Hapgood where 2 offices
      > are given for the reception of converts on page 454 and page 467.
      > The former for Catholics and Lutherans by renunciation and
      > chrismation and the later for Jews, Mahometans and Heathens by
      > renunciation followed by full baptism. No, I am not trying to
      > start a provocative discussion on the validity or invalidity of
      > the former, or any sort of jurisdictional warfare.
      > What I am interested in knowing relative to this is whether the
      > renunciation of the former errors is actually something that is
      > still done. In general I have seen people having a full baptismal
      > service and some preliminary catechismal instruction, while I have
      > Never seen these renunciations. I am not seeking to condemn anyone
      > for omitting this or anything of the like, but I am wanting to
      > know whether this is commonly or uncommonly practiced?
      > Also, of course I am aware that the Hapgood's service book is
      > according to Russian tradition, so is this a common set of
      > renunciations or do the Greeks have a different one or are there
      > no formalized set for them? I suppose that the renunciation of
      > Satan & his all his pomp could be considered to cover all this. I
      > found these renunciations to be quite interesting as there is so
      > strong a denunciation of the errors of the various heterodox that
      > any sort of lukewarm dabbling in being Baptised would be much less
      > possible if these proceeded it. Also, is there an approximate date
      > when these particular renunciations would have been current from?
      >
      > I appreciate any comments relevant to this that might further
      > enlighten me on this topic.
      >
      > Reader Philosoph
      > St. Sophia
      > Victoria, BC Canada
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new
      > Yahoo! Mail.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


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    • Ierei Kirill
      Well, one have to keep in mind that heretics of the beginning of the 20th Century (Time of Hapgood translation) were quiet different from contemporary one s.
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 30, 2006
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        Well, one have to keep in mind that heretics of the beginning of the
        20th Century (Time of Hapgood translation) were quiet different from
        contemporary one's. It was no gay or women clergy and bishops, so
        definatelly matters of receptions become different and it was
        reflected in decision of the Synod of ROCOR in 1971 to Baptise those
        who came from Roman Catholicism, thus all other splinters from RC's
        would fall under the same cathegory.

        Ierei Kirill

        --- Philosoph <philosoph@...> wrote:

        > I was recently reading a number of items on the topic of the
        > reception of converts and the various issue relevant to this.
        > Because of this I also read the Hapgood where 2 offices are given
        > for the reception of converts on page 454 and page 467. The former
        > for Catholics and Lutherans by renunciation and chrismation and the
        > later for Jews, Mahometans and Heathens by renunciation followed by
        > full baptism. No, I am not trying to start a provocative
        > discussion on the validity or invalidity of the former, or any sort
        > of jurisdictional warfare.
        > What I am interested in knowing relative to this is whether the
        > renunciation of the former errors is actually something that is
        > still done. In general I have seen people having a full baptismal
        > service and some preliminary catechismal instruction, while I have
        > Never seen these renunciations. I am not seeking to condemn anyone
        > for omitting this or anything of the like, but I am wanting to know
        > whether this is commonly or uncommonly practiced?
        > Also, of course I am aware that the Hapgood's service book is
        > according to Russian tradition, so is this a common set of
        > renunciations or do the Greeks have a different one or are there no
        > formalized set for them? I suppose that the renunciation of Satan
        > & his all his pomp could be considered to cover all this. I found
        > these renunciations to be quite interesting as there is so strong a
        > denunciation of the errors of the various heterodox that any sort
        > of lukewarm dabbling in being Baptised would be much less possible
        > if these proceeded it. Also, is there an approximate date when
        > these particular renunciations would have been current from?
        >
        > I appreciate any comments relevant to this that might further
        > enlighten me on this topic.
        >
        > Reader Philosoph
        > St. Sophia
        > Victoria, BC Canada
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


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      • Anna Voellmecke
        ... Yes. If a priest doesn t do it, he is remiss in his duties. AnnaV.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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          At 11:15 PM 6/30/2006, you wrote:
          >
          > What I am interested in knowing relative to this is whether the
          > renunciation of the former errors is actually something that is still done.

          Yes. If a priest doesn't do it, he is remiss in his duties.

          AnnaV.
        • Christopher Orr
          ... When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you state: I was
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
            > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
            > explain where is that comes from?
            >
            > Ierei Kirill
            >


            When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave
            a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you
            state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.

            Christopher
          • John Van Der Hoek
            Dear Christopher, Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox Church? Regards, John [a fellow ex-Lutheran] ... -- Dr John van der Hoek
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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              Dear Christopher,

              Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox Church?

              Regards,

              John

              [a fellow ex-Lutheran]




              Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:

              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
              > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
              > > explain where is that comes from?
              > >
              > > Ierei Kirill
              > >
              >
              >
              > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave
              > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you
              > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.
              >
              > Christopher
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Dr John van der Hoek
              Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
              University of Adelaide
              Adelaide, South Australia 5005
              AUSTRALIA

              Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
              Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
            • Ierei Kirill
              I m interested of where from this life confession cometh from, I couldn t find it in my trebnik and the whole idea of confessing that something is going to be
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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                I'm interested of where from this life confession cometh from, I
                couldn't find it in my trebnik and the whole idea of confessing that
                something is going to be washed away soon doesn't make much sence and
                actually IMHO, can not be considered as confession at all. What
                jurisdiction you have been Baptised in?

                Ierei Kirill

                --- Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
                > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could
                > you
                > > explain where is that comes from?
                > >
                > > Ierei Kirill
                > >
                >
                >
                > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I
                > gave
                > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason
                > you
                > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.
                >
                > Christopher
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • Ierei Kirill
                Perhaps term rebaptised is not correct, as Orthodox Church does not recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically it was his first
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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                  Perhaps term "rebaptised" is not correct, as Orthodox Church does not
                  recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically it
                  was his first Baptism.

                  Ierei Kirill


                  --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:

                  > Dear Christopher,
                  >
                  > Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox
                  > Church?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > John
                  >
                  > [a fellow ex-Lutheran]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                  >
                  > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of
                  > the
                  > > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could
                  > you
                  > > > explain where is that comes from?
                  > > >
                  > > > Ierei Kirill
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I
                  > gave
                  > > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the
                  > reason you
                  > > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the
                  > absolution.
                  > >
                  > > Christopher
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Dr John van der Hoek
                  > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                  > University of Adelaide
                  > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                  > AUSTRALIA
                  >
                  > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                  > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                  >


                  Parish web site:
                  http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox

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                • John Van Der Hoek
                  Dear Ierei Kirill, Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From some other parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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                    Dear Ierei Kirill,

                    Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From some other
                    parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only. I understand
                    that most Orthodox Churches would not rebaptise Roman Catholics, Lutherans,
                    Anglicans [at least]. I understand that the Orthodox Church of the Patriarch
                    of Constantinople holds this position and I suppose that Orthodox Churches in
                    communion with this church would hold a similar position. I understand that if
                    an Orthodox Church does not recognise the baptism of another section of
                    Christendom, then ''rebaptism'' is not the appropriate term. I surmise from
                    your reply that you would not recognise the validity of Lutheran baptisms.
                    I do not think this is consistent with the understanding of Isabel Hapgood's
                    translation about these things, but I stand to be corrected.

                    In Christ, John



                    Quoting Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...>:

                    > Perhaps term "rebaptised" is not correct, as Orthodox Church does not
                    > recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically it
                    > was his first Baptism.
                    >
                    > Ierei Kirill
                    >
                    >
                    > --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear Christopher,
                    > >
                    > > Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox
                    > > Church?
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > >
                    > > John
                    > >
                    > > [a fellow ex-Lutheran]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                    > >
                    > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of
                    > > the
                    > > > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could
                    > > you
                    > > > > explain where is that comes from?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ierei Kirill
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I
                    > > gave
                    > > > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the
                    > > reason you
                    > > > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the
                    > > absolution.
                    > > >
                    > > > Christopher
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Dr John van der Hoek
                    > > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                    > > University of Adelaide
                    > > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                    > > AUSTRALIA
                    > >
                    > > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                    > > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Parish web site:
                    > http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >


                    --
                    Dr John van der Hoek
                    Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                    University of Adelaide
                    Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                    AUSTRALIA

                    Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                    Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                  • Ierei Kirill
                    Dear John, The Church has different methods of the reception from outside, but even if one is recieved by Chrismation it doesn t mean that his/her prior
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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                      Dear John,

                      The Church has different methods of the reception from outside, but
                      even if one is recieved by Chrismation it doesn't mean that his/her
                      prior non-Orthodox baptism has been recognised as The Baptism. Just
                      an external form of itcan be recognized (if proper words are used),
                      that can be fulfilled at the Chrismation.
                      Unfortunatelly an iconomia of reception by Chrismation has been
                      rather abused, as it is never a norm, but exeption. The norm is Holy
                      Baptism, and it is based on simple doctrine that there is no
                      ecclesiastical Grace outside of the boundaries of the Church, thus if
                      baptism of heretics is not recognized as valid.
                      I heard about some documents signed by EP recently where they
                      affrim validity of the baptism by Lutherans and if you would have a
                      link to those documents online, I would be much appreciated.

                      Ierei Kirill
                      --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:

                      > Dear Ierei Kirill,
                      >
                      > Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From
                      > some other
                      > parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only. I
                      > understand
                      > that most Orthodox Churches would not rebaptise Roman Catholics,
                      > Lutherans,
                      > Anglicans [at least]. I understand that the Orthodox Church of the
                      > Patriarch
                      > of Constantinople holds this position and I suppose that Orthodox
                      > Churches in
                      > communion with this church would hold a similar position. I
                      > understand that if
                      > an Orthodox Church does not recognise the baptism of another
                      > section of
                      > Christendom, then ''rebaptism'' is not the appropriate term. I
                      > surmise from
                      > your reply that you would not recognise the validity of Lutheran
                      > baptisms.
                      > I do not think this is consistent with the understanding of Isabel
                      > Hapgood's
                      > translation about these things, but I stand to be corrected.
                      >
                      > In Christ, John
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Quoting Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...>:
                      >
                      > > Perhaps term "rebaptised" is not correct, as Orthodox Church does
                      > not
                      > > recognize baptism outside of the Church as Baptism. So basically
                      > it
                      > > was his first Baptism.
                      > >
                      > > Ierei Kirill
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- John Van Der Hoek <john.vanderhoek@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Dear Christopher,
                      > > >
                      > > > Were you rebaptised when you were received into the Orthodox
                      > > > Church?
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards,
                      > > >
                      > > > John
                      > > >
                      > > > [a fellow ex-Lutheran]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                      > > >
                      > > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery
                      > of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in
                      > here....could
                      > > > you
                      > > > > > explain where is that comes from?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Ierei Kirill
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from
                      > Lutheranism, I
                      > > > gave
                      > > > > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the
                      > > > reason you
                      > > > > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the
                      > > > absolution.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Christopher
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > Dr John van der Hoek
                      > > > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                      > > > University of Adelaide
                      > > > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                      > > > AUSTRALIA
                      > > >
                      > > > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                      > > > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Parish web site:
                      > > http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Dr John van der Hoek
                      > Discipline of Applied Mathematics,
                      > University of Adelaide
                      > Adelaide, South Australia 5005
                      > AUSTRALIA
                      >
                      > Tel: +61-8-8303-5903
                      > Fax: +61-8-8303-3696
                      >


                      Parish web site:
                      http://www.freewebs.com/rusorthodox

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                    • emrys@globe.net.nz
                      If you read the pre-revolutionary Russian trebniki (priest s Book of Services) you will find that the lifetime confession of sins is done prior to the actual
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 1, 2006
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                        If you read the pre-revolutionary Russian trebniki (priest's Book of
                        Services) you will find that the lifetime confession of sins is done prior
                        to the actual Service of Reception for Roman Catholics, Lutherans and
                        Armenians. The confession is extra-liturgical; it is not a "Service" and
                        it is not completed with the Absolution.

                        The Service of Reception which can be the next day or the same day consists
                        of the Renunciations, the Creed, one or two prayers and then, before
                        Chrismation, the Absolution (which completes the confession.) I suppose
                        some would still argue that the sacramental Absolution is given prior to
                        Chrismation and is taking place over a non-Orthodox? Perhaps we should not
                        be so scrupulous in our thinking and not be overly concerned about
                        dissecting a Service which combines several things.

                        For an example of this Russian practice in English, please see Hapgood's
                        Service Book (which carries the blessing of Patriarch Saint Tikhon.) My own
                        ROCA diocese of Australia and New Zealand usually, but not always, follows
                        the various Services of Reception as given by Hapgood and blessed by the
                        Martyr-Patriarch.

                        Fr Ambrose
                        _________
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Christopher Orr" <xcjorr@...>
                        To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:55 AM
                        Subject: [ustav] Re: On the Renunciation of Errors in the Reception of
                        Converts


                        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Ierei Kirill <kirbart@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
                        > > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
                        > > explain where is that comes from?
                        > >
                        > > Ierei Kirill
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > When I was baptized into the Orthodox Church from Lutheranism, I gave
                        > a life confession. No absolution was given for exactly the reason you
                        > state: I was not yet Orthodox. Baptism itself was the absolution.
                        >
                        > Christopher
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Michel Englert
                        ... The confession is a mandatory part of the procedure when baptising adults (I suppose from the age of 7). As before the Baptism, the person is not part of
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 2, 2006
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                          > Sounds rather strange.. what kind of confession ( Mystery of the
                          > Church) can be given to non Orthodox? I'm lost in here....could you
                          > explain where is that comes from?

                          The confession is a mandatory part of the procedure when baptising
                          adults (I suppose from the age of 7).

                          As before the Baptism, the person is not part of the Church yet, the
                          confession is done in a different way than it is done with baptised
                          orthodox people.

                          When a baptised orthodox confesses his sins, he also gets the
                          absolution (?) (ostavlenie grehov) afterwards which is given by the
                          priest in by the power given by the Lord to the Apostles. From the
                          orthodox point of view, the absolution is the moment when the Mystery
                          of the remission takes place.

                          When a person makes his "Live Confession" before the Baptism, the
                          absolution is skipped. This is done for two reason: first, because the
                          person is not yet member of the Church, and second, because he/she
                          doesn't need to get the absolution because he/she is going to be
                          baptised soon. The Baptism is the first Mystery that is given in
                          remission of the sins.

                          So there is in fact no Mystery of the Church given to non-Orthodox
                          (non-baptised people) other than the Baptism itself, of course.

                          Some more liberal priests may skip the confession before the Baptism,
                          as they may also give the absolution without hearing any confession. In
                          both cases this doesn't of course make the remission "automatically"
                          invalid, but makes it questionable, at first, because the person skips
                          the "act of repentance" that is the confession, witch lets his
                          repentance to his own responsibility, and second, because the priest
                          gives the remission in an "blind" way, without having been witness of
                          the act of repentance.

                          Have a nice day,
                          Michel.
                        • Anna Voellmecke
                          ... The word rebaptize , as you mention later in your post, is incorrect. What you probably meant to say is that the void and ineffective heterodox rite, can
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 2, 2006
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                            At 08:06 PM 7/1/2006, you wrote:


                            >Not all parts of the Orthodox Church would accept this view. From some other
                            >parts of Chritendom converts are received by Christmation only. I understand
                            >that most Orthodox Churches would not rebaptise Roman Catholics, Lutherans,
                            >Anglicans [at least].

                            The word "rebaptize", as you mention later in your post, is
                            incorrect. What you probably meant to say is that the void and
                            ineffective heterodox rite, can be filled with that grace it lacked
                            by whatever means economia is used in those cases. In such cases an
                            Orthodox baptism is not performed. That is a universal Orthodox
                            position. Unfortunately in the last few decades, that important
                            distinction is often glossed over and not explained, leaving the
                            impression that "accepting" a non-Orthodox baptism means it was a
                            *real* baptism. I once alarmed a Greek Orthodox presbytera by
                            explaining that to her. I recall being a little freaked that a
                            priest's wife would not have learned that basic bit of Orthodox
                            theology, but I later learned that the same ignorance poor Presbytera
                            had is very wide spread in certain circles -- especially where
                            economia is exercised as a matter of course and a full baptism is not
                            presented as an option.

                            Anna V.
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