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Kneeling prayers

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  • andersonbradley
    Dear all, Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the lengthy kneeling prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our servcies? It strikes
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 13, 2006
      Dear all,

      Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the lengthy kneeling
      prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our servcies? It
      strikes me as being quite unique in our liturgical cycle. We make many
      transitions during the liturgical year of one kind or another, yet I
      can't, off the top of my head, think of another service in the regular
      daily cycle where numerous long special prayers are incorporated in
      this manner.

      Bradley (Edward) Anderson
    • nikifor54
      Although I m not certain if this addresses your questions in entirety, the chapter in Bulgakov regarding Pentecost does comment on the Vespers service
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 13, 2006
        Although I'm not certain if this addresses your questions in entirety,
        the chapter in Bulgakov regarding Pentecost does comment on the
        Vespers service specifically, and is quite interesting. It is
        available online in English:
        http://www.transfigcathedral.org/faith/Bulgakov/0608.pdf

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear all,
        >
        > Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the lengthy
        kneeling
        > prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our servcies? It
        > strikes me as being quite unique in our liturgical cycle. We make
        many
        > transitions during the liturgical year of one kind or another, yet I
        > can't, off the top of my head, think of another service in the
        regular
        > daily cycle where numerous long special prayers are incorporated in
        > this manner.
        >
        > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
        >
      • stephen_r1937
        Just this week someone asked me the same question. If there is a historical study of the services of Pentecost, I have not seen it. The attribution of these
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 14, 2006
          Just this week someone asked me the same question. If there is a
          historical study of the services of Pentecost, I have not seen it. The
          attribution of these prayers to St Basil the Great indicates that they
          are approximately of the same age as the conciliar prohibitions of
          kneeling during the Fifty Days (which is not to say that the custom of
          not kneeling during this season, and the custom of closing it with
          lengthy prayer said kneeling, are not older even than that). Also,
          every other Eastern rite--the Armenian, the East-Syrian, the West-
          Syrian, the Maronite, the Coptic, and I expect, although I have not
          yet been able to confirm it, the Ethiopic--has such prayers,
          indicating that the practice antedates the schisms that divide them
          from us, and that it is likely to have originated in Jerusalem. The
          Armenian prayers are ascribed to St John Chrysostom.

          Perhaps someone can shed further light on the history of these prayers.

          Stephen

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear all,
          >
          > Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the lengthy
          kneeling
          > prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our servcies? It
          > strikes me as being quite unique in our liturgical cycle. We make
          many
          > transitions during the liturgical year of one kind or another, yet I
          > can't, off the top of my head, think of another service in the
          regular
          > daily cycle where numerous long special prayers are incorporated in
          > this manner.
          >
          > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
          >
        • Sergius Miller
          ... wrote: Dear Stephen, I have a vague recollection of seeing a reference to some sort of study -- perhaps in Oreintalia Christiana Periodica -- on this
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 14, 2006
            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@...>
            wrote:

            Dear Stephen,
            I have a vague recollection of seeing a reference to some sort of
            study -- perhaps in Oreintalia Christiana Periodica -- on this
            kneeling rite, perhaps only in the Coptic Rite.

            My own suspicion is that these prayers pre-date the extension of the
            day of Pentecost to the following week, i.e., before this was a fast
            free week w/Pentecost texts. They are more concerned with the
            forgiveness of our sins (the return of penitential practices), the
            deliverance wrought in Jesus Christ, and the repose of the dead (the
            end of the paschal period)than with the Holy Spirit.

            Sergius Miller
            >
            > Just this week someone asked me the same question. If there is a
            > historical study of the services of Pentecost, I have not seen it.
            The
            > attribution of these prayers to St Basil the Great indicates that
            they
            > are approximately of the same age as the conciliar prohibitions of
            > kneeling during the Fifty Days (which is not to say that the custom
            of
            > not kneeling during this season, and the custom of closing it with
            > lengthy prayer said kneeling, are not older even than that). Also,
            > every other Eastern rite--the Armenian, the East-Syrian, the West-
            > Syrian, the Maronite, the Coptic, and I expect, although I have not
            > yet been able to confirm it, the Ethiopic--has such prayers,
            > indicating that the practice antedates the schisms that divide them
            > from us, and that it is likely to have originated in Jerusalem. The
            > Armenian prayers are ascribed to St John Chrysostom.
            >
            > Perhaps someone can shed further light on the history of these
            prayers.
            >
            > Stephen
            >
            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear all,
            > >
            > > Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the lengthy
            > kneeling
            > > prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our servcies?
            It
            > > strikes me as being quite unique in our liturgical cycle. We
            make
            > many
            > > transitions during the liturgical year of one kind or another,
            yet I
            > > can't, off the top of my head, think of another service in the
            > regular
            > > daily cycle where numerous long special prayers are incorporated
            in
            > > this manner.
            > >
            > > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
            > >
            >
          • Sergius Miller
            ... wrote: That should be Orientalia. Sergius ... the ... fast ... (the ... it. ... that ... of ... custom ... with ... Also, ... West- ... not ... them ...
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 14, 2006
              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@...>
              wrote:

              That should be "Orientalia."

              Sergius


              >
              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@>
              > wrote:
              >
              > Dear Stephen,
              > I have a vague recollection of seeing a reference to some sort of
              > study -- perhaps in Oreintalia Christiana Periodica -- on this
              > kneeling rite, perhaps only in the Coptic Rite.
              >
              > My own suspicion is that these prayers pre-date the extension of
              the
              > day of Pentecost to the following week, i.e., before this was a
              fast
              > free week w/Pentecost texts. They are more concerned with the
              > forgiveness of our sins (the return of penitential practices), the
              > deliverance wrought in Jesus Christ, and the repose of the dead
              (the
              > end of the paschal period)than with the Holy Spirit.
              >
              > Sergius Miller
              > >
              > > Just this week someone asked me the same question. If there is a
              > > historical study of the services of Pentecost, I have not seen
              it.
              > The
              > > attribution of these prayers to St Basil the Great indicates
              that
              > they
              > > are approximately of the same age as the conciliar prohibitions
              of
              > > kneeling during the Fifty Days (which is not to say that the
              custom
              > of
              > > not kneeling during this season, and the custom of closing it
              with
              > > lengthy prayer said kneeling, are not older even than that).
              Also,
              > > every other Eastern rite--the Armenian, the East-Syrian, the
              West-
              > > Syrian, the Maronite, the Coptic, and I expect, although I have
              not
              > > yet been able to confirm it, the Ethiopic--has such prayers,
              > > indicating that the practice antedates the schisms that divide
              them
              > > from us, and that it is likely to have originated in Jerusalem.
              The
              > > Armenian prayers are ascribed to St John Chrysostom.
              > >
              > > Perhaps someone can shed further light on the history of these
              > prayers.
              > >
              > > Stephen
              > >
              > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley"
              <andersonbradley@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dear all,
              > > >
              > > > Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the lengthy
              > > kneeling
              > > > prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our
              servcies?
              > It
              > > > strikes me as being quite unique in our liturgical cycle. We
              > make
              > > many
              > > > transitions during the liturgical year of one kind or another,
              > yet I
              > > > can't, off the top of my head, think of another service in the
              > > regular
              > > > daily cycle where numerous long special prayers are
              incorporated
              > in
              > > > this manner.
              > > >
              > > > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • stephen_r1937
              That s where I would expect it, although perhaps one of the Greek liturgiologists has published something in Greek. I ll see if I can pin it down. Stephen ...
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 15, 2006
                That's where I would expect it, although perhaps one of the Greek
                liturgiologists has published something in Greek. I'll see if I can
                pin it down.

                Stephen

                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@>
                > wrote:
                >
                > That should be "Orientalia."
                >
                > Sergius
                >
                >
                > >
                > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen_r1937@>
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Stephen,
                > > I have a vague recollection of seeing a reference to some sort
                of
                > > study -- perhaps in Oreintalia Christiana Periodica -- on this
                > > kneeling rite, perhaps only in the Coptic Rite.
                > >
                > > My own suspicion is that these prayers pre-date the extension of
                > the
                > > day of Pentecost to the following week, i.e., before this was a
                > fast
                > > free week w/Pentecost texts. They are more concerned with the
                > > forgiveness of our sins (the return of penitential practices),
                the
                > > deliverance wrought in Jesus Christ, and the repose of the dead
                > (the
                > > end of the paschal period)than with the Holy Spirit.
                > >
                > > Sergius Miller
                > > >
                > > > Just this week someone asked me the same question. If there is
                a
                > > > historical study of the services of Pentecost, I have not seen
                > it.
                > > The
                > > > attribution of these prayers to St Basil the Great indicates
                > that
                > > they
                > > > are approximately of the same age as the conciliar
                prohibitions
                > of
                > > > kneeling during the Fifty Days (which is not to say that the
                > custom
                > > of
                > > > not kneeling during this season, and the custom of closing it
                > with
                > > > lengthy prayer said kneeling, are not older even than that).
                > Also,
                > > > every other Eastern rite--the Armenian, the East-Syrian, the
                > West-
                > > > Syrian, the Maronite, the Coptic, and I expect, although I
                have
                > not
                > > > yet been able to confirm it, the Ethiopic--has such prayers,
                > > > indicating that the practice antedates the schisms that divide
                > them
                > > > from us, and that it is likely to have originated in
                Jerusalem.
                > The
                > > > Armenian prayers are ascribed to St John Chrysostom.
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps someone can shed further light on the history of these
                > > prayers.
                > > >
                > > > Stephen
                > > >
                > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley"
                > <andersonbradley@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Dear all,
                > > > >
                > > > > Does anyone know the history of how,when, and why the
                lengthy
                > > > kneeling
                > > > > prayers at Pentecost began to be incorporated into our
                > servcies?
                > > It
                > > > > strikes me as being quite unique in our liturgical cycle.
                We
                > > make
                > > > many
                > > > > transitions during the liturgical year of one kind or
                another,
                > > yet I
                > > > > can't, off the top of my head, think of another service in
                the
                > > > regular
                > > > > daily cycle where numerous long special prayers are
                > incorporated
                > > in
                > > > > this manner.
                > > > >
                > > > > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • readerbenedict
                This subject came up a few years ago; here is part of a message I posted then (2000): ...parts of come from the Asmatike Akolouthia [or
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 15, 2006
                  This subject came up a few years ago; here is part of a message I
                  posted then (2000):


                  "...parts of <these prayers> come from the 'Asmatike Akolouthia' [or
                  'Sung Akolouthia'] of the Great Church: those parts of the prayers
                  which follow the rubric 'And the priest addeth...' (or however it may
                  be translated in any given book); i.e., the ones that begin 1.
                  'Blessed art Thou, O Lord, almighty Master...'; 2. 'Lord, O Lord,
                  Thou hast delivered us from every arrow that flieth by day...'; and 3.
                  'O God, who art great and eternal...'.

                  "Vespers in the Great Church before Latin conquest in 1204 had three
                  antiphons after the entrance; these prayers were the prayers of the
                  antiphons. If I remember correctly, they appear in manuscripts from
                  the 10th century, and record a usage already old."

                  My sources go back to the 1970's, and I imagine that a great deal of
                  work has been done since; nevertheless, here is the bibliographical
                  information: Miguel Arranz, SJ. "Les prières sacerdotales des vêpres
                  byzantines." _Orientalia Christiana Periodica 37_ (Rome: Pontificium
                  Institutum Orientalium Studiorum, 1971), pp. 85-124.

                  When and whence the other prayers came into the service, I do not
                  know. To me it seems clear that they were grafted into the service,
                  since they really do not follow the structure of Vespers. Similarly,
                  the Twelve Passion Gospels seem a graft into Matins, whose usual
                  structure they interrupt; I read somewhere -- sorry, I don't have the
                  bibliographical reference for this -- that the Passion Gospels were
                  originally from Jerusalem, where they were read at twelve stations as
                  a procession made its way around the city to the various spots
                  associated with Christ's Passion. If anyone has certain knowledge of
                  this, it would be a kindness to share it.

                  ~BC
                • Sergius Miller
                  ... wrote: Benedict, I had forgotten about this entry. I suspect that these kneeling prayers were added before the prayers you name in the Sung Office. Then
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 15, 2006
                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "readerbenedict" <bill.churchill@...>
                    wrote:

                    Benedict,

                    I had forgotten about this entry. I suspect that these kneeling
                    prayers were added before the prayers you name in the Sung Office.
                    Then when the Sabbaitic Typicon took the place of the Cathedral
                    office after 1204 a place had to be found in Sabbaitic Vespers. The
                    prayers were added where we now have them. They brought w/them the
                    three evening prayers from the antiphons of the Sung Office.

                    Sergius

                    >
                    > This subject came up a few years ago; here is part of a message I
                    > posted then (2000):
                    >
                    >
                    > "...parts of <these prayers> come from the 'Asmatike Akolouthia'
                    [or
                    > 'Sung Akolouthia'] of the Great Church: those parts of the prayers
                    > which follow the rubric 'And the priest addeth...' (or however it
                    may
                    > be translated in any given book); i.e., the ones that begin 1.
                    > 'Blessed art Thou, O Lord, almighty Master...'; 2. 'Lord, O Lord,
                    > Thou hast delivered us from every arrow that flieth by day...';
                    and 3.
                    > 'O God, who art great and eternal...'.
                    >
                    > "Vespers in the Great Church before Latin conquest in 1204 had
                    three
                    > antiphons after the entrance; these prayers were the prayers of the
                    > antiphons. If I remember correctly, they appear in manuscripts from
                    > the 10th century, and record a usage already old."
                    >
                    > My sources go back to the 1970's, and I imagine that a great deal
                    of
                    > work has been done since; nevertheless, here is the bibliographical
                    > information: Miguel Arranz, SJ. "Les prières sacerdotales des
                    vêpres
                    > byzantines." _Orientalia Christiana Periodica 37_ (Rome:
                    Pontificium
                    > Institutum Orientalium Studiorum, 1971), pp. 85-124.
                    >
                    > When and whence the other prayers came into the service, I do not
                    > know. To me it seems clear that they were grafted into the service,
                    > since they really do not follow the structure of Vespers.
                    Similarly,
                    > the Twelve Passion Gospels seem a graft into Matins, whose usual
                    > structure they interrupt; I read somewhere -- sorry, I don't have
                    the
                    > bibliographical reference for this -- that the Passion Gospels were
                    > originally from Jerusalem, where they were read at twelve stations
                    as
                    > a procession made its way around the city to the various spots
                    > associated with Christ's Passion. If anyone has certain knowledge
                    of
                    > this, it would be a kindness to share it.
                    >
                    > ~BC
                    >
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