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Re: [ustav] special melody specification

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  • Maria Armstrong
    Oh, ok. I guess I just happened to check a few services without special melodies :-) Yes, we usually borrow those melodies from Carpatho-Russian or Galician
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 31, 2006
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      Oh, ok. I guess I just happened to check a few services without special
      melodies :-)
      Yes, we usually borrow those melodies from Carpatho-Russian or Galician
      Chant. We actually haven't mastered Today, the Virgin... :-( The basses
      and tenors have a hard time counting... I guess just melody would work
      fine here though, so I should give that a try.
      Thanks,
      maria.

      On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:48:37 -0800 (PST) Carol Surgant
      <casurgant@...> writes:
      Dear Maria,
      The SJOKP menaion has been translated from the Slavonic. If a special
      melody name was designated in the Slavonic text, then it *is* shown in
      the English Menaion. The problem with some more recently composed
      services from Russia, is that for a time, Podoben (special melody)
      singing had fallen into disuse, and so services were composed that did
      not always indicate specific melodies and do not conform to the text
      pattern that you would expect for certain melodies.

      In the services you are looking at: New Martyrs of Russia, and St.
      Theodosius of Chernigov, both the Troparion and Kontakion do not seem to
      be written with a specific "special melody" in mind and none was
      designated. Anyway, special melodies for Troparia, Kontakia do not seem
      to be widely used in the Russian tradition,- the ones most Russians know
      are borrowed from other traditions such as the Bulgarian "Today the
      Virgin".

      Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@...> wrote:
      How do I know if a kont. is in a special melody from the SJOKP Menaion?
      From using the OCA web site, I know some of them are special melodies and
      we love doing those instead. We always do the special melodies for stich.
      But I see the kont. is not specified in the Menaion. (Or did I just
      happen to check a few that do not have a special melody?) Are there any
      other resources out there?
      Thanks,
      maria.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • readerbenedict
      ... basses and tenors have a hard time counting... I guess just melody would work fine here though, so I should give that a try. ... The files at the Podoben
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 1, 2006
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        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@j...> wrote:
        >
        > <snip> We actually haven't mastered Today, the Virgin... :-( The
        basses and tenors have a hard time counting... I guess just melody
        would work fine here though, so I should give that a try.
        > Thanks,
        > maria.

        The files at the Podoben group contain somewhat simpler versions of
        the 'Today the Virgin' melody. The files present only the melodies,
        but simple harmonies could easily be added. Log on to the Podoben
        group, go to 'Files' then to '02 Troparia etc.' and you will find, if
        I recall, four or five variations on the melody from the small-chant
        traditions of western Rus', and one Bulgarian-Byzantine version. If
        you don't have access there, please e-mail me off-list (bill dot
        churchill at utoronto dot ca).

        ~BC
      • stephen_r1937
        Reader Isaac always includes the rubric if it is the Slavonic; Holy Transfiguration always includes it if it is in the Greek. Bp Kallistos & Mother Mary
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 1, 2006
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          Reader Isaac always includes the rubric if it is the Slavonic; Holy
          Transfiguration always includes it if it is in the Greek. Bp
          Kallistos & Mother Mary include it if a) it is there and b) the
          melody is to be found it, as nearly as I can make out, the
          Osmoglasnik notnago penia published by the Holy Synod. The popular
          bookies of troparia & kontakia emanating from Walsingham, England;
          the computer program that provides a troparion and kontakion for each
          day of the year; and the several service books compiled by the Christ
          the Savior Brother and published anonymously simply omit all such
          rubrics--a totally irresponsible policy that should elicit a boycott
          in response.

          Stephen

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Carol Surgant <casurgant@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Maria,
          > The SJOKP menaion has been translated from the Slavonic. If a
          special melody name was designated in the Slavonic text, then it *is*
          shown in the English Menaion. The problem with some more recently
          composed services from Russia, is that for a time, Podoben (special
          melody) singing had fallen into disuse, and so services were composed
          that did not always indicate specific melodies and do not conform to
          the text pattern that you would expect for certain melodies.
          >
          > In the services you are looking at: New Martyrs of Russia, and
          St. Theodosius of Chernigov, both the Troparion and Kontakion do not
          seem to be written with a specific "special melody" in mind and none
          was designated. Anyway, special melodies for Troparia, Kontakia do
          not seem to be widely used in the Russian tradition,- the ones most
          Russians know are borrowed from other traditions such as the
          Bulgarian "Today the Virgin".
          >
          > Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@...> wrote:
          > How do I know if a kont. is in a special melody from the SJOKP
          Menaion? From using the OCA web site, I know some of them are special
          melodies and we love doing those instead. We always do the special
          melodies for stich.
          > But I see the kont. is not specified in the Menaion. (Or did I just
          happen to check a few that do not have a special melody?) Are there
          any other resources out there?
          > Thanks,
          > maria.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • bradley anderson
          Most kontakia are to special melodies in the SJKP Menaion, others are not. The melodies are listed in exactly the same way as for stichera. Higher ranking
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 2, 2006
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            Most kontakia are to special melodies in the SJKP Menaion, others are not. The melodies are listed in exactly the same way as for stichera. Higher ranking feasts will tend not to have special melodies, and presumably there are unique Great Chant melodies for these. The relevant service books are available in square-note notation only for the Great Feasts, though, so only if one can read the pneumatic notation does one have access to these melodies for high-ranking feasts that are not Great Feasts. Another group of feasts that tend not to have special melodies are kontakia and sedalia in services that were composed in recent centuries, after the use of special melodies for kontakia and sessionals died out in Russia.

            As Stephen has frequently pointed out on the podoben list, though, the SJKP Menaion only reflects the current Slavonic Menaion, and apparently Greek and Slavonic service books alike are somewhat incomplete in this regard, so some kontakia may have originally had special melodies indicated that were dropped from the service books over time. What is remarkable to me is how many *were* preserved in the Slavonic service books, given that most of the melodies themselves seem to have been largely lost centuries ago in Russia itself..

            Another practical issue for modern use is that one's choices for what melodies are actually available is restricted to Greek melodies or melodies from the Galician and Carpatho-Russian chant books. I use them routinely when chanting at Matins, when I know them. But when the Kontakia are used at Liturgy, it can be a bit jarring to switch back and forth from the generic harmonized settings to monoic special melodies. Even if I have special melody settings for my choir, I don't always use them, depending on the lineup of troparia and kontakia.

            Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@...> wrote:
            How do I know if a kont. is in a special melody from the SJOKP Menaion?
            From using the OCA web site, I know some of them are special melodies and
            we love doing those instead. We always do the special melodies for stich.
            But I see the kont. is not specified in the Menaion. (Or did I just
            happen to check a few that do not have a special melody?)
            Are there any other resources out there?
            Thanks,
            maria.

            ---------------------------------

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • stephen_r1937
            Dear Bradley and Maria, In time I hope to get out a resource with multiple sources for each surviving podoben. Because of space limitations, it will have to go
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 2, 2006
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              Dear Bradley and Maria,

              In time I hope to get out a resource with multiple sources for each
              surviving podoben. Because of space limitations, it will have to go
              elsewhere than this list. There are some unusual melodies for
              troparia/kontakia/kathismata prosomoia in the manuscript irmologia
              in Kievan notation. The krjuki are of limited value for kontakia,
              because usually there is no Znamenny melody at all. The Kondakarian
              notation, partly decipherable, does have some, and very elaborate
              they are (I suspect that there were also simpler melodies back then,
              but if so they were not written but transmitted only orally). An
              exception may be the handfull of surviving mss from southwestern
              Rus', where the Bulgarian chant antedates staff notation, but these
              have yet to be studies, and are in Znamenny notation C, which cannot
              be transcribed unless there are good analogies for the popevki in
              type B or A sources.

              Stephen

              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Most kontakia are to special melodies in the SJKP Menaion, others
              are not. The melodies are listed in exactly the same way as for
              stichera. Higher ranking feasts will tend not to have special
              melodies, and presumably there are unique Great Chant melodies for
              these. The relevant service books are available in square-note
              notation only for the Great Feasts, though, so only if one can read
              the pneumatic notation does one have access to these melodies for
              high-ranking feasts that are not Great Feasts. Another group of
              feasts that tend not to have special melodies are kontakia and
              sedalia in services that were composed in recent centuries, after
              the use of special melodies for kontakia and sessionals died out in
              Russia.
              >
              > As Stephen has frequently pointed out on the podoben list,
              though, the SJKP Menaion only reflects the current Slavonic Menaion,
              and apparently Greek and Slavonic service books alike are somewhat
              incomplete in this regard, so some kontakia may have originally had
              special melodies indicated that were dropped from the service books
              over time. What is remarkable to me is how many *were* preserved in
              the Slavonic service books, given that most of the melodies
              themselves seem to have been largely lost centuries ago in Russia
              itself..
              >
              > Another practical issue for modern use is that one's choices for
              what melodies are actually available is restricted to Greek melodies
              or melodies from the Galician and Carpatho-Russian chant books. I
              use them routinely when chanting at Matins, when I know them. But
              when the Kontakia are used at Liturgy, it can be a bit jarring to
              switch back and forth from the generic harmonized settings to monoic
              special melodies. Even if I have special melody settings for my
              choir, I don't always use them, depending on the lineup of troparia
              and kontakia.
              >
              > Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@...> wrote:
              > How do I know if a kont. is in a special melody from the SJOKP
              Menaion?
              > From using the OCA web site, I know some of them are special
              melodies and
              > we love doing those instead. We always do the special melodies for
              stich.
              > But I see the kont. is not specified in the Menaion. (Or did I just
              > happen to check a few that do not have a special melody?)
              > Are there any other resources out there?
              > Thanks,
              > maria.
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              >
              > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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