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Re: Choppy Vigils

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  • Nikita Simmons
    My apologies. I misread Father s post. (See what vigils do to my brain? I think I need some more sleep.) Nikita
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 7, 2005
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      My apologies. I misread Father's post. (See what vigils do to my
      brain? I think I need some more sleep.)

      Nikita

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Fr David Straut <frdavidstraut@y...> wrote:
      > --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@y...> wrote:
      >
      > You've got to be kidding. In all sincerity, I must ask you: how can
      > you do an unnabreviated vigil in 1 hour 20 minutes?
      >
      > Last night in our parish we started Great Compline at 6:00 PM, and it
      > took a least an hour for that service. The Litya takes at least 20
      > minutes,
      >
      > Dear Nikita.
      >
      > Christ is Born!
      >
      > Please reread Father's post. He said *Great Compline* took an hour and
      > 20 minutes. So even in the *new* rite his Great Compline lasted the
      > same as yours!
      >
      > Priest David Straut
    • Reader Michael Malloy
      Another major determining factor in the time required for a Vigil is the style of music used by choir and priest. Our priest is Serbian. Sometimes he chants in
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 7, 2005
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        Another major determining factor in the time required for a Vigil is
        the style of music used by choir and priest.

        Our priest is Serbian. Sometimes he chants in his own way something
        the choir previously sang in English using Russian music. I watch the
        choir while this is occuring. Some members seem anxious about the
        greatly expanded time required for chanting in the style used by the
        priest. Many melismas can spread a couple of syllables out for a very
        long time!

        Respectfully,

        Reader Michael Malloy
        Columbus
      • bradley anderson
        ... Your post was very informative, Nikita, and answered in detail my question about how long a full Vigil without omissions would take. The answer is 5
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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          --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

          >
          > My apologies. I misread Father's post. (See what
          > vigils do to my
          > brain? I think I need some more sleep.)
          >
          > Nikita
          >

          Your post was very informative, Nikita, and answered
          in detail my question about how long a full Vigil
          without omissions would take. The answer is 5 hours,
          and even that has some qualifications, given the
          absence of liturgical readings, etc... that you mention.



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        • Cezar Login
          Yes, it is true. Even if the Vigil are very rare in Romanian parish practice, whenever we had one in our parish, we never succeed in having it shorter than 5
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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            Yes, it is true. Even if the Vigil are very rare in Romanian parish
            practice, whenever we had one in our parish, we never succeed in having it
            shorter than 5 hours and half. And we didn't had any patristic readings, and
            we read the 1st Katisma and Polyeleos (except the 6 selected verses of the
            1st stasis and the 8 select verses of the Polyeleos which had been sung).
            And we also read the stichologia of Lord I have cried and that of the Lauds
            instead of singing it.



            Cezar







            _____

            From: bradley anderson [mailto:andersonbradley@...]
            Sent: 8 ianuarie 2005 20:44
            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Choppy Vigils



            --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

            >
            > My apologies. I misread Father's post. (See what
            > vigils do to my
            > brain? I think I need some more sleep.)
            >
            > Nikita
            >

            Your post was very informative, Nikita, and answered
            in detail my question about how long a full Vigil
            without omissions would take. The answer is 5 hours,
            and even that has some qualifications, given the
            absence of liturgical readings, etc... that you mention.



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          • Ferrari
            Our Vigil began at 7 p.m. with Compline, a Lity, Matins, and straight into Divine Liturgy. It was over about 12:30 a.m. (Please don t say anything about
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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              Our Vigil began at 7 p.m. with Compline, a Lity, Matins, and straight into
              Divine Liturgy. It was over about 12:30 a.m. (Please don't say anything
              about starting Liturgy before Midnight.) We sang the canons but each verse
              only once with Irmoi and Katavasia. We split one Kathisma and do the two
              halves. That way we can sing the sedalions. At the Lity we didn't sing all
              of the kyrie eleisons but a reader chanted them.
              We did Royal Hours and Typica Thursday morning at 5 a.m. and we were done
              about 6:35.

              Paul Ferrari
              St Andrew Fool for Christ
              Serbian Orthodox Church
              Redding, Ca.
              flue@...




              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephanlh" <stephanlh@y...> wrote:
              >
              > I have noticed that when we have the vigil of Christmas and
              Epiphany
              > which as you know is Great Compline with Festal Matins, there is a
              > tendency to make short cuts wherever possible.

              >(snip)

              > Somehow this leaves me feeling cheated. I want to suffer a little
              and
              > since it is only twice a year (we don't have the vigil of the
              > Annunciation where great compline is also combined with Festal
              Matins
              > on most occasions), I really do not mind standing in church for
              three
              > hours. (snip)

              Most of the members of this list are at Vigil even as we write, and
              will be feasting tomorrow, so there may be a delay in answers, but I
              have a couple of questions to add.

              I'm curious -- how long does a complete Vigil of Nativity/Theophany
              really take? Can it be done in 3 hours? My gut level is that it
              would exceed this, even with "standard" Vigil abbreviations
              (abbreviated Polyeleos, abbreviated Magnification/Psalm verses,
              reading sessionals and canon troparia rather than singing them, no
              liturgical readings). An unabbreviated Sunday Matins with full
              Kathisma readings and full canon is about 2 1/2 hours, unabbreviated
              Great Compline with the sung festal Lity/Aposticha material would
              seem to me to take about an hour, 1st Hour takes about 15 minutes.
              But I really don't have a good sense of this... We abbreviate both
              Great Compline and Matins for these Vigils, and we don't do 1st Hour.

              Also, this is as good a time as any to ask a couple of related
              questions that have niggled at me:

              1. Why, at Great Feasts, do the rubrics specify that the Kathisma
              at Vespers is the first stasis of the first Kathisma (or omitted
              entirely) rather than the appointed one for the day, while at
              Matins, the usual full Kathisma readings for the day are appointed?

              2. I notice in the Menaion rubrics that the Vigils for Theophany
              and Nativity are appointed to begin at the 10th hour of the night (4
              AM.) And yet, I seem to recall a discussion on this list that the
              Liturgies of Theophany and Nativity are appointed for quite early in
              the morning, according to the Typikon. How were a full Vigil and
              the Hours supposed to be completed in time for the early morning
              start appointed by the Typikon for the Liturgy?

              Thanks to all for your answers. A blessed Nativity to all...


              Bradley (Edward) Anderson








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            • bradley anderson
              ... What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo chanters...? __________________________________ Do you
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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                --- Ferrari <flue@...> wrote:

                > We sang the
                > canons but each verse
                > only once with Irmoi and Katavasia.

                What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons
                to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo
                chanters...?





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              • P.Somalis
                Chanting the troparia of a canon in Greek is not that difficult provided one knows the melody of the Irmos of each Ode. In contemporary Greek parish practice
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 9, 2005
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                  Chanting the troparia of a canon in Greek is not that difficult provided one
                  knows the melody of the Irmos of each Ode.
                  In contemporary Greek parish practice the following canons are in fact
                  chanted in their entirety:
                  1) Canon of the Akathist Hymn
                  2) The two Supplicatory Canons to the Theotokos
                  3) The Canons from Matins of Holy Week and the Easter Vigil (both from
                  Midnight Office and Matins).
                  Panagiotis

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "bradley anderson" <andersonbradley@...>
                  To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:10 AM
                  Subject: [ustav] Re: Choppy Vigils


                  >
                  > --- Ferrari <flue@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > We sang the
                  > > canons but each verse
                  > > only once with Irmoi and Katavasia.
                  >
                  > What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons
                  > to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo
                  > chanters...?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • bradley anderson
                  ... Yes, this is true. I can do it, too... for exactly one canon -- the small Paraklesis (in English, of course, to the Byzantine melodies)! I very much
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 9, 2005
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                    --- "P.Somalis" <psomalis@...> wrote:

                    > Chanting the troparia of a canon in Greek is not
                    > that difficult provided one
                    > knows the melody of the Irmos of each Ode.


                    Yes, this is true. I can do it, too... for exactly
                    one canon -- the small Paraklesis (in English, of
                    course, to the Byzantine melodies)! I very much enjoy
                    it, and I feel as though I experience the beauty and
                    power of the canon as it was intended.

                    In the Russian tradition, we sing all 8 Irmosi of a
                    canon to a single generic melody of the tone, and then
                    read the troparia. I'm wondering if Mr Ferrari's
                    church sings all the irmosi and troparia of a given
                    canon to a single generic Russian melody, or if they
                    are using melodies from an irmologion
                    (Synodal/Znamenny, Western Rus, Byzantine...) that
                    would change from ode to ode.



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                  • chantermt@aol.com
                    In the Rusyn tradition, the Irmoi are related but different for most of the Odes. It is the more standard procedure to read the troparia and have the refrain
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 9, 2005
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                      In the Rusyn tradition, the Irmoi are related but different for most of the
                      Odes.
                      It is the more standard procedure to read the troparia and have the refrain
                      sung.
                      But, with the small number of parishes and monasteries singing Matins,
                      we're lucky to have anything at all. But we're working on it!

                      Prof. J. Michael Thompson
                      Byzantine Catholic Seminary
                      Pittsburgh, PA 15214


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • stephen_r1937
                      With a few exceptions, they are sung in Znamenny chant, a different recension from that in the Russian books but still recognizably the same melodies. A few
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 10, 2005
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                        With a few exceptions, they are sung in Znamenny chant, a different recension from that in the Russian books but still recognizably the same melodies. A few are simplified forms of Znamenny, and a few are not Znamenny at all.

                        I recall a practice similar to what is done in Greek parishes: the irmoi are sung one after another, the troparia are simply omitted.

                        Stephen

                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, chantermt@a... wrote:
                        > In the Rusyn tradition, the Irmoi are related but different for most of the
                        > Odes.
                        > It is the more standard procedure to read the troparia and have the refrain
                        > sung.
                        > But, with the small number of parishes and monasteries singing Matins,
                        > we're lucky to have anything at all. But we're working on it!
                        >
                        > Prof. J. Michael Thompson
                        > Byzantine Catholic Seminary
                        > Pittsburgh, PA 15214
                        >
                        >
                      • Ferrari
                        What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo chanters...? I think they were sung in canon tone 1 same
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                          "What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons
                          to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo
                          chanters...?"

                          I think they were sung in canon tone 1 same as the irmoi. We sing the Pascha
                          verses the same way. The choir (one choir) sings straight through. We used
                          to sing antiphonally before we went to a single Kliros.

                          Paul Ferrari
                          St Andrew Fool for Christ
                          Serbian Orthodox Church
                          Redding, Ca.
                          flue@...



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                        • stephanlh
                          Dear Nikita, Could you tell us more about the Old Believer practices? What is meant by a procession with the Bishop? Does that happen ever time he comes to see
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                            Dear Nikita,

                            Could you tell us more about the Old Believer practices? What is
                            meant by a procession with the Bishop? Does that happen ever time he
                            comes to see you?

                            Are the liturgical sermons long? Are they read in English? I had
                            heard that someone was translating them into English. Someone else
                            commented that it would be far better to read the sermons of St. John
                            Chrysostom because there was according to him some question if the
                            liturgical sermons are really from him. Your comments would be
                            helpful...Thank you...Stephan in Ottawa


                            -- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Archimandrite Kyril,
                            >
                            > You've got to be kidding. In all sincerity, I must ask you: how can
                            > you do an unnabreviated vigil in 1 hour 20 minutes?
                            >
                            > Last night in our parish we started Great Compline at 6:00 PM, and
                            it
                            > took a least an hour for that service. The Litya takes at least 20
                            > minutes, and the 6 Psalms take 15-20 minutes. The 2 Kathismata each
                            > take about 15 minutes. We managed to start the Canons at 9:15,
                            > finishing them at 10:30. With the Praises, Great Doxology and 2
                            > Litanies it took us to 11:00 PM. We finished the First Hour at 11:15
                            > PM. (And I might add that there were approximately 250 people in
                            > church last night - for nearly the entire service.)
                            >
                            > This morning we started the Midnight Office at 6:00 AM (I know, this
                            > service is not appointed for days with a Vigil, but we do it
                            anyway),
                            > then at about 6:40 we met the archbishop and had the procession,
                            > entrance and vesting. Then we began the Hours and Hierarchical
                            > Liturgy, finishing up at about 10:45.
                            >
                            > I realize that those of us who use the Old Rite have a different
                            sense
                            > of time, but I am completely aware of the fact that the differences
                            > between our Typicons (Old and New Rites) is really quite minor. OK,
                            we
                            > did sing about a dozen of the stichera in Great Znamenny Chant, but
                            > even that doesn't add more than about 10 minutes to the total length
                            > of time involved. And I feel that our readers were reading too fast
                            > last night. Moreover, we did not read any of the liturgical homilies
                            > that are appointed in the Old Rite.
                            >
                            > Forgive me if I am "putting you on the spot", but I really want to
                            > know how you accomplished this amazing feat in so brief a time.
                            >
                            > A joyous Nativity to you!
                            >
                            > Nikita Simmons
                            > Woodburn, Oregon
                            >
                            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kyril Jenner" <kyril@m...> wrote:
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@y...>
                            > > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 6:58 AM
                            > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Choppy Vigils
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > unabbreviated
                            > > > Great Compline with the sung festal Lity/Aposticha material
                            would
                            > > > seem to me to take about an hour,
                            > >
                            > > It took us about 1 hour 20 minutes last night. That was with
                            > virtually no
                            > > cuts and mainly fairly simple singing.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                          • Nikita Simmons
                            ... First of all, we are talking about Old Rite practices. (The term Old Believer designates a religious stance of remaining apart from the Moscow
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephanlh" <stephanlh@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Nikita,
                              >
                              > Could you tell us more about the Old Believer practices?

                              First of all, we are talking about "Old Rite" practices. (The term
                              "Old Believer" designates a religious stance of remaining apart from
                              the Moscow Patriarchate or ROCOR, and includes both priested and
                              priestless communities.)

                              In theory, there is very little difference between Old and New Rite
                              liturgical practices. The prime differences are philosophical and
                              cultural, and this influences how we interpret the same liturgical
                              books and pass the traditions down to our children. Old Ritualists
                              preserve the medieval form of Russian Orthodoxy (and culture), whereas
                              the modern Russian Church has been transformed by Patriarch Nikon's
                              textual reforms, Peter the Great's Spiritual Regulation, and the
                              wholesale importation of Western European culture which replaced the
                              old ways (choral/harmonized singing, sentimental iconography, western
                              clothing and grooming standards, etc.). There is now very little of
                              modern Russian culture which is authentically Russian in origin, but
                              for Old Believers it is a different story.

                              For Old Ritualists, we do not consider the Typicon to be primarily a
                              monastic book, as folks in the New Rite usually do. In fact, we do not
                              make a great distinction between monastic and lay services, except for
                              the monastic Cell Rule and rubrics in the Typicon that are
                              specifically for monastic officials. So, this means that we attempt to
                              observe the Typicon in its fullness, observing a full cycle of serves
                              (even in small parishes). We do not pick and choose what we want to
                              do, nor do we allow any abbreviation of the services. We also do not
                              think about the passage of time when we are in church, so long
                              services don't phase us in the least bit. (You never hear Old
                              Ritualists grumbling when the priest suddenly decides to add a full
                              Moleben at the end of Liturgy.)

                              So, if you were to attend an Old Rite church, be prepared for lengthy
                              services. You have to re-train your mind to stop thinking about time
                              passing, and you need to cast aside all your earthly cares. And most
                              important: wear very comfortable shoes. (And have a good meal before
                              Vigil.) Come and be prepared to settle in for the long haul, and you
                              will notice that people are actually very happy to hang out for the
                              whole evening in church - every Saturday evening - with God and with
                              each other as a community.

                              The other thing that you will notice is complete liturgical unity and
                              a heightened sense of order and discipline. We stand in one place,
                              with arms folded (the old way of standing at prayer), and we make all
                              our Signs of the Cross and bows simultaneously, not whenever we feel
                              like it. (These occasions are governed by the books.) We also sing all
                              the services in one voice (monophonic chant), not in choral polyphony.
                              When modern Russians venture into an Old Rite church they are usually
                              shocked by the differences.

                              Now as to actual differences in liturgics, there are many, but with
                              only a few exceptions they are subtle. The biggest differences: At
                              Vespers on Saturday evening we always do a Litya. At Matins we always
                              do the 17th Kathisma after the 2nd and 3rd Kathisma. At the Hours we
                              read the 3rd, 6th and 9th Hours, the portions of the Obednitsa not
                              used at the Liturgy, and the Rite of Forgiveness and a Dismissal. At
                              the Liturgy we usually read the first 2 psalms and sing Psalm 33 at
                              the end, and we sing a special sticheron to the Cross while we
                              venerate it following the Liturgy. Panykhidas and Molebens are done in
                              full and generally take 40 minutes to do.

                              > What is
                              > meant by a procession with the Bishop? Does that happen ever time he
                              > comes to see you?

                              The chanters go over to the bishop's residence before the Hours, and
                              we chant appointed hymns to accompany him as he walks to church. Then
                              we begin the vesting and Hours in church. After services are over, we
                              walk him back to his residence, chanting appointed hymns. These are
                              all appointed in the Chinovnik.

                              > Are the liturgical sermons long? Are they read in English? I had
                              > heard that someone was translating them into English. Someone else
                              > commented that it would be far better to read the sermons of St. John
                              > Chrysostom because there was according to him some question if the
                              > liturgical sermons are really from him. Your comments would be
                              > helpful...Thank you...Stephan in Ottawa


                              Yes, they generally tend to be long, but we can split them up by doing
                              portions after the Sessional Hymns at Matins, and after the 3rd and
                              6th Odes of the Canons. The Church of the Nativity in Erie,
                              Pennsylvania has translated all the Sunday Sermons (mostly by St. John
                              Chrysostom), and this has already been published (I don't have details
                              at hand).

                              In XC,
                              Nikita
                            • bradley anderson
                              NIkita, A few more questions about the Old Rite practices you ... What percentage of parishioners attend all of a given Sat/Sun cycle of services in a typical
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                NIkita,

                                A few more questions about the Old Rite practices you
                                mention:

                                --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

                                > We do not pick and choose
                                > what we want to
                                > do, nor do we allow any abbreviation of the
                                > services.

                                What percentage of parishioners attend all of a given
                                Sat/Sun cycle of services in a typical Old Rite
                                parish?

                                > Now as to actual differences in liturgics, there are
                                > many, but with
                                > only a few exceptions they are subtle. The biggest
                                > differences: At
                                > Vespers on Saturday evening we always do a Litya.

                                Do you read or sing Psalm 103 at the beginning of
                                Vespers, and if sung, is it done in its entirety?
                                Same question on the 1st Kathisma.

                                I seem to recall you saying that Compline and Midnight
                                office are read as well, even when there is a Vigil.
                                Am I remembering this correctly? And that the Canons
                                and prayers before communion are also read in church
                                communally on Saturday night after the Vigil?

                                > At
                                > Matins we always
                                > do the 17th Kathisma after the 2nd and 3rd Kathisma.

                                Is part or all of the 17th Kathisma sung, or is it all
                                read? I assume that the Polyeleos, when appointed, is
                                done after this -- again, is part of the Polyeleos
                                read? I seem to recall that you said that the modern
                                Russian practice of reading the sessionals, the canon
                                troparia, etc... is also done in the Old Rite.

                                > The Church of the Nativity
                                > in Erie,
                                > Pennsylvania has translated all the Sunday Sermons
                                > (mostly by St. John
                                > Chrysostom), and this has already been published (I
                                > don't have details
                                > at hand).
                                >

                                This excellent book was translated by Fr. German
                                Ciuba, who was also largely responsible for the very
                                nice translation of the Old Rite Prayer Book. This
                                book is available at www.sjkp.org -- do a search for
                                "The Gospel Commentary." Keep in mind that the
                                commentaries on the Sunday Gospels will not come in
                                sequential order for those following the Lucan jump.
                                It is well-worth buying.

                                Also, Nikita, is the sermon from this book the only
                                one that is read in modern Old Rite practice on
                                Sundays? Or are other liturgical readings appointed
                                and/or done? Is a sermon preached by the priest as
                                well, and where in the service is this done?

                                Thanks,

                                Bradley (Edward) Anderson





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                              • Nikita Simmons
                                ... Dear Bradley, I ll try to answer them, but it s been a long day, so I ll try to be brief. ... Now that is very hard to answer. It really depends on
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > NIkita,
                                  >
                                  > A few more questions about the Old Rite practices you
                                  > mention:

                                  Dear Bradley,

                                  I'll try to answer them, but it's been a long day, so I'll try to be
                                  brief.

                                  > --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > We do not pick and choose
                                  > > what we want to
                                  > > do, nor do we allow any abbreviation of the
                                  > > services.
                                  >
                                  > What percentage of parishioners attend all of a given
                                  > Sat/Sun cycle of services in a typical Old Rite
                                  > parish?

                                  Now that is very hard to answer. It really depends on countless
                                  factors: which community you are discussing, how busy the work season
                                  is (especially during harvest seasons here in Oregon, when many folks
                                  must harvest their source of yearly income), how bad the cold/flu
                                  season is, etc., etc. But on the average we do have about 40 to 50 per
                                  cent of the parish attending Vigil and 80 percent attending Hours and
                                  Liturgy for regular weekends. Middle Rank Feasts is somewhat higher
                                  attendance, while Great Feasts usually have 100 per cent attendance.
                                  Weddings have a lower attendance than in the New Rite, because it is
                                  usually viewed as a more intimate or "family and close friends"
                                  service. Funerals, of course, elicit a 95 per cent attendance, and
                                  Nativity and Pascha get a 125 to 150 per cent attendance (with folks
                                  appearing out of the blue). Realy, though, it varies a lot from place
                                  to place.

                                  > > Now as to actual differences in liturgics, there are
                                  > > many, but with
                                  > > only a few exceptions they are subtle. The biggest
                                  > > differences: At
                                  > > Vespers on Saturday evening we always do a Litya.
                                  >
                                  > Do you read or sing Psalm 103 at the beginning of
                                  > Vespers, and if sung, is it done in its entirety?
                                  > Same question on the 1st Kathisma.

                                  It depends on the rank of the day and service whether we read it or
                                  sing it. At vigils it is both read AND sung. See this article (on my
                                  website) for a bit more of an explanation:
                                  http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/research/simmons/stichologia.html

                                  > I seem to recall you saying that Compline and Midnight
                                  > office are read as well, even when there is a Vigil.
                                  > Am I remembering this correctly?

                                  Yes, this is correct. The Typicon is pretty clear that Small Compline
                                  is always done on Saturday evenings. Sunday Midnight Office... well,
                                  the Typicon is silent on the matter, but the Octoechos provides an
                                  order of services and a Canon to the Trinity for each Tone, so clearly
                                  it is intended to be observed.

                                  > And that the Canons
                                  > and prayers before communion are also read in church
                                  > communally on Saturday night after the Vigil?

                                  This is correct for Oregon, but the Erie parish does not observe this
                                  custom (they say their prayers privately at home).

                                  > > At
                                  > > Matins we always
                                  > > do the 17th Kathisma after the 2nd and 3rd Kathisma.
                                  >
                                  > Is part or all of the 17th Kathisma sung, or is it all
                                  > read?

                                  It depends on the tradition of Old Ritualists. Here in Oregon the 17th
                                  Kathisma is always read in full. In Erie they sing selected verses.

                                  > I assume that the Polyeleos, when appointed, is
                                  > done after this -- again, is part of the Polyeleos
                                  > read?

                                  The entire text of the Polieleos (and selected Psalms when there is a
                                  Velichanie) is read, and the chanters antiphonally repeat selected
                                  verses. (In the New Rite, the choirs sing only these selected verses.)

                                  > I seem to recall that you said that the modern
                                  > Russian practice of reading the sessionals, the canon
                                  > troparia, etc... is also done in the Old Rite.

                                  Yes, this is true.

                                  > Also, Nikita, is the sermon from this book the only
                                  > one that is read in modern Old Rite practice on
                                  > Sundays? Or are other liturgical readings appointed
                                  > and/or done?

                                  This is one of several available books of liturgical homilies. I
                                  believe the one published by Erie is called "Zlatoust" (Golden-mouth),
                                  which is the collection of Sunday sermons (on the themes of the Gospel
                                  readings) attributed to St. John Chrysostom. "Torzhestvennik" (Book of
                                  Triumphs?) provides sermons by a number of patristic writers on the
                                  Great Feasts. "Margarit" (The Pearl) is attributed to St. John
                                  Chrysostom, although I am not familiar with its contents or use (it's
                                  not widely distributed). "Lestvitsa" (The Ladder) of St. John Klimakos
                                  is read during the Hours of Great Lent. The Catechetical Lectures of
                                  St. Cyril of Jerusalem are read during the Lenten weekday services. We
                                  also have "Blagovest" (Good News), which is a Gospel Commentary by
                                  various writers, as well as "Tolkovoi apostol" and "Tolkovoi psaltyr"
                                  (Epistle Commentary and Psalter Commentary), which are used more as
                                  "Bible study" or reference books, with the goal of presenting official
                                  interpretations of the Scriptures for the faithful. The Acts of the
                                  Apostles are usually read in monasteries between Vespers and Matins
                                  when there is a Vigil, and several books may be read in the refectory,
                                  including the "Chetii minei" (Reading Menaion), "Prolog" (Prologue)
                                  and "Trefoloi" (Trephologion?). Other books that may be read at Matins
                                  are "Pouchenii" (Teachings) by St. Ephraim the Syrian (read after the
                                  Kathismata), and "Synaxar" (Synaxarion), which is read after the 6th
                                  Ode of the Canon. (There are several other volumes as well, but their
                                  use is not as common or known today.)

                                  > Is a sermon preached by the priest as
                                  > well, and where in the service is this done?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  >
                                  > Bradley (Edward) Anderson

                                  No, sermons are not appointed. But it is the spiritual legacy of the
                                  Church reformers just before Patriarch Nikon, including the Archpriest
                                  Avvakum and other members of the "Revniteli blagochestia" (The Zealots
                                  of Piety, a grass-roots movement of married clergy who fought against
                                  many social problems), that sermons be written by clergy and delivered
                                  following the Liturgy. This custom continued in both the Old and New
                                  Rites.

                                  Nikita
                                • bradley anderson
                                  ... Nikita, thanks to you and to Fr. John for your detailed and informative answers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                    --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:
                                    > I'll try to answer them, but it's been a long day,
                                    > so I'll try to be
                                    > brief.
                                    >


                                    Nikita, thanks to you and to Fr. John for your
                                    detailed and informative answers.

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