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Re: Choppy Vigils

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  • James Baglien
    Nativity greetings to all! Christ is born! ... ndersonbradley@y... ... We ran three hours last night. The only abbreviation (i.e., relative to ordinary
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 7, 2005
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      Nativity greetings to all! Christ is born!

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley" <a
      ndersonbradley@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I'm curious -- how long does a complete Vigil of Nativity/Theophany
      > really take? Can it be done in 3 hours? My gut level is that it
      > would exceed this, even with "standard" Vigil abbreviations
      > (abbreviated Polyeleos, abbreviated Magnification/Psalm verses,
      > reading sessionals and canon troparia rather than singing them, no
      > liturgical readings).

      We ran three hours last night. The only abbreviation (i.e.,
      relative to ordinary parish practice) that I can recall was omission
      of the Matins kathismata.

      I am a comparatively brisk liturgist, and the choir doesn't drag
      things out. Unless the rubrics call for "slowly", my usual guideline
      for reading and singing is that if it doesn't sound "hurried", then
      it's not too fast.

      in IC XC,

      Priest James Baglien
      St. Martin Orthodox Church
      Corvallis, Oregon
    • Nikita Simmons
      My apologies. I misread Father s post. (See what vigils do to my brain? I think I need some more sleep.) Nikita
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 7, 2005
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        My apologies. I misread Father's post. (See what vigils do to my
        brain? I think I need some more sleep.)

        Nikita

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Fr David Straut <frdavidstraut@y...> wrote:
        > --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@y...> wrote:
        >
        > You've got to be kidding. In all sincerity, I must ask you: how can
        > you do an unnabreviated vigil in 1 hour 20 minutes?
        >
        > Last night in our parish we started Great Compline at 6:00 PM, and it
        > took a least an hour for that service. The Litya takes at least 20
        > minutes,
        >
        > Dear Nikita.
        >
        > Christ is Born!
        >
        > Please reread Father's post. He said *Great Compline* took an hour and
        > 20 minutes. So even in the *new* rite his Great Compline lasted the
        > same as yours!
        >
        > Priest David Straut
      • Reader Michael Malloy
        Another major determining factor in the time required for a Vigil is the style of music used by choir and priest. Our priest is Serbian. Sometimes he chants in
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 7, 2005
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          Another major determining factor in the time required for a Vigil is
          the style of music used by choir and priest.

          Our priest is Serbian. Sometimes he chants in his own way something
          the choir previously sang in English using Russian music. I watch the
          choir while this is occuring. Some members seem anxious about the
          greatly expanded time required for chanting in the style used by the
          priest. Many melismas can spread a couple of syllables out for a very
          long time!

          Respectfully,

          Reader Michael Malloy
          Columbus
        • bradley anderson
          ... Your post was very informative, Nikita, and answered in detail my question about how long a full Vigil without omissions would take. The answer is 5
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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            --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

            >
            > My apologies. I misread Father's post. (See what
            > vigils do to my
            > brain? I think I need some more sleep.)
            >
            > Nikita
            >

            Your post was very informative, Nikita, and answered
            in detail my question about how long a full Vigil
            without omissions would take. The answer is 5 hours,
            and even that has some qualifications, given the
            absence of liturgical readings, etc... that you mention.



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          • Cezar Login
            Yes, it is true. Even if the Vigil are very rare in Romanian parish practice, whenever we had one in our parish, we never succeed in having it shorter than 5
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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              Yes, it is true. Even if the Vigil are very rare in Romanian parish
              practice, whenever we had one in our parish, we never succeed in having it
              shorter than 5 hours and half. And we didn't had any patristic readings, and
              we read the 1st Katisma and Polyeleos (except the 6 selected verses of the
              1st stasis and the 8 select verses of the Polyeleos which had been sung).
              And we also read the stichologia of Lord I have cried and that of the Lauds
              instead of singing it.



              Cezar







              _____

              From: bradley anderson [mailto:andersonbradley@...]
              Sent: 8 ianuarie 2005 20:44
              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Choppy Vigils



              --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

              >
              > My apologies. I misread Father's post. (See what
              > vigils do to my
              > brain? I think I need some more sleep.)
              >
              > Nikita
              >

              Your post was very informative, Nikita, and answered
              in detail my question about how long a full Vigil
              without omissions would take. The answer is 5 hours,
              and even that has some qualifications, given the
              absence of liturgical readings, etc... that you mention.



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            • Ferrari
              Our Vigil began at 7 p.m. with Compline, a Lity, Matins, and straight into Divine Liturgy. It was over about 12:30 a.m. (Please don t say anything about
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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                Our Vigil began at 7 p.m. with Compline, a Lity, Matins, and straight into
                Divine Liturgy. It was over about 12:30 a.m. (Please don't say anything
                about starting Liturgy before Midnight.) We sang the canons but each verse
                only once with Irmoi and Katavasia. We split one Kathisma and do the two
                halves. That way we can sing the sedalions. At the Lity we didn't sing all
                of the kyrie eleisons but a reader chanted them.
                We did Royal Hours and Typica Thursday morning at 5 a.m. and we were done
                about 6:35.

                Paul Ferrari
                St Andrew Fool for Christ
                Serbian Orthodox Church
                Redding, Ca.
                flue@...




                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephanlh" <stephanlh@y...> wrote:
                >
                > I have noticed that when we have the vigil of Christmas and
                Epiphany
                > which as you know is Great Compline with Festal Matins, there is a
                > tendency to make short cuts wherever possible.

                >(snip)

                > Somehow this leaves me feeling cheated. I want to suffer a little
                and
                > since it is only twice a year (we don't have the vigil of the
                > Annunciation where great compline is also combined with Festal
                Matins
                > on most occasions), I really do not mind standing in church for
                three
                > hours. (snip)

                Most of the members of this list are at Vigil even as we write, and
                will be feasting tomorrow, so there may be a delay in answers, but I
                have a couple of questions to add.

                I'm curious -- how long does a complete Vigil of Nativity/Theophany
                really take? Can it be done in 3 hours? My gut level is that it
                would exceed this, even with "standard" Vigil abbreviations
                (abbreviated Polyeleos, abbreviated Magnification/Psalm verses,
                reading sessionals and canon troparia rather than singing them, no
                liturgical readings). An unabbreviated Sunday Matins with full
                Kathisma readings and full canon is about 2 1/2 hours, unabbreviated
                Great Compline with the sung festal Lity/Aposticha material would
                seem to me to take about an hour, 1st Hour takes about 15 minutes.
                But I really don't have a good sense of this... We abbreviate both
                Great Compline and Matins for these Vigils, and we don't do 1st Hour.

                Also, this is as good a time as any to ask a couple of related
                questions that have niggled at me:

                1. Why, at Great Feasts, do the rubrics specify that the Kathisma
                at Vespers is the first stasis of the first Kathisma (or omitted
                entirely) rather than the appointed one for the day, while at
                Matins, the usual full Kathisma readings for the day are appointed?

                2. I notice in the Menaion rubrics that the Vigils for Theophany
                and Nativity are appointed to begin at the 10th hour of the night (4
                AM.) And yet, I seem to recall a discussion on this list that the
                Liturgies of Theophany and Nativity are appointed for quite early in
                the morning, according to the Typikon. How were a full Vigil and
                the Hours supposed to be completed in time for the early morning
                start appointed by the Typikon for the Liturgy?

                Thanks to all for your answers. A blessed Nativity to all...


                Bradley (Edward) Anderson








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              • bradley anderson
                ... What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo chanters...? __________________________________ Do you
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 8, 2005
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                  --- Ferrari <flue@...> wrote:

                  > We sang the
                  > canons but each verse
                  > only once with Irmoi and Katavasia.

                  What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons
                  to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo
                  chanters...?





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                • P.Somalis
                  Chanting the troparia of a canon in Greek is not that difficult provided one knows the melody of the Irmos of each Ode. In contemporary Greek parish practice
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 9, 2005
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                    Chanting the troparia of a canon in Greek is not that difficult provided one
                    knows the melody of the Irmos of each Ode.
                    In contemporary Greek parish practice the following canons are in fact
                    chanted in their entirety:
                    1) Canon of the Akathist Hymn
                    2) The two Supplicatory Canons to the Theotokos
                    3) The Canons from Matins of Holy Week and the Easter Vigil (both from
                    Midnight Office and Matins).
                    Panagiotis

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "bradley anderson" <andersonbradley@...>
                    To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:10 AM
                    Subject: [ustav] Re: Choppy Vigils


                    >
                    > --- Ferrari <flue@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > We sang the
                    > > canons but each verse
                    > > only once with Irmoi and Katavasia.
                    >
                    > What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons
                    > to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo
                    > chanters...?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • bradley anderson
                    ... Yes, this is true. I can do it, too... for exactly one canon -- the small Paraklesis (in English, of course, to the Byzantine melodies)! I very much
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 9, 2005
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                      --- "P.Somalis" <psomalis@...> wrote:

                      > Chanting the troparia of a canon in Greek is not
                      > that difficult provided one
                      > knows the melody of the Irmos of each Ode.


                      Yes, this is true. I can do it, too... for exactly
                      one canon -- the small Paraklesis (in English, of
                      course, to the Byzantine melodies)! I very much enjoy
                      it, and I feel as though I experience the beauty and
                      power of the canon as it was intended.

                      In the Russian tradition, we sing all 8 Irmosi of a
                      canon to a single generic melody of the tone, and then
                      read the troparia. I'm wondering if Mr Ferrari's
                      church sings all the irmosi and troparia of a given
                      canon to a single generic Russian melody, or if they
                      are using melodies from an irmologion
                      (Synodal/Znamenny, Western Rus, Byzantine...) that
                      would change from ode to ode.



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                    • chantermt@aol.com
                      In the Rusyn tradition, the Irmoi are related but different for most of the Odes. It is the more standard procedure to read the troparia and have the refrain
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 9, 2005
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                        In the Rusyn tradition, the Irmoi are related but different for most of the
                        Odes.
                        It is the more standard procedure to read the troparia and have the refrain
                        sung.
                        But, with the small number of parishes and monasteries singing Matins,
                        we're lucky to have anything at all. But we're working on it!

                        Prof. J. Michael Thompson
                        Byzantine Catholic Seminary
                        Pittsburgh, PA 15214


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • stephen_r1937
                        With a few exceptions, they are sung in Znamenny chant, a different recension from that in the Russian books but still recognizably the same melodies. A few
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 10, 2005
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                          With a few exceptions, they are sung in Znamenny chant, a different recension from that in the Russian books but still recognizably the same melodies. A few are simplified forms of Znamenny, and a few are not Znamenny at all.

                          I recall a practice similar to what is done in Greek parishes: the irmoi are sung one after another, the troparia are simply omitted.

                          Stephen

                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, chantermt@a... wrote:
                          > In the Rusyn tradition, the Irmoi are related but different for most of the
                          > Odes.
                          > It is the more standard procedure to read the troparia and have the refrain
                          > sung.
                          > But, with the small number of parishes and monasteries singing Matins,
                          > we're lucky to have anything at all. But we're working on it!
                          >
                          > Prof. J. Michael Thompson
                          > Byzantine Catholic Seminary
                          > Pittsburgh, PA 15214
                          >
                          >
                        • Ferrari
                          What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo chanters...? I think they were sung in canon tone 1 same
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                            "What melodies do you sing the troparia of the canons
                            to, and how do you do it? Antiphonally, solo
                            chanters...?"

                            I think they were sung in canon tone 1 same as the irmoi. We sing the Pascha
                            verses the same way. The choir (one choir) sings straight through. We used
                            to sing antiphonally before we went to a single Kliros.

                            Paul Ferrari
                            St Andrew Fool for Christ
                            Serbian Orthodox Church
                            Redding, Ca.
                            flue@...



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                          • stephanlh
                            Dear Nikita, Could you tell us more about the Old Believer practices? What is meant by a procession with the Bishop? Does that happen ever time he comes to see
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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                              Dear Nikita,

                              Could you tell us more about the Old Believer practices? What is
                              meant by a procession with the Bishop? Does that happen ever time he
                              comes to see you?

                              Are the liturgical sermons long? Are they read in English? I had
                              heard that someone was translating them into English. Someone else
                              commented that it would be far better to read the sermons of St. John
                              Chrysostom because there was according to him some question if the
                              liturgical sermons are really from him. Your comments would be
                              helpful...Thank you...Stephan in Ottawa


                              -- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Archimandrite Kyril,
                              >
                              > You've got to be kidding. In all sincerity, I must ask you: how can
                              > you do an unnabreviated vigil in 1 hour 20 minutes?
                              >
                              > Last night in our parish we started Great Compline at 6:00 PM, and
                              it
                              > took a least an hour for that service. The Litya takes at least 20
                              > minutes, and the 6 Psalms take 15-20 minutes. The 2 Kathismata each
                              > take about 15 minutes. We managed to start the Canons at 9:15,
                              > finishing them at 10:30. With the Praises, Great Doxology and 2
                              > Litanies it took us to 11:00 PM. We finished the First Hour at 11:15
                              > PM. (And I might add that there were approximately 250 people in
                              > church last night - for nearly the entire service.)
                              >
                              > This morning we started the Midnight Office at 6:00 AM (I know, this
                              > service is not appointed for days with a Vigil, but we do it
                              anyway),
                              > then at about 6:40 we met the archbishop and had the procession,
                              > entrance and vesting. Then we began the Hours and Hierarchical
                              > Liturgy, finishing up at about 10:45.
                              >
                              > I realize that those of us who use the Old Rite have a different
                              sense
                              > of time, but I am completely aware of the fact that the differences
                              > between our Typicons (Old and New Rites) is really quite minor. OK,
                              we
                              > did sing about a dozen of the stichera in Great Znamenny Chant, but
                              > even that doesn't add more than about 10 minutes to the total length
                              > of time involved. And I feel that our readers were reading too fast
                              > last night. Moreover, we did not read any of the liturgical homilies
                              > that are appointed in the Old Rite.
                              >
                              > Forgive me if I am "putting you on the spot", but I really want to
                              > know how you accomplished this amazing feat in so brief a time.
                              >
                              > A joyous Nativity to you!
                              >
                              > Nikita Simmons
                              > Woodburn, Oregon
                              >
                              > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kyril Jenner" <kyril@m...> wrote:
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@y...>
                              > > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 6:58 AM
                              > > Subject: [ustav] Re: Choppy Vigils
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > unabbreviated
                              > > > Great Compline with the sung festal Lity/Aposticha material
                              would
                              > > > seem to me to take about an hour,
                              > >
                              > > It took us about 1 hour 20 minutes last night. That was with
                              > virtually no
                              > > cuts and mainly fairly simple singing.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                            • Nikita Simmons
                              ... First of all, we are talking about Old Rite practices. (The term Old Believer designates a religious stance of remaining apart from the Moscow
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephanlh" <stephanlh@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Nikita,
                                >
                                > Could you tell us more about the Old Believer practices?

                                First of all, we are talking about "Old Rite" practices. (The term
                                "Old Believer" designates a religious stance of remaining apart from
                                the Moscow Patriarchate or ROCOR, and includes both priested and
                                priestless communities.)

                                In theory, there is very little difference between Old and New Rite
                                liturgical practices. The prime differences are philosophical and
                                cultural, and this influences how we interpret the same liturgical
                                books and pass the traditions down to our children. Old Ritualists
                                preserve the medieval form of Russian Orthodoxy (and culture), whereas
                                the modern Russian Church has been transformed by Patriarch Nikon's
                                textual reforms, Peter the Great's Spiritual Regulation, and the
                                wholesale importation of Western European culture which replaced the
                                old ways (choral/harmonized singing, sentimental iconography, western
                                clothing and grooming standards, etc.). There is now very little of
                                modern Russian culture which is authentically Russian in origin, but
                                for Old Believers it is a different story.

                                For Old Ritualists, we do not consider the Typicon to be primarily a
                                monastic book, as folks in the New Rite usually do. In fact, we do not
                                make a great distinction between monastic and lay services, except for
                                the monastic Cell Rule and rubrics in the Typicon that are
                                specifically for monastic officials. So, this means that we attempt to
                                observe the Typicon in its fullness, observing a full cycle of serves
                                (even in small parishes). We do not pick and choose what we want to
                                do, nor do we allow any abbreviation of the services. We also do not
                                think about the passage of time when we are in church, so long
                                services don't phase us in the least bit. (You never hear Old
                                Ritualists grumbling when the priest suddenly decides to add a full
                                Moleben at the end of Liturgy.)

                                So, if you were to attend an Old Rite church, be prepared for lengthy
                                services. You have to re-train your mind to stop thinking about time
                                passing, and you need to cast aside all your earthly cares. And most
                                important: wear very comfortable shoes. (And have a good meal before
                                Vigil.) Come and be prepared to settle in for the long haul, and you
                                will notice that people are actually very happy to hang out for the
                                whole evening in church - every Saturday evening - with God and with
                                each other as a community.

                                The other thing that you will notice is complete liturgical unity and
                                a heightened sense of order and discipline. We stand in one place,
                                with arms folded (the old way of standing at prayer), and we make all
                                our Signs of the Cross and bows simultaneously, not whenever we feel
                                like it. (These occasions are governed by the books.) We also sing all
                                the services in one voice (monophonic chant), not in choral polyphony.
                                When modern Russians venture into an Old Rite church they are usually
                                shocked by the differences.

                                Now as to actual differences in liturgics, there are many, but with
                                only a few exceptions they are subtle. The biggest differences: At
                                Vespers on Saturday evening we always do a Litya. At Matins we always
                                do the 17th Kathisma after the 2nd and 3rd Kathisma. At the Hours we
                                read the 3rd, 6th and 9th Hours, the portions of the Obednitsa not
                                used at the Liturgy, and the Rite of Forgiveness and a Dismissal. At
                                the Liturgy we usually read the first 2 psalms and sing Psalm 33 at
                                the end, and we sing a special sticheron to the Cross while we
                                venerate it following the Liturgy. Panykhidas and Molebens are done in
                                full and generally take 40 minutes to do.

                                > What is
                                > meant by a procession with the Bishop? Does that happen ever time he
                                > comes to see you?

                                The chanters go over to the bishop's residence before the Hours, and
                                we chant appointed hymns to accompany him as he walks to church. Then
                                we begin the vesting and Hours in church. After services are over, we
                                walk him back to his residence, chanting appointed hymns. These are
                                all appointed in the Chinovnik.

                                > Are the liturgical sermons long? Are they read in English? I had
                                > heard that someone was translating them into English. Someone else
                                > commented that it would be far better to read the sermons of St. John
                                > Chrysostom because there was according to him some question if the
                                > liturgical sermons are really from him. Your comments would be
                                > helpful...Thank you...Stephan in Ottawa


                                Yes, they generally tend to be long, but we can split them up by doing
                                portions after the Sessional Hymns at Matins, and after the 3rd and
                                6th Odes of the Canons. The Church of the Nativity in Erie,
                                Pennsylvania has translated all the Sunday Sermons (mostly by St. John
                                Chrysostom), and this has already been published (I don't have details
                                at hand).

                                In XC,
                                Nikita
                              • bradley anderson
                                NIkita, A few more questions about the Old Rite practices you ... What percentage of parishioners attend all of a given Sat/Sun cycle of services in a typical
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                  NIkita,

                                  A few more questions about the Old Rite practices you
                                  mention:

                                  --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:

                                  > We do not pick and choose
                                  > what we want to
                                  > do, nor do we allow any abbreviation of the
                                  > services.

                                  What percentage of parishioners attend all of a given
                                  Sat/Sun cycle of services in a typical Old Rite
                                  parish?

                                  > Now as to actual differences in liturgics, there are
                                  > many, but with
                                  > only a few exceptions they are subtle. The biggest
                                  > differences: At
                                  > Vespers on Saturday evening we always do a Litya.

                                  Do you read or sing Psalm 103 at the beginning of
                                  Vespers, and if sung, is it done in its entirety?
                                  Same question on the 1st Kathisma.

                                  I seem to recall you saying that Compline and Midnight
                                  office are read as well, even when there is a Vigil.
                                  Am I remembering this correctly? And that the Canons
                                  and prayers before communion are also read in church
                                  communally on Saturday night after the Vigil?

                                  > At
                                  > Matins we always
                                  > do the 17th Kathisma after the 2nd and 3rd Kathisma.

                                  Is part or all of the 17th Kathisma sung, or is it all
                                  read? I assume that the Polyeleos, when appointed, is
                                  done after this -- again, is part of the Polyeleos
                                  read? I seem to recall that you said that the modern
                                  Russian practice of reading the sessionals, the canon
                                  troparia, etc... is also done in the Old Rite.

                                  > The Church of the Nativity
                                  > in Erie,
                                  > Pennsylvania has translated all the Sunday Sermons
                                  > (mostly by St. John
                                  > Chrysostom), and this has already been published (I
                                  > don't have details
                                  > at hand).
                                  >

                                  This excellent book was translated by Fr. German
                                  Ciuba, who was also largely responsible for the very
                                  nice translation of the Old Rite Prayer Book. This
                                  book is available at www.sjkp.org -- do a search for
                                  "The Gospel Commentary." Keep in mind that the
                                  commentaries on the Sunday Gospels will not come in
                                  sequential order for those following the Lucan jump.
                                  It is well-worth buying.

                                  Also, Nikita, is the sermon from this book the only
                                  one that is read in modern Old Rite practice on
                                  Sundays? Or are other liturgical readings appointed
                                  and/or done? Is a sermon preached by the priest as
                                  well, and where in the service is this done?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Bradley (Edward) Anderson





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                                • Nikita Simmons
                                  ... Dear Bradley, I ll try to answer them, but it s been a long day, so I ll try to be brief. ... Now that is very hard to answer. It really depends on
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > NIkita,
                                    >
                                    > A few more questions about the Old Rite practices you
                                    > mention:

                                    Dear Bradley,

                                    I'll try to answer them, but it's been a long day, so I'll try to be
                                    brief.

                                    > --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > We do not pick and choose
                                    > > what we want to
                                    > > do, nor do we allow any abbreviation of the
                                    > > services.
                                    >
                                    > What percentage of parishioners attend all of a given
                                    > Sat/Sun cycle of services in a typical Old Rite
                                    > parish?

                                    Now that is very hard to answer. It really depends on countless
                                    factors: which community you are discussing, how busy the work season
                                    is (especially during harvest seasons here in Oregon, when many folks
                                    must harvest their source of yearly income), how bad the cold/flu
                                    season is, etc., etc. But on the average we do have about 40 to 50 per
                                    cent of the parish attending Vigil and 80 percent attending Hours and
                                    Liturgy for regular weekends. Middle Rank Feasts is somewhat higher
                                    attendance, while Great Feasts usually have 100 per cent attendance.
                                    Weddings have a lower attendance than in the New Rite, because it is
                                    usually viewed as a more intimate or "family and close friends"
                                    service. Funerals, of course, elicit a 95 per cent attendance, and
                                    Nativity and Pascha get a 125 to 150 per cent attendance (with folks
                                    appearing out of the blue). Realy, though, it varies a lot from place
                                    to place.

                                    > > Now as to actual differences in liturgics, there are
                                    > > many, but with
                                    > > only a few exceptions they are subtle. The biggest
                                    > > differences: At
                                    > > Vespers on Saturday evening we always do a Litya.
                                    >
                                    > Do you read or sing Psalm 103 at the beginning of
                                    > Vespers, and if sung, is it done in its entirety?
                                    > Same question on the 1st Kathisma.

                                    It depends on the rank of the day and service whether we read it or
                                    sing it. At vigils it is both read AND sung. See this article (on my
                                    website) for a bit more of an explanation:
                                    http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/research/simmons/stichologia.html

                                    > I seem to recall you saying that Compline and Midnight
                                    > office are read as well, even when there is a Vigil.
                                    > Am I remembering this correctly?

                                    Yes, this is correct. The Typicon is pretty clear that Small Compline
                                    is always done on Saturday evenings. Sunday Midnight Office... well,
                                    the Typicon is silent on the matter, but the Octoechos provides an
                                    order of services and a Canon to the Trinity for each Tone, so clearly
                                    it is intended to be observed.

                                    > And that the Canons
                                    > and prayers before communion are also read in church
                                    > communally on Saturday night after the Vigil?

                                    This is correct for Oregon, but the Erie parish does not observe this
                                    custom (they say their prayers privately at home).

                                    > > At
                                    > > Matins we always
                                    > > do the 17th Kathisma after the 2nd and 3rd Kathisma.
                                    >
                                    > Is part or all of the 17th Kathisma sung, or is it all
                                    > read?

                                    It depends on the tradition of Old Ritualists. Here in Oregon the 17th
                                    Kathisma is always read in full. In Erie they sing selected verses.

                                    > I assume that the Polyeleos, when appointed, is
                                    > done after this -- again, is part of the Polyeleos
                                    > read?

                                    The entire text of the Polieleos (and selected Psalms when there is a
                                    Velichanie) is read, and the chanters antiphonally repeat selected
                                    verses. (In the New Rite, the choirs sing only these selected verses.)

                                    > I seem to recall that you said that the modern
                                    > Russian practice of reading the sessionals, the canon
                                    > troparia, etc... is also done in the Old Rite.

                                    Yes, this is true.

                                    > Also, Nikita, is the sermon from this book the only
                                    > one that is read in modern Old Rite practice on
                                    > Sundays? Or are other liturgical readings appointed
                                    > and/or done?

                                    This is one of several available books of liturgical homilies. I
                                    believe the one published by Erie is called "Zlatoust" (Golden-mouth),
                                    which is the collection of Sunday sermons (on the themes of the Gospel
                                    readings) attributed to St. John Chrysostom. "Torzhestvennik" (Book of
                                    Triumphs?) provides sermons by a number of patristic writers on the
                                    Great Feasts. "Margarit" (The Pearl) is attributed to St. John
                                    Chrysostom, although I am not familiar with its contents or use (it's
                                    not widely distributed). "Lestvitsa" (The Ladder) of St. John Klimakos
                                    is read during the Hours of Great Lent. The Catechetical Lectures of
                                    St. Cyril of Jerusalem are read during the Lenten weekday services. We
                                    also have "Blagovest" (Good News), which is a Gospel Commentary by
                                    various writers, as well as "Tolkovoi apostol" and "Tolkovoi psaltyr"
                                    (Epistle Commentary and Psalter Commentary), which are used more as
                                    "Bible study" or reference books, with the goal of presenting official
                                    interpretations of the Scriptures for the faithful. The Acts of the
                                    Apostles are usually read in monasteries between Vespers and Matins
                                    when there is a Vigil, and several books may be read in the refectory,
                                    including the "Chetii minei" (Reading Menaion), "Prolog" (Prologue)
                                    and "Trefoloi" (Trephologion?). Other books that may be read at Matins
                                    are "Pouchenii" (Teachings) by St. Ephraim the Syrian (read after the
                                    Kathismata), and "Synaxar" (Synaxarion), which is read after the 6th
                                    Ode of the Canon. (There are several other volumes as well, but their
                                    use is not as common or known today.)

                                    > Is a sermon preached by the priest as
                                    > well, and where in the service is this done?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    >
                                    > Bradley (Edward) Anderson

                                    No, sermons are not appointed. But it is the spiritual legacy of the
                                    Church reformers just before Patriarch Nikon, including the Archpriest
                                    Avvakum and other members of the "Revniteli blagochestia" (The Zealots
                                    of Piety, a grass-roots movement of married clergy who fought against
                                    many social problems), that sermons be written by clergy and delivered
                                    following the Liturgy. This custom continued in both the Old and New
                                    Rites.

                                    Nikita
                                  • bradley anderson
                                    ... Nikita, thanks to you and to Fr. John for your detailed and informative answers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 12, 2005
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                                      --- Nikita Simmons <starina77@...> wrote:
                                      > I'll try to answer them, but it's been a long day,
                                      > so I'll try to be
                                      > brief.
                                      >


                                      Nikita, thanks to you and to Fr. John for your
                                      detailed and informative answers.

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