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Re: Latin liturgy question

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  • Sergius Miller
    ... deacon ... Dear James, They do not appear to be an interpolation; they were omitted from the Exsultet in many areas north of the Alps during the Middle
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 30, 2004
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      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@c...> wrote:
      > I believe that this is heard in the Exultet, the hymn sung by the
      deacon
      > before the Paschal candle.
      >
      > The hymn itself is very old but I don't know if these words are an
      > interpolation.
      >
      > Rdr. James
      > Olympia, WA


      Dear James,

      They do not appear to be an interpolation; they were omitted from the
      Exsultet in many areas north of the Alps during the Middle Ages.

      There are 3 families of Exsultet texts: Ambrosian, Beneventan, & the
      common text. The Beneventan became extinct; the Ambrosian was
      limited in area. The common text in one form or another spread
      throughout the west.

      As you said the text is very old.

      Sergius


      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: bradley anderson [mailto:andersonbradley@y...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:29 PM
      > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [ustav] Latin liturgy question
      >
      >
      > Dear all,
      >
      > I encountered a statement about a line in the Roman
      > Catholic liturgy at their Easter Vigil Mass. "O happy
      > fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so
      > great a Redeemer."
      >
      > My desire is not to discuss the theological
      > particularities of the phrase, but simply to ask two
      > questions:
      >
      > 1. How ancient is this line in the Roman liturgy?
      > Perhaps Fr. John Shaw in particular could answer this
      > one.
      >
      > 2. Are there similar statements in our hymnology,
      > speaking of the necessity of Adam's sinning, or
      > implying that it was God's plan for man to fall?
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
    • stephen_r1937
      I don t recall whether Felix culpa is an interpolation in the Exultet--Fr John Shaw will know--but there are passages that appear in some sources and not in
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 1, 2004
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        I don't recall whether Felix culpa is an interpolation in the Exultet--Fr John Shaw will know--but there are passages that appear in some sources and not in others; one of these, if memory serves, is the praise of the bee.

        Felix culpa is certainly an odd perspective; could it perhaps be understood in the sense that it is better that it be expiated, and that in an amazing manner, than that it go unabsolved? That should not be controversial (except to the opposition, of course). If the sense is that it is better that Adam fell, so that God is motivated to the Incarnation and the entire economy of salvation, than that the state of paradise should have been perpetuated, with Adam and Eve in their pre-fall state, then it becomes questionable; and this seems to be the usual understanding. Better Latinists than I (Fr John; Fr Aidan Keller) will be able to sort this out.

        Stephen

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@c...> wrote:
        > I believe that this is heard in the Exultet, the hymn sung by the deacon
        > before the Paschal candle.
        >
        > The hymn itself is very old but I don't know if these words are an
        > interpolation.
        >
        > Rdr. James
        > Olympia, WA
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: bradley anderson [mailto:andersonbradley@y...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:29 PM
        > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [ustav] Latin liturgy question
        >
        >
        > Dear all,
        >
        > I encountered a statement about a line in the Roman
        > Catholic liturgy at their Easter Vigil Mass. "O happy
        > fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so
        > great a Redeemer."
        >
        > My desire is not to discuss the theological
        > particularities of the phrase, but simply to ask two
        > questions:
        >
        > 1. How ancient is this line in the Roman liturgy?
        > Perhaps Fr. John Shaw in particular could answer this
        > one.
        >
        > 2. Are there similar statements in our hymnology,
        > speaking of the necessity of Adam's sinning, or
        > implying that it was God's plan for man to fall?
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Bradley (Edward) Anderson
      • stephen_r1937
        Dear Sergius, Is it then the case that the Felix culpa sentence occurs invariably in the Ambrosian and Beneventan texttypes, and in the common text except in
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 1, 2004
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          Dear Sergius,

          Is it then the case that the Felix culpa sentence occurs invariably in the Ambrosian and Beneventan texttypes, and in the common text except in northern Europe?

          Stephen

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...> wrote:

          >
          > They do not appear to be an interpolation; they were omitted from the
          > Exsultet in many areas north of the Alps during the Middle Ages.
          >
          > There are 3 families of Exsultet texts: Ambrosian, Beneventan, & the
          > common text. The Beneventan became extinct; the Ambrosian was
          > limited in area. The common text in one form or another spread
          > throughout the west.
          >
          > As you said the text is very old.
          >
        • Sergius Miller
          ... in the Ambrosian and Beneventan texttypes, and in the common text except in northern Europe? ... Dear Stephen, As nearly as I can determine it appears in
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 1, 2004
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            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Sergius,
            >
            > Is it then the case that the Felix culpa sentence occurs invariably
            in the Ambrosian and Beneventan texttypes, and in the common text
            except in northern Europe?
            >
            > Stephen

            Dear Stephen,
            As nearly as I can determine it appears in the common text in all
            earlier along w/the praise of the bee. It along w/the praise of the
            bee was later omitted in many but by no means all the northern texts.

            I can't answer either way on the Ambrosian or Beneventan texts.

            In XC,
            Sergius
            >
            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...>
            wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > They do not appear to be an interpolation; they were omitted from
            the
            > > Exsultet in many areas north of the Alps during the Middle Ages.
            > >
            > > There are 3 families of Exsultet texts: Ambrosian, Beneventan, &
            the
            > > common text. The Beneventan became extinct; the Ambrosian was
            > > limited in area. The common text in one form or another spread
            > > throughout the west.
            > >
            > > As you said the text is very old.
            > >
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