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Re: [ustav] Re: sing vs chant, ortho-speak

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  • Christopher Orr & Melanie Cortier
    Our choir director always simply called it chanting straight and my Greek priest refers to it as intoning . On this thread there also seems to be a
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Our choir director always simply called it chanting "straight" and my
      Greek priest refers to it as "intoning". On this thread there also
      seems to be a difference between the musicologists and those who just
      simply sing in the choir. What is understood perfectly well by the
      latter is know to the former to be imprecise.

      Christopher

      On Monday, November 1, 2004, at 01:33 PM, stephen_r1937 wrote:

      >
      > Well, alas, "plainchant" is already spoken for also. In Western
      > terminology, it is usually synonymous with "Gregorian," although it
      > could also refer to such other varieties as Ambrosian or Old Roman. In
      > Eastern usage, "prostop�nije" (literally "plain chant" and sometimes
      > so translated in English writings) is a useful term encompassing
      > Carpatho-Rusyn church singning, which consists of Znamenny, the local
      > variant of Kievan, and the Bulgarian Chant systems together with later
      > melodic strata.
      >
      > Stephen
      >
      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr & Melanie Cortier
      > <cjomlc@j...> wrote:
      > > What about "plainchant" or "straight chant"?� To a layman unfamiliar
      > > with different chant traditions, the musical chant to various tones
      > and
      > > the reader's recitative (a word most people would not know) are just
      > > different types of chant- one plain and the other less plain.
      > >
      > > Christopher
      >
      >
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    • stephen_r1937
      ... And down to the present Russians may read poetry in this way. I have heard this myself. Stephen
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2004
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        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...> wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > > To the discussion of the "ekphonetic" notation in old manuscripts,
        > indicating the scriptural lections were intoned with a variety of
        > melodic formulae and cadences in prescribed places, let me add that
        > this is also the practice of the Synagogue, and is no doubt simply an
        > inheritance from Judaism and hence a feature of Christian practice
        > from the first generation on.
        > >
        > > Stephen
        >
        > Dear Stephen,
        >
        > This may also be from the Greco-Roman world. Ancient orations were
        > declaimed in much the same way we declaim the readings. I have been
        > told by classicists that, e.g., Cicero's famous orations were done
        > this way.
        >
        > Sergius

        And down to the present Russians may read poetry in this way. I have heard this myself.

        Stephen
      • psomalis@hol.gr
        Let me answer, although I am no liturgical scholar. Spoken voice=chyma Epistle style= emmelhs apaggelia (melodic recitation). The Russian style reading of the
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2004
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          Let me answer, although I am no liturgical scholar.
          Spoken voice=chyma
          Epistle style= emmelhs apaggelia (melodic recitation).
          The Russian style reading of the psalms is still melodic recitation, although a
          very simple one, which one hardly gets to hear from the reader. Some priests
          recite thus the litanies on weeekdays.
          Official service books give no full instructions as to the style of reading; it
          is something we simply have learnt.
          There is no special term for spoken voice reading with the last
          phrase(s)intoned. Personally I dislike that, as in most cases the priest or
          deacon starts the following litany in a totally different key! So, why bother!

          Panagiotis

          Αρχικό μήνυμα από stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@...>:

          >
          >
          > Panagiotis, let me raise the terminological issue again. What, in Greek, to
          > you call reading in a conversational voice; what do you call the sort of
          > liturgical recitative employed in Russian and other churches that almost
          > never use the conversational voice; what do you call the traditional way of
          > reading the Epistle and Gospel, if your bishop does not insist on the
          > conversational voice; what is "chyma;" and what do you call the practice, at
          > the end of a reading in conversational voice, of singing the last phrase to a
          > brief melody, usually repeated by someone else and reiterated by the original
          > reader (at least at the parish I attend)?
          >
          > To the discussion of the "ekphonetic" notation in old manuscripts, indicating
          > the scriptural lections were intoned with a variety of melodic formulae and
          > cadences in prescribed places, let me add that this is also the practice of
          > the Synagogue, and is no doubt simply an inheritance from Judaism and hence a
          > feature of Christian practice from the first generation on.
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, psomalis@h... wrote:
          > > When in September 1989 I attended a Vigil for the Feast of the Cross in
          > the
          > > Ennismore Gardens Cathedral in London I was very surprised to hear the 6
          > psalms
          > > recited as the Russians do them!
          > >
          > > Standard Greeek practice is:
          > > 1) Vespers: all readings are done in a spoken voice. The only exception is
          > any
          > > NT readings appointed for Feasts of Apostles; they are recited as the
          > epistle
          > > style is. It is also common, if the one that reads is musically capable,
          > to
          > > 'intone' the last phrase of a reading (e.g. "but deliver us from the evil
          > > one").
          > >
          > > 2) Matins: all readings are done as for Vespers. The psalms of the Royal
          > Office
          > > are recited 'epistle' style. If there is a morning Gospel it might be
          > > melodically recited, or the last phrase thereof might be intoned.
          > >
          > > 3) Liturgy: Epistle and Gospel are recited in their styles. The Synod has
          > issued
          > > an encyclical ordering readers and clergy to recite simply. The Creed and
          > the
          > > Lord's Prayer are said in a spoken voice; in many churches they are recited
          > by
          > > the whole congregation. The singing of the Creed and the Lord's prayer is
          > > explicitly forbidden within the Archdiocese of Athens and in a number of
          > other
          > > dioceses.
          > >
          > >
          > > I hope this helps.
          > >
          > > Panagiotis
          > >
          > > Αρχικό μήνυμα από Christopher Orr & Melanie Cortier <cjomlc@j...>:
          > >
          > > >
          > > > What is the Greek practice in reading in the church? Is everything
          > > > supposed to be intoned as is common with the Russians, or are there
          > > > more times where texts are simply read in a regular voice? I get
          > > > confused and it may just be the practice of some to do it one way, but
          > > > the standard calls for something else in the rubrics.
          > > >
          > > > For instance, in Fr. Seraphim Dede's Orthros text for today the Hypakoe
          > > > and Ikos was called to be "read".
          > > >
          > > > Christopher
          > > >
          > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2004, at 02:55 PM, Bob Ferrari wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > We "sing" things which have tones or music assigned to them and
          > > > > "chant" the
          > > > > readings i.e. things assigned to be read. I haven't had anyone
          > > > > interested in
          > > > > the Faith get "chanting" mixed up with Buddhism or some other
          > > > > religion, at
          > > > > least not for long.
          > > > > Paul Ferrari
          > > > > St Andrew Fool for Christ
          > > > > Serbian Orthodox Church
          > > > > Redding, Ca.
          > > > > flue@c...
          > > > >
          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > From: "Philip Silouan Thompson" <himself@p...>
          > > > > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 9:22 AM
          > > > > Subject: Re: [ustav] sing vs chant, ortho-speak
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Rebecca Redmile said:
          > > > > > I find I try to avoid the word "chant," though of course,
          > > > > > "cantor" or even "canting" seems somehow more palatable.
          > > > > > What do people think?
          > > > >
          > > > > When I'm describing our worship to non-Christians I never say "chant"
          > > > > any
          > > > > more, as they usually assume it means sitting in a circle in orange
          > > > > robes
          > > > > droning "Nam myoho renge kyo" or something.
          > > > >
          > > > > We have a choir director who makes our Sunday morning choir sound
          > > > > lovely.
          > > > > She's also the director of our city's Choral Society. What the Sunday
          > > > > morning choir does is singing, the same as at any choir concert.
          > > > >
          > > > > By default I seem to have wound up leading the "cantors", the smaller
          > > > > group of people who show up at the cantor stand for daily Matins and
          > > > > Vespers and weekday Liturgies. We cantors do virtually everything in
          > > > > Kievan or Carpatho-Russian tones, and might not have any "music" in
          > > > > front
          > > > > of us at all during a given service.
          > > > >
          > > > > To distinguish the one kind of singing from the other, we artificially
          > > > > call what the cantors do "chanting" and what the Sunday choir does
          > > > > "singing," even though we know the words mean the same thing. It comes
          >
          > > > > in
          > > > > handy - during major feasts we keep finding things we should have been
          > > > > doing, and don't have music for, so the choir director will say "Now
          > > > > the
          > > > > cantors will chant this, then we will sing this next thing..."
          > > > >
          > > > > In Christ,
          > > > >
          > > > > Silouan Thompson
          > > > > Walla Walla, Washington
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
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        • gugushvili
          I think an up-to-date exposition of the issues concerning reading styles in the Byzantine practice was given in the two-day symposium Ekphonetic notation and
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2004
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            I think an up-to-date exposition of the issues concerning reading
            styles in the Byzantine practice was given in the two-day symposium
            "Ekphonetic notation and practice" organised by the Institute of the
            Byzantine Musicology of the Church of Greece (Athens, 9-10 November,
            2001). There's a review paper published by the organiser, Prof. Gr.
            Stathis in Ekklesia, the magazine of the Church of Greece, see

            www.ecclesia.gr/greek/press/ekklisia/EKKLISIA_2002_MAIOS/MAIOS_all.pdf

            The event was attended by many "important" people.

            There were several sessions presenting both research papers and
            practical performances.

            1st session:

            Readings from Prophetologion. Speakers were: Em. Mikroyannakis, Ath.
            Vourlis and K. Karagounis. Anagnostes: Archimandrite Chrysostomos
            Stavropoulos, Ath. Vourlis and A. Chaldaiakis.

            2nd session:

            Readings from Apostolos. Speakers: Metr. John Zizioulas, A.
            Alygizakis, K. Ganotis, G. Lykouras. Anagnostes: L. Asteris
            (Archcantor of the Great Church), Ch. Taliadoros (Honorary
            Archcantor), D. Nerantzis, I. Arvanitis.

            3rd session: Readings from the Gospel. Speakers: Fr. George
            Metallinos, I. Galanis, Fr. Thomas Chrysikos. Readers: Fr. Thomas
            Chrysikos, Fr. Christos Kyriakopoulos, Fr. Dimitrios Nikou, Dn.
            Ioannis Theodoropoulos.

            4th session: Reading of the Akathist and the Kontakion of the
            Nativity. Speakers: P. Paschos, Fr. Ananias Koustenis, A. Chaldaiakis.
            Readers: Fr. Panagiotis Ioakeim, Archimandrite Theophilos
            Bougioukelas, Fr. Nikolaos Rimikis.

            5th session: Reading of the prayers and making ekphonesis. Speakers:
            Gr. Stathis, K. Georgousopoulos. G. Filias. Several priests and
            deacons presented the examples.

            On the 10th of November there was a concert with "Maistores of the
            Psaltic Art" and many important Protopsaltai participating in it. On
            the 11th there was an Archieratic Liturgy.

            As far as the old examples are concerned, Gregorios Protopsaltis
            recorded a few verses from the Gospel and Apostolos in Mode 4 Agia
            (with chroa kliton). In 1868 Kyriakos Philoxenis recorded the
            beginning of the first oikos of the Akathist and the evfimnion "Chaire
            nimfi anumfevte", again in Mode 4 Agia (with chroa kliton). As a
            symbol kliton I think was known from the 10th c. under the name of
            imifthoron. Finally, in 1905 K. Psachos has recorded further examples
            from the Gospel and the Apostolos in the same mode.

            If the proceedings of this symposium are available, this would be an
            invaluable source.

            Finally, there are two examples of the Epistle reading on the web (in
            the Byzantine tradition):

            1) Archon Protopsaltis (Archcantor) of the Great Church Th. Stanitsas
            (the quality of the recording is regretfully low)

            www.houpas.com/music/DH_Apostolos_Stan.rm

            2) Prokeimenon and Apostolos from the CD "Arate Pylas" by the
            "Maistores of the Psaltic Art"

            www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/multimedia/arate_pylas/10.html

            Shota
          • psomalis@hol.gr
            ... Indeed they are available, but I did not bother to buy them. If you are interested, I could find the ISBN for you. Panagiotis
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2004
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              > If the proceedings of this symposium are available, this would be an
              > invaluable source.

              Indeed they are available, but I did not bother to buy them. If you are
              interested, I could find the ISBN for you.

              Panagiotis
            • stephen_r1937
              Thanks, Panagiotis. I was sort of hoping that a word would come up that could serve for the function for which chant is misused in this country. It appears
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 2, 2004
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                Thanks, Panagiotis. I was sort of hoping that a word would come up that could serve for the function for which "chant" is misused in this country. It appears that "recite" is the best choice, if not entirely free of ambiguity.

                Stephen

                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, psomalis@h... wrote:
                > Let me answer, although I am no liturgical scholar.
                > Spoken voice=chyma
                > Epistle style= emmelhs apaggelia (melodic recitation).
                > The Russian style reading of the psalms is still melodic recitation, although a
                > very simple one, which one hardly gets to hear from the reader. Some priests
                > recite thus the litanies on weeekdays.
                > Official service books give no full instructions as to the style of reading; it
                > is something we simply have learnt.
                > There is no special term for spoken voice reading with the last
                > phrase(s)intoned. Personally I dislike that, as in most cases the priest or
                > deacon starts the following litany in a totally different key! So, why bother!
                >
                > Panagiotis
                >
                > Áñ÷éêü ìÞíõìá áðü stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@l...>:
                >
              • stephen_r1937
                Thank you for this notice, Shota. If anyone discovers how to get the proceeding of this symposium, please post the information! Stephen
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 2, 2004
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                  Thank you for this notice, Shota. If anyone discovers how to get the proceeding of this symposium, please post the information!

                  Stephen

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "gugushvili" <gugushvili@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think an up-to-date exposition of the issues concerning reading
                  > styles in the Byzantine practice was given in the two-day symposium
                  > "Ekphonetic notation and practice" organised by the Institute of the
                  > Byzantine Musicology of the Church of Greece (Athens, 9-10 November,
                  > 2001). There's a review paper published by the organiser, Prof. Gr.
                  > Stathis in Ekklesia, the magazine of the Church of Greece, see
                  >
                  > www.ecclesia.gr/greek/press/ekklisia/EKKLISIA_2002_MAIOS/MAIOS_all.pdf
                  >
                  > The event was attended by many "important" people.
                  >
                  > There were several sessions presenting both research papers and
                  > practical performances.
                  >
                  > 1st session:
                  >
                  > Readings from Prophetologion. Speakers were: Em. Mikroyannakis, Ath.
                  > Vourlis and K. Karagounis. Anagnostes: Archimandrite Chrysostomos
                  > Stavropoulos, Ath. Vourlis and A. Chaldaiakis.
                  >
                  > 2nd session:
                  >
                  > Readings from Apostolos. Speakers: Metr. John Zizioulas, A.
                  > Alygizakis, K. Ganotis, G. Lykouras. Anagnostes: L. Asteris
                  > (Archcantor of the Great Church), Ch. Taliadoros (Honorary
                  > Archcantor), D. Nerantzis, I. Arvanitis.
                  >
                  > 3rd session: Readings from the Gospel. Speakers: Fr. George
                  > Metallinos, I. Galanis, Fr. Thomas Chrysikos. Readers: Fr. Thomas
                  > Chrysikos, Fr. Christos Kyriakopoulos, Fr. Dimitrios Nikou, Dn.
                  > Ioannis Theodoropoulos.
                  >
                  > 4th session: Reading of the Akathist and the Kontakion of the
                  > Nativity. Speakers: P. Paschos, Fr. Ananias Koustenis, A. Chaldaiakis.
                  > Readers: Fr. Panagiotis Ioakeim, Archimandrite Theophilos
                  > Bougioukelas, Fr. Nikolaos Rimikis.
                  >
                  > 5th session: Reading of the prayers and making ekphonesis. Speakers:
                  > Gr. Stathis, K. Georgousopoulos. G. Filias. Several priests and
                  > deacons presented the examples.
                  >
                  > On the 10th of November there was a concert with "Maistores of the
                  > Psaltic Art" and many important Protopsaltai participating in it. On
                  > the 11th there was an Archieratic Liturgy.
                  >
                  > As far as the old examples are concerned, Gregorios Protopsaltis
                  > recorded a few verses from the Gospel and Apostolos in Mode 4 Agia
                  > (with chroa kliton). In 1868 Kyriakos Philoxenis recorded the
                  > beginning of the first oikos of the Akathist and the evfimnion "Chaire
                  > nimfi anumfevte", again in Mode 4 Agia (with chroa kliton). As a
                  > symbol kliton I think was known from the 10th c. under the name of
                  > imifthoron. Finally, in 1905 K. Psachos has recorded further examples
                  > from the Gospel and the Apostolos in the same mode.
                  >
                  > If the proceedings of this symposium are available, this would be an
                  > invaluable source.
                  >
                  > Finally, there are two examples of the Epistle reading on the web (in
                  > the Byzantine tradition):
                  >
                  > 1) Archon Protopsaltis (Archcantor) of the Great Church Th. Stanitsas
                  > (the quality of the recording is regretfully low)
                  >
                  > www.houpas.com/music/DH_Apostolos_Stan.rm
                  >
                  > 2) Prokeimenon and Apostolos from the CD "Arate Pylas" by the
                  > "Maistores of the Psaltic Art"
                  >
                  > www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/multimedia/arate_pylas/10.html
                  >
                  > Shota
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