Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests prayers

Expand Messages
  • Irene
    I would be very sad to attend a parish that had services that were only an hour an 1/2 long. I love the service as a whole and it is always over too soon,
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 31, 2004
      I would be very sad to attend a parish that had services that were only an hour an 1/2 long. I love the service as a whole and it is always over too soon, even my teenage children agree with me , Church is such a joy it is always so sad when it is over and we tend to stay around for a quite a while afterwards because we don't want to leave.

      As for the beautitudes, I absolutely love singing them and hearing them sung in Church for them to be cut out of the service is really sad.

      If people don't want to stay for the service let them come late as they do anyway - but for those of us who love it - don't shorten it. Please don't shorten it.

      irene


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: kevin.claiborne@...


      Well, it certainly was done to shorten the Liturgy........
      .....What I have heard is that early in the administration of
      Archbishop Iakovos, the principal was announced that the Liturgy should
      not exceed an hour and a half. This led to many of the compressions you
      itemized. Because of the extensive contacts between North America and
      Greece, many of the bad practices were adopted by the mother Churches. But
      they're not according to the Typikon.

      Just to tantalize you, here's another quote from the same diataxis:
      23. The kanons are never left out on the Sundays of the Oktoechos, even if
      it is the Feast of the Mother of God or the leave-taking of a Feast of the
      Master or the Mother of God that has fallen on a Sunday;

      You can read Father Konstantinos Terzopoloulos' excellent translation
      here:

      http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/frc/psprotheoria.html

      KC



      ---
      Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
      Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
      Version: 6.0.745 / Virus Database: 497 - Release Date: 27/08/04

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • stephen_r1937
      Dear Irene, While it may well be that replacing the Typical Psalms + Beatitudes with Antiphons, where the former were previously sung, is motivated by a desire
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
        Dear Irene,

        While it may well be that replacing the Typical Psalms + Beatitudes with Antiphons, where the former were previously sung, is motivated by a desire to shorten the service, the Antiphons did *not* originate as a device for such shortening. Both of these alternatives are expansions of a single psalmodic chant later expanded to a set of three. The Beatitudes with the Typical Psalms prefixed originated in Palestinian monastic practice, and the entrance Antiphon, with two more prefixed, originated in the Cathedral practice of Constantinople. The intercalation of troparia into the Beatitudes is relatively late and also of monastic origin. The Sunday Antiphons as set forth in the book I quoted are sung on Pascha by just about everyone, as far as I know; in *some* traditions, they are also the default usage on Sundays in general. I am still not convinced that this is a recent innovation; it may be a survival of an old practice. The history of all this in Greek practice is unclear. Fr Kevin has shown us that the 19th-century parish typikons essentially repeat the prescription of the Sabaite Typikon, yet this is not what is done in most Greek parishes. Archimandrite Kevin has explained the origin of the book I quoted, and it seems that this line of evidence goes back at least to about the period originally mentioned, ca 1890. Bunching several of the psalm verses together, as done in the Faith Press book, and a fortiori omitting the verses altogether and singing only the refrains, are devices to shorten the Antiphons, surely.

        So the Antiphons themselves are not devices to shorten anything; only their introduction to replace the somewhat longer Typical Psalms + Beatitudes, where these were formerly sung, can be so regarded. And as for the Typical Psalms, it is very common in Russian usage to abridge them by singing only selected verses and not the whole Psalm; and as Panagiotis has told us of a similar abridgment of the Beatitudes, although the only shortening of them that I have encountered in Russian usage is omission of the troparia (which again may be a survival from the days before troparia were introduced)

        Recall too that while you are accustomed to a vigil service Saturday evening and hours + Liturgy Sunday morning, in other traditions, including Greek parish usage, they usually sing Vespers Saturday evening and Mattins and Liturgy Sunday morning. In this case, something is certainly going to be shortened; while most of the shortening takes place in Mattins, it would not be surprising that a ninety-minute Liturgy would seem desirable in this context.

        Stephen

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Irene" <au22796@o...> wrote:
        > I would be very sad to attend a parish that had services that were only an hour an 1/2 long. I love the service as a whole and it is always over too soon, even my teenage children agree with me , Church is such a joy it is always so sad when it is over and we tend to stay around for a quite a while afterwards because we don't want to leave.
        >
        > As for the beautitudes, I absolutely love singing them and hearing them sung in Church for them to be cut out of the service is really sad.
        >
        > If people don't want to stay for the service let them come late as they do anyway - but for those of us who love it - don't shorten it. Please don't shorten it.
        >
        > irene
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: kevin.claiborne@i...
        >
        >
        > Well, it certainly was done to shorten the Liturgy........
        > .....What I have heard is that early in the administration of
        > Archbishop Iakovos, the principal was announced that the Liturgy should
        > not exceed an hour and a half. This led to many of the compressions you
        > itemized. Because of the extensive contacts between North America and
        > Greece, many of the bad practices were adopted by the mother Churches. But
        > they're not according to the Typikon.
        >
        > Just to tantalize you, here's another quote from the same diataxis:
        > 23. The kanons are never left out on the Sundays of the Oktoechos, even if
        > it is the Feast of the Mother of God or the leave-taking of a Feast of the
        > Master or the Mother of God that has fallen on a Sunday;
        >
        > You can read Father Konstantinos Terzopoloulos' excellent translation
        > here:
        >
        > http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/frc/psprotheoria.html
        >
        > KC
      • kyril@mynachdysantelias.fsnet.co.uk
        ... it would not be surprising that a ninety-minute Liturgy would seem desirable in this context. ... In my church a ninety-minute Liturgy would mean
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
          > Message date : Sep 01 2004, 03:08 PM
          > From : "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
          > To : ustav@yahoogroups.com
          > Copy to :
          > Subject : [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests prayers
          >


          it would not be surprising that a ninety-minute Liturgy would seem desirable in this context.
          >

          In my church a ninety-minute Liturgy would mean LENGTHENING the service. As we currently do not leave anything out (we even SING all the troparia on the Beatitudes) this would be difficult to do (other than by making my sermons three times as long as they usually are).

          Archimandrite Kyril Jenner

          --

          Whatever you Wanadoo:
          http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/

          This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
        • sputnikpsalomschchika
          ... service. As we currently do not leave anything out (we even SING all the troparia on the Beatitudes) this would be difficult to do (other than by making
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, kyril@m... wrote:
            > > Message date : Sep 01 2004, 03:08 PM
            > In my church a ninety-minute Liturgy would mean LENGTHENING the
            service. As we currently do not leave anything out (we even SING
            all the troparia on the Beatitudes) this would be difficult to do
            (other than by making my sermons three times as long as they usually
            are).
            >
            > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner

            WOW! Your choir must sing VERY FAST! Of course, you also probably
            only serve in one language too.

            Reader Michael Malloy
            Columbus

            P.S. Our Divine Liturgy begins at 10:00 A.M. and usually ends at
            12:30 at the earliest, but we have three languages to worry about.
            (English, Church Slavonic, and Romanian, plus the obvious train
            wrecks caused by this practice. ;-) )
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... with Antiphons, where the former were previously sung, is motivated by a desire to shorten the service, the Antiphons did *not* originate as a device for
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
              Regarding:

              > While it may well be that replacing the Typical Psalms + Beatitudes
              with Antiphons, where the former were previously sung, is motivated by
              a desire to shorten the service, the Antiphons did *not* originate as a
              device for such shortening. Both of these alternatives are expansions
              of a single psalmodic chant later expanded to a set of three.

              JRS: An interesting thing I noticed in the Typicon of the Great Church
              (from around the year 1,000 AD) is that, on days when there was a
              procession to the church before Liturgy, the rubrics say "Antiphona ou
              ginontai, all'euthys to Trisagion" -- "Antiphons are not sung, but
              immediately the Trisagion".

              That means that on these days the procession replaced the 3 antiphons
              entirely, and the Divine Liturgy began with the "Holy God, Holy
              Mighty..."

              We can still see a trace of this on days when the Divine Liturgy begins
              with Vespers. Vespers continues through the reading of the Prophecies,
              and then there is a Little Litany, followed by the Trisagion and then
              the normal order of the Divine Liturgy follows.

              > > I would be very sad to attend a parish that had services that were
              > > only an hour an 1/2 long.

              JRS: It might be worth pointing out, that the length of time it takes
              to celebrate the Divine Liturgy does not necessarily reflect
              how "complete" or "abbreviated" it may be.

              When only one person is singing, even a very complete and "full"
              service can move along, at simes, so rapidly as to be inconvenient for
              the priest.

              On the other hand, with a larger number of singers, and especially if
              the *tempo* of the singing is ponderous -- even a very "abridged"
              service can move so slowly, that people will leave before the end.

              The optimal length for a service depends on the situation in a given
              parish.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • Cezar Login
              In the Chapel where I use to go on Sundays, we have Matins (abbreviated) for about 1 and half hour, and the Liturgy (completely, with NO abbreviation at all)
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
                In the Chapel where I use to go on Sundays, we have Matins (abbreviated) for
                about 1 and half hour, and the Liturgy (completely, with NO abbreviation at
                all) in about 1 hour and 15 minutes. And I might say that it's performed in
                a reasonably tempo. However, in our Cathedral, where the Liturgy is highly
                abbreviated, it takes more than 2 and half hours.



                It's a matter of singing.



                Cezar



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kyril Jenner
                ... From: sputnikpsalomschchika To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:53 PM Subject: [ustav] shortened
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "sputnikpsalomschchika" <malloy.2@...>
                  To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:53 PM
                  Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests prayers


                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, kyril@m... wrote:
                  > > > Message date : Sep 01 2004, 03:08 PM
                  > > In my church a ninety-minute Liturgy would mean LENGTHENING the
                  > service. As we currently do not leave anything out (we even SING
                  > all the troparia on the Beatitudes) this would be difficult to do
                  > (other than by making my sermons three times as long as they usually
                  > are).
                  > >
                  > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                  >
                  > WOW! Your choir must sing VERY FAST! Of course, you also probably
                  > only serve in one language too.
                  >

                  Our building is not too big. With a large and resonant building things
                  would go slower. We choose to follow the practice of churches inside
                  Russia (where, in the main, the singing (particularly the Litanies) is
                  brisk but not rushed). We use a mixture of English and Slavonic (the
                  Gospel is read in
                  both languages). Liturgy with short(ish) sermon and about 20-25
                  communicants takes 75-80 minutes (and that includes having the whole
                  anaphora dialogue aloud). Add in the Prayers of Thanksgiving (which are
                  read aloud after every Liturgy) and we are still under 90 minutes on a
                  normal Sunday.

                  Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                • sputnikpsalomschchika
                  ... We choose to follow the practice of churches inside ... Litanies) is brisk but not rushed). We use a mixture of English and Slavonic (the Gospel is read
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Kyril Jenner" <kyril@m...> wrote:
                    > ----- Original Message -----

                    We choose to follow the practice of churches inside
                    > Russia (where, in the main, the singing (particularly the
                    Litanies) is brisk but not rushed). We use a mixture of English
                    and Slavonic (the Gospel is read in both languages). Liturgy with
                    short(ish) sermon and about 20-25 communicants takes 75-80 minutes
                    (and that includes having the whole anaphora dialogue aloud). Add
                    in the Prayers of Thanksgiving (which are read aloud after every
                    Liturgy) and we are still under 90 minutes on a normal Sunday.
                    >
                    > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner

                    Your clocks must run differently. Or we lose a LOT more time than I
                    thought in litanies with everything repeated in all three languages,
                    plus the Creed in three languages. Our priest's sermons are about 20-
                    30 minutes long, but he likes to talk a lot at the end, in English
                    and Russian, before we are really finished - before we sing tropars
                    to St. John Chrysostom, St.'s of North America, Having Beheld the
                    Resurrection of Christ (in English and Church Slavonic), all while
                    the people come up for a blessing, THEN then Prayers of Thanksgiving
                    are read.

                    Reader Michael
                  • Kyril Jenner
                    ... From: sputnikpsalomschchika To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:15 PM Subject: [ustav] shortened
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "sputnikpsalomschchika" <malloy.2@...>
                      To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:15 PM
                      Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests prayers


                      >
                      > Your clocks must run differently. Or we lose a LOT more time than I
                      > thought in litanies with everything repeated in all three languages,
                      > plus the Creed in three languages.

                      We do not repeat things in the different languages other than the Gospel and
                      the Our Father. We hope in the near future to have the Epistle read in
                      Russian (not Church Slavonic) as well as English. A balance of languages
                      is preserved over the different Litanies (3-5 in Slavonic, the rest in
                      English, with variation in which is done in which langiuage week by week).
                      The choir may sing some other parts in Slavonic, dependent on the make up of
                      the congregation on a partiicular Sunday. Sermon is after the Gospel (the
                      historic place and also the specified place in the Liturgy text published by
                      our Archdioecese). I keep my sermons relatively short, possibly partly the
                      result of my original training in Mathematics, where conciseness is seen as
                      a great virtue.

                      Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                    • Kiril Bart
                      Epistle read in Russian (not Church Slavonic) ? Can I ask you what jurisdiction you do represent? Deacon Kirill ... _______________________________ Do you
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
                        "Epistle read in Russian (not Church Slavonic)"? Can I ask you what
                        jurisdiction you do represent?
                        Deacon Kirill

                        --- Kyril Jenner <kyril@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "sputnikpsalomschchika" <malloy.2@...>
                        > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:15 PM
                        > Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests
                        > prayers
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Your clocks must run differently. Or we lose a LOT more time than
                        > I
                        > > thought in litanies with everything repeated in all three
                        > languages,
                        > > plus the Creed in three languages.
                        >
                        > We do not repeat things in the different languages other than the
                        > Gospel and
                        > the Our Father. We hope in the near future to have the Epistle
                        > read in
                        > Russian (not Church Slavonic) as well as English. A balance of
                        > languages
                        > is preserved over the different Litanies (3-5 in Slavonic, the rest
                        > in
                        > English, with variation in which is done in which langiuage week by
                        > week).
                        > The choir may sing some other parts in Slavonic, dependent on the
                        > make up of
                        > the congregation on a partiicular Sunday. Sermon is after the
                        > Gospel (the
                        > historic place and also the specified place in the Liturgy text
                        > published by
                        > our Archdioecese). I keep my sermons relatively short, possibly
                        > partly the
                        > result of my original training in Mathematics, where conciseness is
                        > seen as
                        > a great virtue.
                        >
                        > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        _______________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                      • kyril@mynachdysantelias.fsnet.co.uk
                        I am under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain. My parish was originally Polish Orthodox, being founded by refugees from
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                          I am under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain. My parish was originally Polish Orthodox, being founded by refugees from World War 2. Having the Epistle read in Russian was normal there some 30 years ago, but lapsed through lack of competent readers.

                          The use of Russian was pragmatic and pastoral. There was no one in the parish (other than the Priest) who could read Church Slavonic script. The choir sang from memory or from transliterations into Polish script published for them during World War 2 by the Patriarchate of Alexandria for use in refugee camps in parts of Africa. The Priest then also worked on the premise that the language of the Epistles was too complex for the Church Slavonic to be comprehensible to the majority of his congregation. The language of the Gospels is much simpler, so that was less problematic.

                          The parish became for a time essentially an English language parish, but now has a growing number of Russians and other Eastern Europeans of recent immigration.

                          Archimandrite Kyril Jenner


                          > Message date : Sep 02 2004, 01:28 AM
                          > From : "Kiril Bart" <kirbart@...>
                          > To : ustav@yahoogroups.com
                          > Copy to :
                          > Subject : Re: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests prayers
                          >
                          > "Epistle read in Russian (not Church Slavonic)"? Can I ask you what
                          > jurisdiction you do represent?
                          > Deacon Kirill
                          >
                          > --- Kyril Jenner <kyril@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "sputnikpsalomschchika" <malloy.2@...>
                          > > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:15 PM
                          > > Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests
                          > > prayers
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Your clocks must run differently. Or we lose a LOT more time than
                          > > I
                          > > > thought in litanies with everything repeated in all three
                          > > languages,
                          > > > plus the Creed in three languages.
                          > >
                          > > We do not repeat things in the different languages other than the
                          > > Gospel and
                          > > the Our Father. We hope in the near future to have the Epistle
                          > > read in
                          > > Russian (not Church Slavonic) as well as English. A balance of
                          > > languages
                          > > is preserved over the different Litanies (3-5 in Slavonic, the rest
                          > > in
                          > > English, with variation in which is done in which langiuage week by
                          > > week).
                          > > The choir may sing some other parts in Slavonic, dependent on the
                          > > make up of
                          > > the congregation on a partiicular Sunday. Sermon is after the
                          > > Gospel (the
                          > > historic place and also the specified place in the Liturgy text
                          > > published by
                          > > our Archdioecese). I keep my sermons relatively short, possibly
                          > > partly the
                          > > result of my original training in Mathematics, where conciseness is
                          > > seen as
                          > > a great virtue.
                          > >
                          > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _______________________________
                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
                          > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                          >
                          > More ustav information and service texts:
                          > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                          > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          --

                          Whatever you Wanadoo:
                          http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/

                          This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                        • psomalis@hol.gr
                          During business trips in Serbia and FYROM I have heard both the Epistle and the Gospel read in the local vernacular language. I guess it is not that uncommon.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                            During business trips in Serbia and FYROM I have heard both the Epistle and the
                            Gospel read in the local vernacular language. I guess it is not that uncommon.
                            Panagiotis
                            Αρχικό μήνυμα από kyril@...:

                            >
                            > I am under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great
                            > Britain. My parish was originally Polish Orthodox, being founded by
                            > refugees from World War 2. Having the Epistle read in Russian was normal
                            > there some 30 years ago, but lapsed through lack of competent readers.
                            >
                            > The use of Russian was pragmatic and pastoral. There was no one in the
                            > parish (other than the Priest) who could read Church Slavonic script. The
                            > choir sang from memory or from transliterations into Polish script published
                            > for them during World War 2 by the Patriarchate of Alexandria for use in
                            > refugee camps in parts of Africa. The Priest then also worked on the
                            > premise that the language of the Epistles was too complex for the Church
                            > Slavonic to be comprehensible to the majority of his congregation. The
                            > language of the Gospels is much simpler, so that was less problematic.
                            >
                            > The parish became for a time essentially an English language parish, but now
                            > has a growing number of Russians and other Eastern Europeans of recent
                            > immigration.
                            >
                            > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                            >
                            >
                            > > Message date : Sep 02 2004, 01:28 AM
                            > > From : "Kiril Bart" <kirbart@...>
                            > > To : ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Copy to :
                            > > Subject : Re: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests
                            > prayers
                            > >
                            > > "Epistle read in Russian (not Church Slavonic)"? Can I ask you what
                            > > jurisdiction you do represent?
                            > > Deacon Kirill
                            > >
                            > > --- Kyril Jenner <kyril@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: "sputnikpsalomschchika" <malloy.2@...>
                            > > > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:15 PM
                            > > > Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests
                            > > > prayers
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Your clocks must run differently. Or we lose a LOT more time than
                            > > > I
                            > > > > thought in litanies with everything repeated in all three
                            > > > languages,
                            > > > > plus the Creed in three languages.
                            > > >
                            > > > We do not repeat things in the different languages other than the
                            > > > Gospel and
                            > > > the Our Father. We hope in the near future to have the Epistle
                            > > > read in
                            > > > Russian (not Church Slavonic) as well as English. A balance of
                            > > > languages
                            > > > is preserved over the different Litanies (3-5 in Slavonic, the rest
                            > > > in
                            > > > English, with variation in which is done in which langiuage week by
                            > > > week).
                            > > > The choir may sing some other parts in Slavonic, dependent on the
                            > > > make up of
                            > > > the congregation on a partiicular Sunday. Sermon is after the
                            > > > Gospel (the
                            > > > historic place and also the specified place in the Liturgy text
                            > > > published by
                            > > > our Archdioecese). I keep my sermons relatively short, possibly
                            > > > partly the
                            > > > result of my original training in Mathematics, where conciseness is
                            > > > seen as
                            > > > a great virtue.
                            > > >
                            > > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > _______________________________
                            > > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
                            > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                            > >
                            > > More ustav information and service texts:
                            > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                            > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                            > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                            >
                            > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                            > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                            >
                            > More ustav information and service texts:
                            > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                            > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Sergius Miller
                            ... Dear Panagiotis, Our protodeacon is Serbian and has shown us recently published Serbian liturgical books in the Serbian language that are now beginning to
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, psomalis@h... wrote:

                              Dear Panagiotis,

                              Our protodeacon is Serbian and has shown us recently published
                              Serbian liturgical books in the Serbian language that are now
                              beginning to come into use in Serbia. Apparently some of the
                              translation has been done by His Holiness Pavle himself.

                              In XC,
                              Sergius



                              > During business trips in Serbia and FYROM I have heard both the
                              Epistle and the
                              > Gospel read in the local vernacular language. I guess it is not
                              that uncommon.
                              > Panagiotis
                              > Áñ÷éêü ìÞíõìá áðü kyril@m...:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > I am under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Archdiocese of Thyateira
                              and Great
                              > > Britain. My parish was originally Polish Orthodox, being
                              founded by
                              > > refugees from World War 2. Having the Epistle read in Russian
                              was normal
                              > > there some 30 years ago, but lapsed through lack of competent
                              readers.
                              > >
                              > > The use of Russian was pragmatic and pastoral. There was no
                              one in the
                              > > parish (other than the Priest) who could read Church Slavonic
                              script. The
                              > > choir sang from memory or from transliterations into Polish
                              script published
                              > > for them during World War 2 by the Patriarchate of Alexandria for
                              use in
                              > > refugee camps in parts of Africa. The Priest then also worked
                              on the
                              > > premise that the language of the Epistles was too complex for the
                              Church
                              > > Slavonic to be comprehensible to the majority of his
                              congregation. The
                              > > language of the Gospels is much simpler, so that was less
                              problematic.
                              > >
                              > > The parish became for a time essentially an English language
                              parish, but now
                              > > has a growing number of Russians and other Eastern Europeans of
                              recent
                              > > immigration.
                              > >
                              > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > Message date : Sep 02 2004, 01:28 AM
                              > > > From : "Kiril Bart" <kirbart@y...>
                              > > > To : ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Copy to :
                              > > > Subject : Re: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive:
                              Priests
                              > > prayers
                              > > >
                              > > > "Epistle read in Russian (not Church Slavonic)"? Can I ask you
                              what
                              > > > jurisdiction you do represent?
                              > > > Deacon Kirill
                              > > >
                              > > > --- Kyril Jenner <kyril@m...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > From: "sputnikpsalomschchika" <malloy.2@o...>
                              > > > > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:15 PM
                              > > > > Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive:
                              Priests
                              > > > > prayers
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Your clocks must run differently. Or we lose a LOT more
                              time than
                              > > > > I
                              > > > > > thought in litanies with everything repeated in all three
                              > > > > languages,
                              > > > > > plus the Creed in three languages.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > We do not repeat things in the different languages other than
                              the
                              > > > > Gospel and
                              > > > > the Our Father. We hope in the near future to have the
                              Epistle
                              > > > > read in
                              > > > > Russian (not Church Slavonic) as well as English. A balance
                              of
                              > > > > languages
                              > > > > is preserved over the different Litanies (3-5 in Slavonic,
                              the rest
                              > > > > in
                              > > > > English, with variation in which is done in which langiuage
                              week by
                              > > > > week).
                              > > > > The choir may sing some other parts in Slavonic, dependent on
                              the
                              > > > > make up of
                              > > > > the congregation on a partiicular Sunday. Sermon is after
                              the
                              > > > > Gospel (the
                              > > > > historic place and also the specified place in the Liturgy
                              text
                              > > > > published by
                              > > > > our Archdioecese). I keep my sermons relatively short,
                              possibly
                              > > > > partly the
                              > > > > result of my original training in Mathematics, where
                              conciseness is
                              > > > > seen as
                              > > > > a great virtue.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > _______________________________
                              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
                              > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                              > > >
                              > > > More ustav information and service texts:
                              > > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                              > > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > >
                              > > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                              > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                              > >
                              > > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out
                              more at:
                              > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                              > >
                              > > More ustav information and service texts:
                              > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                              > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                            • Fr. John R. Shaw
                              ... JRS: Our chanter, who is also Serbian, tells me that the Patriarch himself actually prefers to serve in Church Slavonic (he celebrates the Liturgy every
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                                Sergius Miller wrote:

                                > Our protodeacon is Serbian and has shown us recently published
                                > Serbian liturgical books in the Serbian language that are now
                                > beginning to come into use in Serbia. Apparently some of the
                                > translation has been done by His Holiness Pavle himself.

                                JRS: Our chanter, who is also Serbian, tells me that the Patriarch
                                himself actually prefers to serve in Church Slavonic (he celebrates the
                                Liturgy every morning).

                                In Christ
                                Fr. John R. Shaw
                              • Peter Fekula
                                Dear Stephen: When did the intercalation of troparia into the Beatitudes arise? Thanks in advance. Peter Fekula On Wednesday, September 1, 2004 9:59 AM,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                                  Dear Stephen:

                                  When did the intercalation of troparia into the Beatitudes arise? Thanks in advance.

                                  Peter Fekula


                                  On Wednesday, September 1, 2004 9:59 AM, stephen_r1937 wrote:

                                  ...The intercalation of troparia into the Beatitudes is relatively late and also of monastic origin....

                                  And

                                  ... the only shortening of them that I have encountered in Russian usage is omission of the troparia (which again may be a survival from the days before troparia were introduced)....
                                • psaltisuk
                                  ... the ... ****While I saw bilingual (and monolingual Serbian) books on sale in Serbia, my experience is that services are celebrated always in Slavonic with
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                    > Sergius Miller wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Our protodeacon is Serbian and has shown us recently published
                                    > > Serbian liturgical books in the Serbian language that are now
                                    > > beginning to come into use in Serbia. Apparently some of the
                                    > > translation has been done by His Holiness Pavle himself.
                                    >
                                    > JRS: Our chanter, who is also Serbian, tells me that the Patriarch
                                    > himself actually prefers to serve in Church Slavonic (he celebrates
                                    the
                                    > Liturgy every morning).
                                    >
                                    > In Christ
                                    > Fr. John R. Shaw


                                    ****While I saw bilingual (and monolingual Serbian) books on sale in
                                    Serbia, my experience is that services are celebrated always in
                                    Slavonic with the exception of the readings, which are given in
                                    Serbian, though I was informed that in parish use modern Serbian
                                    might well be used more. Bulgaria has already gone further akong
                                    this road: there are parishes using modern Bulgarian and a large
                                    number of liturgical books and music books in that language. In
                                    monasteries, larger parishes and cathedrals, however, the language is
                                    Slavonic.

                                    In Christ,

                                    Ivan
                                  • archimandritekyril
                                    ... In the Serbian Church in Birmingham, UK, they do some of the Litanies in Serbian (and some in English) as well as having the readings of the Epistle and
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "psaltisuk" <ivanmoody@u...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > ****While I saw bilingual (and monolingual Serbian) books on sale in
                                      > Serbia, my experience is that services are celebrated always in
                                      > Slavonic with the exception of the readings, which are given in
                                      > Serbian, though I was informed that in parish use modern Serbian
                                      > might well be used more. Bulgaria has already gone further akong
                                      > this road: there are parishes using modern Bulgarian and a large
                                      > number of liturgical books and music books in that language. In
                                      > monasteries, larger parishes and cathedrals, however, the language is
                                      > Slavonic.
                                      >
                                      > In Christ,
                                      >
                                      > Ivan

                                      In the Serbian Church in Birmingham, UK, they do some of the Litanies
                                      in Serbian (and some in English) as well as having the readings of the
                                      Epistle and Gospel in both Serbian and English. The rest is in
                                      Slavonic - probably no more than half the service on a Sunday morning.
                                      The amount of Serbian and English used there has increased over the
                                      years during which I have visited the church.

                                      Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
                                    • Isaac E. Lambertsen
                                      Dear List, The use of literary Serbian in the divine services was apparently spearheaded by St. Justin (Popovich), the well-known theologian, who circulated
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                                        Dear List,

                                        The use of literary Serbian in the divine services was apparently
                                        spearheaded by St. Justin (Popovich), the well-known theologian, who
                                        circulated his own translation of the Liturgy back in the '70s, or even
                                        earlier.

                                        I noticed during a recent pilgrimage to Serbia and Kosovo that even very
                                        traditional monasteries and parishes had many Serbian-language liturgical
                                        books on their kliroses, in addition to Church Slavonic ones. (This is the
                                        sort of thing I would notice.)

                                        Also, last year I composed a service (in Engish) to St. Vladislav, King of
                                        Serbia. It was received enthusiastically by the Church of Serbia, and a
                                        team of translators, including clergy attached to the Patriarchate in
                                        Belgrade, monastics at Sopochani Monastery, and clergy and laity here in the
                                        U.S., cooperated to produce a translation into good literary Serbian. It's
                                        no end gratifying that my feeble efforts are accorded such attention!

                                        Sincerely,

                                        Isaac Lambertsen
                                      • stephen_r1937
                                        ... If memory serves, they appear first in the Evergetis Typikon of the twelfth century; the earlier usage was that Remember us, O Lord, when thou comest in
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 3, 2004
                                          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fekula <pfekula@m...> wrote:
                                          > Dear Stephen:
                                          >
                                          > When did the intercalation of troparia into the Beatitudes arise? Thanks in advance.
                                          >
                                          > Peter Fekula
                                          >
                                          If memory serves, they appear first in the Evergetis Typikon of the twelfth century; the earlier usage was that "Remember us, O Lord, when thou comest in thy kingdom," (Codex Sinaiticus 863, ninth century).

                                          Stephen
                                        • Alban Mosher
                                          I remember about 10-15 years ago taking part in a midnight liturgy at St. John the Russian in Ipswich, MA. We did everything and did not skip anything. from
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 3, 2004
                                            I remember about 10-15 years ago taking part in a midnight liturgy at St.
                                            John the Russian in Ipswich, MA. We did everything and did not skip
                                            anything. from 'Blessed is the kingdom...' to the dismissal was under one
                                            hour. There was a congregation of about 6 and 2 of us were chanting. Our
                                            lead chanter was doing what he normally does and I was singing the ison. We
                                            also did a mix of Kievan church music and Byzantine chant in English

                                            Alban

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: sputnikpsalomschchika [mailto:malloy.2@...]
                                            Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:53 AM
                                            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [ustav] shortened services // Re: Very sensitive: Priests prayers

                                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, kyril@m... wrote:
                                            > > Message date : Sep 01 2004, 03:08 PM
                                            > In my church a ninety-minute Liturgy would mean LENGTHENING the
                                            service. As we currently do not leave anything out (we even SING
                                            all the troparia on the Beatitudes) this would be difficult to do (other
                                            than by making my sermons three times as long as they usually are).
                                            >
                                            > Archimandrite Kyril Jenner

                                            WOW! Your choir must sing VERY FAST! Of course, you also probably only serve
                                            in one language too.

                                            Reader Michael Malloy
                                            Columbus

                                            P.S. Our Divine Liturgy begins at 10:00 A.M. and usually ends at 12:30 at
                                            the earliest, but we have three languages to worry about.
                                            (English, Church Slavonic, and Romanian, plus the obvious train wrecks
                                            caused by this practice. ;-) )



                                            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
                                            a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
                                            Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
                                            http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/lgJolB/TM
                                            --------------------------------------------------------------------~->


                                            Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com CONTACT LIST OWNER:
                                            ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com URL to archives:
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav

                                            More ustav information and service texts:
                                            http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                                            http://www.orthodox.net/services

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links








                                            <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=809&lang=9>


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.